(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38217/big_white_oak~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490062524)
Have an option to buy this straight, long (60 foot, 30 inch big end, 15 inch little end) white oak that was showing signs of dying late last. It was cut 3 weeks ago. The butt log looks almost perfect. What is it worth? It looks like it has sweep on the big end but that is an optical illusion. Can't mess up the man's yard so removal will be tricky and delicate. Have a log arch/winch/deck over trailer that works well but still have to drag the log. Also while I'm asking questions, how would you buck it?
Lift one end and slide a small trailer under it. Use your arch for the other end.
I never pay for urban logs. Last large oaks I got paid to come pick them up. Just picked up 1000 bf of urban ash for free. Waiting on call to go get 4000bf + Large diameter poplar for free.
JJ4,
I also don't buy logs. If I got hold of it since it is W/O around here I'd seriously consider cutting it into lengths appropriate to making trailer decking or bridge timbers. Nothing less than 12' and preferably 14-16. For trailer decking I think 2" and bridge timbers more like 3". BTW - those will be heavy. I'd advertise I had the logs and not cut them until I had a customer if I could. It should store in the weather very well with reasonable care such as sealing the ends. Good luck.
I agree with previous advice. All the circumstanse dictate that this log should be free. You are providing the service of disposal for free means log is free.
Here your competition would be the firewood guys or a sawyer that wanted it and the price would be at least wholesale hardwood firewood stock......and somebody would pay for it. Not saying you should but sometimes the supply and demand create circumstances like you have.
In my area even the tree services have to pay a log truck to pick up logs. Part of your expense is simply the labor and machinery to pick up the wood. It would only be free if they delivered it to your mill.
Secondarily, many mills don't even want logs that come from residential areas because they ruin too many blades and cost too much time.
If you take that log you are taking a big risk.
Quote from: Jjoness4 on March 20, 2017, 10:18:30 PM
Can't mess up the man's yard so removal will be tricky and delicate.
This sentence makes me nervous. Not saying nothing bad against him. But is he one of them that wants the log removed with a helicopter? :D Some don't want ANY damage done to thier lawn. ::) Even a trailer with the log on might sink in some. Enough to feel it on a riding lawn mower. Than someone might of gave him the,"You know how much that is worth"?,talk. How much extra time will it take? Than he wants you to pay him? :o
And I would suspect that someone had to take some time to climb that tree and limb it? And than fall it? I betcha they gave him a price to haul it off and he's looking for someone to pay him to haul it off.
The reason that log is laying there is the guy didn't want to pay the tree service to remove it. It should be free and he should understand there will be minor damage to the lawn, you can't walk on water. Feel out the guy some are a pain in the butt and it may not be worth the hassle. Frank C.
Agreed. I was shocked recently when I found how much tree services charge for removal. Was going to get a nice large Ash to slab in my father-in-laws yard. Tree service screwed up and cut it into firewood pieces :'(, then wanted to charge $550-600 to haul off. I said no way and knew a guy who sells firewood on the side and even he wanted $250 to haul it off.
Near me the tree services sell firewood for about $275 per cord but you have to remember that they had to split the wood, age the wood, load the wood back on a truck , and deliver the wood. The only way that pays is to also charge to remove the wood. No matter what business you are in, you need to break down all your costs otherwise you'll end up broke in the end.
If it isn't free I would pass, who knows what kind of trash is in that butt log.
Jon
At any rate, you are going to spend the better part of a day removing the log, in addition to the material and labor to repair the owner's lawn. Unless you have a market or use for the WO, let him pay someone to pi$$ him off. Regards, Clark
I tell people that I do not pay for yard trees.
If I do the probability of paying for them twice is too high for me.
Once in cash, and once in blades.
Note: 1/2" lag bolts in logs ruin blades real fast.
Gerald
With all the work involved to remove it, you cannot pay for it. If he's too fussy about the lawn, walk away. There will be some damage no matter what. As said above, logs can't walk on water and you can't hire a helicopter.
Would I take it? Sure. It looks like a good log. I'd keep it as long as possible for my use. I'd hire my buddy with his trailer and track loader to haul it as long as possible so I could cut a beam out of it. That is my use, a beam for timber framing. I have a hard time getting long logs. Minimum length I'd want is 12' even for boards, but I'd prefer longer.
Let us know what happens.
I feel the same way u are doing him a favor removing it for free if not a cost. On the subject of how much white oak is worth I've been running into a lot of dead oaks red white black some of them are junk hollow but a lot just have some rot around the out side but a solid heart in the middle what would you all think on price for them I would be cutting down and hauling off and they are not urban trees i no grade plays a big role in price but ballpark numbers would be nice if I didn't take them they would end up as rot or firewood some day some of the places the logger left them behind but after cutting them down there good and solid after u strip the outside off any opinions ?
Well the majority of you say get it free or walk away. Some more information for you to consider. (Can you detect that I want this log ?? ;D ). The homeowner will be OK on any moderate damage to his yard. He has set a firm price of $200 and has a firewood guy offering him that but he would like to see it sawed into lumber rather than firewood. A logger friend who has no dog in the race says the butt log is veneer or prime which a local mill about 20 miles away is paying $1000/mbd for veneer and $750 for prime grade. I have a market for some 5/4 white oak and the guy makes cutting boards and can't get white oak. I sold him all I had for $3.00 per bd/ft about a month ago and he was tickled. It was dry however. There is about 900 bdft Doyle in the log. Bottom line I think I will buy it for $200 and bet on the come. Please forgive me for not taking your advice. I promise to let you know if I screwed up. My granddad used to be in the watermelon business. He bought watermelons for $1.00 each and sold them for $3.00 each and bragged that he had a 2% margin. I hope I can do at least as good as he did. ;D ;D ;D ;D.
1. I can't imagine someone paying that much for it as firewood in log form.
2. Sounds like you have a market and a plan. GO GET IT MAN!!! ;)
On the other hand if you really want it, go for it.
Do keep us posted as we will all learn something either way.
Jon
JJ4,
You might consider milling the log on site to do less damage than dragging it out if the circumstances permit and you do mobile sawing. You could capture most of the sawdust with a Jim Rogers bucket or a tarp or maybe you can scatter it with a leaf blower enough to prevent damage. Good luck.
I would never mill it on site. I did that once, and when the property owner saw the lumber $$$ went off in his head and he started feeling like he had been taken advantage of. I wasn't involved with the log deal but only sawing. Anyway, my advice is to move the logs.
In my market, all White Oak is automatically sawed to bed boards and stored.....they sell quick.
Quote from: Jjoness4 on March 21, 2017, 10:49:21 AM
Well the majority of you say get it free or walk away. Some more information for you to consider. (Can you detect that I want this log ?? ;D ). The homeowner will be OK on any moderate damage to his yard. He has set a firm price of $200 and has a firewood guy offering him that but he would like to see it sawed into lumber rather than firewood. A logger friend who has no dog in the race says the butt log is veneer or prime which a local mill about 20 miles away is paying $1000/mbd for veneer and $750 for prime grade. I have a market for some 5/4 white oak and the guy makes cutting boards and can't get white oak. I sold him all I had for $3.00 per bd/ft about a month ago and he was tickled. It was dry however. There is about 900 bdft Doyle in the log. Bottom line I think I will buy it for $200 and bet on the come. Please forgive me for not taking your advice. I promise to let you know if I screwed up. My granddad used to be in the watermelon business. He bought watermelons for $1.00 each and sold them for $3.00 each and bragged that he had a 2% margin. I hope I can do at least as good as he did. ;D ;D ;D ;D.
Well obviously wood is more valuable in some areas than others. Good luck. Maybe I should be in the business of selling wood as a commodity and shipping it around the world rather than trying to mill it myself ? :laugh:
Lynn,
That is a possibility but the customer would also see the sophistication and cost of the mill and process to make such lumber and the seller may think he made a good deal and if he does not see the processing he may think it is much faster and easier than it is and still think he was ripped off. We've discussed this in many other threads but I have major heartburn with someone taking a risk and sometimes making a profit (I remember a cedar baking board thread a while back...). No matter what the seller is not seeing the handling, storage and marketing involved so he will always have a somewhat jaundiced view
Anyway, my suggestion was just to consider on-site milling if it would cause less damage to the landscaping and prevent/reduce seller heartburn. JMHO.
Dave,
Are you talking about boards for truck beds or furniture?
Anyone else think $3 a board foot is a little low? If I understood correctly WO seems rare in this vicinity.
I understand your point Howard and where you are coming from. The situation that I got involved in got mighty testy between the property owner and the log buyer. There were some "names called" and friendships lost. My only involvement was to saw the logs, get paid, and git gone. :o
Quote from: Farm29 on March 21, 2017, 10:45:17 AM
I feel the same way u are doing him a favor removing it for free if not a cost. On the subject of how much white oak is worth I've been running into a lot of dead oaks red white black some of them are junk hollow but a lot just have some rot around the out side but a solid heart in the middle what would you all think on price for them I would be cutting down and hauling off and they are not urban trees i no grade plays a big role in price but ballpark numbers would be nice if I didn't take them they would end up as rot or firewood some day some of the places the logger left them behind but after cutting them down there good and solid after u strip the outside off any opinions ?
around here those logs would be strictly tie log price if the sapwood has started to rot and the heart is sound :) if they have stood long enough to for the sapwood to rot there will be NO grade lumber in them what so ever only cants and pallet stock :( the wood is as good as it ever was for decking or bridge lumber but if it gray saps the graders will buy it as #2 or lower because of stain and then likely go back through it and sell the better stuff for fas ::) thats the way it works around here anyway ::)
The dimensions you gave... 500bf @ .20 $100. Tell him it'll cost you $300 just to bring it home once you pay for 2 helpers.. equipment.. etc. I'd buck from 8 to 10 ft keeping the butt curve in mind. You will get more bf once you buck into sections.. but don't tell him that. Good luck!
as far as the yard tree here it would have cost him $500 to get it cut and removed :) the log is worth the 200 dollars if you want to fool with it but i wouldnt pay anything for it personally but if you want it get it but you will go broke fast if you make a habit of buying those logs :) but i wont even go get them for free because you will lose a day sawing which is 400-500 dollars plus the cost of moving it the butt log is worth $75 bucks a ton and the rest is $50 per ton delivered to my milll here so i can buy them cheaper than i can haul them if they are free but i can get all the logs i want so that might make a difference good luck whatever you decide :)
If you just want it... Go for it... Personally, when I was sawing regularly and had a boom truck to pick up logs, I did not have good luck with yard trees, profit-wise, due to time, tramp metal in the tree, and other surprises.
Local tree service charges flat rate $100 per hour for removal. Looking at that log, would be at least half a day to buck it up into firewood chunks that two laborers could manually lift into the back of a dump trailer and haul it off. As mentioned above, I personally would not do any deal that was not at least "free" on my end...
Suggest you think just of yourself here, not consider any standard value or intrinsic worth of the wood. Too many factors and what some would call an "illiquid market" for that log to have some standard value. Maybe consider how much you would want to give to get it, if you knew someone else would be coming to take it for firewood.
I guess what many are saying is that you can get better logs from tree services for a lower price so why buy that one? The fact that it is a personal relationship to me makes it worse. Take emotions out of it.
Sawmills rarely want to buy 1 veneer log and you better know if it is veneer, or even prime. IF it is from a yard in my area that automatically means not veneer. Often not even prime. Just firewood processing wood bought by the ton. Up to you but you should never over pay.
Good luck with whatever you do but if I had 200 to blow I'd spend it on advertising/flyers/calls to local tree service guys and I bet you'd get a lot more wood for the $.
I don't own a mill but have been thinking about this very situation arising if I decided to get into the business of milling. I would simply market my services to the homeowner on a price per board foot plus the cost of damaged blades if there is metal in the tree. Then he can go to a lumber yard and decide if he wants to pay for milling and the risk of damaged blades or just get rid of the wood. He might decide to mill the wood and sell it himself on craigslist or he might decide to dry it and make cabinets out of it. You want to give him the choice while at the same time not doing anything for free or making him feel he is being ripped off.
Quote from: brianJ on March 21, 2017, 10:04:06 PM
Anyone else think $3 a board foot is a little low? If I understood correctly WO seems rare in this vicinity.
I'm not sure if its low or not. There are a lot of other inputs you need to get that price, or higher. Quartersawn would fetch more, which will give you a lower yield. You also would need dry stock, and there is a degrade factor.
One thing for sure, you won't get $3/bf straight through the tree. There will be some that will fetch a high price, and a good bit that won't. Yard grown trees usually don't prune as well as woods grown.
I worked a job where they tried to use urban trees as a resource for a mill. They didn't buy a single log. It was all hauled in and delivered for free. The arborists were avoiding tipping fees of $125/ton, plus delivery. A big city area, so tipping fees in other areas are not as great.
Quote from: Jjoness4 on March 21, 2017, 10:49:21 AM
Well the majority of you say get it free or walk away. Some more information for you to consider. (Can you detect that I want this log ?? ;D ). The homeowner will be OK on any moderate damage to his yard. He has set a firm price of $200 and has a firewood guy offering him that but he would like to see it sawed into lumber rather than firewood. A logger friend who has no dog in the race says the butt log is veneer or prime which a local mill about 20 miles away is paying $1000/mbd for veneer and $750 for prime grade. I have a market for some 5/4 white oak and the guy makes cutting boards and can't get white oak. I sold him all I had for $3.00 per bd/ft about a month ago and he was tickled. It was dry however. There is about 900 bdft Doyle in the log. Bottom line I think I will buy it for $200 and bet on the come. Please forgive me for not taking your advice. I promise to let you know if I screwed up. My granddad used to be in the watermelon business. He bought watermelons for $1.00 each and sold them for $3.00 each and bragged that he had a 2% margin. I hope I can do at least as good as he did. ;D ;D ;D ;D.
If a firewood guy is offering him $200 for the log, which I imagine is what the homeowner is wishfully thinking rather than factually stating, I'd tell the homeowner that he had found his customer already. He'll probably be calling you back in a few weeks when he figures out the firewood guy had come to his senses and tell you to just come get the log out of his yard before he has to pay someone else to come and get it or do the work himself.
Is it fast growth ? How about iron ? Oh the lawn is an issue ? Yeah past experience has taught me well , Ask the property owner how much he will pay to have it taken away and cleaned up . I got burned like this a total of once and it will never happen again ! I'm sure it would be a nice log but even free would make me cautious . If you feel copelled to offer money for it 40$ would be my max . Only if there are no responsabilitys attached to it .
Lynn,
Yeah I know the kind of cases you are talking about and I hate to get caught up in the middle. At least in this case it is just the buyer (JJ4) and the seller (Maybe?). What really piths me off is when some busybody comes by and stirs the flames creating hate and discontent where there was none before.
We had/Mom still has a fence company down in Fla and lots of times we'd put up a fence around somebody's house and some busybody would come by and stir up a landline issue that was not there before. Like you, we were just there to put up a fence where the customer told us to put it and we'd get dragged towards such disputes.
On a vacation in Cameroon we found a young mother with a new born baby in a remote village and asked her if she wanted a picture. One thing we did was to take a portable picture printer and we'd take and give pictures to people who had never had a picture. You make instant friends and get lots of pix that way. Anyway the lady was agreeable then local busybody's got involved insisting we pay for the picture which we would not do so the lady lost the chance to get a great memory picture. I guess the busybodies were afraid we might make some money on the picture or something.
Anyway, lets hope this log sale goes well.
Since the landowner is picky about his yard, you might want to walk away from this "deal". Otherwise I would tell him $250 to remove this log and get a written agreement, dated and signed, that you would not be held responsible for any damage to his yard. Get the money upfront or do not get involved. Homeowners can be not worth the trouble to deal with. It is worth at least $250 to get it outta his way, otherwise the firewood man needs to be called and he will probably charge him at least that to get this log off his property.
Another thought - why not offer him $350-$400 fob your site and let him see what it costs to buck, load and transport. Then he is responsible for any damage to the yard and related clean up.
QuoteA logger friend who has no dog in the race says the butt log is veneer or prime which a local mill about 20 miles away is paying $1000/mbd for veneer and $750 for prime grade.
think_not
You do what you want, but somebody is smoking something that is only legal in a few places. There isn't a veneer mill anywhere that will take a urban yard tree.
Someone brought up a very important point - get it in writing. If you're a contractor and ever end up in court without a contract in writing you will automatically lose and might even be subject to penalties simply because the contractor is the presumed "professional" in the dispute and therefore assumes liability for any misunderstanding. I like to use email for very simple transactions like mowing someone's lawn. You don't need a ten page contract but you need something in writing which demonstrates that you had a understood agreement.
Wow. I got a lot of great advice on this post and am appreciative for every reply. I have, as I said in a previous post and contrary to Forum wisdom, made an offer of $200 and it was accepted. So it is on me now. Milling on site is not an option because it would have to done on a subdivision street which would indeed be a attention getter and probably not good for neighbor relations. If I am going to sell some white oak lumber I must have white oak logs 8), right? And in the local market there is a scarcity of white oak. In fact the US Forestry guy who came out to look at my trees told me that White Oak is becoming the new Walnut/Cherry. I have several immature White Oaks in my woodlot but I will leave them to the grandkids to do something with. I have about 1000 bdft of White Oak sold if I can get it sawed and dried and the fellow is willing to wait on me. I have a reasonably good metal detector and I will use it albeit after the fact before I saw. As far as this being a veneer or prime log, the butt log and Log 1 meets the definition of such if there is no metal. I get the feeling that mills never see or grade a log veneer even if it is >:(. Anyway I could care less if it is or isn't because I am sawing it into lumber with the hope that I can get some pretty lumber to please the customer. Thanks again for your valued input.
JJ
Good luck to you on recovering the log and milling the lumber. Pictures, Or it didn't happen ! ;D