DH4000/L200 help

[Paul_H]

I loaded the kiln today and when I pressed the switch to start it,the lights on the panel came on momentarily and shut off again.The fan must have tried to start because it was still spinning when I went into the chamber.

I messed a bit with the switch and could keep the panel lit up for long enough to see that the temp in the kiln was 65 F and the RH was set at 95.
The outside temps have been hovering around 28 F here for the last week and the chamber was probably at around 32 F this morning.

I have a small heater in the unit inside the kiln right now and have a small light bulb in the box that houses the controller to warm things up.

Any ideas?

[Furby]

Don't know anything about kilns, but it sounds like a moisture overload.

My clothes dryer in the house did something like that a couple weeks ago. Temp was around freezing with lots of humidity. It would work while I held the switch in, then blow the ground fault. Worked fine after a couple days with out doing anything to it.
I figure something picked up a little too much moisture.

[Paul_H]

Furby,
I had trouble with our dryer just before Christmas and it was doing much the same thing and after a lot of checking,it turned out that the bearings in the motor were dry.I repacked them and it has been good since.
With that in mind,I checked the fan motor on the kiln and it spins easily.

When I turn the system switch on,I can hear it try to start up but then the switch wont stay in the on position,it's as if it cams over and when I let it go it goes into the off position.

[Furby]

Hmmm, sorry don't think I can help ya then.
I'm thinking I better check that motor though, Thanks! ;)

[Paul_H]

Update:

I phoned Nyle this morning and talked to Stan and he recommended that we try a few checks to pinpoint the problem.
So,following Stan's advice we took the top cover off of the control box and disconnected the #6 wire that runs the blower motor in the DH unit. When we turned on the system switch,everything worked as it should so we replaced the #6 wire and moved to the DH unit in the kiln chamber and removed the motor.

The connections were fine so we swapped capacitors from one of the  circulating fans.Flipped the system switch and the motor(fan blade removed) started and ran smoothly so we figured that the problem was the capacitor but when we bolted the motor back in and put the fan back on the shaft the switch tripped again.

Now were looking for a new motor.

[Paul_H]

It looks like I'm going to have to wait for awhile to get the new motor.It is a Marathon motor and Marathon won't send one to our supplier UAP/NAPA.

Marv from WM in Salmon Arm BC is running around like a madman trying to fast track one to me so I'm hoping he can source one for early next week.I phoned my customer and broke the news to him and got a long silence,followed by an equally long sigh :

I might have to haywire something in the short term to get these next few loads done.

If any of you electricians have some ideas,I'm all ears.

[devo]

I think Princess Auto sells Maraton motors, don't know if they could get it to ya any quicker though

[Den Socling]

Is it one of those 'single use' designs? I take it that it is not a NEMA frame.

IMO That is one crummy excuse of a control system. I hate it when a motor or solenoid valve or such knocks a whole system dead. When you leave out individual fuses and overloads, you're getting too cheap.

[Paul_H]

Thanks Devo,

I should have mentioned that the motor is rated for high temps and there is a problem with it being a proprietary # so marathon can't ship. I'm not familiar with the term but for some reason they won't send to NAPA.

I'll try Princess Auto.

Thanks

[Paul_H]

I missed your post Den,
here is all the info I could find on the motor

Marathon
Mod 9VM48C17F22E  P   
1/3 HP, 60 HZ, 1725 RPM

FR-48  PH-1 type SCS
F/A 6.0/3.0  Code - L   enc -tefc
Amb - 40 deg C  INS -B3
Duty - cont



Does any of this shed  light on the reason they won't ship? I wonder if the problem is heat alone or is it a special mounting problem.

[devo]

Paul I can't see anything special about that motor.  FR-48 is a fairly common frame, and 40 deg C is standard. Only one is the insulation class, I'm not familiar with. As long as you match the HP, RPM, frame, and voltage any generic motor should get you by. Make shure it is tefc though. (totaly enclosed - fan cooled)

[Paul_H]

Thanks devo ,that helps a lot.

I'll see what I can roust up this weekend.My customer is understanding because he knows how it goes but his customers aren't quite so good in that department  :

I just heard from Marv at WM again and he is going to see if Marathon will help out a little bit here.I'd rather pay a huge airfreight bill than lose this customer.

[raycon]

Looked in a McMaster Carr catalog.
They list a motor meeting your specs for $128 US dollars.

Capcacitor Start - Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled  (TEFC) - NEMA frame 48 - 1/3 HP 1725 RPM
Insulation Rating B or Higher.

part # in the McMaster Carr catalog I have is 5990k65.

Theres some other options for the motor available. McMaster Carr down here will get it to you next day -- except weekends. Bit late for yah.

Search McMaster Carr and you'll find there online catalog -- which probably has more current pricing.

[Paul_H]

Thank you Raycon.

I'll have a look and see what the shipping arangements might be.

[Paul_H]

I just ordered that motor from Mcmaster and hopefully will see it by Wednesday and in the mean time I will try to get one here Monday from a local supplier so I may end up with a spare.If I do,I'll let you know in case anybody here has the same problem sometime.It might save a few days.

Thanks

Paul

[Don_Lewis]

The motor is available from Nyle. There are a number of makes that have a version that will work. Baldor has it as a catalog motor. The motor must have ball bearings and have a service factor of 1.35. If you have the same motor with a service factor of 1.15 you should use a 1/3 HP motor. But always a totally enclosed, ball bearing motor. Also, and this is very important...it must NOT be internally protected. If the one you get has internal protection, send it back.

[Paul_H]

Thanks for the help Don.
I went back and looked at the motor I ordered and the service factor is 1.00 and it has now internal overload protection. The motor is a 1/3 HP and I'm hoping it will work.(?)
I had no luck matching a motor from Princess Auto this weekend but will still try to source one locally tomorrow from another supplier and see if I can have the kiln running by Tuesday morning.

If not,I'll order the spare through WM or Nyle and put it on my shelf.

[Don_Lewis]

The  internally protected motors trip out at kiln temperatures so you may find your high pressure safety tripping. That is a manual reset. The motor resets itself when it cools off a little so sometimes you don't catch it when off. But the HP safety will trip telling you that it had been off.  (since you had a fan motor problem, it is probably tripped now.) 1.0 service factor (cheaper) motors run hotter and this makes the situation worse. You don't have a safety issue but you do have a nuisance issue. See how it goes. If you can get by, you can order a motor by ground. Just keep the temperature down to fairly low temps, 100 or so and you might be okay temporarily 

[Paul_H]

Don,
I see I made a typo on my last post,it should have said the motor has no internal protection.All the information shared on this thread helped immensely when talking on the phone to the suppliers this morning.

I managed to find a motor today that has a 1.35 service factor and no internal protection.I should have it in my hands at around 4 pm today.

I'm really happy about that 8)

[Paul_H]

Got the motor this afternoon at 4:30 and pulled it out of the box.

Strike one - not tefc
strike two - internally protected

I had all the info from this thread printed out and read him the specs over the phone.I stressed tefc and that it was not to be internally protected.I asked if he wanted me to fax the page down to him.He told me he didn't need it...

"uh huh, uh huh,all standard stuff,straight forward,can I have your credit card number please"

[devo]

I'll bet he got the credit card part right though.  :-\

[OneWithWood]

Make sure you get a 100% refund.  If it is any consolation he still has to pay the discount on the transaction both ways. >:(

[Paul_H]

Yeah,he had no problem with the card #  ;)

OWW,
It's going to cost us both a bit,I'm out the $25 freight. I phoned him this morning and after a little bit of head butting I think that we have the right motor coming for the late afternoon.Had to remind him that I had all the specs ready to fax yesterday but he had declined.

I'm still expecting the other motor from McMaster today or tomorrow.

[Paul_H]

Went out this morning and dropped of the motor to be shipped back to Vancouver and when I got home there was a note from the Puralator guy that said he was there at 11:07 am and that I could pick up the package at the local depot.
Went into town at 4:30 and picked up both motors from the two different depots.Both were identical and made by Leeson and all specs were correct.

The motor from California that was shipped Monday morning,beat the local supplier by 5 1/2 hours. The McMaster supplied motor was $122 US and the Vancouver supplied motor was $228 Cdn.

[Paul_H]

I installed the new motor this morning and flipped the system switch without the fan on the motor and everything worked fine. Bolted the fan on,flipped switch again and nothing,nada back to square one (need a smiley with blood dripping out the nose)

It turns out that it may be the system switch itself so I ordered a couple from Nyle shipped overnight and I really hope I see them in the morning.

I now have two spare motors so if anybody ever cooks a motor and are in a bind let me know and I'll overnight it to you and you can replace it at your leisure.

[devo]

Been thinking about this today. What kind of switches are they?  Since the motor has no built in protection, there must be something is the circuit somewhere to protect from a locked/overheating motor. Since the motor will start without the fan blade and wont with it on, it sounds like bad protection (contacter?). Do the switches have the protection built into them. If not I would look elsewhere in the circuit.

[Paul_H]

When I talked to Nyle yesterday I was told that it is a motor starter switch that was built exclusively for Nyle so I had no way of finding one locally to get me going faster.Stan told me the specs but I can't find the paper that I wrote it on.
I debated on whether or not i should rob one from one of the two circulating fans but opted to  buy two switches and have them sent by an overnight courrier and have it here today. They didn't make it :-\

What other spare parts should a person have on hand?Are there any circuit breakers or other system components that I should be stocking?

Thanks

[Don_Lewis]

The switches contain the overload. Make sure you hooked the new motor up for 220v. The one you got probably can be wired for either 110 or 220v.  You could swap overload switches with the fans as what you buy locally will fit easily in the boxes but not easily into the controller. You can buy a calibrated motor overload switches that go in the switch boxes for the fans locally. You get them rated for the same amps. The most popular ones are made by GE. The switch has heaters for different amperages and you buy one that matches your motor. Or, you can get them from Nyle which is usually less expensive.

[Paul_H]

 Don,
Yes,the motor I put in the unit could be wired either way but I made sure that it was 220 V and that the rotation was correct (clockwise)

I was talking on the phone last night to another DH4000 owner who lives an hour and a half from me.We have sent each other work if too busy.I told him about the problems I've had and that it turned out it was the switch.
He said that his system switch burned out quite awhile back and that he replaced it with a standard 240 v switch that he adapted to fit into the controller.
I explained to him that from what I have learned from this thread,he is risking serious damage to his whole system,maybe even a fire.When I get the two switches,I'll mail one over to him.

[Ironwood]

PaulH,

  Wow what a hassle. I know one specialty mill and kiln here in Pa. who keeps a whole EBAC LD3000 spare on hand,  expensive but it keeps him going. I guess it depends on your volume/time/ cost  factors. I certainly can't afford that but he has shared a lot  of info with me as to how to keep my LD3000 healthy as he has run his for years and years and knows the ins and outs. Good luck Reid

[Paul_H]

Well,the saga continues. I changed out the switch this week and flipped it on and the unit started right up. I had the humidity set at 95 RH and the temp at 140 F to start the load of Alder.I went in the chamber to make a final check before closing the doors and it shut down again.
Went back and flipped the system switch again but it tripped immediatly.Let it alone for a couple of minutes and tried the switch again.The fan came on but tripped after a half minute.
Thought maybe it was a problem with the heating coils so I reset the temp below the outside temp.Same thing happened again after 30 seconds or so.

Phoned Nyle and was told that there had been problems with the system switches so I tried the extra one that I had and got the same results.

The only thing that seemed out of line was inside the control box there is a transformer that was loose where it screws into the bottom of the box.Wondered if it was a ground problem but tightening didn't change anything. And the unit inside the chamber I noticed that the two wires that go into the bottom of the compresser were warm to the touch but as far as I know,the compresser wasn't coming on.

I'm totally baffled  :-\

[devo]

Is the compresser supposed to be starting with everything else? Maybe a locked compresser?

Do you have a clamp on ampmeter, or know someone who does. Checking the current in the wires going to the fan and compresser when you try to start up may help you find the source of the problem.

I don't know much about kilns, but electricity in general I'm pretty good with and sounds like the problem could be something to do with those warm wires.

[Paul_H]

Devo,
The compressor is not supposed to come on until the temp reaches some where around 80 F and because I have the RH set at 95 it should definately not come on. The last thing I checked though,was to put a lighter on the heat sensor in the chamber and when it showed 115 F,I went in and started the unit and set the RH down to 45 which kicked the compressor on.

At least I think it came on because there was the normal "click" at the panel that happens when the compressor turns on.If the compressor is locked,is there an easy fix?

I will ask around and see if I can borrow a clamp ampmeter.

I sure appreciate your help.

[DR Buck]

This is scary thread. :-\ .   My new DH4000 is sitting in the shed waiting to be installed.   How old is your unit Paul?

[Paul_H]

DR_Buck

I bought it in June 2002 and first used it in October 02 and it has worked like a dream until a few weeks ago.It seems my problem with this is unique because there are other owners here on the forum and none have mentioned having these issues.

I think you will like the DH4000 although a few times in the past weeks I've thought about grabbing a board and giving it a sound thrashing   ???

[devo]

My thought that mabey the compresser was locked was just an idea. I didn't know if it was starting with everything else or not. As I said I don't know much about kilns. Sounds like the compresser is totaly seperate circuit. Still don't understand the warm wires though. Is anything else wired to the switch you changed? If not theres not much left that can be the problem. You have changed the motor, and the switch (twice), so all that is left is the wires themselves (in theory anyway).

[ronwood]

Paul_H,

Have you tried to move the power from the compressor. Warm wires to the compressor indicate to much current being draw. It could be that the compressor motor windings are shorted out causiing excessive. Do you have a wiring diagram that we could look at.

Ron

[devo]

Ron,

Paul faxed me a wiring diagram last night and the warm wires are likely the compresser crankcase heater and is normal. The compesser and chamber heater are wired through a relay and shouldn't cause the problem Paul is describing. I'm thinking based on something Paul described earlier, that the problem is in a wire. He said early in this that when the motor was taken off its mounts and the fan blade removed the motor would run, but when bolted back down it wouldn't. That made me think that the position of the wire has something to do with it, since the motor and the start switch have been changed. Probably will find if it is the wire that the insulation has been crushed where it enters the motor.

P.S. Ron, I haven't forgotten about those plans, I'm trying my best to get the furnace done so I can send them to ya, but I seen to be moving a little slower this past week or so. I'll talk to buddy again and see if I can send them to you as is.

[ronwood]

Devo & Paul_H,

When the new motor was installed does the connection to the wiring occur inside the motor ie (a box mounted on the motor) . Not knowing the actual installation I wondering if the insulation on the wire may have failed near a strain relief.  Also could that wire be replaced easily.

Devo  Thanks for remembering the plans.

Ron

[Paul_H]

Ron and devo,

I will try the wires when I get back and see if there is a problem there.I still have plenty of slack to shorten up the wires and replace the ends.

I wasn't very clear on the part about the motor running when unbolted.What happened was I had it sitting out on the unit without the fan and it worked but when bolted in place again,it still worked until the fan was put back on,then the problems started again.


Thanks.

[Ga_Boy]

Paul,

I have been following this post.

The only thing I can offer is my 45 and a full magazine, this wont fix the motor, gut it sure will put it out of your misery and might make you feel better.  I know I fell better when I go through 500 rounds.

Keep the faith..


Mark

[ronwood]

Paul_H,

I know this may be a silly question but did the fan spin free? Wondering if it 1s possible that it was binding somewhere when the motor is reinstalled.

Ron

[Paul_H]

Thanks for the offer Mark but I spent some time in a batting cage on Saturday so I feel better  :D

Ron,
Yes the fan spins free with no noise or vibration to speak of.

[Paul_H]

I went over to the kiln this morning and tried a few different attacks on the problem and decided to change the wire harness that goes from the terminal block in the unit to the motor.It is 3-14, around 3' long and rated 105 celsius and I replaced it with a chunk that is rated 60 celsius.

While I was in the hardware store I met up with a freind that had a clamp ampmeter and he dropped by and did a test. The motor used 15 amp on starting and dropped down to a consistant 3 amps but the unit would shut off after 30 seconds again.
We grabbed one of the switches off of the two circulating fans and tried it again and the unit stayed on and now the Alder in the kiln is finally cooking.

I suppose I should have tried that last week but didn't even consider that both new switches that were sent out from Maine would be faulty.The odd thing is that  one of the new switches that wouldn't run the fan in the unit,works to run the circulating fan in the chamber.All the motors are the same rating  ???

The switch specs are

FL.  amp- 3
Hertz DC 50/60
Delay   94
Trip amps -4.05


And I doulble checked the voltage with the meter and it is 220 at the plug.

[devo]

Glad to hear you got it running Paul. I hope your customer has been understanding. I wondered about the possibility that you got 2 bad switches, but what are the odds? Sounds like Nyle needs to get after thier supplier about that!

[Paul_H]

devo
My customer was pretty happy to hear it was running again because he was looking at having to buy some KD Alder to finish his job even though he has almost 2000 bf in the kiln.
I appreciate the help that you gave on this problem and I hope that this thread may save someone else grief in the future.