Lucas Speaks!!

[arnold]

Hi Forestry forum members. My name is Arnold and represent LUCAS mills in New Zealand. I have been reading with interest the coments that have flowed about sawmills in general.
I purchased a lucas back in 1995 and ended up doing the represnting for lucas.
The changes and upgrading that has evolved since is amazing. The fact that the double cut has created so much interest spurned me to reply.  Yes it may be  a little difficult to understand the new turnaround for the dbl/cut but in reality is very quick and from a safety aspect does not require the removal of saw guards etc. In New Zealand and Australia the OSH (safety) outfit would crucify you to bankruptcy and my insurance company would never talk to me again. I would have thought that product and liability insurance in the USA was very exacting and to read that you can remove guards and not put them back on is amazing. The guards on the lucas are welded for that reason.
The new lucas video has the dbl/cut method on it. You can ask Bailey's for a current one.
Regards Arnold

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Welcome to the Forum, Arnold.

  Unfortunately, Insurance is nearly impossible to get for sawmills in the USA. For that reason alone, you just may as well do what you want, as long as you keep others away from the mill. Don't wanna saw up innocent bystanders  : ;D ;D

[Bavarian in Brazil]

One detail I think has been unnoticed so far: You actually don't have to turn around the mill for every double cut. Actually turning the saw head twice gives you three large boards, not just two.

A question: when you cut the horizontal with the back of the blade using the Peterson method, where does the blade for the vertical end up once you swing the saw? Can you swing 90 degrees to the other side to still have an intersect with the horizontal cut? Or do you do the horizontal, then adjust the position for the vertical cut each time you take a bite of the right side of the log?

Sawmillsi: It actually is Euc. Tereticornis. This species actually does't have the tension problems that Grandis has. Especially if it is 50cm or more in diameter. But it is true. It is preferable to cut shorter lengths, like 3m. However, most tension problems come from logs harvested very young. Brazilians are used to cycles of 20 years most, for pulp or firewood. This timber is not really suitable for sawn timber.
Two weeks ago I have seen a Euc. grandis stand, 15 years old. Average diameter 40cm and high as the sky. Don't like Grandis that much though. It jst gets eaten up by termites to easily.

[Minnesota_boy]

In New Zealand and Australia the OSH (safety) outfit would crucify you to bankruptcy and my insurance company would never talk to me again. I would have thought that product and liability insurance in the USA was very exacting and to read that you can remove guards and not put them back on is amazing.

Here in the US, if you have no employees, you can do most anything you want without OSHA getting involved.  Once you hire help though, you better have good guards or good help.  If there is an accident involving your employees, you might as well donate the equipment and declare bankruptcy.  JMHO

[tnlogger]

 arnold welcome to the forum  ;)

[Ianab]

A question: when you cut the horizontal with the back of the blade using the Peterson method, where does the blade for the vertical end up once you swing the saw? Can you swing 90 degrees to the other side to still have an intersect with the horizontal cut? Or do you do the horizontal, then adjust the position for the vertical cut each time you take a bite of the right side of the log?

The trick is to place a thin spacer on the horizontal adjustment stop when making the second pass of the double cut. This moves the horizontal setting enough so the cuts still line up on the other side of the blade. I believe the recomended spacer is a Steinlager bottle top  :D

And welcome to the forum Arnold, good to have another Kiwi online.

Ian

[Bavarian in Brazil]

I made a little drawing to clearify my question:

Do you have to shift the head to the left to make the vertical cut, then move back again to size the next board?

[Back40x2]

Is that an Etchasketch or Auto cad!!!! :D :D :D

Sorry I could not resist the temptation!!!!

A person needs a sence of YUMA :D :D ;)

[sawmillsi]

BIB,

I am really supresied! I follow what you (in Sth America) do over there with the Euc's. cause it is a bench mark for the whole world for best management of euc platations, but never did I think that you would be growing Tereticornis. We don't do it for plantations here in Australia!

I agree with the grandis comment, but for furniture etc... it is beautifull! They grow real good over your way!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to come over one day and do some learning.

I will try and find some pictures and drawings on the Peterson double cut system.

Arnold, as Australian agents for Petersons we have to have insurance to cover the manufacture of the mills as well as the training we provide and for operating the mills at demonstrations (such as AusTimber 04 where we met).

We have absolutly no problem getting insurance. None of our customers have problems getting insurance. For us to get insurance, we had to submit our instruction manuals, videos and training scheduals to Zurich (our insurance underwriters) - no problems.

The average insurance cost for our customers doing portable sawmilling (just public liability insurance) is about AUD$1,500 per year. It costs a bit more for fire and theft.

We have been agents here in Australia for about 8 years and we are not bankrupt and we email our insurance broker at least monthly. Maybe you should change your insurance underwriter - I can supply some names if you want.

In Australia, we have very strick OH & S laws. Forestry and sawmilling is considered the most dangerous occupation - more than mining and construction! However Peterson mills have been inspected by the authorities on many occasions and there has never been any issues - in fact I have had comments made to me by inspectors on the safe appearance and working of the mills.

JMHO,

In Australia it dosn't matter wether you employ someone or not - the law is the law. The first fine for non compliance is AUD$50,000 then for second offence and there after ranges from AUD$200,000 and up, but that differes slightly for each state of Australia (not by more than about AUD$10,000 or so) and they throw the whole innocent before being proved guilty thing out the window. Barstards!

This is a very interesting post!!! I hope that the Peterson crew will be reading this and post some interesting transport pictures as well!!

Simon

[arnold]

simon
         Great to see you have got the same osh laws as we have. I wonder what your insurance would think if, like the video shows, the guards are removed for the dbl/cut.
A few years ago a saw blade came off a mill (not ours) and hit the operator and killed him.
The saw guard was removed at the time and one always wonders what if !!!!.
Arnold

[Ernie]

Welcome Arnold

I notice from your email address that you are in NZ.  Where?  You have no tree on the map.

Ernie

[sawmillsi]

Arnold,

The video shows very clearly how to do a double cut, including taking the gaurd off.

They didn't have a problem!

My thoughts on blades coming off are -

Was the operator using the machine as intented by the manufacturer?
Did he/she follow all instructions?
Would the gaurd have stopped the blade anyway?

I have seen the result of big blades (6' +) in fixed mills coming off - no guard stops them. They just take off through walls, then down the yard.

I think that if a blade came off a Peterson mill, a Lucas mill or any other kind of circular blade mill - its going to either kill someone or do some real bad damage!

Simon

[Tom]

I wish to interject something here before we get off on the wrong track.  It has to do with the statement and question:

"A few years ago a saw blade came off a mill (not ours) and hit the operator and killed him.
The saw guard was removed at the time and one always wonders what if !!!!."

We are a small group of very select individuals.  The Forum makes us a small society by its very nature but the exposure from this little group is Huge.   We are a very elite group measured in the fact that we work with Forests, logs and wood in a harvesting and break-down scenario.

It's too small of a society for us to be "bashing" one another or even insinuating, publicly, that others have problems that they may not be tending to and "we" don't.  I realize that the above quote names no names, but the index of companies that would fit into the conversation is small enough that a lot of finger pointing can be assumed.

The story of the incident as told in its entirety placed the fault directly upon the operator of the sawmill.  He had not only removed guards, but had drilled the blade and modified the saw.  He did not do a very good job and his carelessness cost him his life.

I know that you, as employees of your individual companies, are label specific and industrially proud, but, remember that the forum is not the place for negative advertising.  

We as members have a special bond with our Sponsor's.  It's not just the money that they provide, it's the fact that they provide it to keep us on the air.  They aren't paying salaries, they are providing a place for us all to meet.  The Forum isn't their's, it belongs to each and every member.  The rules are to keep the atmosphere of the forum open to all.  

Sponsors don't call the shots just because their logo appears on the side of the page.  But, neither are they exposed to the world for anyone with an Axe to grind, a dollar to make or a dagger to throw. 

Each and every one of our Sponsor's has paid his dues.  No not the money again.  I'm talking about their personal involvement with the members of the forum and their attitude that they are here to help the industry.  A Sponsor of this forum has created a lot of warm camaraderie that puts them in a membership-protected situation.  It's a position that is earned over time.  It doesn't make them right, but, they aren't standing alone with their backs to the wall when confronted by anyone.  It only takes one "ah S*** to wipe out all your atta-boys" but, by the same token, nobody can come onto the Forum with aggressiveness on his mind and get away with it.

If we as administrators see actions that will hurt the forum, we reserve the authority to remove the posts and even the thread with no explanation what-so-ever.  Be careful how you approach your posts so that you don't get involved in our interpreting it as personal bashing.  Life is too short for relationships like that.

Know who you represent. Labels you earn here could last a long time.

[DanG]

Very well said, Tom.  I think the fact that all the manufacturers that represent themselves here, whether they are sponsors or not, are always complimentary of their competition's products, lends a friendly and trustworthy air to this forum.  It has come to the point that anyone who doesn't conform to that model does themselves harm.  I very strongly feel that that is the way it should be.

That being said, I will say that I'm tickled pink to have another maker on board.  I hope they will stay with us and answer all the questions their customers and prospects have about their fine product.  I also hope they will see their way to become a sponsor.

[Jeff]

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