"River" log question. Fla. D. ?

[ellmoe]

   I received a call today from the office of a Ga. State Senator. It seems they wanted to know if the State of Florida was paid for the logs "harvested" from the State's waters. I told them that I was not sure, but did not think so. My understanding is that the logs are "lost personal property" and that there had been a Federal court ruling that limited any state from overly restricting the recovery of these logs. I admitted that I have no direct knowledge, but that I knew where all the smart guys hung out!... Well , anyway that site is offline, so I'd thought I'd try here. ;D Any takers?

Mark

[Jeff]

I think you might have to wait for Harold, If he and Corley are going underwater logging tomorrow, he may be up at his camp.

[Teri]

FDH won't be back until Thursday or Friday. Talked to him a couple of hrs. ago.

[chet]

Ron Scott may be able to answer your questions also.

[Ron Scott]

FDH would have the most up to date info on Florida Log Salvage laws. Permits are required and as here in Michigan, stumage values need to be paid to the state for their salvage.

There is one court case still pending here in Michigan on ownership rights, but the State still prevails on the removal of any "woody debri' from the bottoms of "its waters". The  recovered logs are scaled for their determined values just as any surface timber sale.

[Paschale]

Ron,

So if somone sees a log floating in Lake Michigan after a storm, and they retrieve it, they're supposed to get a permit?  And then they're supposed to pay the state for the log?  Wow...that seems pretty crazy to me, considering those logs have been down there probably for around 100 years or so.  I guess the government wants to get all they can!   :

[J_T]

When the governor dives in an hooks on to that log then and only then would I give him a dime :D :D :D

[Ron Scott]

Submerged logs that have been left abandoned on the bottomlands are different than "floating " logs. The owner of floating logs has a reasonable period to recover them. In fact the state may fine you if you don't recover them, especially if they are a navigational hazard. Abandonment is usually considered to be 30 days if ownership isn't determined.

Once abandoned on the "bottomlands"  the state takes over jurisdiction. An environmental assessment also needs to be made prior to removal of submerged logs that have been on the bottom for a number of uears, especially 100 years. Impacts to the lake  or river bottom, fish habitat, cultural resources, etc, etc, need to be considered.

The freedom of the old maritime salvage law of "finders-keepers" doesn't exist much anymore.

[Furby]

Ron, how does that work with trees washed out from rivers?
Every spring there are several washed down stream in the larger rivers. One place I drive pass all the time is known to catch a loose tree every year or two, I'm guessing the same rules would apply?

[DanG]

In Florida, the only logs that are considered "fair game" for underwater loggers, such as FDH, are those that were felled by man.  Trees felled by erosion or other natural causes are considered a part of nature and must be left.

I wonder what the Ga. Senator was up to?  Are they thinking of re-opening Georgia's rivers for logging?  Can't help but be suspicious, though.  They've been trying for years to make Florida pay them for the water that flows to us through the Good Lord's river system, just because some of it fell as rain on their territory.  Maybe they're gonna try to get a cut because some of "their" water flowed over those logs. :

[sigidi]

Wow from an outsiders point, this all sounds amazing;

possibly getting fined if through on fault of your own a tree falls into a dreek after a storm?
proving 'ownership' of a fallen tree?
once they sink they become the governments?

Crikey that's off the charts - I know I'm gonna be watching this one for when FDH gets back.

[Haytrader]

I think Harold once said they had to pay a fee to the state each year.
And as I remember, it was surprisingly high, in my mind.

[Ron Scott]

Furby,

Logs eroded into the river by nature and not cut by man are pretty much handled the same as DanG said. They become part of the river system as "woody debris" and usually can't be removed without prior approval of the party having jurisdiction.

Some common sense has to be used such as in emergency situations, flood damage, blocking dam and water system inlets, outlets, etc. Usually there is no "abandonment" indicated in such cases. Each situation has to be handled on its own merits.

The permits, fees, environmental assessments, and state/federal approvals needed for underwater log salvage put me out of that business here in Michigan some time ago. That includes shipwrecks also. Its pretty much now, all look and "don't touch".

[Paschale]

Submerged logs that have been left abandoned on the bottomlands are different than "floating " logs. The owner of floating logs has a reasonable period to recover them. In fact the state may fine you if you don't recover them, especially if they are a navigational hazard. Abandonment is usually considered to be 30 days if ownership isn't determined.

This is really intriguing to me, since I have a friend who fairly regularly snags logs that are a hundred years old out of one of the Great Lakes.  He's active in the Coast Guard, and is on the water quite a bit.  After big storms, apparently some of the old logs from the logging days can be stirred up, and released and float to the surface (just barely).  If you know what to look for, you can see them, especially on a calm day.  Some of them still even have the old markings on the butt ends of the logs.  So, the claims of ownership are 100 years old, and at the same time, if they're left in the middle of one of the Great Lakes, they can really impose a safety hazard to those who don't know they're there.  It sounds like he's doing boaters a service, as well as providing himself with some unique wood.  Would this be considered improper by the authorities?  If it is, that seems a bit unfortunate.

[Larry]

I've seen a pontoon boat on one of the corp lakes in Arkansas towing trees home after a big rain.  I figured he was doing a public service by removing navigation hazards.  Bet he has saved the lives of hundreds if not thousands riding in there 70 MPH bassboats and jet skis.

Ya don't suppose this guy has a mill sitting in his backyard? ;D :D ;D

Just a wild thought....wonder if I could get the COE to pay me to remove all of these navigation hazards from there lakes? ;D

[Jeff]

You guys must have some DanG big bass boats!    We can't get but 3 or 4 guys max in the ones I see around here and still go 70

[Jeff]

I dont understand what would enable a sinker log suddenly be able to float again.

[Larry]

 :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

[Ron Scott]

Attaching an air bag to them.  A 50 gallon barrel or inner tubes will also make them float again. ;)

[Paschale]

I've been baffled by that as well--but this friend of mine has hauled them outta Lake Michigan with the markings from the old logging companies intact.  It's a mystery to me, with some sort of logical explanation.  They don't ride at all on the surface of the water, but just sorta hover just below the surface of the water, and he says usually one end is slightly visible. I don't get how they show up at all, but he's hauled quite a few of them out, and I've seen the lumber he's made with them.  I don't really have any reason to disbelieve him.... :-\ 

[Jeff]

Thats what I mean, 100 year old logs don't just start floating around lake Michigan do they? I can see how they might be a hazard in shallow water, but it doesn't seem like a log that has been on the bottom can suddenly become buoyant again.

[Paschale]

I'll have to ask him what his explanation is on it...or find out more details about where he finds them.  Maybe they're pushed into shallower waters or something with the turbulence of the Lake, and that's where they find them.  I'll post something when I know more...   :P

[Kirk_Allen]

Kinda reminds me of an old timer that told me the best hunting story ever.

He said he shot this MONSTER buck.  "It had over 20 points.  I hit him with my old faithful 30/30.  One shot!  I was so proud I put my gun across his antlers like a gun rack and held his head up and had my wife take a picture.  Well wouldnt you know it, as soon as I set down his head that deer got up and ran off with my rifle dangling in his antlers.  I was sick for a whole year.  You see, I was hunting the same spot and that deer come by with my gun dangling from that big ol rack, which now had aobut 25 points.  I shot him dead this time.  Got the buckon the wall and my gun back in the gun cabinet."

I laughed so hard hearing him tell the story that I didnt have the heart to tell him deer shed their antlers every year.

[Roxie]

"A considerable number of commercially valuable logs are resting on the bottom of the lake which have become waterlogged and have sunk, probably during the past 50 years, since the lake has been used for log storage and movement during that extended period.  In addition, there are a number of logs floating submerged beneath the surface which have not yet become sufficiently waterlogged to sink to the bottom."

I found this on a legal posting from Washington State about the ownership of sunken logs.  It sounds possible for lumber to be suspended for years, without sinking.
Where is FLA DH when you need him ???

[Jeff]

I'm not thinking thaat way at all, I bet the logs do becime a hazard. I just was trying to understand how it happens.  We have storms that move stuff around for sure, I would bet ice movement would be a bigger culprit.