Past harvesting date?

[jph]

The plantation we are about  to buy planted in1957 with larch and norway spruce has suffered from a lack of thinning over the years. Trees are 85ft to 90 ft tall and are mainly in the range 10 to 15 inch dbh. 800-1000 stems per hectare.  Access is very poor, so the big boys with their harvesting machines were not interested. We plan to cut and mill ourselves, to start with mainly  for our own  use putting up buildings.  As the trees are so closely spaced, what is likely to happen, will they continue to add to their diameter or will they just get taller? Will windthrow become an increasing problem?
What other problems may we encounter if we don't   harvest it the next few years?

[Timburr]

John

As your trees are 48 y old and 85'-90', it would suggest your wood is in a sheltered valley site? Wind stunts tree growth.Assessment of windthrow hazard is determined by 4 factors-
     1  wind zone- Wales is classified as D or E depending on location on wind zone map.
     2  elevation- height above sea level (metres).
     3  exposure topex- assessed degree of exposure influenced by topographical features.
     4  soil type- stabilizing effect and root development.
If you can give me some reference to the above I can work out the 'windthrow hazard class for you. This seems to be your main concern. Have you any windthrow now?
You may have many windthrow free years left. I dont know without educated detail.

Norway spruce is wind weak, larch is moderately wind firm.

The trees will continue to increase girth albeit slowly. For efficient diameter increase the live canopy needs to be at least a third of its height.

Other than possible windthrow, I don't invisage any other problems except flood, fire, disease, earthquake, vandalism, volcano, vapourisation and the LESSER SPOTTED CRICKLEFINNER. :D :D ;D

Good luck with your venture.
Tim
't see

[Timburr]

P.S

John

Have you sought advise from The Forestry Commission?

Tim

[Phorester]

In a general sense, such a thick forest is growing at a slow rate.  This means it is stressed already from overcrowding.  This will make it more suceptible to a succesful invasion by insects and diseases.

But, it may have reached a point where it is too late to thin.  These trees may have been suppressed for so long that they might not respond to thinning with increased growth rates.  When that occurs in my area, I recommend the landowner clreacut and start over with a new forest.

Timburr is on the right track.  You need the advice of a local professional forester familiar with your tree species, soil types, growth habits. 

[jph]

Thanks for the replys. Yes the site is quite sheltered on the side of a river valley.  It is over two months since our bid was accepted by the Forestry Commission, the solicitors have still to sort out the access to the woods so we still don't own them. We knew that access was going to be difficult as the track crosses a ford and then goes across a farmers field.This was reflected in the price and we did not see it as a major problem as we plan to harvest slowly over the years and mill on site.
We have spoken to a Forestry Consultant who was very helpful but I felt he was more used to dealing with large commercial estates who would just get  big machines in and clear fell. We hope to clear slowly and replant with hardwoods.
No windthrow at present.

[Timburr]

John
We are in a similar situation to you. We have a steep Welsh valley, F.C. planted conifer woodland and we mill on site. Our access is good as there is a tarmac road through the middle. Bad...we can't fell across the road.. it makes our felling strategy more difficult. :(

Are your plans to clearfell small coupes or to thin? I would advise against thinning the norway except for the smallest poles. At present they are benefiting from mutual support and if thinned drastically you may have endemic windthrow because of their height and small bole.  Bigger boles have bigger roots and thus better anchorage.
The larch will benefit from thinning even though you are decades too late. It is moderately wind firm and very much a 'light demander'. But it will take 3 or 4 years to respond fully and then there is no stopping it.
Larch, in normal circumstances, needs to be thinned little and often, with special care to not damage it's neighbours.

Good idea of yours to replant with more profitable hardwoods. We have been left with the legacy of F.C. planted, quick growing conifers to cater for the depletion of timber resourse amassed during the 18th +19 th centuries. But even  the Commission have come around to planting more broadleaves to aesthetically fit in with our landscapes and amenity values.

John, this will be a huge learning curve for you. Read and learn what you can. Enjoy the journey


Phorester
I am following you around or you are following me around. :D
You extended what I was going to say in my previous post to jph. Good points

[jph]

We are actually buying 2 plots of woodland close to each other just above theBrecon Beacons. The smaller woodland is a mixture of hard and softwood and is a delightful spot with stream in deep ravine even a small waterfall. The larger is a conifer plantaion with spruce and larch. Both are ex FC and untouched for many years.
Our plans are to clear the rides and make access easier this year and then tackle a couple of acres a year felling and replanting mainly oak and ash. I like the idea of using a conifer nurse and then selling some for Christmas trees. A good tree was selling round here in South East  for £15 to £20 last Christmas.
I would like to do as much   of the work myself, I have  used chainsaws for the last 30 years and had a chainsaw mill since 1987. How difficult is it to learn to fell  tall  conifers , any suggestions on a good way to learn. A course at the local agricultural college doesn't seem the best way. I have felled  some big old dead elms but it was always obvious which way they wanted to fall.
John

[Timburr]

John
A lot of folks will envy you and it will give you that silent proudness inside. Good init! ;D

When felling tall conifers, the paramount objective is safety. This should be on your mind at all times. Each tree is a potential death trap. No complacency allowed.
Although felling conifers is second nature to me I will not teach you on this forum. I would advise you to take a local tree felling course and be taught by a professional. They will be better equiped to teach you the pros and cons. There are plenty about. You may possibly organise with them to teach a group of trainees on your site,cutting your trees,thus eliminating your fee to them.
Take your time to learm and don't rush into it like a bull at a gate. We only have one chance at life.
This forum has some brilliant advise on the matter, albeit deep in the archives.

You seem to have it all worked out. ;)    Good luck and above all stay safe

Tim

[Phorester]

For us in the USA, you need to explain a couple things.  (Please don't take these questions the wrong way.  I'm asking for information and to be educated,  not to suggest criticism.)

You are buying from the Forestry Commission on bids.  Are you actually buying land and timber, or just the timber?  Is this Commission a government agency? (In the USA, government agencies rarely sell land.) 

You have come up with some very specific cultural practices to implement.  How did you reach these decisions?  Are you a professional forester yourself, or did you seek help from one?  Or did the Forestry commission ask for bids on these specific projects that they had already decided on?  Thanks....

[jph]

Phorester, thanks for showing an interest. I have just typed in a long reply, pressed the wrong button and lost the lot. >:( >:(
The Forestry Commission over here in the UK is a goverment agency,   In the 1950's it purchased as much land as it could and planted conifer plantations in order to replenish the timber used during the two World Wars. Much of the land was in small plots with poor access. I think they soon realised that these plots were going to be un economic and no thinning took place, they are now selling of some of these woodlands, two of which we are in the process of buying.
The Commision also issues grants for replanting, there is a new scheme starting this year called  Better Woodlands for Wales. The grant helps with the cost of employing a Forester to draw up  a ten year (it may be 5 )plan. To  get the maximum grant there are strict criteria one has to follow in the way of what to plant, stocking density, using locally sourced plants etc. I hope this answers your questions, so yes we have a Forester lined up to draw up our plan as soon as the purchase is completed.  The Forestry Commission has an excellent website at www.forestry.gov.uk
John

[Phorester]

It sounds like that you have come up with specific cultural forestry practices to implement before you have a Forester draw up a management plan? 

[Timburr]

John

Although felling conifers is second nature to me I will not teach you on this forum. I would advise you to take a local tree felling course and be taught by a professional. They will be better equiped to teach you the pros and cons.

Does it look like I've snubbed you? The reason being, unqualified training involving H.S.E. issues is a sensitive matter, but if you still want hands on knowledge there is an email on it's way.

Our plans are to clear the rides and make access easier this year and then tackle a couple of acres a year felling and replanting mainly oak and ash.

Is ash already growing well locally? The reason, I ask, is ash is very site sensitive, although there are pockets of limestone around the Beacons. It likes an alkaline soil.
Tim 

[jph]

Timburr
I look forward to your email.   Ash seems to thrive, with many self sown seedlings on the woodland edge.


Phorester
I can assure you that this is not some specific cultural forestry practice that I have dreamt up. It is the prefered way of dealing with what is known over here as a PAWS. (plantation on an ancient woodland site )

[jph]

Here is a map of one of the woods.

The purchase is held up  as the solicitors can't find anything in writing that gives us a right of way over the track to gain access to the wood. It is almost certainly an old Drover's road so we think it will get sorted out.

[Phorester]

"I can assure you that this is not some specific cultural forestry practice that I have dreamt up. It is the prefered way of dealing with what is known over here as a PAWS. (plantation on an ancient woodland site )"

Maybe your sites there are very consistient from one to another.  I am used to working with forested properties that are different from each other.  Even properties side-by-side are usually unique in tree species present, ages, growth rates, health, commercial quality, and sometimes even soil types.  Makes a generic set of management practices unrealistic.

I'd still like to know.... what is a "ride"?

[Timburr]

I'd still like to know.... what is a "ride"?

A 'ride' is British colloquial for a forest track or access route, either metalled (stoned) or dirt. In an un managed wood they are often overgrown with regeneration.

I'll let jph answer the rest of your debate, its his post and it's only fair

[Phorester]

Thanks, Timburr.  What I thought about rides, but wanted to be sure.

And jph, I'm not critizing your management decisions, just making comments about how forest situations are in my neck of the woods.