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Author Topic: Block heater for 353 Detriot  (Read 8204 times)

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Offline Barkman

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Block heater for 353 Detriot
« on: January 30, 2005, 05:48:33 pm »
I've been having some difficulty starting my skidder.  It's a Tree Farmer C3 (same size as C4, just older).  I purchased a block heater at Napa.  It's about a 3" coil with 3/4" pipe thread at one end.  I removed the pipe that a quick connect was coming from on the block, expecting to find a 3/4" hole under it to screw the block heater into, and, you guessed it, the hole is not the right size.  In fact, it's not even round.  Does anyone know if there is somewhere on the motor that I can remove a plug an screw this thing in?  I've also heard that I could instead use an 'engine heater' that would be installed in the hose, instead of on the block.  I would appreciate some guidance.  This seems like it should be a simple install, but I just want to make sure I'm choosing the best solution and installing it correctly.

Thanks!

Offline ehp

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2005, 05:54:37 pm »
I think I am following you but not sure. Your heater , does the water come in one end and out the other like a inline heater or is it a block heater.


Offline tnlogger

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2005, 06:04:45 pm »
I think what Baekman is saying is he has 2 quick connects on the motor block. we used to put some on our pickups and when we got to the wood lot and it was real cold we would hook the p/u to the skidder and run the p/u to the skidder with a set of heater hoses. let it run for a half hr or so to warm the coolent in the skidder made it crank better. :D that was way way back before glowplugs.
 gene
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Offline palmerstreeservice

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2005, 06:05:53 pm »
If you can't figure it out you can by for about $20-$30 a magnetic heater.  It works in the same basic way, you just put it on the oil pan and plug it in.  It doesn't take that long to heat up and it will warm your oil so it gets up in the uper end of the motor faster.

Offline Ed_K

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2005, 08:30:15 am »
 I got a 200 watt mag heater. if its below 20 degs its worthless. In the forestry mags theres a company that sells a inline heater that runs off propane. Anyone using something like it?
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Offline Minnesota_boy

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2005, 08:50:31 am »
I bought one of those magnetic heaters for the wife's car.  Changed cars.  New one has an aluminum oil pan.  >:( :D
The magnetic one I got was 150 watt.  The heater hose one I have is 1500 watt.  It has a pulser unit to move the warmed coolant to the engine and works pretty well when it is cold enough to need it.  So far this winter it hasn't been cold enough to need it.  If the car is in the unheated garage it will start fine to -45.  Gosh I like the new fuel injected cars.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Offline Barkman

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2005, 09:57:13 am »
Yes, tnlogger, exactly I am still operating before glowplugs. :D

Sorry I didn't explain myself better.  What I have is a setup where there are two quick connects already comming out of the motor, each through a plate with two bolts holding it on.  When I removed the plate attaching the bottom quick connect, I had hoped to find a 3/4" threaded hole and enough space to insert this 3" coil into the bottom of the water jacket.  Obviously, that's not what I found.  So, I don't know if I should just scrap the block heater and go buy a 'tank type' engine heater.  The tank type I would think I could rig to hook up to my existing quick connects and have the mission accomplished rather quickly?  Someone please stop me if my reasoning is flawed.  Or, if someone knows where on the 3-53 I can find a plug to remove, so I can screw my existing unit into, that would be much appreciated as well.  I've looked and don't see anything on either side.  The instructions that came with the heater are for applications on Cat or Mack motors.  The one for the Mack application entails drilling and tapping a hole to install it.  Even if I went out and bought the tools to do this, I wouldn't know where to drill the hole and guessing where to drill a hole in your motor just doesn't seem smart to me.   ???  There's a lot I don't know, but at least I do know what I don't know.  Cheaper to ask before you break something than after.

I had looked at those magnetic types and wondered if they would work.  The times I have a problem starting it is when its between 10 F and -20 F.

Thanks for the replies.  It won't be the last mechanical question I'll ask.  Everyting I fix on this machine, it's the first time I've ever done it and I'll try to be more clear next time.

Offline ehp

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2005, 10:21:37 am »
if it was me I would get a inline heater, and hook it up in your quick couple lines, that way it heats the fluid in the block and not your rad, just one thought , why do you not use your quick couples, they work real good and as long as your truck will start so will your skidder

Offline Barkman

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2005, 11:05:24 am »
Is an inline, the same as a tank type heater?  See this link, so I can tell if we're talking about the same animal
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/ProductDisplay/s-10101/p-2473/c-10101

The reason I haven't setup the quick connect system to my truck is my newer, more reliable truck has the new coolant that is incompatible with the regular old green stuff that the skidder has.  My other truck is an '84 GMC 1 ton dump with an older 8.5' Diamond V-plow.  A nice plowing rig, but I haven't had the time  to do all the work it needs, so I don't want to rely on it always starting.  I have a 1200' driveway and also have to plow a path to my wood boiler etc.  So, if my plow truck is down, the skidder is my backup.  I've had to plow with it twice in the last two years.  Both times because of broken parts on the pickup's plow in the middle of a storm.  So, I'd prefer the skidder not be dependant on the plow truck.

Again, thanks so much for the help and advice. 

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2005, 11:15:02 am »
It seems that most of the times in my life I have spent working in the woods have been in the dead of winter, so I have had lots of experience trying to get frozen skidders started. The most effective thing one can do is park the skidder at night where you can drive up to it. Equip both the skidder's and your truck's heater hoses with quick diconnects. First thing on the job, hook up your truck to the skidder and let your truck warm up the skidder, about 20 minutes used to do it. THe only other concern on those cold mornings is to make sure you have good adequate batteries in your equipment.
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Online Jeff

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2005, 11:16:11 am »
oops, should have paid attention to the warning someone else was posting.  I would be changing antifreeze in the skidder then.
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Offline Barkman

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2005, 11:23:43 am »
Jeff

I'm not certain what you meant by your last post.  Did you mean that you can change the skidder over to the new coolant.  The orange stuff?  Or that by hooking my newer pickup up to the skidder that it would be changing (mixing) the old coolant with the new.  I know you can't mix them, but can you run the new coolant in an old system?  I didn't think you could.

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2005, 11:30:26 am »
Well, I dont know. I can't think of any reason why you cant run new coolants in old systems. I can see where you might not want to run old formulas in new sytems for one reason or another.  Seems like it would be easy enough to check, to see if the new coolants were compatible replacements for old.  Over the years, I have never worried about what coolant to use where. We buy antifreeze in 55 gallon drums at the mill and use it where ever it is needed. Sometimes its green sometimes its orange.  Boss uses the same antifreeze in his new trucks and personal vehicles (he's anal about flushes and coolant replacement yearly) as we do our front end loades, skidders and log and lumber trucks.

I dont know if there is a difference honestly but its the first thing I would check. (If it was me I know what I would do. :D)
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Offline Barkman

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2005, 11:33:18 am »
It must be that years of experience breeds that kind of confidance ;D

I'll let you know in 24 years.

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2005, 03:05:44 pm »
There is a difference in antifreezes and some aren't mixable, even is the same color. Stay with an ethelyne glycol based antifreeze and you should be ok. Some antifeezes are a permanent blend and if mixed with any other type they loose their permanancy, so they tell me.  :P

If mixed, then you should flush.
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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2005, 05:07:44 pm »
Thats what I meant. :D If it was me, I would flush the skidder system and use what I use in the pickup.  I thought I mentioned that above that we flush the systems at work and replace with what we have. We dont mix.
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Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2005, 08:29:25 pm »
Yes, you're right. Now I understand what you said. ;) It would be nice if there was a standard antifreeze. They tell me that of you use the permanent type antifreeze such as that used by Toyota that you don't have to flush, just add when you need more as long as you have the same in pick-up and skidder.

I guess that there is even a difference now between the permanent types that you shouldn't mix. You need to know the year of the vehicle for correct anti freeze to use. So they tell me.  :P
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Offline Mark M

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detroit
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2005, 08:26:51 pm »
Jeff it sounds like your boss might be buying on price instead of on spec. Might be a good idea to find out a little more about that coolant. The diesel stuff needs special additives otherwise he might be in for a unpleasant and expensive surprise. He shouldn't need to change every year so he might be spending more than he should.

Ron's right, it's best not to mix, but if you do are not likely to cause any damage. If you mix one of the conventional (usually green or yellow) coolants with an  extended life coolants (usually red or orange) with you will dilute out some of extended life additives and loose the long life benifits. You will still have a coolant that is better than conventional but without the long life benefits. If you add less than 10% there isn't a problem.

The reason this cause problems is some of the additives are diluted in the process and there is no way to replenish them since they are not in the supplemental coolant additives or extenders. You can add more concentrate but then you get too much glycol and run into heat transfer problems so this doesn't work.

The best thing to do is find out what coolant you are using and then only use that kind.

One thing else I might mention is Detroit Diesel as a rule doesn't like phosphate in their engines. I doubt this is a problem with the 353 but it is with the newer engines. They do have some excellent coolants so there shouldn't be a problem finding something good.

While I'm add it, the magnetic heaters don't work as well not only because they are only about 1/5 the wattage but also most people use them on on oil pan. A heater in the coolant will circulate hot water so the heat moves around. This doesn't happen in the pan.



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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2005, 11:07:00 am »
Mark, the anitifreeze is bought on specs for the deisels (trucks and loaders) but then used in everything else.
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Offline Mark M

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Re: Block heater for 353 Detriot
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2005, 11:15:26 am »
Here is Cat's recommendation on coolant service life for equipment. Might be a good idea to see which ASTM spec in meets. A lot of diesel coolant must be precharged.

Mark

Cat ELC---12,000 Service Hours or Six Years

Commercial Coolant meeting the Caterpillar EC-1 Specification---6,000 Service Hours or Six Years

Cat DEAC---3000 Service Hours or Three Years

Commercial Heavy-Duty Coolant Antifreeze that meets ASTM D6210---3000 Service Hours or Two Years

Commercial Heavy-Duty Coolant Antifreeze that meets ASTM D4985*---3000 Service Hours or One Year

* Requires treatment with at SCA at initial fill