Hello Forum. Thanks for the wealth of information over the years. I have a question and would love some opinions. I bought some property and am building a timber frame home with SIPS. My plans are being drawn and engineered by Kenai Timberframes. My permit set is just about done so I will be applying for a building permit. Lead time is about 6-8 weeks from submission of plans to issuance of permit. I am not concerned with any possible changes to the frame. That will not happen at this point. I have the ability to rent a relatively large (16'Wx40'Lx16'H) garage. These spaces are hard to come by for a month to month arrangement, so I want to jump on the opportunity. The frame is approximately 24'x36'. 4 bents, 3 posts per bent. My question is: will cutting the frame and letting it sit for a while have a significant effect on its ability to fit together properly. I plan on keeping my tolerances very low. I plan on sealing the ends and joints with Anchor Seal (unless you tell me of something better).Cutting the frame will take approximately 6 weeks and it could possibly sit for two months after that before I truck it up to the site to raise it. Frame will be kiln dried (not radio frequency) reasawn Doug Fir. Largest timbers are 8x12 (7.5x11.5 reasawn). I am located on the Front Range in Colorado where we are very dry. Any experience/guidance would be very much appreciated.
Well gee was it something I said? :D
Just wondering what the consensus is on this. I have cut a few frames that were raised shortly after. Obviously, no problems. I also helped raise a more than 100 year old barn that was shipped here to Colorado from the east. Went together just fine... Did I just answer my own question? Perhaps. I could see a frame that was cut with green timbers twisting and shaking in the months leading up to raising day. A frame cut with kiln dried timbers would have less shaking and twisting up to raising day. Any thoughts? Bueller? I'm not looking for perfection. In fact, I enjoy some "character". But it would be a shame to spend all of that time and green to cut a wonderful frame that won't quite fit together because it was stored for a few months.
Photos are of a shed I milled and cut with a good friend from lodgepole pine. Maybe a little DF. We have tons of it out here. They grow like weeds. The beetles love em.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36384/IMG_2434~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488598556)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36384/IMG_2433~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488598564)
I have never done any timber framing, but I'll give my two cents. If your rental building is big enough, I would think pinning everything together and letting it lay would help. Unless you think it would be to difficult to knock the pins out when its time for delivery?
Quote from: robmelby on March 04, 2017, 08:35:09 AM
I have never done any timber framing, but I'll give my two cents. If your rental building is big enough, I would think pinning everything together and letting it lay would help. Unless you think it would be to difficult to knock the pins out when its time for delivery?
Unfortunately the building is isn't tall enough for two of the four bents. I see what you mean though. The building has a 16' ceiling but on the house one bent is just over 20 feet. another is right at 16'. The engineer I am working with said the same thing: if I was able to put the bents together it would be fine.
Can they built laying flat on the ground and build each on top of the other?
Quote from: robmelby on March 04, 2017, 10:01:32 AM
Can they built laying flat on the ground and build each on top of the other?
I appreciate the creative thinking. They can't unfortunately. Bents are 24' wide and 16'-20' tall. Garage is 16' tall, 16' wide and 40' long. ::)
Another option I'm thinking would be to have timbers delivered to the site. I could purchase one of those large car canopies and keep everything contained as well as do my cutting there. Only problem is 100MPH winds aren't rare. Don't think those canopies can handle that. :)
When I cut a frame and are concerned about storage time, I don't bore the mortise or tenon peg holes, while cutting joints.
Just before raising, I do a frame fit up. I check each joint (tenon into mortise) and at that time I bore the mortise peg hole and mark the tenon peg hole for draw boring. And bore the tenon peg hole.
By doing my frame fit up just before the raising I have a chance to trim any joints that need improvement to get them to seat properly.
I do the long walls first including the plates and sills (if you have sills):
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF2638.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1196530510)
Then take that all apart and do the other wall. Sometimes this is done on site.
After the two long walls are fit up, I then do the bents and leave them together (again if on site) for raising.
They are laid down with the first bent to be raised on top.
On raising day I know all my joints are going to fit because they have all been together once.
In your case with dry timbers I feel you shouldn't have a problem but I would still do fit up tests before raising day.
Jim Rogers
Cut your frame, stack it in a pile somewhere, raise it when you are ready. If something is going to go wild in storage, there isn't much you can do about it.
Jim, exactly the insight I needed. Thanks a bunch. Looks like I'll be cutting chiseling away at the end of the week. Really, thank you for all you contribute...and the boring machine.
David, thank you as well. Straight forward from someone who has done this more than few times.
I haven't used radio freq dried doug fir, but I'd wonder if just the outside of the timber gave up it's moisture where as it's still holding water in the center? As it sits, will moisture migrate out from the center and cause movement? I know with oak you'd definitely have timbers moving and twisting on you. Try to cut and raise right after.
Quote from: Brad_bb on March 06, 2017, 11:32:46 PM
I haven't used radio freq dried doug fir, but I'd wonder if just the outside of the timber gave up it's moisture where as it's still holding water in the center? As it sits, will moisture migrate out from the center and cause movement? I know with oak you'd definitely have timbers moving and twisting on you. Try to cut and raise right after.
My timbers will be kiln dried. RFKD (radio frequency kiln dried) is not a viable option for the timbers that are over 20' (4 plates in my design). My understanding with RFKD is that no moisture remains in the timber. I would like to take your advice and raise right after I cut. From what I have read and done myself that is the best way to maintain the integrity of the joints and the overall frame. However the timing is a little complicated. I would like to cut the frame as my permit is being processed (8 weeks). I am just going to cut it, stack it, and to a test fit day to make any minor (hopefully) adjustments and boring and pegging. This is per Jim's advice.
I have done a fair amount of milling and if I have learned anything from those experiences it's that stickering properly goes a long way. At the end of the day an 8x12 is gonna do what an 8x12 wants to do. I look forward to sharing this project with the forum. Won't be long now. 8)
OT rambling. I believe RF excites the water all the way to the bone. I've run a couple of RF panel glue machines. When edge gluing 4/4 random layup panels for furniture we would dry to a handling bond in about 30-60 seconds vs 30-60 minutes or longer using bar clamps and regular shop temps. We did breaks each day to check ourselves and the glue was generally pretty evenly "cooked" if I was running well. It could burn wood too, oak was kind of tricky, ever notice how often a lightning strike is an oak. I could also hold a fluorescent bulb beside the machine and light it without touching anything, sort of like the pic of Tesla holding a lit light bulb in one of his high frequency experiments.
For this, I would have a few spare timbers just in case one goes wonky on you.
I'm about to do this I guess so to reiterate what I should do, saw-cut-sticker stack-waiting 6-8 weeks-test fit-adjustments-drill for pegs? Go to chiropractor? Just brought home some logs today!
Quote from: ScottCC on March 10, 2017, 08:41:31 PM
I'm about to do this I guess so to reiterate what I should do, saw-cut-sticker stack-waiting 6-8 weeks-test fit-adjustments-drill for pegs? Go to chiropractor? Just brought home some logs today!
Acupuncturist on standby. Good luck with your build. Keep us all posted. or :snowball:
So... Rdkd is more effective with what???? AC/DC ? OR MOZART or Merle Haggard? :D