The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: firefighterontheside on November 08, 2017, 05:37:50 pm

Title: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 08, 2017, 05:37:50 pm
I'm thinking of getting a bigger tractor.  I want to be able to use the loader and lift a log about 9' long and about 27" diameter.  Does anyone know in general how many HP I need to do that.  I'm assuming around 40 or 45.  Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 08, 2017, 06:10:16 pm
This is probably one of those questions that gets asked all the time, but has no clear answer.  I did a search, but didn't ind what I was looking for, then I googled my question and found a post here that asked about the same thing.  I know a skid steer would be better, but that would mean having two machines, which is not in the cards.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: thecfarm on November 08, 2017, 06:31:25 pm
I suppose on level ground?
I do that with a 40hp NH with ease. 9 feet is not very long.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: pineywoods on November 08, 2017, 06:53:17 pm
HP really does not have much to do with lifting capability. What matters most is the tractors weight. Higher hp tractors tend to be heavier, but not necessarily so.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: gspren on November 08, 2017, 06:59:19 pm
  One of the reasons you won't get a clear answer as to what HP is needed is because it varies by year and model and is more a weight & sturdiness issue. My JD2355 4x4 from the late 80s weighs much more than a newer tractor of the same HP, (55). Horse power is needed for running PTO and hydraulic stuff while weight and sturdiness are needed for heavy loader work.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: gspren on November 08, 2017, 07:00:54 pm
Piney, you type faster than me.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 08, 2017, 07:04:51 pm
80 or 90 horse, and that will work for most logs.
How about a nice John Deere.  ;D
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/long_timbers_004.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1407360741) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/003~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1411262314) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_0580.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1462203161) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_0581.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1462203179) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_0585.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1462580529) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_0586.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1462580555) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_0440.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1454627907) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_1129.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1485645781) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_1130.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1485645803) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/DSCF0131.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1385850294)

With a winch too, and attachments. You can do a lot. Don't forget the cab with heat and AC.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 08, 2017, 07:07:39 pm
I know weight is needed, but my 1980ish kubota L245DT will not pick up a big log and the rear end will not lift up either.  Adding more weight to the back is not gonna make any difference.  It's a great tractor, but it's only 25 HP.  Thanks for the replies.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 08, 2017, 07:10:41 pm
That's a hell of a tractor.  It might be a bit out of my price range.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: gspren on November 08, 2017, 07:17:45 pm
I know weight is needed, but my 1980ish kubota L245DT will not pick up a big log and the rear end will not lift up either.  Adding more weight to the back is not gonna make any difference.  It's a great tractor, but it's only 25 HP.  Thanks for the replies.
  If the loader is sized properly for the tractor it won't lift much more than it can handle.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 08, 2017, 07:59:43 pm
That makes sense. 
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: g_man on November 08, 2017, 08:11:03 pm
A red oak log 27" in diameter and 9' long weighs about 2300 lbs. You will need a good rugged tractor.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Knute on November 08, 2017, 08:40:39 pm
If you are sort of poor like me, you could use an Allis D-17 like I have. It will lift the log you mentioned with no problem. About 60 hp.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 08, 2017, 08:45:21 pm
With lift rate not specified, the issue isnt horsepower, its diameter of the lift cyinders and the pressure setting of the relief valve.  8hp could lift that log no problem, just the same as itll make 34 tons or force to split it. 

Your issue will realistically come down to the front axle capacity (well.. And how strong the trans housing is if itsna frameless loader.)  Knuckles and balljoints or kingpins are inherently weaker than an articlated machine with two straight axles.  Its why wheel loaders never have a front steer.  Even the old houghs had a solid front and rear steer.  Look at how low the rating is on telehandlers compared to wheel loaders or forklifts of similar size.  Steer axle is why.

2300lbs is heavy for a skid steer unless its a big'n.  compact track loader territory.   

Old crawler loaders otoh... 6k no problem and theyre cheap
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 08, 2017, 09:53:59 pm
Front wheel assist is very nice for loader work. At a minimum though, you want something with power steering.  No power steering + heavy loader = Popeye arms.   :D

More details would help.  Budget?  Will this be for farm  use as well?  If you don't need 3 point and PTO, an old backhoe or industrial loader can be had pretty cheap that will have good lift capacity.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Ianab on November 08, 2017, 11:45:10 pm
Would a sturdy log arch work for moving heavy logs with your current tractor?

https://logrite.com/store/Item/tractor-arches (https://logrite.com/store/Item/tractor-arches)

Lot cheaper than a tractor that will pick up 4,000+ pounds. As long as you have reasonably flat ground your little tractor would tow that arch with a decent size log slung under it.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 09, 2017, 05:29:48 am
That's a hell of a tractor.  It might be a bit out of my price range.




You might be surprised, Less $$$ than a new truck.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 09, 2017, 06:00:54 am
This is some very good info!  8)

My tractor is 65HP. I regularly lift BIG stuff up to about 4,000 or so. However, I can feel the strain on the front when I do. Even though power steering, the turning feels strained, the chassis is loaded and it feels generally uneasy.

Replaced all the fluids in the front axel with heavier oil and change often, but I expect it to wear 5x faster than a casual-use machine that hauls bunny-tails and powder-puffs.  ;D :D

Always caveats and trade-offs. My machine is a GREAT general, all-around beast (Kubota M62) with powerful loader, 4WD, backhoe, ROPS and FOPS protection, 63HP, etc.

Great all-around machine, but something 1/4 the price can lift more. Skids and track-loaders tear things up. Tractors not so much.

Pick your poison and work it's strengths.

I use mine every single day: moving logs and slab wood, forking pallets and lumber stacks, digging to plant trees, brush removal, even skidding and forwarding a quite large timber job down and out to the landing: naysaying onlookers were astounded to see me coming down the hill with 32"+ oak logs in the grapple.

Thinking of shimming the hydraulics a little to coerce a little more lift outta'er!  smiley_chop
Curling that beech log made it groan.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7257.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1510224711)
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7275.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1510224683)


With lift rate not specified, the issue isnt horsepower, its diameter of the lift cyinders and the pressure setting of the relief valve.  8hp could lift that log no problem, just the same as itll make 34 tons or force to split it. 

Your issue will realistically come down to the front axle capacity (well.. And how strong the trans housing is if itsna frameless loader.)  Knuckles and balljoints or kingpins are inherently weaker than an articlated machine with two straight axles.  Its why wheel loaders never have a front steer.  Even the old houghs had a solid front and rear steer.  Look at how low the rating is on telehandlers compared to wheel loaders or forklifts of similar size.  Steer axle is why.

2300lbs is heavy for a skid steer unless its a big'n.  compact track loader territory.   

Old crawler loaders otoh... 6k no problem and theyre cheap
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 09, 2017, 09:30:12 am
Lots of great ideas here.  I want to stay with a farm type tractor so I can keep using my 3 point devices and I dont want it so big that I cant drive around in the woods between trees.  I am not gonna have an all out logging business, but I want to be able lift logs onto the mill and unload my trailer or a trailer of someone who brings me logs to saw.  I'm thinking of a budget of about 15,000.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Crusarius on November 09, 2017, 10:10:29 am
I have a Kubota L2800. the loader is not up to the task plain and simple. I don't think HP is what you need I think frame is more what you should be looking at. I am pretty confident my L2800 vs a comparable M series Kubota the M series is quite a bit more rugged and has more lift capacity. If you are looking at brand new tractor with loader 4 wd power steering and no real frills your starting about 23k for an M series.

My L2800 is the short wheelbase version. I don't care for it. It has nicer turning radius but longer nose which makes maneuvering in the woods a pain with the loader. It is still a good tractor but I kinda wish I kept my B8200 and bought a bigger M series.

Live and learn :)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 09, 2017, 10:21:52 am
Should be very doable for good used tractor with 4x4 and loader, as long as you don't need a cab.

Just check the specs on the loader in addition to the tractor.  For example, there were 3 different models Deere would put on our 2755.  Not to mention aftermarket options...
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 09, 2017, 10:23:42 am
Definitely not looking new.  I bought the l245 that I have on ebay of all places about 15 years ago.  I bought it for 5000 and then had to pay about 800 for shipping from Canada.  It has been a great tractor.  It looks like it rolled down a mountain side, but it runs flawlessly.  I am thinking I will get at least 40hp.  I know my tractor is just as good now as it was 15 years ago when I bought it, but im curious what I'll get for it on trade or private sale.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 09, 2017, 10:25:24 am
Cab would be nice in the winter, but I think it would be a nuisance most of the time.  I showed my wife one I found yesterday that had heat, AC and a stereo for about 35,000.  She was not impressed.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on November 09, 2017, 10:58:50 am
8540 Kubota, cost me 30gs in 2007 with 8'bucket, pallet forks.
2 days ago moved a bunch of 21' white pine 14 to 18 small end 2 at a time.
Had to put it in 4wd to travel up a slight incline.
front tires sagged a bit.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 09, 2017, 11:06:43 am
That sounds like a bit of overkill for me, but impressive.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 09, 2017, 02:59:38 pm
Ianab, I think a log arch is definitely a good idea too.  I have a guy I work with who is a big welder guy.  I think I will have him help me make something.  I want the loader to lift stuff on and off of mill and trailer, but I dont want to be carrying logs for long distances on the loader.  I saw your post of the NZ pine tree.  Ive got some big southern yellow pine that I need to cut down and bring to the mill.  The bigger one is about 30" diameter.  I hope to cut these pines into 6x6's for a future expansion of my woodworking shop.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 09, 2017, 04:59:51 pm
If loading the mill is the primary usage of a bigger tractor, it would be a lot cheaper to get a loading arch, use some timbers as ramps by the mill, and use the tractor you have to parbuckle up the ramp.  If mobile, I would substitute metal for the wood, but same concept. 

You would save enough to buy a good 3 point winch setup to.   ;)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mills on November 09, 2017, 06:39:37 pm
Another option would be to look around for an older wheel loader. Most people I've seen that moved logs very regularly with a tractor had it over-loaded at some point. Dad is on his second front end rebuild on his 4610.  :-\ He kept his track loader in the woods, but mostly used his tractor around his mill. And a ... I borrowed it a few times.  ;D
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 09, 2017, 07:02:11 pm
Bobcat made articulated machines that'd take a SSQA and lift a car.  Swinger, wacker neuson, volvo, case, IH, steiger or steiner i think .. There were quite a few.   Out here farm tractor based forklifts were common at mills.. Looks like a ford or case industrial tractor spun backward.  Pick up 5k and go offroad.  Theyre cheap, like 5 grand or less.

Id put an arch on your tractor and get a second piece of slightly different equipment better suited to loading. 

Fwiw, nothing beats a wheel loader with forks and a hydraulic thumb. 
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Puffergas on November 09, 2017, 07:45:05 pm
For many years we had an old truck with a fork mask on the rear. Worked good and was a blast to make. I think the mask was rated for 8 ton.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 09, 2017, 07:56:56 pm
Parbuckling is worth researching.  My concern is moving the mill as I'm pulling on the log with the tractor.  A winch attached to the mill will not try to move the mill as it's coming up the ramp.  The arch is something I need to do either way.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: thecfarm on November 09, 2017, 09:04:38 pm
Do you move your mill? I don't,so I sawed the top off of two hardwood trees,6 inches across,to make them flat. These are a little higher than my mill. I put my logs on top of these than I roll the logs onto the mill with a peavey. I lay down some ľ inch flat stock to go from my flat top logs to the mill. Some make a big hinge. It's time to make some flat top logs. They are all rotten.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Andries on November 09, 2017, 09:10:23 pm
. . .  I want to stay with a farm type tractor so I can keep using my 3 point devices and I dont want it so big that I cant drive around in the woods between trees.  I am not gonna have an all out logging business, but I want to be able lift logs onto the mill and unload my trailer or a trailer of someone who brings me logs to saw.  I'm thinking of a budget of about 15,000.

That price and those details fit my machine perfectly.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20171109_095954.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1510279227)
It's a Ford 545D.
65 hp. Loader lifting capacity 5000 lbs.
Starts well in the cold and has been a good machine.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20171109_100016.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1510279227)
The chunk of cement on the back end of "Betty Ford" will be replaced with some cast-iron wheel weights and fluid filled rear tires.
That frees up the 3 point hitch and the PTO.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Andries on November 09, 2017, 09:12:42 pm
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20160913_181556.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1478061024)
A grapple does a great job of unloading trailers with fenders, or from inside a truck bed / dump trailer.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 09, 2017, 09:20:44 pm
That would certainly fit the bill.  Only problem is that I'm planning to sell the tractor I have to help pay for the new one.  I don't think the Ford would meet my other tractor needs.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: YellowHammer on November 09, 2017, 10:30:45 pm
Most tractors with a farm heritage, both big and small, have loaders designed with round hay bales in mind.  That's why some really big farm tractors have the same lift capacity of some relatively small construction tractors.  It's all about designed use.

Ford, New Holland, John Deere and maybe others build certain tractors and loaders as crossover equipment, to be suited in both an agricultural as well as construction environment.  I've looked at several, and I have a New Holland that can lift an amazing amount of weight, and it is designed with heavy duty rear end, heavy duty front end, hydraulics, etc.  Deere M series are also strong, and with their loader can lift big weight.

Strong loaders and hydraulics are fine until you break an axle or two, which I did a couple times lifting with a tractor not designed for it.  Generally speaking, 4wd tractors have a heavier front end and are a little more robust.

Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 10, 2017, 12:31:03 pm
I keep thinking about that 545D and how it would be great, but I need to have a PTO and I read that most skiploaders donít have them.

Right now Iím hoping to find a Kubota L3750.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: North River Energy on November 10, 2017, 05:01:11 pm
Quote from: mike_belben


Your issue will realistically come down to the front axle capacity.  Knuckles and balljoints or kingpins are inherently weaker than an articlated machine with two straight axles.  Its why wheel loaders never have a front steer.  Even the old houghs had a solid front and rear steer.

For a time, Clark/Michigan offered an all-wheel steer loader, and built a similar front steer chassis and drivetrain for Massey Ferguson. Nice little machines if you can find one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vXfJ4KXjfU

http://www.lislesurplus.com/misc/470-massey-ferguson-4WD-loader-1968/ (http://www.lislesurplus.com/misc/470-massey-ferguson-4WD-loader-1968/)
---
I'm currently rebuilding a mid 80's Ford 545 industrial, equipped with Pto and three-point hitch. That configuration may not be as rare as you think.

Regardless, if I read correctly, you don't really need a new tractor, you need a stronger loader.

Given the number of hours you're likely to put on it, maybe do as Mills suggests and shop for an 'obsolete' bucket loader. The market value is limited, as they're no longer good for production, and too big for homeowners.
Granted, you could put a few thousand into it while you work out the kinks and plug all the leaks, but once you get past that hurdle, you'd have a hard time wearing it out, if all you do is tote logs around the yard.

I've seen respectable Hough 30's and 50's on Craigslist in the 3 to 6k range, depending on year and condition, and a neighbor has a flogged but fixable Massey that could be had for scrap value.

I'd make you a sweet deal on a Michigan 125A. Needs a lot of work, but then you could lift your Kubota, along with your mill and the log you're sawing, all at the same time. Not to mention the bleachers filled with sawmill groupies :D
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: WDH on November 10, 2017, 06:57:28 pm
The kubota M series are more heavy duty than the L series.  My kubota M5640 can lift between 2500 and 2750 pounds.  It is 56 HP.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 10, 2017, 07:33:37 pm
Thanks guys.
Iím thinking smaller than the Michigan.
I would love the M Kubota, but I think itís a bit big for what my dad would use it for.  We will share it and it has to be useable for him too.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 10, 2017, 07:51:38 pm
Man id love to have that 4ws loader.  Never seen one. 

Youll note right away the single piston uni-post boom and small bucket.  ..a designed limitation to protect the steer knuckles IMHO.

Its sad how many michigan 125A loaders ive put a torch to.  Only thing i could ever sell off them was the tires.  In western mass i couldnt get $2500 for one if it had a single issue. 
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 10, 2017, 09:39:31 pm
I'm going to pitch going with two machines again. 

I bought a Kubota L2850 that I wanted as a "do everything" machine.  However, it was too big to mow the lawn and till the garden (plus gear transmission) and two small t really brush hog or do a lot in the woods.  We looked into upgrading to a similar size with hydrostat and 4x4.  Big $$ for me.  I stumbled on a B1550 for cheap that I intended to resell, but was impressed how it handled a 5' mower and 4' tiller well enough.  Sold the L2850 and bought an IH 706 with loader (70ish HP).  All told we are in them for FAR less than the "do everything" machine I thought I wanted.

Same thing on vehicles.  I wanted the crew cab, dually, 4x4 so I can take the family and pull a trailer.  Ended up with a 3/4 ton Suburban and a single cab F350 to pull goosenecks (both 4x4) for FAR less than the "do all" truck.  The math won't work on a new one, but worked well for the used equipment I look for.

Maybe sell your dad your tractor and get yourself something a bit older and bigger.  Give him a good deal so you could still borrow the little one when needed.   ;)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: caveman on November 10, 2017, 09:51:33 pm
The M series Kubotas are easy to operate, comfortable and pretty nimble in the woods and around the mill.  I wish mine would lift more but that would be the case with anything-kind of like speed and horsepower on a vehicle-a little more is always desirable.   

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/0822121904.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1357499424) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/image~228.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1482018662)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on November 10, 2017, 10:28:35 pm
From my experience many of the skip loaders on the market like that ford 545d come with a 3pt and pto and for the size and money you will be hard pressed to find a stronger loader.

I've contemplated one for a loader machine that could also be used for farm work, my only downfall is that they are low slung and don't have a lot of underbodying clearance for hay work.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Larry on November 10, 2017, 10:32:25 pm
I have a small Ford 4wd tractor with FEL.  Wouldn't lift what I would like it to so I went shopping.  Tried both green and orange tractors in the 50 hp range.  Yes they might lift a good size log but it stressed both.  I didn't want to spend more nor did I want a 100 hp tractor to maintain.  Did that when I farmed. 

I found a Navigator truck mounted style forklift in excellent condition.  Lifts 6,000 pounds up to 12' high with ease.  It goes off road with better traction than a 2wd pickup but less than a 4wd truck.  Doesn't tear up the ground like a skidsteer.  It was perfect for me.  They were selling in the $5,000 to $8,000 range when I bought my lift....think I paid close to the upper end.  Kept the Ford tractor which I like.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 11, 2017, 12:01:44 am
TKehl, Iím not against the two machine theory.  In fact I was looking at skip loaders online today and they are surprising cheap for what you get.  If we got the skip loader and kept the L245,I wouldnít need PTO and maybe not even 4wd.
I agree about the two vehicle theory too.  I should have done that years ago when I got my first diesel truck.  I could have gotten a higher miles truck and a separate around town vehicle for less then I spent on one truck.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Andries on November 11, 2017, 01:17:01 am
. . .  many of the skip loaders on the market like that ford 545d come with a 3pt and pto and for the size and money you will be hard pressed to find a stronger loader. . . .  they are low slung and don't have a lot of underbodying clearance for hay work.

chevytahoe knows his machines!
The 545D aka 'skip loader' does have a PTO and 3pt. hitch.
I find it's great with a 6 foot Woods mower behind it.
... and like yellowhammer said, the crossover designed machines work well for exactly what you've said you need.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20171110_171047.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1510380737)
No, I haven't scratched heck out of my camera lens - we're working in the snow today.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: VAMuleskinner on November 11, 2017, 07:56:46 am
I have a JD 2240 (55hp) with a loader.  Was pretty disappointed with the lift capacity on it, 2500lbs only with a rear counterweight and that is really pushing it.  I lucked out at an auction and purchased an old Clark forklift for 25 dollars.  I took the mast off of that and fabricated a way to use it with the 3 point on the tractor, works great.  If I find another older tractor cheap I will eventually hard mount the mast to the front of that tractor.  As far as skip loaders go I have a MF50 that has a backhoe on it, the lift capacity on it is around 5000pds.  It has a 540 pto but no 3point, the hoe can be removed pretty quick and simple.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Crusarius on November 11, 2017, 08:49:16 am
I really wish I had kept my smaller machine. Tkehl is 100% right. My L2800 is to big for common yard use but to small for everything else.

Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: GRANITEstateMP on November 11, 2017, 10:19:56 am

. . .  I want to stay with a farm type tractor so I can keep using my 3 point devices and I dont want it so big that I cant drive around in the woods between trees.  I am not gonna have an all out logging business, but I want to be able lift logs onto the mill and unload my trailer or a trailer of someone who brings me logs to saw.  I'm thinking of a budget of about 15,000.
[/quote]

That price and those details fit my machine perfectly.

It's a Ford 545D.
65 hp. Loader lifting capacity 5000 lbs.
Starts well in the cold and has been a good machine.

We have got a FORD 445D on the farm.  Pretty sure this is the 3rd one, we've wore out two!  It gets used EVERY DAY.  It has 3pt hitch, and a 540 pto.  Used to clean manure out of the barns twice a day, and for feeding up twice a day (not at the same time, that would be gross ;D)  We have a rubber 1/2 tire on the back for scraping the manure out of the barn.  The 445D is rugged and pretty simple.  We go through front wheel bearings, and forward reverse switches, but also put wayyyy more hours on them than your average joe.  They are also easy to get on and off, since they are an "industrial" type machine.


---
I'm currently rebuilding a mid 80's Ford 545 industrial, equipped with Pto and three-point hitch. That configuration may not be as rare as you think.

Eric,  we still have a "parts" 445D.  A bunch of the parts are, ahhh, used up, but some may work.  Is your 545 a 2wd or 4wd?  Pretty sure our machine is a mid to late 90's

Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 11, 2017, 02:16:39 pm
I have not found any 545ís locally, but they do seem to come at a good price where I have seen them around the country.  Iíll keep looking.  Iíll also keep my mind open to having two machines.  Thanks for the advice that keeps coming.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: maple flats on November 11, 2017, 06:49:47 pm
Whatever you get, be very careful lifting and driving unless you are carrying the load low. Many a machine have been rolled by not following that rule.
As far as lifting and loading logs, look into an older excavator. I have an 8000# class that lifts 2500#, it will take a bigger one to lift 5000 for sure. I now use a thumb and the bucket curl to lift logs, but before I had the thumb I used 2 sets of tongs.

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12321/SAM_0207~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1481758941)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on November 11, 2017, 06:56:58 pm
Don't just limit yourself to local machines. I've saved a lot of money buying machines from far away and having them shipped in. Just take a trip and go look at it or pay a local to the machine independent mechanic check it out.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 11, 2017, 09:01:22 pm
I would not be carrying logs long distances on the loader.  I would just be offloading a trailer and setting logs on the mill.  I figure Iíll do it like the previous picture with two sets of tongs. 

Iím no stranger to driving to buy things.  Iíve bought campers in Illinois, Indiana and my current fifth wheel came from Pittsburgh.  Iím interested in a Kubota 3750 in Denver.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: North River Energy on November 11, 2017, 10:42:13 pm
Quote from: firefighterontheside
I would not be carrying logs long distances on the loader.  I would just be offloading a trailer and setting logs on the mill.  I figure Iíll do it like the previous picture with two sets of tongs. 

That being the case, have you considered an older knuckle boom log loader? That would give you more sorting options, and most likely come in cheaper than a used industrial tractor.

(http://beckmannag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/HOBCrear.jpg)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 12, 2017, 09:06:13 am
That would be awesome, but if my wife came home and found that in my driveway she probably wouldnít be my wife for long.  My mill will be set up just off my driveway near my house.   :D
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Andries on November 12, 2017, 11:54:26 am
Well, y'know . .  that's a handsome looking machine there, in a rugged kinda way.
But, then again, that's not for everyone!
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: DDW_OR on November 12, 2017, 12:44:36 pm
I love my Mahindra 5520, 4x4, 51hp, PTO = 45hp

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/GEDC0762a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1445881377)
Above Photo : Farmi winch rated at 11,000 pounds

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/PICT0043.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1446827102)
Above Photo : 9 foot grader blade with 3 hydraulic cylinders

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/0516040928~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1477239047)
Above Photo : I tow my ATV "tool truck" into my woods when i an going to spend the day cutting trees

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/GEDC1216.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509986367)
Above Photo : saw box i made for chainsaws and supplies

note the 4 pallet forks, makes a pitch fork for the tractor
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: DDW_OR on November 12, 2017, 12:49:16 pm
my atv tool truck


 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/Kolpin_Saw_Press_Bracket_-_Front.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1443858429) 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/GEDC0736.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1448067884)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 12, 2017, 02:57:38 pm
Iím loving all the logging tractor setups.  I didnít know I had so much to do once I get my new tractor.  I only live on about 15 acres so I probably wonít be carrying a four wheeler on the back.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: DDW_OR on November 12, 2017, 05:11:58 pm
15 or 166 acres, moving and lifting logs are the same.

minimum i would suggest:
Log arch
and mounted to the tractor a 5,000 pound electric winch, with 2 pulleys rated at 20k = 3 line pull, 15,000#
https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Superwinch/SW2060.html


and a tractor trailer hitch similar to this one
http://www.agrisupply.com/trailer-mover/p/59513/

I have one similar, but without the gooseneck hitch
but now have a gooseneck trailer 
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 12, 2017, 06:19:51 pm
I was just looking at that hitch accessory earlier today.  I was actually looking into something to be able to move my fifth wheel around with the tractor.  That of course wonít work for the fiver.

I found a John Deere 4600 that Iím gonna call about tomorrow.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: WDH on November 12, 2017, 08:01:46 pm
Andries,

I don't care what you say, that screen is scratched  ;D. 
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 12, 2017, 08:09:48 pm
I <3 agri supply.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 13, 2017, 09:24:38 am
What do you guys think about a 43 HP JD 4600 with 2500 hours?  Loader capacity is over 2000.  It is a 1999.
They are asking $8900.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Puffergas on November 13, 2017, 10:00:10 am
I like the old knuckle boom, as long as it is mounted on an old Cornbinder. The view up there can't be beat!
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: gasman1075 on November 13, 2017, 11:31:37 am
My 790 is about 30-33 HP and I do the lifting with the 3PT because I cant afford a bigger tractor. I am sorry I didn't measure this before I cut it up but it worked fine and I only have about 1,000 dollars into it +/-

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44196/Thumb_with_log_2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1510578369)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: DDW_OR on November 13, 2017, 11:39:03 am
What do you guys think about a 43 HP JD 4600 with 2500 hours?  Loader capacity is over 2000.  It is a 1999.
They are asking $8900.
does the bucket have the quick attachment?
i assume 2wd and no cab

just for the heck of it, what does a mini excavator cost?
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: DDW_OR on November 13, 2017, 12:13:23 pm
(Craigslist ads removed by admin.)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: maple flats on November 13, 2017, 12:35:31 pm
my 1989 8000# excavator was $8900 delivered about 8-0 years ago, but it needed a new idler bearing. The bearing housing on the idler wheel was shot too, and new parts were not available (I have not found a Mitsubishi Excavator dealer for under 12,000# any where in the world, over 12,000 Cat handles the parts. I had a good friend who put it on his lathe (it was 13.2" diameter, his chuck opens to 13.25). Once it was turned to remove all of the ridges and all, it could not be turned further to fit the next larger size bearing. Then the same buddy, who is a master machinist and he bought much of the equipment in the shop he worked in for years as that business was bought out and the new owners were only going to scrap those "old" machines. That buddy, on the same lathe turned a big nylon bushing and made a new axle for it to fit the excavator. That still shows no wear after all these years and it has almost 700 more hours on it since. The only thing I had him add to his proposed plan was that he was going to put 2 grease fittings, one on each side, I had him put 4 so there is one every 90 degrees alternately around the bushing.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 13, 2017, 01:42:11 pm
The JD was 4wd and no cab, but they told me it is being held for someone and will call if they donít show. 
Thanks for looking, but that backhoe is way too heavy for me to haul and too far to drive home.  The skid steer is a scam.  I called on something like that yesterday......it was an escort service.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 13, 2017, 01:44:04 pm
The forks on the 3 point are worth researching.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: gasman1075 on November 13, 2017, 04:29:26 pm
The thumb was from Green the 3 PT from Titan hydraulic valve from Surplus Center. If you have remote hydraulic ports at the rear of the tractor its a piece of cake. This weekend I'll be cutting again and I will measure a log before I start cutting rounds. I am very happy with it.

Jack
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 13, 2017, 04:45:00 pm
The thumb was from Green

You have a Green thumb...

Niiiiice!!!!   :) :D ;D
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: JB Griffin on November 13, 2017, 07:26:58 pm
North river, that wouldn't happen to be a 150 prentice would it?
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 13, 2017, 08:33:58 pm
No ports at the back of the 245.  I will tell you that I was using my buddyís skid steer today and got too close to the edge of a pond and one wheel went over the edge and wouldnít come back.  My dad hooked on to me with a chain from the 245 and helped me get out.  It was a bit scary.  I donít think skid steers float very well.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: North River Energy on November 13, 2017, 10:54:45 pm
JBG,
Reasonably sure it's an H.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 14, 2017, 01:59:40 pm
This should be at my place in the next few days.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44195/Picture1114171254_1.jpg)

Pretty excited!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 14, 2017, 02:52:20 pm
The steering wheel looks like itís on the wrong end. 
What is it?
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 14, 2017, 05:18:06 pm
Iím gonna go look at this Ford 545 this week and maybe buy it.  It will certainly lift any log Iím gonna put on my mill.  It has a huge bucket, probably bigger than Iíd like.  Maybe I can get forks and also have a way to hang tongs from it and remove the bucket.  It has 1600 hours on it.  2WD and no PTO, but does have 3 point hitch.  What do you guys think?

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36921/F1A56959-A1EA-4251-9A82-8779E7A3D7BA.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1510697769)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 14, 2017, 05:31:16 pm
The steering wheel looks like itís on the wrong end. 
What is it?

A pic from the other end would have helped.   :)  It's a forklift based on an industrial tractor that is based on a regular Allis Chalmers tractor.  Supposed to have 5k Lb lift capacity. 

Yes EVERYTHING is backwards, but not everything was moved.  Pretty weird looking between my legs to check the gauges under the seat.   :D
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: WDH on November 14, 2017, 08:01:36 pm
Firefighter,

I don't think that I could live without 4-wheel drive  :). 
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 14, 2017, 09:31:42 pm
I just watched a pretty big new holland thats used for logging snap a pretty expensive spindle inside the planetary, further reinforcing my belief that loaders and steer knuckles dont mix.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: DDW_OR on November 14, 2017, 09:40:15 pm
The steering wheel looks like itís on the wrong end. 
What is it?
off road forklift
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 14, 2017, 09:47:42 pm
I would prefer 4wd, but it came down to money.  To buy a loader that was 4wd and strong enough to lift a big log was gonna be at least 12,000.  So, I will plan to use this for a while and hopefully make enough money from the mill in a few years to buy something else.  Also, Iím keeping my 4wd l245.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on November 14, 2017, 10:25:50 pm
I just watched a pretty big new holland thats used for logging snap a pretty expensive spindle inside the planetary, further reinforcing my belief that loaders and steer knuckles dont mix.

I've put thousands of hours on multiple loader tractors handling lots of heavy loads (tons of hay, logs, pallets, etc) on some rough ground and have yet to have any front axle problems. Also the mill I used to buy for had a couple of high hour (20k+) Pettibone loaders (with steering axles front and back) and other than replacing worn king pins ever few thousand hours we never had any issues and they were used and abused often lifting loads that lifted the back tires up and driving on just the front axle.

Some people can tear up an anvil with a rubber mallet though...
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 14, 2017, 10:43:16 pm
He may be one of them, not sure.  I do know that tractor wont be contributing to its $550/month payment for a while. 

Sometimes success is less about scoring big wins and more about avoiding big fails.  Your mileage may vary.   
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: North River Energy on November 15, 2017, 08:15:41 am
Iím gonna go look at this Ford 545 this week and maybe buy it.  It will certainly lift any log Iím gonna put on my mill.  It has a huge bucket, probably bigger than Iíd like.  Maybe I can get forks and also have a way to hang tongs from it and remove the bucket.  It has 1600 hours on it.  2WD and no PTO, but does have 3 point hitch.  What do you guys think?

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36921/F1A56959-A1EA-4251-9A82-8779E7A3D7BA.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1510697769)

Looks like a possible. May not be an issue for your limited use and youthful exuberance, but will the stickshift be a liability of an asset?
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 15, 2017, 08:31:59 am
Iíve never used anything but a stick shift tractor, so Iím not sure what benefit anything else might be to me.  As long as the clutch is ok and shifts fine, Iíll be fine with it.  As far as my youth goes, Iím 43.  Not as youthful as I used to be, but I can still get around.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Andries on November 15, 2017, 08:43:21 am
You're looking in the right direction, but I think you can do better.
That 545A has wheel weights on the rears, but doesn't have the strong FEL.
You can recognise those by the double linkage at the bucket attachment.
Hold out for a early or mid 1990's model with pto,  3 point and 5000 lb loader.
Make you happy.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: YellowHammer on November 15, 2017, 08:43:58 am
Firefighter,

I don't think that I could live without 4-wheel drive  :).

2WD tractors are problematic with front end loaders.  The heavier the load being picked up in the front, the lighter the rear end gets and the tires can actually come off the ground so less traction and applied pushing force for moving dirt, gravel, stumps, etc.  I had an old 2WD tractor that when I picked up a heavy load, would get stuck because the rear end would basically come off the ground and spin with no traction.

With a 4wd, the more weight in the bucket or the more force lifting up (big logs), the more the front drive tires will get pushed into the ground, and the more front wheel drive traction and drive force generated.   
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Andries on November 15, 2017, 08:50:59 am
X2 on Yellowhammer and WDH comments.
Time for a little patience and end up with the right machine.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: TKehl on November 15, 2017, 09:29:35 am
No PTO would be the biggest knock for me.

4x4 would be good, but an implement or weight box on the 3 point can help put more weight on the back tires as long as the power steering is good.

G-man calculated back on post #11 that the size log to pick up would be about 2300Lbs.  Any input on if this tractor would pick that? 

Of course, if it were me, tomorrow I'd want to push that just a bit further.   ;)
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 15, 2017, 09:58:35 am
According to tractor data, the lighter loader can pick up 3500 at the pin.  Heavier one is 4500.  Also, I've decided to only spend up to 5000 right now, so I don't see finding something much better than this to lift a big log and have 4wd.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 15, 2017, 10:03:06 am
Dont ever plan to back up hill with a 2wd and heavy front load.  And never buy a tractor without dif lock
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: Andries on November 15, 2017, 10:12:13 am
The 545A is rated for 3500 lbs on the front end loader.
It doesn't have a pto.
It's two wheel drive.

It might be a nice loader, but it might not be the right loader.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 15, 2017, 10:21:54 am
I hope to get it for 4000, but may have to spend 4500.  Mainly I need to know if that's a good price for what it is.  I'm not afraid to buy it and sell it later if it doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: mike_belben on November 15, 2017, 10:38:15 am
If it will do what you need done as soon as you drive it off the trailer, yes it is a fine price.  Get machine, get back to making money and learn its weaknesses over time while you keep your eyes open for a better replacement.  Pay attention to what changes may come in your operation that may dictate a different need while youre running it. 

Sell when its always parked.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 15, 2017, 11:04:26 am
Thatís what Iíll do when I look at it is determine if it will do exactly what I need it to do right away.  Itís a few hours drive to look, but I will pass on it if Iím not satisfied.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: North River Energy on November 15, 2017, 12:51:40 pm
Agree with Andries on the lack of PTO. That will likely affect your ease of resale. Also, consider you could be running another piece of support equipment off that tractor without affecting  your ability to use it as a loader. (small slab chipper, etc)


If you're simply moving one log from the pile to the mill, then the transmission type doesn't really matter. If you might be doing any repetitive loading, like piling snow or mulch, rowing for gears will get old, and you'll wish you had a reverser or some such. And as you get a little older, your relation to the clutch pedal might become an issue.

According to fuzzy memory, I think the long block for that tractor will bring about 4k.

Maybe figure in the cost of a quick-tach plate, and a real set of forks.

In the end, you have to consider if that tractor in present trim will improve the quality of your life experience by more than the purchase price.
If not, keep looking.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: thecfarm on November 15, 2017, 06:12:19 pm
1600 hours??  :o  I have no idea what year that is,but not many hours. I put more than half that on my tractor a year.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: firefighterontheside on November 16, 2017, 02:42:32 pm
I went and looked at the 545, but passed.  Itís really a lot bigger than what I want.  Great deal for somebody though.
Title: Re: Tractor Horsepower
Post by: DDW_OR on November 16, 2017, 03:01:39 pm
i have never regretted my 51 hp mahindra 4x4
but i have regretted the 22 hp mahindra