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Forestry winch Adjustment?/Problems (Merged topics)

Started by Al B, January 30, 2005, 06:54:36 PM

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Al B

Hello everyone.   Retired and doing what I want, which is trying to become somewhat skilled at harvesting wood.  I like to be in the woods and don't really push hard.

Recently purchased a small tractor and a Fransgard 2800 winch.
Between where the cable goes from the top, -straight down, to wind on the drum,- and the drum itself,  it slipped out from behind the metal guard, which was positioned incorrectly, apparently at the factory.  Other than a couple of "flat spots" in the cable, it didn't seen to cause any harm. 
At any rate, before I spotted this, I tried adjusting the clutch.

I did mark the adjustment bolts original position before loosening them.
I pulled a small log to test and it worked fine.  Then muckled onto a couple of larger ones.  It pulled a couple of feet and stopped just as if the log was hung up.  Now the winch will pull in with no load, however with even a small load it will not wind in despite numerous adjustments, - (even tried a quarter -half turn at a time for about 10-12 attempts).

All appears to point toward the clutch adjustment.  My question is am I overlooking  something else?  Do the adjustment bolts have to be the exact same distance?  Is it so sensitive that even with methodical adjustments I went by the "right spot"?

I have the book and when I go by it I end up very close to where my "original"position marks are.  Same results.

This winch is only a couple of months old and has not been used hard.
The preceeding is my main concern, but I also have a couple of other questions.

What do you use, if anything, to lube the cable itself?

After using the end "hook", with logs also attached to the sliders, the last 10 feet now looks like a pig' tail, all spiraled around.  I think it happened fron the end hook wanting to rotate and the other logs not letting it turn.  Do you folks use the end hook at all?  A swivel?

Appreciate any and all help.  My wife says I really need it!
Al B

chet

Al,
Sorry I can't help ya with you winch problem as I am not familiar with that make or model. But I can welcome you to the forum, I'm sure someone else here will be able to shed some light on your problem.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Al B

Chet, Thanks for the welcome.  I have lurked for a while, and have to say this new server really moves.  "Holy ole' Baldface"!

chet

Quote from: Al B on January 30, 2005, 07:25:42 PM
I have lurked for a while, and have to say this new server really moves.  "Holy ole' Baldface"!


Ya got dat right.  :)  It trucks along way faster than my one finger can type.   ;D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

thecfarm

I never used the end hook on the end to haul logs out or anything at all.Buy another slide if you need more chockers.I replaced my cable a couple times and never put the hook back on.I do not lube the cable at all.Can't help you out with the clutch problem.I have a Norse and never had to adjust the clutch. Welcome to the forum.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ed_K

 I run the 2800 also. On the clutch adjust to the book. I have problems on cold mornings with the cable realing in by itsself if the pto is engaged. And it not wanting to pull. It also is very hard to pull out even with the pto disengaged. I hook to a log and pull on the rope just enough to bring the clutch plate up to the flywheel, and let it slip awhile to warm it up.
This has worked for this winter. On the cable if your using a slide to winch a hitch sideways it pigtail the cable real good and it won't straighten out. I ruined my first one this way, now I use a pulley and treesaver strap to move hitches sideways. I use both the hook on the cable end and the slides to hook to logs. If two logs are aways apart, pull them individually to a straight line, then hook all and pull in.
Ed K

Al B

 "On the clutch adjust to the book. I have problems on cold mornings with the cable realing in by itsself if the pto is engaged. And it not wanting to pull. It also is very hard to pull out even with the pto disengaged."

Thanks Ed for the advice. 

I have also experience the cable being hard to pull out, which is why I asked about some sort of lube.  Thought perhaps a little bit of grease or bar oil wiped on it would help this and also the icing which according to my dealer is why then cable will pull in by itself.

I experienced this a little different from what you did.  Twice it happened that when letting go of the rope, wanting to stop the pulling, the cable just kept reeling in.  I had to jump over and turn the tractor off to stop it.  This seems like a real safety hazard, and could cause some bodily harm.   I'm really not comfortable wondering if the cable is going to stop when I want it to. 
I called the dealer that sold it and he said it was due to icing.

These Are made in Denmark, where they are certainly used in the cold weather.  Dosen't sem right that they would sell them with this condition being a "maybe"  thing.

I have adjusted the clutch according to the book.

Check me out please.

-Disengage the PTO
-loosen locknuts
-pull lever or rope as if you were wanting to "pull"
-Finger tighten the bolts
-Let go of lever/rope
-Further tighten bolts 1 ¾ turns
-tighten locknuts

Seem simple and straight forward, but I still get the same results.



Al B

This question is in reference to my other one on Jan. 30.  I'm not trying to drag on, but this problem could be potentially dangerous. 

As stated, I have experienced "Iceing- up" (that's what the dealer called it), a couple of times when pulling in and the cable would not stop. Had to shut off tractor. Both times the cable was dragging through snow.  First time it was 0 degrees F.  Second it was in the 20's.


If this is inherent to this type of winch, so be it.  If not, I would like to find a fix.

Do other makes of winches have "Iceing- up" problems in cold weather?

What can be done to  prevent it from happening?



Ed_K

 I took mine apart and found no solution to keeping it from iceing up. The clutch fiber is wet and just like sticking your tongue on metal it'll stick till it warms up. Turn the pto on and let it run, when the cable tightens to the end it will brake free. Then apply some presure to the clutch till it warm up, and you'll be ok for the day.
Ed K

Woodhog

I run a Norse 400 (hinged Butt Plate type)..

Use it in all temperature ranges -20 C to days around freezing, wet snow dry snow etc. never had this problem you refer too...

When it is working if you just ride the clutch lever a little and let it
slip it should get hot and dry out the plates...

Regarding your main line turned into a coil spring at the hook end..

Mine will do this at times... If I then put on a real big load 4 -5  16 foot spruce logs and give it a real good work out the cable will
straighten out again...

Also you can put a choker on a stout tree, hook on the mainline
and pull it really tight and leave it sit all night that way, this will sometimes pull out the kinks in the end of the cable....

The most agrivating problem with my winch is foul turns, (one turn will get jammed under another and just as you  have dragged the
d#### cable to the log it  stops reeling off the winch. you then have to hook to a tree and pull it loose with the tractor.. or sometimes you can pull it in a few turns on the winch and give it
a sharp pull and it will break free on the drum..

Have fun and be prepared for lots of walking....

slowzuki

My friends father uses a 3 point mounted winch in his operations.  Every night he hangs his able out to the telephone pole in their yard to make it easier to work the next day.

Ken

SwampDonkey

Alot of folks do as slozuki says at the end of the day. Makes life easier starting the next day. ;)

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

I have a Norse too and have never had a iceing problem,but when it gets down to 10,I head for the house.Warmer days are coming.I have the same problems with the foul turns too.But usally this is caused by twitching too much or pulling in a hard area I find out.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Al B

It was just one of those things...that happen.  Refer to the first post in  this thread and you will see what my problems were with my winch. 

I went to the dealer to talk in person with the head mechanic.  Took about 5 minutes to narrow down what apparently was wrong.  He asked me if I oiled the chain, on the winch.  I said I did, about once a week,  as the book says to do.  He said..."A HUH!  Thats your problem!"  I met his statement, with my usual blank stare that says huhhh?

He went on to say that the chain should never be oiled.  It gets on the clutch lining...da.da...  He suggests replacing the chain about every two years - relatively cheap, he says. 

So this is an obvious cause of my not being able to pull anything (clutch slipping) no matter where I adjusted it.  Made sense to me.

Now he had my full attention, and went on to say that he thought it was also the cause of my "icing - up" problem.  My most ass-tute response to this was, of course,  another "huhhh?.  Well, I guess under the right conditions (temps etc. ) this oil on the clutch can also get quite sticky and really gum things up to the point that I experienced.

Wow!  Two, completely opposite, -from one extreme to the other, -consequences from just oiling the chain.

I used two cans of break cleaner and just kept spraying the chain, hoping to get enough on the clutch to clean whatever oil there was on it. 

Re-ajusted clutch, according to book, and gave it a shot.  By jove, I think he is on to something here.  The winch pulled fine.  Didn't get a chance to use it a lot but, I did put quite a load on it successfully.

As to the other extreme -"Icing up".  I'm hoping he is right.  Time will tell.  Too warm today! (Isn't that a good thing?)

I was concerned enough about the "Icing up" problem to also email the Fransgard people, in Denmark.  Received a reply the next day that said I would be receiving a phone call from them.  Hasn't happen yet, but expect it will. 

Moral?  I don't know.   I did what the book said, but apparently a little too zealously. On their maintenance list, on the next line, right after "Lubricate the chain once a week", it says "no oil on clutch lining", as if it were a seperate maintance task, (or non-task?).   

Honestly, had it said "not to get any oil on the clutch when oiling the chain", it would have made a lot more sense to me.  But then keep in mind that I'm a guy who says huhh?  an awful lot.

leweee

Quote from: Al B on February 04, 2005, 05:54:52 PM


Moral?  I don't know.   I did what the book said, but apparently a little too zealously. On their maintenance list, on the next line, right after "Lubricate the chain once a week", it says "no oil on clutch lining", as if it were a seperate maintance task, (or non-task?).   

Honestly, had it said "not to get any oil on the clutch when oiling the chain", it would have made a lot more sense to me.  But then keep in mind that I'm a guy who says huhh?  an awful lot.


Al B   remember now english isn't denmarks first choice langauge of instruction. probable lost a bite in the translation ::) :D :D :D
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

J_T

Have found a good spray chain lube works on some things and don't run on every thing else ??? I get my new chain at a farm store is usuly cheper to buy a ten foot rool than a cut peice that you need. ??? Most time since I am tighter than DanG I take it off an old combine ;D
Jim Holloway

Al B


Al B remember now english isn't denmarks first choice langauge of instruction. probable lost a bite in the translation
Quote

Yeah, that's what I realized. 

So J T  What is the name of the chain lube you mentioned?

J_T

Shucks Al B I'm out or been to tight to buy any . :-[ But I'll go to Rual King and see and get back to you. :D :D
Jim Holloway

Al B

Thanks J_T.

Now listen...  You sound rather thrifty.  - I can appreciate that-  I don't want you to burn any extra gas going to get this info.  Whenever you are there next will be fine. 

I consider myself pretty thrifty at times.  The more sheds I build the more "stuff" I can store.  Been "re-cycling"  long before it was a politically correct word.

A few years ago the blasted feds made the towns use modern "recycling centers"  instead of a "dump".  This pretty much stopped "dump picking"  I really felt as if I'd lost a hobby.  People throw away some amazing stuff!

J_T

Al B Yep had me couple hundred tons stuff piled up here :D My rich neighbor called EPA till I finley just sold most of it now I got it spread out so it dont look like as much ;D Now I need a can crusher as I got about six hundred pounds lyng around. O yea the bank has been hunting my rich neighbor's skidsteer and dump truck ;DLast two things threw out were a cook stove I sold ten minete later for fifty bucks and a like new even had the books with it a kenmore pot scrubber dish washer man's wife wanted a quiet one ??? My wife says this one an't loud to her ;D
Jim Holloway

Al B

This is a follow up on my winch problems.  I did get a phone call from the Fransgard No. Amer. Sales Manager.  Seemed very knowledgeable, and patient.  Apparently he used to work in the woods, so he knows the subject well.

My winch is a 2800, but the larger models are built very similar.  So some of what he told me should pertain to those and some stuff to Forestry winches in general. 

His advice  - keep the ½ moon steel plate the pulley rests and turns on     
                                                                  ("Turning plate") well greased.

      -Lube the cable with grease
      -Lube the drive chain with grease
      -Don't transport logs attached to the cable – always use chain 
         Slots to transport.  Possibility of damaging the inards' –
         shaft/bearings - if a log hangs up.

Icing up – He acknowledged that it was possible, but quite uncommon.  He questioned me, trying to find the cause.  It appears that the clutch was not adjusted properly when I purchased it.  He did say that a lot of dealers do not know how to do it correctly.  (After adjusting it per his instructions, and comparing it to how it was when new, I strongly agree.)  Mine was way too tight which apparently had a lot to do with the ice, and erratic behavior.

He also pointed out that part No. 6, in parts diagram - a bracket at the bottom of the drum - sets the tension, which controls the cable pulling out. The two studs with nuts adjust this.  There is a fiber pad on this bracket, and it is possible to get ice here also.

The actual adjusting of the clutch is quite simple, and fast.  It is also not much related to the way the instruction book says to do it.  I will attempt to explain.

   -Loosen the two adjusting bolts and locknuts
   -Pull the clutch by the rope (No. 4) all the way up and over until it rests on the "stop".  (The "stop" has no part no.  It is a welded piece of steel that sits in the middle that limits the movement, to vertical, of the clutch (arm).  Not hard to spot.)
   -Now tighten the bolts –snug.
   -Tighten the locknuts
   -A way to check correctness is  - locate the small pin (No. 3) that is inside bottom part of clutch.  There are three of them.  Looking down from the top, you can only see one.  This pin should be between 11 and 12 o'clock, only 1/8 to ¼ inch to the left of top center, when the clutch is up against the "stop".

It is real simple.  If I didn't explain it well email me and I will try to explain further. 

It now is as powerful as its capabilities will allow.  Just as important it is a lot easier, and safer to use.  The "pull" required on the rope is a lot less than it was.

He said that he was working on a new instruction book.

At any rate, I was grateful to receive his help, and the winch appears to be working without any unusual occurrences.


farmerdoug

It is nice when company managers go out of their way to help when i really should be done by the dealers.  In my vegetable farming there is alot of specialized equipment that you just do not run down to the nearest farm equipment dealer and buy.  So I have found that most of the companies are quite willing to help as they need you just as much you need them for the business.  A friend several years ago bought a brand new beet topper for table(red) beets.  He started using it and it was just making a royal mess of things so the local dealer came out to see if he could help.  He could not find anything wrong with the machine.  So the company sent out a sales manager and still no solution.  Then a company mechanic and still no answer.  So finally they sent out one of the engineers that helped design it.  He followed it up and down the field for four hours.  Mind you all of this time it is making a mess that required the beets be hand pulled which is how he labors did the years before.  But without the tops you can guess their fits.  So at lunch the engineer crawls under the machine on his back and has a guy rotate the PTO shaft by hand.  He found the problm that took two weeks to solve.

They put the cutting blades on backwards at the factory.  My buddy was *pithed as he wasted 10 acres of beets and almost lost his contract.  The company gave him the machine for his problems after they righted the blades.  Five years later he sold it for more than he was originally charged as he stopped growing beets.
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

maple flats

I log with a Fransgard 4000 and have never had any problems with the clutch not working properly. When you have the clutch adjusted properly there should be no slip when pulling (pulling should always be done with the clutch lever pulled all the way. When the clutch is released there should be no movement even with an empty cable and with the PTO on. I always pull by the cable but never pull the cable up too tight so that the log or logs are free to move and turn without binding. I used to be a FRansgard dealer before I sold the business and we once had a bent drum shaft because the owner pulled the logs up too tight and when he turned the cable was too tight for the logs to turn freely and the log ends hit the blade and tried to swing the log from the short end of a long lever, the shaft was the weak link. Therefor if you do pull by the cable leave enough cable that it does not bind but you can still lift the end of the log. In doing it this way if you get stuck or come to a hill too steep you can release the load by tripping the dog, drive away to a better spot and re-winch the logs again. This is important especially with a smaller tractor or on wetter ground. Once you get the adjustment correct you should be pleased with the winch. If your tractor is marginal as far as weight vs. load you might be better off if you do pull by hooking the load to the blade which will pull from a lower point and thus not try to lit the front end of the tractor as a higher pull point would and even though the winch would likely minimize chances of flippin the tractor it could still throw the operator and cause serious injury or worse.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

J_T

Al B Got off my cheep spell and went to Rual King today  :D :DThis stuff I got today is called Sproctor called pullmore #71205 on yhe can it is for chains cable and a bunch of things three or four bucks a can from Woodstock Ill by way of Canada ??? 1-800-766-7655 Phone # off the can. What I uster get was good stuff haven't tried this yet. If you don't have any luck and want some let me know.
Jim Holloway

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