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China's timber use ravages forests

Started by Larry, March 08, 2005, 06:43:46 PM

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Larry

Heard Paul Harvey rambling on today about China and wood.  Didn't pay much attention...got a email with this link little while ago. 

http://www.freep.com/money/business/timber7e_20050307.htm

Not smart nuff to have much of an opinion here.  Always amazes me we can fill a container with Missouri walnut...float it to China and buy it back for 100 times the money.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

farmerdoug

Another thing is China is complaining about all of the old computers and electronics being sent to their country for recycling.  They say it is just being dumped on them and they will not stand for it.  :P I figure that they are buying it(or it would not be sent there) so how can it be being dumpd there.  Also most of the junk was probably made there to begin with. ;D Maybe if they paid their people a more reasonable wage they would not have this problem that their industry is causing.
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

SwampDonkey

It's an interesting article, but I would suggest it's the responsibility of the counties exporting the wood to ensure it's from legal sources. Putting the blame on the importing country is backward thinking, in my opinion. China or any other country that imports the logs doesn't make policy for the countries of origin. Sorry.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jrdwyer

More information has been hitting the press lately about illegal timber trafficking.  Here is one I read that accuses BlueLinx (formally GP distribution) of selling wood products sourced from known corrupt sources:

http://www.woodbusinessportal.com/en/news/news.php

I don't necessarily agree with everything various environmental groups say, but I give them credit for bringing issues to light and allowing all of us to be more informed about what's going on in the world.

Given the corrupt nature of business in many parts of the world combined with the low ethical standards of many multi-national corporations, it is ultimately up to the Consumer to find out for themsleves about the products they buy or plan to buy.

woodchopper

I would have to agree that control of the rainforest woods is a responsibility of the countries accepting the logs or product... 
Having spent several years doing bid work for municipal/government entities I found many of them that would NOT accept any wooden floor trailers or wooden floor vans that used any rainforest woods... many of the municipal and state government agencies have adopted this practice.
It is a shame that the ultimate user (the public) does not see it as a problem...  Once the rainforests are gone -  the world will not be a better place.
We don't get older -  we just get better!

Ron Wenrich

Interesting article.  LaZ-Boy was so outraged by China's policy that it shut the door on several factories and moved them to China (something not stated in the article).

I remember a discussion we had on another forum with a park ranger from Java.  He wanted to know about spiking trees with ceramic spikes.  He wanted something that would cause damage and not be detected by metal detectors.

The problem was thieves would cut some really nice trees in the national parks.  They had guards, but they were often bribed.  They would go in, cut a few trees and be gone within a few hours.  Sometimes they would cut trees in areas only accessible by boat.  They would cut the trees closest to the water and use the boat to skid them out.  Ceramic spikes were deemed the best solution, and no one could come up with anything better.

I also had a guy who wanted me to cruise 500,000 acres in Africa from the air and give him a value.  I told him that I couldn't even tell him what type of trees they were, let alone value.

Next question was could it be logged in 3 months.  I told him that he could put a sawmill on that and have a self sustaining business.

Not interested.  He represented a group of bankers.  What they did was buy up property and gut the resources, then move on.  Fascinating phone call.

China's appetite for wood is going to devastate a lot of forests.  Before them, it was Japan that was doing the damage.  A lot of the world still cooks with wood.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

crtreedude

It is interesting. India pretty much destroyed it's forest - now they come to Costa Rica for teak. Of course they can't pay hardly anything so they just buy the poor stuff.

Used to a poor home in Costa Rica was made of wood - now it is a sign of wealth because wood is getting so expensive.

According to MINAE - Costa Rica will start having to import wood in 5 years - I wonder from where?

Fred
So, how did I end up here anyway?

jjmk98k

Sad to read that but I noticed on my last trip to camp, a lot more logging has been going on since the lumber market is hot!

DanG Chinese are buying all the oil and wood   ::)

I try and buy american anytime I can since I grew up in a depressed steel region near Pittsburgh..... I saw what foreign steel can do to a once VERY proud area. 

Guess wood is next.... but the people here are not suffering, They are making money on the high priced lumber..... and cheap furniture

nature is the one that is suffering!

Jim

Warminster PA, not quite hell, but it is a local phone call. SUPPORT THE TROOPS!

Cedarman

I think most of us have that tinge of disappointment in seeing a woods logged and all those big magnificent trees gone.  But if the logging has been done according to best management practices, then the young trees will head to the sky and a new woods will be there.  We need to educate as many people as possible that trees are renewable resources and we should manage the land as wisely as possible.  If China pays the highest prices, why shouldn't we sell our logs to China.  By making timber more valuable, we will grow more of.  When timber was cheap we wasted a tremendous amount of it.  I for one am for high timber prices.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

SwampDonkey

I'de like higher timber prices also, and especially on certified sources. But the buyers don't see it that way. Also, the mills have dropped prices here and lowered the cutting rates they pay contractors. If you factor in inflation the timber is worth less than it was 15 years ago.  Sounds like farming to me. >:(

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

Here's a link for forest product imports to China. 

http://www.cifor.cgiar.org/publications/pdf_files/others/White-04-Forest-trends-China-IMport%20trends.pdf

You would be surprised at how little the US actually makes up of their import markets.  Logs come from Russia and Indonesia, wood chips come from Austrailia, lumber from US and Malaysia, with Russia starting to come on.  Surprising that Germany exports logs to China.  The figures go to 2002.

Look over the charts and you'll see some trends.  China is importing less plywood, but more logs.  They also started to import wood chips.  I would figure a lowering of paper imports.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

old3dogg

Its good to see that more and more people are starting to see how bad china is gutting the USA.
Its "cheap" alright.I just pray that something changes soon before its to late.
After 18 years as a kiln operator I had to find a new job thanks to everyone importing wood to china.
Keep importing!Wont be long and you will be looking for a new job too!
Sorry!But supporting slave labour and cheap products so only a very few can live well leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

SwampDonkey

I'd like to say I don't buy wood products from China, but I think I have a couple shelving units that may have been from China, although I do know that not long ago I could get them from Canadian sources. I don't have the boxes any more so I can't varify the source.  :-\ 99.999% of what's in this house is Canadian made or from USA. Even have a silverware chest made from white ash from Pennsylvania. :)

I'm not sure China can be blamed for anything any more than I would blame my government for selling us out to other nations as well. It's been happening in Canada long before China came into the picture.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

old3dogg

A few beers later.
I guess we shouldnt be "exporting" so much wood to china.
Gee!I get  wound up so tight sometimes I cant type as fast as my mind wants me to.
I wish I could buy more products made in Canada! I would be glad to. I have a sister living in Ajax.
I went up to see her last fall and fell in love with the place.My only complaint is that the beer cost to much!I always thought beer was cheap in Canada.

It just doesnt make sense to me how we can send low grade lumber to china, they can dry it ,cut it up into little pieces, glue it all back together and send it back here cheaper than we can process it here!?
I dont get it.All it boils down to greed and slave labour.Doesnt anyone care about quality anymore?Is the bottom line for a select few all we care about?
Its just sad to see how fast they are steeling our jobs and our way of life.
Well........time fof another beer. [Made in Pittsburgh PA by the way ;D]

Ron Wenrich

Must be drinking IC.  I think they're owned by LaBatts.  You should be drinking Yuengling, another good PA beer.

I would think if China is importing lumber, it would be kiln dried.  Spoilage would be too high. 

I haven't run into anyone selling anything to China.  Europe and Canada seems to be more of an export destination.  Was your shop shut down due to the Chinese buying lumber or was it something else?

One thing I would like to see is China fumigating their pallets and dunnage.  Too many foreign bugs coming in on their pallets.  Better yet, buy American pallets to send products back.

A big problem is that people don't know what they're buying.  I went to a store that was moving and having a big sale.  We saw a pretty nice piece of furniture but I couldn't recognize the type of wood.  Salesman asked the owner and he says walnut.

I looked at the back and saw a "Made in China" stamp.  I decided to go down to another furniture store that sells furniture made by local craftsmen.  It was cheaper and better made.  Most people would have taken the owners word on the walnut and thought it was a better piece of furniture. 

Walmart is China's fifth largest trading partner. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jjmk98k

Yuengling, that tastes as bad as gofer pee. IC is a little better, but give me a ICE COLD STRAUB anyday.

I pick my up at the brewery in St Marys, $14 a case in bottles and as fresh as could be.

there sure are a lot of PA folk in here  8)

As far as wood pallets, my mom who works for a steel mill north of Pittsburgh, says all the steel marked for export must be shipped on pallets made of hardwoods...... that China and other will not accept anything else

I'd be willing to bet those pallets are made into little toys and other junk.
Jim

Warminster PA, not quite hell, but it is a local phone call. SUPPORT THE TROOPS!

redpowerd

QuoteI'd be willing to bet those pallets are made into little toys and other junk

then sold back over here :D :D :D
NO FARMERS -- NO FOOD
northern adirondak yankee farmer

Tom

Here is one of several like articles on China's research into trees and forests.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0310/p14s02-sten.html

jrdwyer

Mutant trees, great. They are definitely playing with fire if they start releasing without considering all the ecological implications.  Add that to the exotic pests coming in now on Christmas trees, pallets, etc. and you have a messed up forest in the making.

I hope the message spreads about what's going on in the tropical forests. They can manage their resource and harvest responsibly instead of what's going on now.  And maybe some consumers enamored with Rosewood or Merbau will have a change of heart and come back to domestic hardwoods. If nothing else, at least oak or ash isn't stolen merchandise.

I learned in 1998 that you have to ask first about furniture. We bought a kitchen table and chairs at a chain called Oak Express.  I looked at it and knew the top was red oak veneer and the legs were also oak. Same for the chairs. I assumed it was made in the USA. Wrong! The fine print on the box I opened said made in China. The chairs at least said assembled in USA. Upon closer inspection, the bottom of the chair is stamped made in Slovenia. So the chairs were assembled here from European oak parts!

The last piece of wood furniture we bought in 2003 was made in Lewisburg, PA. A beautiful cherry sideboard from Penn House. I read they shut that plant down late last year. If this keeps up the only furniture locally made will be Amish or custom.

old3dogg

When I started working for BWP back in 86 I was 21 and just married.Also had my first child on the way. They started me out running the boiler and clean up crew.I started at$3.50 per hour.Back then they had about 50 people working there.
To make a long story short I worked my way into the vac kiln depatment.At that time the vac kilns were producing about 25% rejects!They got rid of the guy in charge of the kilns and told me I was the man,heres a huge raise, make them work.In a month I had the rejects down to 5%. My vac kiln department dried 3million BFT of solid hard wood squares a year.We would ship 30 truck loads of squares down south every month.I had a 25 man crew working 3 shifts 7 days a week.I loved evey minute of it.I had a job that very few people could do.
Then our accounts started to go away.All of the plants that we sold to were closing down.Everytime a plant closed it was do to the same thing.We cant compete with the cheap products coming from china.
When I left BWP I had a 2 man crew and was lucky to have 1 or 2 vac kilns running.I was back to sweeping floors and building pallets.It was time to get out!
BWP doesnt ship green lumber to china Im told.They ship the whole darn log!
Shooting themselves in the foot so to speak.So I guess I cant blame china for taking my job.I can see that bad mangament may also have a thing or two to do with it.I wish them well.With all of this wet weather I bet that they wish they had some of those logs to saw!
Now on to the beer.Yep! Its IC light.Not bad beer.
jjmk98k,
Straub is one of my accounts now.I go in there once a month to test thier boilers and cool tower.Nice clean place and Tom Straub is one heck of a nice guy!I like the beer.Now that I know that it is only $14 bucks a case I may have to switch brands again!Have you ever sampled the endless tap? If Im testing the water I also have to make sure the beer is good to right?
I have to go to work now.
Mike.

crtreedude

Unfortunately, the harsh reality is that the vast majority of the world lives much cheaper than we do in the USA.  Part of our standard of living is supported by cheap labor overseas. We make money on the high end, and buy on the low end.

For example: Here in Costa Rica, I can have a forestry engineer for about $1,000 dollars a month, including benefits (healthcare, retirement, disability - vacation, etc.) I doubt most of you could live on that. A forestry engineer here has 5 years of college.

A farm / plantation worker is under $200 per month.  A wood worker / craftsman is about $400 per month - contract labor.

These are not subsistence wages - except for the farm worker - but with free health care and pensions - it ain't all bad.

The toys and gadgets that we think we need in the USA are much rarer - but they people are happy without them, perhaps happier.

By the way - the satisfaction level (people who think that they are doing just fine) in Costa Rica is higher than in the USA.  We are not bombarded with commercials day in day out telling us our life is not complete without a new  Lincoln Navigator....

The USA is an economic powerhouse but it won't last forever. The people in other countries are becoming often more educated than we are in the USA. I am often amazed on how knowledgable the people are here - and how willing to try and make a better life for themselves. The education system in USA is barely adequate - Costa Rica does just as well and they are a third world nation.

The markets are turning global and the barriers are dropping to trade. If we start telling China, Tawain, Costa Rica, Mexico, etc. we don't want their stuff - they will say that they don't want OURS either.  There are other countries to buy things from - and often at a much cheaper price.

I was just thinking this morning on how much the world has changed in the last 10 years. I am sitting here in Costa Rica typing a message to many of you in USA - and some in other countries as well. From my website I receive emails all the time from all over the world.

People move to the USA leaving family and friends for a better life - but now they are starting to be able to do it in their home country.  This is not bad.  My advice, for what it is worth, is don't try to do work that can be done in other countries cheaper - shipping is just not that expensive. I can ship a 20' container of just about anything to the USA for $1,500.

The same mindset that has caused so many forest to be nearly ruined by high-grading is causing the current situation - get your money while you can, and who cares about tomorrow. As a good friend of mine said once, "We have been eating the seed corn, eventually there will be no corn." It seems to me that instead of the USA storing up during the boom years, people are digging themselves incredibly deep holes in debt, I guess thinking they will always make a lot of money.

No matter what the John Kerrys and George Bushes of the world want to tell you - there is no stopping the globalization of the economy. And, you are no longer competing with the guy next door - but the Tico in Costa Rica, along with many other places.

By the way, it was recently in the news here that Costa Rica is upset that they are losing jobs in the clothing sector to India and China....

So, how did I end up here anyway?

jrdwyer

One of the big problems I am observing lately in my state and nationwide, for that matter, is the lack of revenue in the govt. coffers. Many factories have closed in Indiana and the total number of jobs available is less than it once was. Also, the pay and benefits for service jobs with comparable education and training levels is lower than for factory jobs. 

This dilemma forces on us the tough decisions of paring our schools and roads and infastructure down, or continual local property tax increase to pay for it all. Our federal govt. just igonres this reality and borrows to the hilt.

So buying that cheaper Russian oak flooring from China or wherever saves the individual some money but dosen't necessarily help the state or national community. I suppose if we think globally, that purchase might be somewhat positive (except for the non-sustainable timber harvesting and possible theft issue). It's hard to think globally though when you read about proposed cuts in Medicaid for the handicapped in your community.


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