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Running cost statistics on your mill please??

Started by Wife, February 19, 2005, 04:11:12 PM

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Wife

Hi there. Our government sometimes pays for growing companies to have an "assessment" with a bigwig marketing guru. Well he couldn't believe we had such an incredible product, but that we short-sold ourselves so badly...us being the shy kind down here in the shire of hobbitville (I HOPE you didn't miss Lord of the Rings)...

So I desperately need all you fine folks' help. My first task is to do some proper homework. I'd love to hear from anyone and everyone who has a mill and has done some serious sawing (ANY mill). I am looking for some REAL maintenance and running costs, per hour/day/boardfoot etc - whatever you can give me. And don't forget those little things you might even have to replace every 2 years...I've been told I've got to do this THOROUGHLY :(...And of course the results ;D!! :P

Thanks guys. Remember I've got a spare double room down here in Kiwiland if you've got so much info it needs to be handed over in person....
Kerris, in the background....
Petersons Global Sales Ltd
15c Hyland Cres
Rotorua, New Zealand
www.petersonsawmills.com
kbrowne@petersonsawmills.com
Ph +64 7 3480863

sigidi

Hey that's great to hear you guys might be getting some heavy hitter in for marketing, (fee free to use anything or contact me again regarding my last PM)

I suppose Lucas mills stats would'nt really help you in this, so I'll just keep looking at this one with very keen interest.

Aw to heck with it - in the interest of gettign things started and getting folkes to post some good info for ya...

I've ran my 618 for 64.2 hours, have tensioned the drive belts once, tensioned the track chains twice, greased my driveshaft bearing every day after milling and still have half a gun of grease (so $4) cleaned my air filter 4 times and it takes 4 hours at full throttle to go through a full fuel tank (a cost of $7 at the moment so roughly $112.35 for my total fuel),  I've also had one blade re-tensiod (from my sillyness :D) which has cost $34.90 for postage and $18 for the work.
And that's all the maintenance and $'s I've had to shell out - hope it helps

OOOOPPPSS - forgot I lost a blade screw too - but I haven't got a price on a replacement as I had others
Always willing to help - Allan

Wife

Cool start. Nice to get stats from a mill with accurate hourmeters...So how much timber did you get cut? One operator or two? Man hours? How many retips/sharpens? How many tips did the metal take off? What does it cost you to retip?

Sorry to be bother...but this really helps, thanks!
Kerris, in the background....
Petersons Global Sales Ltd
15c Hyland Cres
Rotorua, New Zealand
www.petersonsawmills.com
kbrowne@petersonsawmills.com
Ph +64 7 3480863

crtreedude

Hi,

To really figure this kind of stuff I would think you would want to do a mean time to failure study. If you look at a hard drive or some other computer gadget, you will have this information. It is a calculation.

It isn't like you have to run your machine for 5 years to determine the likelyhood of failure - it is based on the number of the components and the type of components.

Your engine should have this information, and the maintence recommendation - so then you would look up similar devices for other parts of the assembly.


By the way - which saw? Am I right this is Peterson's?


So, how did I end up here anyway?

twostroke_blood

Screw The Government  :D :D :D   Only kidding . I just purchased a Sawmill so this topic is interesting to me as well. As for that extra room, does it include meals? ;D

Ron Wenrich

OK.  I'll give you some details on a small to medium sized commercial mill cutting hardwoods.

Weekly costs are:

labor with SS & WC (5 employees):  $4000
fuel (on site generator):  $500
saw costs (includes new saw every 2 years):  $75
taxes and insurance:  $50
capital costs:  $300
repairs and improvements:  $500
misc:  $250

Total:  $5675/week  or  $142/hr or $2.36/min.

For the sake of arguement, let's say its costing about $2.50/min.  That means when I hit a nail in a log, that's going to cost about $25, just to sharpen. 

When you have an hourly or minute cost, you can than take that number and apply it to sawing costs.  I know I produce about 1-2 Mbf/hour, depending on species and cutting patterns.  So, my sawing costs range anywhere from $75-150/Mbf. 

If I wanted to, I can break that down to how much it costs to saw a certain type of log - by diameter, species, or grade.  Then I can determine which logs to kick out of the production stream.  That's what sawmill analysis is all about.

For the smaller mills, the computations should include labor (no one works for free), saw costs, capital costs (depreciation and interest), fuel & electric, storage costs, and repairs.  I'm sure you guys can come up with a few others that I missed.  Our repairs seem high since we don't do much of them in house.   We also don't have much downtime due to repairs.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

rvrdivr


Wife

I promise I won't share anything with the tax man. And yep, we got our "own" figures for the Peterson, but we want to know REAL MILLERS figures, and for all those other cool mills out there too. Would love some real stats on the orange and green machines. And the stuff so far is excellent. Will be digesting and then probably asking more questions...
Kerris, in the background....
Petersons Global Sales Ltd
15c Hyland Cres
Rotorua, New Zealand
www.petersonsawmills.com
kbrowne@petersonsawmills.com
Ph +64 7 3480863

Captain

Well, I kept pretty close tabs for the first 38,000BF+/- 1000BF  That happened at 200 hrs.

Fuel $310 (this includes other business items/shared fuel containers)
Blade Maintainence (including 3 major/minor metal strikes) $160
Battery $25
Belts $30
Oil/Filters/gear oil for service $66
Wow, that's under 2 cents a board foot!! :o
Certainly, labor is not added into this number.

Since then, the poor mill has been cutting in different locations, at differnet shows, and different demonstrations.  I've just lost track of the total BF sawn.  I was also operating with a broken hour meter for a time (replaced under warranty) I anticipate it to be around 60,000BF at this point.  Since the 38,000BF mark there has been a little bit replaced:
2 worn track rollers $50
Worn out sizing wheel handle $14
Blown tire tube on a jockey wheel (customer's fault) $6
Another set of belts $30
more blades purchased for extras...plus about $140 in blade maintainence
oil/filters/gear oil for service $54
lost track brake $26
Blade Screws $5
Misc lost hardware $10
I have lost track of fuel costs, again fuel from same containers is used for other business machines and is hard to separate sawmill usage.

Okay Kerris, I hope this helps.....

Captain


sigidi

Updated Lucas stats

63.5 cubic metres of hardwoods log cut - bluegum, spotted gum, stingybark, ironbark
1.7cubic metres slash pine
no retips yet - 1 metal strike but still using the blade for the dirty timber until it doesn't cut
re-tipping locally is $33 or post it off for $61.30 (difference being the posted guys have been recommended to do the work, the local guy I found myself so have to test the water)
running 3 blades and continually rotating the two through clear timber and the third for the dirty stuff till it dies
45-60min loading each log - so far that has been 47 logs this is my biggest time loss whilst running
single operator
about (not totally sure, but you can bet I will be counting from now on) 19 sharpens

I hope this stuff helps you out.

I've done three outside jobs and the rest of the timber has been for myself so I'm not sure exactly how much I have yeilded, (enought to do a lot of building sso far!) but early on it was 65% of log volume - hopefully I am better now ;D
Always willing to help - Allan

Wife

YES. This is good stuff. Captain, stop boasting. I didn't mean this to be a competition....but I suppose when it comes to men and their toys...oh well, go for it!

Sigidi - how much did you charge for the outside jobs? And wow, 65 m3 in just over 60 machine hours is excellent, especially in hardwoods - are those figures right? And I think your sharpens might be a bit low - wouldn't you need to sharpen every 2 cube or so? And what size are those logs? And what sized boards?

Captain - I understand you cut smaller logs (what size??), and mostly 1 inch boards. Figures into the slightly lower production, but still great figures on your own. And the costs seem really really low. What does your fuel cost per litre? And what would your machinehour-to-manhour ratio be, from the time you arrive at a job to the time you leave?

Guys, I'll collate everything I get over the next few weeks, and share with those that have contributed. Thanks so far!


Kerris, in the background....
Petersons Global Sales Ltd
15c Hyland Cres
Rotorua, New Zealand
www.petersonsawmills.com
kbrowne@petersonsawmills.com
Ph +64 7 3480863

sigidi

Charging - I charge by the log cube at $145 per cube plus 10% for tax - I was caught badly doing a cut list job where I quoted a cut cube rate and ended up cutting 5.6 times the amount of required timber to get the required boards.
If someone approaches me for say 4x6m (20') 150x75 (6"x3") then I ring the local hardwood mill find out their price and availability to supply the timber, then undercut it by about 15%, this way I'm not charging way off mark and I get to know how long someone would have to wait if they wanted it from elsewhere. The most expensive timber I have found is 150x150 or 6"x6" this sells for $1,868.44 per cube and is rough sawn :o :o

63.5 cube came from 41 logs so an average of 1.5 cubic metre per log, admittedly some have been pathetic logs and should have been given the flick, but I'm just getting started. The biggest I have had has been a 6.468 cube stringybark which was 4.2m long

Sharpens  - I may be off a bit, it hasn't been something I have kept specific records on, but knowing me (now that someone has asked a question I don't have exact numbers for) as soon as I get some new tips, I'll be keeping a much better track on it (as an example of my pedantic nature, I run the sharpener over each tooth forward and backwards 5 times :o)

Board size - (sorry it's metric for y'all) 290x40, 225x80, 150x150, 150x50, 150x38, 150x25, 150x17, 150x4.5, 100x75, 100x50, 100x12, 70x35. so I guess some of it has been quite big, which may have helped the average a bit -while double cutting I switch off when turning the mill and while loading new logs, but other wise I run the mill 'till I finish the log.

Most of my cutting has been softer hardwood like bluegum, (cant find density stats for Bluey but it is softer than stringy) stringybark 800kg per cube at 12%moisture and just lately the majority has been Ironbark 1105kg per cube at 12% and spotted gum 1010kg per cube at 12%

I hope this helps out in the search for knowledge, as I mentioned it has taken a really long time to move those logs into the mill (far far longer than actuall cutting time) as I do it all with a can't hook and iron bar.
Always willing to help - Allan

Captain

The average log size in my mill is probably 16".  Yes, about 70 percent of the hours logged on my mill is by myself, sawing 1x material.  About 80 percent of my sawing is in Eastern White pine.

Captain


Rod

Well I bought 5 blades for $60 I think and I got 5 blades free,and some of the other blade makes gave me some free blades,so now I have a total of 20 blades.

Mill has  an eletric motor and I can't tell  much differents on my eletric bill when I use it.

I never keep track of how many board feet I've cut but I've had all the blades sharpend once.

I'll cut a log down to were I can get a 4X4 out of it,so I guess thats down to 6'',7'' maybe.And up to about 30''.and leanth is from 4'-16'

I haven't bought anything yet for the mill,but I've only had it for about 3/4 of year now.

I haven't broke any blades or hit any metal,and I wash off all the logs before cutting too so I'm guessing I get about 500 a blade.


Rod

And I use all the lumber I cut for my projects.And the cost of getting a blades sharpened around here is $3 each.

Rod

I guess I could of put all my replies into 1 reply.But after reading some of the other replies some other stuff came to my mind.

I cut pine and hardwood.It think the hardwood cuts easier then the pine which might sound like it doen't make any sense :)I think it beacuse the hadwoods have more water in them is the reason.

I don't know what my average size of board is.I cut alot of 6X6,4X4,and dimensional lumber.


Wife

Rod - good stuff. What kind of mill? Purchase price? How long does it take (manhours and machine hours) for your production? What is an acceptable depreciation rate for your sawmill?

And anyone else out there - what would be a good pickup-and-trailer running cost figure?
And what would you expect to pay a sawmill operator if you had to hire one?
Kerris, in the background....
Petersons Global Sales Ltd
15c Hyland Cres
Rotorua, New Zealand
www.petersonsawmills.com
kbrowne@petersonsawmills.com
Ph +64 7 3480863

Ed_K

 Lets see, EZ Baker w/3 blades $4300. 15 more blades $270. Sharpener & Setter $500. 2 oil changes $12. 2 belts $28.
Sawed 4 commercial jobs 2800bf. sawed my own about 5mbf softwood 1mbf hardwood.
Used 1500bf on mill shed.
Have had this ALL MANUAL mill since 2002.
Wow, I don't think I want to know what it cost me per bf or mill hrs  :o.
Oh, I saw for .25 softwood & .35 hardwood. You take the slabs too.
Ed K

Wife

Sorry for sounding dumb, but what is (how much is) a mbf? :-[
Kerris, in the background....
Petersons Global Sales Ltd
15c Hyland Cres
Rotorua, New Zealand
www.petersonsawmills.com
kbrowne@petersonsawmills.com
Ph +64 7 3480863

Captain

I'm not sure of the history of the term myself, hopefully somebody can give us a history lesson.

1 MBF = 1000BF

Rod

Wife,I have a Turner mill,it cost $3400 and the motor was$700.I checked one time to see how long it would take to cut a good sized log once it was on the mill, and it toke me 45 minuites and it had 250 boad feet in it that was cut into 1'' and 1 1/2'' boards.

Today I'll check how long it will take me to cut 6-12''X16'logs into 6''X6''.

It took about 1 hour to cut the trees to leangh and drag them to the mill and load them on the log deck with my 4X4 truck.

I'm figuring it shouldn't take no more then and hour to cut them.

If I had to go to lowe's, the 6''x6'' will cost me $40 each and it's a 2 hour trip or more to Lowe's to get them.

6-6''X 6''X16' IS 288 board feet that would cost me $240 + 6% sales tax=$254 total +gas for going get them ,or Lowe's will bring them to me for $45,so $45 +254=$299.

Also the Hemlock trees I cut out of the woods aren't worth much around here and by removing the lower grade trees that gives room for the high grade trees to grow.






Rod

And with the slabs,I put them in a slab rack and cut them up for firewood to heat my home.Firewood around here goes for $60 a cord to the house and they dump it out.The rest of the slabs go over the bank were some day I'll have a dozer push some dirt over the slabs and then I'll have a litte more flat land.


slowzuki

This isn't exactly what you're all talking about but I added up the $$ I have into the mill for tax time and it is 5200$ Canadian including the big hydraulic winch.  I haven't even turned it on yet!

Ken

Timo

I did a rather detailed spreadsheet of running costs vs production vs depreciation prior to purchase - I'll email it to you. To be fair, I'm just starting but I am curious about how my predictions will bear out after a few months of cutting. In the end, it mostly comes down to production so hopefully I can grow a third arm or something..... :D

I estimate that the first 15000-20000 BF that I cut per year (at local rates of $300 per) will cover the cost of the mill, after that I start making some money.  Now, if your are cutting weekends that is a lot of weekends, which is where a cheaper mill starts to make sense.
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

Wife

OK, I'm backpeddling here a bit - how many b/f a year are you all working on doing? I'd started this fancy spreadsheet for a full time sawyer, say 45 weeks a year. Thats what a lot of our NZ buyers do. They buy a mill to go into business. But some of the US stats I'm getting, you guys are only doing a day every weekend or so. Is that a majority of you guys? Looks like the fulltimers might be a minority so far??? (or just to busy to spend time on a keyboard). So what about the bigger Woodmizer operators - are any of you fulltime??
Kerris, in the background....
Petersons Global Sales Ltd
15c Hyland Cres
Rotorua, New Zealand
www.petersonsawmills.com
kbrowne@petersonsawmills.com
Ph +64 7 3480863

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