buying logs vs. timbers

Greg · February 10, 2005, 12:01:05 PM

Wanted to run something by you guys.

I am still struggling bit to find an affordable, reliable supply of material for my small timberframing projects. In particular I have been looking for some white oak of late for some sill plates, which is not something I can easily scavenge around here.

Since I can easily make beams with my chainsaw mill, I thought the most economical thing to do is buy the logs directly. I've gotten quotes from a couple folks around here for ~14' length by 14" diameter logs. I will mill these into 8x8s (and make pegs).

They both want $75 for a #2 log. My initital reaction was this was kinda pricey, given what I understand of current stumpage prices around here are $300/thousand board foot for #2 white oak. (I think)

Since then, I've gotten a price list from a sawmill further away who will sell me the actuall milled 12' 8x8 white oak timber for less than my logs! The mill wants around $65 for this size timber, but of course I'll need to drive alot futher to get them.

Its seems completely out of whack that it cost $10 more to buy the raw logs than it costs to buy the finished product. Comments? What am I missing? Am I getting ripped off?

Thanks,
Greg

Buzz-sawyer · February 10, 2005, 12:24:03 PM

Only if ya buy em ;)

beetle · February 10, 2005, 01:49:39 PM

Greg,
What part of Ohio are you located? There are many small one/two man mills around my part here outside of Cleveland that are operated by Amish. prices are very reasonable. If you are close I can give you directions.

Jim_Rogers · February 10, 2005, 02:12:23 PM

Well lets see you're going to buy a 14" diameter log 14' long. Using the international scale that's 115 bdft.
And a 8x8x12 is 64 bdft. So 115-64=51 more bdft of lumber buying the log.
And you could make a lot of pegs out of 51 bdft.

So lets do the math $75 / 115 = 65 cents per bdft.
Also, $65 / 64 = $1.01 per bdft, so you're paying $.36 per bdft to have it milled out.

I guess you have to ask yourself is (.36x 64 = $23.04) worth my time to cut it up using a chain saw?

How long is it going to take you to cut up that log with the chain sawmill?
How much to you think you should get per hour to do that?
Can you do it in an hour?
What about your gas and oil for the saw?
Chain for the saw?
Cost of the saw?
Sharpening the chain?
Let alone your time doing the job.

And using a chain saw you probably won't get the estimated volume as the chain makes a wide cut.

If you want to do it for an experiment to see how much fun it is go for it.

If not, save some time, and take the drive........

My .02 cents.

Jim Rogers

Greg · February 10, 2005, 03:00:25 PM

(Fixing botched reply...)

I completely agree with you Jim, thanks for the advice.

Comparing these numbers, buying the milled timbers makes WAY more sense all the way around.

My expectation in milling timbers myself, was that the logs could be had for much less than this. So if thats ($75 for 14'x14") what I should reasonably expect to pay for my logs, then I will probably never cut my own beams again!

On a slight tangent, do you make your own pegs?

Cheers,
Greg

ARKANSAWYER · February 10, 2005, 08:06:03 PM

If you need 12 ft timbers why are you pricing 14 ft logs? Either way you will be better off buying the timbers. I will sell you the timbers for $50 bucks.

I makes my own pegs. If you go to the mill to pick up your timbers and watch them saw you will notice the edger man throwing some of the best peg wood away in the slab pile. If you ask they may let you take some home for kindling. ;) ;) ;)
ARKANSAWYER

Greg · February 11, 2005, 10:10:03 AM

Can you explain what you mean by the "best peg wood" being in the slabs?

Greg

JoeyLowe · February 11, 2005, 10:39:43 AM

Hey Greg:

Slabs are sometimes cut pretty thick. There is a lot of straight-grained green lumber waiting to be born into a pep in those slabs. I concur with Jim, too. Save the time and make the drive for those beams. Just for info. Southern Yellow Pine has been going for $22-$26/ton around here up until the past month. All of a sudden the price has jumped to $50/ton. That increase was caused by Georgia Pacific (GP) increasing demand for all SYP. Makes it difficult for us small guys to get the logs we need to stay in business. Makes us start looking at other alternatives too. ;D

Greg · February 11, 2005, 11:49:38 AM

Cool, thanks Joey. Glad its not just me fighting for logs. :-\

Those slabs would be mostly sapwood, right? I was thinking/wondering if using that material would create any issues (strength, drying, ???) with the pegs.

I'm going to test assemble bent one of my shed frame this weekend. Can't way to get that sucker off the ground and see some progress of my labors 8)

Might even taking a pick or true and prove I actually CAN get something done on my frames, not just run my mouth and/or surf the internet!

Cheers,
Greg

TGB · February 11, 2005, 12:03:29 PM

I just got a quote from a mill here in the U.P of Michigan (production of 80,000 bdft/day) at $61 for a 8x8 pine timber, 12' long; green right off the mill. Spruce was quoted at about $55. Just thought that I would throw that out there for some comparison. Seems a little high considering you could get a white oak timber for the same price.

beenthere · February 11, 2005, 12:12:23 PM

TGB
The price of a timber should reflect the quality of that timber as well. A low quality wh oak and a high quality pine timber of the same size could easily be the same price. Often discussions about 'wood' don't reflect the vast differences in the quality of the wood, which will make or 'break' a timber in certain applications (pun intended).

Jim_Rogers · February 11, 2005, 05:22:26 PM

Greg:
I make my own pegs out of air dried red oak.
I thought I had posted somewhere here the procedure I used to make the pegs.
But anyhow. I took the boards and cut them to 10 or 12" lengths. Then ripped them on the table saw into pieces at 7/8" square, as my pegs are 13/16", same as Jack Sobon's.
Then using a shaving horse I cut them with a draw knife to size, pointing around two inches of the very end.
We test each peg in a hole bored threw the seat of the shaving horse to insure they are the right size.
If you have any with bad grain, or cross grain, you"ll see it as you cut them to size. Or the peg will split as you are forming it.
You should not use anything but straight grained wood.
Because if you use some wood with some cross grain the peg could split as you are driving it in and you can't see that as it's inside the timber.
And as you pound in a split peg you might think you are tightening up your joint when you are really just pounding a split peg half past the other half.
Inspection and proper selection will insure a good peg.

Some of the slabs can have straight grained heartwood in them and they can be used for making pegs.
Edgings as well can have some nice wood in them too. Waste not this valuable resource.....

Although hard wood timbers aren't truly graded the same as softwood timbers you should try and get timbers that are grade #2 or better for timber framing.

Good luck with your project.
Jim Rogers

beetle · February 12, 2005, 07:45:54 AM

Just for comparison, here in NE Ohio. I just picked up two 8"x8"x16' Eastern white pine from the guy that cut all my Barn timbers. I am not a grader but there are few knot whorles (sp?) and no wane. $35.00 each. In addition, I picked up a few 4"x6"x10" white Oak for braces, $12.00 each. Board foot price $.42 Pine and $.60 Oak.

ARKANSAWYER · February 14, 2005, 09:18:59 PM

When they are edging boards from butt cuts there will be some nice cuts of heart wood in the fletchings. I draw a line with a square that runs even as possible with the grain and cut with a skill saw. Then I go to the table saw and rip them into 1 1/8 x 1 1/8 sticks about 18 inches long. I stack them in the shed for a few months and when needed I heat them up in the oven for a few hours to dry them down more. I use mostly white oak for pegs. I have a jig that I put them in and cut them into 1x1 ocatgons. Then to the draw horse and a draw knive and a small hand plane finishes them up.
There are many ways to make pegs and different sizes as well as styles. Find one you like that is a proven style and go for it. I like octagons. I have seen ovals, squares, and truly round pegs like dowl rods. In one old barn the pegs were make from branches with the bark peeled off. Straight grain and dry pegs from strong species is key.
ARKANSAWYER

Mtnjack · February 15, 2005, 10:15:53 PM

Could someone please direct me to plans for a shaving horse,Jim may have posted this once but i cant find the linl .Thanks Mtn Jack

Jim_Rogers · February 16, 2005, 06:58:40 PM

MtnJack:
I didn't post the plans as there is a copyright conflict.
Jim Rogers

Mtnjack · February 17, 2005, 04:54:22 PM

is there photos of a shaving horse around ? I wooda though that a primitive tool could not be not copied.

Greg · February 17, 2005, 05:12:09 PM

Moved from another thread.

Searching google, there seem to be lots of plans out there:

http://www.greenwoodworking.com/shorse.htm

http://countryworkshops.org/CWshavehorse.html

http://www.primitiveways.com/shaving-horse.html

While your making one, crank one out for me will ya ;D
Greg

Jim_Rogers · February 17, 2005, 06:06:44 PM

Greg

Thanks for the link update........

Jim Rogers

Jim_Rogers · February 17, 2005, 06:09:24 PM

Jack:
The copy I got is from a book, so I ready shouldn't post them here.
Greg has created a new thread and posted some links to several sites where you can get plans (I think).
If not answer my private message to you, and I'll send you my set of plans.
Jim Rogers