Stumped?

[Bibbyman]

Twenty years ago dad could tell you who cut a tree in our area buy looking at the stump as each person tends to have their own style.  (The reason he can't today is because most of his contemporaries have stopped making stumps long ago.)

The white oak stave timber was recently cut from my cousins' farm next to ours this spring.  I took my camera on a recent mushroom hunt and took some pictures.  Each stump tells a story about the how the tree was felled.  :P


Here's a typical stump from this crop.  What do you see?


View from the other side.


Stump with others.

[Paul_H]

WOW,   There is no visible hinge wood,cuts don't meet,and it looks like they couldn't decide where and what they wanted the tree to do.It looks like all the rest were cut off as well.A Beaver with a saw maybe. ;)

[Kevin]

What I see is inexperience and an accident waiting to happen.
That`s a classic dutchman.

[Bud Man]

Pinched Blade had to be cut out ?

[Tillaway]

Those are better than ones I was looking at earlier this year.  One of the landowners was doing some "recreational" falling.  He should have got himself killed.  I almost took the camera, they were unbelievable.  He probably went back to the city and told all his friends how good of a faller he is. :

btw... Mexican crews cut like that, I've seen them do it in the Redwoods.  They are across the border one day then someone hands them a saw and tells them to go cut down trees the next..

[DanG]

You're right, Tillaway. This is the "work" of a totally inexperienced faller.  Looks like something I would have done, years ago. I'd never laid my hands on a chainsaw till I bought a Mc-Cough-a-lot and went to the woods with it. Some of my stumps looked even worse than these. It's a miracle I didn't kill myself, but I eventually learned, on my own. Never had ANYBODY give me any pointers, till I joined the ForestryForum. This is a GREAT subject to be talking about. This thread could be saving someone's life, even as we type!  :P

[Bibbyman]

One thing that's hard to see from the pictures is how out of square he is cutting the butt of the log.  The two cuts slope in opposite directions as if he's too lazy to bend over to hold his saw level. After looking at hundreds of stumps on the job,  virtually all were cut the same.

Looks like he judges the direction of lean and does not attempt to direct or control it.  Note the aborted cut lower down on the stump – this says he changed his mind and moved up for another guess.   :

Looks like he saws until the middle or until the gap starts to close.  Then he cuts a notch opening – not that it's going to do him any good with the almost horizontal cut so deep.  Then he thought he should notch it some more and cuts it a little deeper the second time.

Then he cuts like hell from the backside and hopes it does not split up on him.  Note the splinter and break on the second photo and the break across the face of the stump.  He's sawing until the tree leaves the stump rather than making his exit. 8)

As a result,  he fell a tree out of control and put himself in more danger than necessary.  He also produced a log out of square and with a crack in the butt that,  if it's not showing now,  will by the time the board is dried. >:(  



This one must have went down fighting! Note too the lower cut that was for what?  

Here you can see all the fracture and the pulled splinters.

[Ron Scott]

Obviously not an experienced sawyer. They wouldn't last long on a veneer log job or any of mine until sent out for training.

Our "good looking" stumps are part of the immediate landscape and must be "visually pleasing". 12" or less in height for sawlogs and 8" or less in height for pulpwod and square across, no splinters or "white wood" left hanging or splintered.

[Frank_Pender]

If OSH A  "saw" that around here someone rear end wouyld be in a "sling" for sure.   There would be a fine for each stump looking like those in the photos.  ??? They would be off the job and in debt for years. :'(

[Tillaway]

I have seen that inexperienced people make sloping back cuts because they believe it will somehow force the tree in the intended direction eliminating any need for wedges. (I have had some bozo tell me this.)  You can see how in the first pictures the cutter "beavered" the face out.  A clear sign of someone with little saw experience.  They can't get their face cuts to even come close to matching up.  I really doubt the cutter here even carried wedges or knew what they are for.  Did the mill accept the logs is what I want to know.  And if so did the square the butts before bucking?  If they didn't, how did they make the trim requirements?

[Bibbyman]

Old stumps tell a story too.  Dad would point out old stumps and note ones that were hollowed out.  They may not have been hollow when they were cut but had bad centers.  Most of this was caused by deliberately burning the forest off each year – a common practice up until after WWII.  One old hollow stump may not be enough evidence but if you seen many in one area,  the chances of finding scars and brown rot in live trees as well.

This stump was about 20 yards from the old hollow stump.  Note the scar left of center and the brown rot.  Note too the butted off butt chunk to the right.

In this case,  I say the farm was heavily cut over 75 to 100 years ago and what was left burned in an attempt to create pasture.

[Kevin]

Anyone see the open face notch on the cover of Sawmill & Woodlot?
I prefer to make the cut using a hinge with the face cut a little different.
That cut is usually made on a tree that is on the side of a hill but he appears to be cutting on flat ground ... with no eye protection, although it appears the saw chain isn`t kicking out any chips and the saw is  probably not running.
My method ...

[Cedar Eater]

My "stump farm" shows that I'm still making mistakes, but hopefully not as bad as these. I have trouble getting my notch cuts to meet, but I'm getting better at it. Cedar is pretty forgiving, but I had to cuts some ash recently and that was humbling. :-[

[Kevin]

Eater,
I don`t know if this will help you but cut your angle face cut first then your straight cut to meet that.
It`s easier to meet the angle cut with the straight cut.
Then you can make your back cut just a little higher to get your hinge.

[Tillaway]

Kevin,
I was taught the exact opposite.  The first straight cut in is how you "gun" the the tree.  The slope cut that completes the cut has to match at the corners or you leave a dutchman.  Starting with the slope cut impedes your accuracy.

Start with the straight cut and use the sights on the saw or in some cases use the handlebar to aim the tree where you want it to go.  The slope cut has to meet the end of the flat cut evenly all the way across.  This way you accuracy is greatly improved.  You also have to leave a hinge of holding wood that is equally thick all the way across the stump or the tree will pull towards the thicker side.

[Paul_H]

I'm in agreement with Tillaway.Start horizontal cut for depth,and aim.Bring slope cut (undercut) up to meet.Back cut in level,mindfull of hinge wood.We always take the undercut from the stump,and have a flush cut log.

In the days of axes and misery whips,it was practical to take the undercut from the tree.It was easier to make the horizontal cut with the saw,then chop in and down with the axe for the undercut.

[Kevin]

Evidently we had different instructors.
I haven`t seen anything documented but I`ll have a look at the books tomorrow.
I distinctly remember my instructor telling us to make the angle cut first on the conventional(common) or humbolt face cut.
It seems easier to meet the angle cut with a straight cut than visa versa.
Anyone have a reference or rule for this?

[Tillaway]

That would have gotten me knocked upside the head
... try Pratical Timber Falling by D. Douglas Dent.

That first cut is crutial to setting the depth of the face and direction of tree.  Everything matches up to that cut.  Starting with the undercut is easier, but much harder to get an accurate tree placement.  I haven't ever seen any fallers anywhere on the west coast that start with the undercut first.

[Kevin]

Till,
If the angle cut is into the tree one third of the tree and meets the horizontal cut forming a good notch on the face of the tree what difference does it make?
Is there a specific mechanical reason for making your first cut the horizontal cut other than proper depth because I`m not having any trouble setting the depth of cut by cutting the angle cut first.
Is there really a right and wrong to this or is it merely preference?
OSHA doesn`t mention the cutting sequence for the conventional or humbolt notch but they do explain the the open face notch in great detail although they don`t leave a hinge on it according to their illustration.

[Tillaway]

Kevin,
It is pretty much a black and white issue out here.  Horizontal is always first.  If you uses the sights on the saw to "gun" tree you will be more accurate.  The sights on the saw are used on the horizontal cut.  You start your cut into the tree in the direction you want the tree to go.  Part of finishing your cut is lining the saw sights up with your intended target.  This is very important out here because putting the top 10 feet one way or the other is sometimes critical to saving the log.

Starting with the slope cut makes the sights unusable therefore your accuracy suffers.  If you go ahead and gun the tree after making the slope cut first you usually end up cutting too deep to make the correctional adjustment.  This can be a problem if you are trying to wedge the tree.  You may not have enough width in your back cut to start a wedge and leave acceptable holding wood.

Something else that is done out here is that a humboldt cut is used by 99.9% of the pro fallers.  This is done for log scaling purposes and has one safety advantage if executed correctly.  That is the "stump shot" is better able to protect you from the log sliding back across the stump.  The coventional cut has less ability to catch on the stump shot to protect you.

I guess all in all greater accuracy equals greater safety.

[DanG]

You guys keep this up. I'm finding answers to questions I hadn't even thought of yet. :P   I was thinking I was a self-taught felling feller, but it looks like I wuz just self-confused. :-/

Till, can you elaborate a little more on the "saw sights" thing?  I kinda think I'm getting your drift, but some more detail may save me a skint place on the brain stem, or some other unpleasantry.

[Tillaway]

DanG... There are actually sights on the chain cover and flywheel cover of professional saws.  They are two raised ridges that are designed to be line op just like rifle sights.  These sights are 90 degrees to the bar.  You cut in... and get down on your knees... and look down the sights just like a rifle (gunning).  That is where your face cut (undercut) is aimed.  Some saws may not have them so use the handle bar.  The handle bar is often (but not always) roughly 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the bar.

[Kevin]

Stihl is using the method I described in their safety PDF manual ...

http://www.stihlusa.com/manuals/chainsaw_safety_english.pdf

page 19

[Ron Scott]

An excellent discussion from those with expierience. This subject would make a good video on the Forum.

[Tillaway]

You are right Kevin, the printed instructions say to do this but if you look at the illustration, it demonstrates gunning.  Either the illustrator drew it wrong or the technical writer made a mistake.  The illustration (on the left) is bang on what I was taught.  It almost looks to me that Stihl needs to do a better job editting this manual.  Page 19 for those who wish to look.

[Kevin]

Ok, I`m almost done ...

Husqvarna Manual

Notching

Start making the upper notch cut on the side of the tree facing the felling direction.
Look through the kerf as you saw the lower cut so you do not saw too deep into the trunk.
The notch should be deep enough to create a hinge of sufficient width and strength.
The notch opening should be wide enough to direct the fall of the tree as long as possible.

Page 62
Basic Rules For Felling Trees
Husqvarna Operators Manual

There seems to be two methods for making the felling notch, I don`t know if it`s an East/West thing or old/new thingy.

Use what works best for you!

 I`m outa here ... for now   8)

[Tillaway]

Here are some pictures of west coast cutters in action.  While you are looking at these be sure to check out the whole album.
http://www.madsens1.com/borde1.htm

[splinters]

speaking as another self confused I have questions. You speak of notch up/down and a humbolt cut. Any advantages of one over the other and what is a humbolt.

[Corley5]

Those pics at Madsen's are impressive.  Seeing those guys cutting from spring boards gives me chills .  Not for me

[Kevin]

Splinters,
This should explain it ...

http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/logging_advisor/manual/felling/cuts/notches/notches.html

[L. Wakefield]

DanG... There are actually sights on the chain cover and flywheel cover of professional saws.  They are two raised ridges that are designed to be line op just like rifle sights.  These sights are 90 degrees to the bar.  You cut in... and get down on your knees... and look down the sights just like a rifle (gunning).  That is where your face cut (undercut) is aimed.  Some saws may not have them so use the handle bar.  The handle bar is often (but not always) roughly 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the bar.

   Ouch! Please don't tell me you also make the cut while still on your knees??! That would kinda ruin the quick getaway scenario, eh?    lw

[Kevin]

That`s not for making the cut , that`s to pray it falls the way you want it to because you made your cuts backwards.   :D

[Tillaway]

Wise guy ;D if you lived south of the equator, then you would have an excuse. ;D Canadians...Paul...back me up here with your fellow countryman. Of yea thats right hes from Ontario. : ;D ;D

[Paul_H]

Tillaway,We're not really a part of Canada out here.We're on waivers,and that State of Jefferson,or Cascadia, seem like our best option. ;D
Those Easterners seem like an aimless lot,what with sights pointed at the ground and all. :D

[Paul_H]

I better be carefull.My three closest neigbours are from OntarioMake that four neighbours,three named Jeff....?


Hey Kevin,Saskatchewan.Lets pick on them!
No,can't do that either.My wife said her mum is from Saskatoon. >:(

[psychotic1]

Hey!  I thought it was everybody pick on the Newfies?

I even heard a lady in canadian customs in BC pickin' on em.

Bruce

[Bibbyman]

I posted this picture a couple of weeks back of a nice stack of walnut logs.  About half were veneer and the rest good grade logs.  


As Mary sorted them out,  I was shown one log that would have been a veneer except that it had been busted up on felling.  The log broker said about 4' had already been trimmed off the butt.


Some damage is pretty obvious.


Some cracks show up in a few days and only get worse.

I got to looking and about 1 out of 10 butt cut logs had some kind of stump crack damage.  Sure enough,  the loggers were using the 'match cut' method of felling.  In short,  saw one side and then the other until the tree fell.  

I've seen this many times from loggers that had migrated from Southern Missouri.   I've pointed out to one logger how we use the notch and plunge cut to avoid damaging the butt cut but got the reply that 'I'd be laughed out of the woods down south.'  It's like religion and politics to them.  I don't see any way they'll adopt different methods.

[Ron Wenrich]

Also called jumping a tree.  I know one guy who used to use a very limited notch, especially on veneer butts.  He had no problem, since he knew that every split tree was money out of his pocket.  He also bored all the hearts to help eliminate the split.

I think a lot of loggers down south use the "pay-as-you-go" method for timber.  The pay for timber is dependent on what they get from the gate.  Really not much incentive to limit breakage or even do a very good job of bucking.

I've seen a lot of logs ruined due to poor bucking. Sweep, split, pooly positioned knots.  Sweep is a big killer of grade.

[rebocardo]

> That is the "stump shot" is better able to protect you
> from the log sliding back across the stump.

This is why I think they tell you on an open face notch to make the back cut even with the intersecting angle. That way it pulls off the stump an unto the ground. When you cut two inches above the notch with an open face notch, close to the ground, the tree does not break all the way off and stands a good chance of coming back at you once the branches hit.

I realized the other day I had actually never seen a stump come off the log because once the tree starts to move, so do I and my eyes are usually on the upper part of the trunk.

[Kevin]

You'll get that with too high a back cut.
The wood actually pulls from the center of the tree and there is enough fiber at the hinge to keep the tree on the stump after felling.
I wouldn't make a back cut even with the apex intentionally.

[Stephen_Wiley]

Although the first half of this thread is a year old it still is indicitive of changes occuring throughout the logging world.

Unfortunately, not necessarily to the better.

Falling and bucking methods which were refined by many good men here in the Northwest.  Have failed to be taught to the mostly latin/american crews now beating the brush.

Kevin's posts on felling techniques would have found him without a job back in the 70's here in Oregon.  Directional falling starts with the horizontal face cut.   The under cut was on the stump opposed to on the log as Kevin has pictured. (Leave the wood on the log).

However,  Kevin's techniques are sound in the safe operation of felling.  So please for those of you learning, keep in mind there are two schools of skilled techniques of  felling. They have been developed first in logging and in the past few years arborists have begun to focus on .

I guess Kevin thought that the sighting bars were for aiming at the ground.........where he hopes the tree will go! :D

[Kevin]

We had fun with this one!
I use three notches, the open face,conventional and humbolt when saving the butt log.
There's no need to gun the tree in some cases, the secret is getting the corners of the notch where you need them.
Even when you gun the tree with your saw it isn't exact enough for me.
Gunning sticks are much more accurate when putting the corners of the notch where they need to be.
Once the corners are marked the saws sighting line doesn't mean much.
This is a humbolt on a saw log ...