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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: YellowHammer on December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

Title: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM
I used to look at quarter sawing as a necessary pain in the rear.  Its painfully slow as it takes one log, and turns them into four, (quarters), which then must be sawn.  So it is at least four times slower for me, or at least sure seems to be.
It has also been pretty unpredictable, with a mix of good figure, and some boards just rift sawn with no figure, and therefore much less value.
I went to the Sycamore Project and watched Jake and Danny and others do some quarter sawing.  One thing I noticed was that with the use of a chain turner, the process was much easier, being able to handle the log better and allowing the log or cant to be reversed rolled and positioned easily.  Unfortunately, my mill doesn't have a chain turner, and I've been trying a bunch of different techniques this year, I've kind of settled on one that is a true qaurtersawn technique, gets full figure in every board, and only requires the log to be split, not quartered.  There is some waste, but not too much, and the sawing is much faster and a lot more productive because I'm sawing half logs, not quarters and constantly reverse or back rolling the log half so without having to do conventional flips or rotations.  Being true quarter sawing, the ray fleck is amazing, much more vivid than I've seen using other techniques.

Anyway, last week, I decided to take some photos of the process.  It's kind of chaotic, and requires holding the cant at all kinds of unusual angles, but the results are terrific.
First off, I have to be able to see the grain clearly, so I can't end seal with Anchorseal.  It obscure the grain too much, so I can't see to rotate the cant correctly.  I also will occasionally take a Sharpie and quickly mark lines perpendicular to the end grain of the log.  Since all logs aren't perfectly round, the grain on some logs isn't circular, but more oval so quickly marking the grain, or marking perpendicular lines helps me drive the rotations better.

So first step is spend a little effort with a tape measure and center the pith on a couple sides, then start skinning the log like a carrot, taking as many thin slices off the bark as necessary to get it cleaned up.  It doesn't need to be a hexagon or octagon or anything in particular, it just doesn't matter.

Then do the conventional thing and take a few good cuts through the center of the log, a couple boards above and below the pith, perpendicular to it, so the boards have the crack in the middle of the boards, and these through sawn boards should show good quartersawn figure.  Here are some 25 inchers, that will be split into a couple 10 inch wides later, after they dry.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3111.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482820407)

I dislike handling the large log halves, so many times I can get lucky and use the two plane clamp under the left side of the log to flip the top half of the log onto the loader arms.  The picture below shows the log after reverse rolling the log halves, which successfully caused the top half to slide into the loader arms, and getting ready for the first pie cuts.  You can just see the back of the two plane clamp against the log half on the loader arms, where I used it to push the log half outboard, off the mill. 

So now with only the one log half on the mill, use the backstops and two plane to position it so the perpendicular Sharpie grain line are slightly above horizontal, to start sawing a little above perpendicular to the grain, so I can get few boards where the lines will then be below perpendicular, or below horizontal of the Sharpie marks.  The log half is not really clamped, it is really just stabilized.  It takes a little while to trust that the log half won't move when sawing, but its rare for it to happen.  The backstops may only be a few inches up, or maybe halfway, and the inboard side of the log half will overhang them, and just need to clear the inboard blade guide rollers.  Its rare to get the backstops fully extended at this point.  I'll work the log half so that I can get a minimum 4 inch board on the first cut by cutting off the top triangle or pie wedge.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3112.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671793)

When the pie or wedge piece comes off it should look like this.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3110.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671851)

Then mill a couple more boards until the grain is not perpendicular and the ray fleck starts to diminish.  Here is what it looks like at that point, in the picture below.  Notice how the grain doesn't have to be exactly perpendicular, but there is a tolerance band that will produce the highly visible ray fleck. This picture also gives a good look at the backstops, only partially extended, tucked under the log edge, holding it up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3114.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671857)
At this point, slide the two plane clamp inboard a little, and the log half will rotate up, until the grain lines are again a little above horizontal like below. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3115.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671898)

Take another pie cut to flatten the tops and the QS grain should jump out again in the next couple, maybe three boards.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3117.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671916)
Then rotate again past horizontal, and take another pie cut and get a few more boards.  The pie cut is actually fairly shallow, just enough to where it's base is about four inches to get me a four inch board on the next cut.  I don't take the whole top off, just enough to get me fleck.  As the boards come off, they get wider and wider, until they get full width of the log half.  All the pie cuts and boards should show strong ray fleck, or rotate the cant a little and take another little slice, basically prospecting for the fleck, if needed.  Most times it shows up on the pie piece.  Eventually, the whole log half is rotated around, taking pie slices and QS boards all the way until the cant is gone.   
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3119.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671932)
Also notice that the cant is not square on the bed of the mill, I'm just clamping it where it needs to be by pushing the two plane inboard and reverse rotating the cant.  Its not being held hard, its just using its own weight to resist the force of the saw blade cutting.  Sometimes, the sawing pattern will cause the grain to get a little out of whack, and hard to visualize as the cant gets smaller or is irregular, here is a picture of an off center hard to visualize cut, but once the top pie it cut off, the boards will be perfectly perpendicular, as seen with the Sharpie ink pen marks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3118.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671936)
Eventually, the log half gets sawn down to just a couple boards, and the Sharpie marks still act as a guide, but the grain visible on the end shows the boards will be good ones.
Sure enough, when they get split, they look like this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3121.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482816739)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3122.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482816764)

Anyway, long post but this technique works great, and has made my quarter sawing a lot faster and much more productive with a minimum of hand touching during the process.









 

 
   
 
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ljohnsaw on December 27, 2016, 03:13:56 AM
Very cool!  I like it.  Now if I only had some oak to ¼ saw!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: fishfighter on December 27, 2016, 04:34:19 AM
Thanks for posting. How much waste you getting?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on December 27, 2016, 05:42:11 AM
Nice clear explanation, YH. I have some oak I just may try that.

Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 27, 2016, 07:56:16 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM
Then do the conventional thing and take a few good cuts through the center of the log, a couple boards above and below the pith, perpendicular to it, so the boards have the crack in the middle of the boards, and these through sawn boards should show good quartersawn figure. 

This is a very important step as you need to cut out the juvenile wood with these first few boards above and below the pith.  Otherwise, the quartersawn boards will side bend.

Robert,

This is excellent!  It has been a challenge quartersawing reverse rolling the log without the chain turner, so I can't wait to try this technique.  You have had your thinking cap on, as usual  ;D.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on December 27, 2016, 08:40:29 AM
Great write up!

True QS is absolutely gorgeous.

I know this question is very log dependent, but what type of yield do you think you get with great figure?  I know a lot of guys won't take the time to qs due to the yield loss and extra labor. 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on December 27, 2016, 08:46:34 AM
Total yield loss qs versus flatsawing is around 35%
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on December 27, 2016, 11:47:33 AM
Robert, great post.
The photos make the technique easy to understand.
Thanks for taking the time and care.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on December 27, 2016, 12:03:19 PM
The quarter sawn boards are stunning.  I am anxious to try that technique on some live oak.

Also, I need a better thinking cap, mine seems to be defective ;D.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ox on December 27, 2016, 12:55:42 PM
Awesome write up and awesome pics, thanks so much for sharing!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: drobertson on December 27, 2016, 01:42:30 PM
Very helpful,  eye popping rays and flecks,
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on December 27, 2016, 05:16:53 PM
Thanks for the post.  Good info.  Pretty lumber.  All QS boards must be edged so an edger is handy if you do it regularly. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on December 27, 2016, 06:49:55 PM
Good Post Robert. Your pictures are right on and very helpful.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: woodworker9 on December 27, 2016, 07:16:10 PM
Thank you for posting.  I always am learning here.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WLC on December 27, 2016, 08:46:28 PM
Only one word:  WOW!!

Thanks for the technique as well.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on December 27, 2016, 09:50:38 PM
Some beautiful lumber there, good stinkin!  Thanks for sharing and taking the time to share with us.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Planman1954 on December 27, 2016, 10:00:28 PM
You made me wanna go try it. ;) :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on December 28, 2016, 02:37:18 AM
Great write up. I'm glad the project helped with the thinking cap.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 28, 2016, 07:49:22 AM
Spoken by one with a chain turner  :D. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 28, 2016, 09:01:44 AM
Thanks for the replies.  When quarter sawing, there is always more waste than flat sawing, but the little pies or wedges get smaller as I gain experience with the technique.  Since I'm targeting 4 inch wide boards and larger, all the wedges should be less than 4 inch wide triangles, many quite thin. 

Trying to minimize waste is very important, as these logs I'm sawing are high dollar stave quality logs, and I need to make very high quality QS wood with lots of figure.  I can explain to my customers until I'm blue in the face about rift sawn and quartersawn wood, and even QS wood that doesn't show figure, and they nod their head, listening, and then always grab the most highly figured pieces. :D  At the end of the day, the highly figured boards are sold, and the only thing left is the plain boards.  So these eventually go on the lower priced stacks and we lose $2 per bdft between what I paid for the logs and what our sales price is.

The place I buy a lot of logs from down the road knows I'm doing a good bit of quarter sawing these days and gave me a Christmas present.  They had a huge red oak log, well over 60 inches in diameter, and it took two Deere 544 loaders to get it off the log truck.  So they figured I'd want it and told one of their guys to go ahead and quarter it with a chainsaw so I could actually handle it.  When I showed up, I saw the quarters, the smallest about 30 inches across, just plain huge.  They loaded all four quarters on my trailer, and it was a full load.  For reference, the trailer uprights are 32 inches tall, and the quarters are taller. Thes will be fun.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3124.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933351)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3125.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933340)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Lud on December 28, 2016, 10:24:56 AM
I've had some success quarter sawing but will try your technique next time. 
Well Done! 8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 28, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Robert,

You have a lucky horseshoe hidden somewhere on your Farm  :-*. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on December 28, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Very nice.  I'll have to stop by Woodmizer and look at clamping systems.  I have an LT15go and just have conventional clamps.  Boy If I could automate more it would be nice.  I wish they offered more options on the LT15 so you could upgrade as you can afford it.  I have to have the LT15 because I have the MP100 beam planer which requires a 2 rail mill.  Since that is the case, I think they should offer a lot more upgrade options.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on December 28, 2016, 04:47:12 PM
Quote from: WDH on December 28, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Robert,

You have a lucky horseshoe hidden somewhere on your Farm  :-*.

What about yours?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 28, 2016, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on December 28, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Very nice.  I'll have to stop by Woodmizer and look at clamping systems.  I have an LT15go and just have conventional clamps.  Boy If I could automate more it would be nice.  I wish they offered more options on the LT15 so you could upgrade as you can afford it.  I have to have the LT15 because I have the MP100 beam planer which requires a 2 rail mill.  Since that is the case, I think they should offer a lot more upgrade options.

They do have a big options upgrade for your mill. The part number is LT28.
Very easy to do. You have someone unscrew the fuel cap and hold ir about 6"
above the tank while someone pulls the mill out from under it. Then you back
the new part (LT28) under the cap and help screw it back on. You will be surprised
how much difference it makes. I think there is other options to.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 28, 2016, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AMThe log half is not really clamped, it is really just stabilized.  It takes a little while to trust that the log half won't move when sawing, but its rare for it to happen.   

Quote from: Brad_bb on December 28, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Very nice.  I'll have to stop by Woodmizer and look at clamping systems.  I have an LT15go and just have conventional clamps. 

Notice what Robert said about clamping in the OP.  Those log halves are heavy.  You are not actually clamping it, you are stabilizing it.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 29, 2016, 06:27:16 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 28, 2016, 09:01:44 AM
  At the end of the day, the highly figured boards are sold, and the only thing left is the plain boards.  So these eventually go on the lower priced stacks and we lose $2 per bdft between what I paid for the logs and what our sales price is.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3124.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933351)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3125.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933340)




What::) I think you're paying too much for some logs. :new_year:
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on December 29, 2016, 08:56:28 AM
Thanks for this writeup. I'll try it next time.  First Bibby the log, then (Yellow)Hammer it! :D :D :D

I usually have 3 pieces on the loading arms trying to keep them there or one on the ground too.   And forgetting which face to cut off of one or more of them by the time it comes back onto the mill.

This method seems to:
-neatly organizes the quarter sawing both mentally and in material handling.   Organization helps efficiency and is always good for business.
-do the best for each piece of QS lumber that is in the log
-replace time spent getting a big half vertical, and handling other pieces, with time where the blade is in the wood.


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 29, 2016, 09:27:04 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 29, 2016, 06:27:16 AM
What::) I think you're paying too much for some logs.

I always think I pay too much for logs!  I just can't convince the loggers that.  However, at just our retail selling price difference of FAS white oak vs QS white oak, it's a difference of $1.50 per Bdft lost if a board doesn't have fleck. 

TerrificTimber
I agree, juggling log quarters is very frustrating and time consuming, and this eliminates that.  The bigger the log, the bigger the pain juggling quarters.  Generally, the only time the log half has to be hand touched would be the second log half, depending on how it lands when it comes off the bottom half, it may have to be flipped over to get the round side down on the bed rails.  Sometime the two plane will do it, sometimes not.  So if it lands wrong side down, then, with the log half on the loader arms, back the two plane into the left side of the log, as outboard as possible, maybe a couple inches up, and raise the loader arms.  The log half will hang on the back of the two plane, and if it doesn't trip and fall over when I raise the loader arms, then I use a logrite to grab the top of the half and nudge it past it's balance point and trip it over on the bed.  Make sure the backstops are all the way up or she will go over the other side of the mill.   
I have a grapple on my tractor I can use to physically remove the top log half if I want, but its just one more thing to do, and tripping it with the two plane while it's on the mill works fine. 

Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on December 29, 2016, 11:13:50 AM
Perfect timing YH.  I have a large red oak I need to cut and try this method. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 29, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 29, 2016, 09:27:04 AM
Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....

Sometimes, those guys can get an attitude  :) ;D. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on December 29, 2016, 11:01:37 PM
Quote from: WDH on December 29, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 29, 2016, 09:27:04 AM
Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....

Sometimes, those guys can get an attitude  :) ;D .


These frozen logs that are covered in ice (and mud) can be a bear to turn with the claw/clamp sometimes...sometimes I wonder how hard it would be to put a chain turner on there, and other times I want to drag the 40 super to WM and trade it in on a 70 super  ;D


But then I figure I'll let them get all the bugs worked out of them before I go and do something like that
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 30, 2016, 09:19:14 AM
Around 20 years ago I picked up a new hydraulic chain turner for a saw mill
at our local junkyard. At the time I did not even know what it was. I only
got it for the hoses and the hydraulic motor that was on it. So it has been
sitting out in the weather all this time. Maybe its time to do something with it.
This was in new condition when I found it. I'm not sure that I have room to
mount this unit under my small mill.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/DSC05123.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483107346)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/DSC05124.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483107405)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/DSC05125.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483107459)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 30, 2016, 08:35:12 PM
I can't believe someone through that way!! Kbeitz
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 30, 2016, 10:32:41 PM
It could have been from a stolen sawmill and they carried it to the scrapyard a piece at the time.   :-\
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 31, 2016, 12:08:42 AM
Kbietz, what an excellent find.  Looks pretty beefy.

I was working on some oversized red oak quarters today, and took a few more photos.  This is more of typical conventional quartersawing, and I wasn't really reverse rolling, just doing what I could to get them up in the mill and sawn.  This log was quartered for me with a chainsaw as a present by someone else and weren't halves.  However, I wasn't complaining, they were as big as my mill would take.

These big guys were difficult to maneuver, and my two plane would barely lift them.  However, with a little bit of wrestling, I got the first quarter in position, and didn't push it over the back side.   

Here is a picture of it rotated so that the growth rings are perpendicular the the band.  The log clamping look precarious, but it's steady. The first wedge has been cut.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3151.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152587)

I was not real happy with the figure, so did some grain prospecting.  Basically, I'll make slight adjustments, and in this case raised the rear toe board some, and rotated a few more degrees.  Then I took a shallow skim pass and found the fleck.   
In the picture below, the right board is the wedge cut with minimal fleck that I wasn't happy with, the left board is the thin prospecting cut with fleck.  The fleck still wasn't that great, but better than what was in the wedge cut.  I didn't have to change the angle much to see better results.  This is one advantage of taking the first cut off the narrow top, it's easy to search for and find the fleck without wasting a wide board.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3152.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152591)

Once the fleck is found, then start at the top and work down as far as the mill will go on on the perpendicular rings.  Then do some more rotations and keep whittling.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3154.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152603)

The cant was so big the left side of the log was brushing the inboard rollers, almost hitting the upright, and the right side was almost touching the outboard side.  Max mill capacity on QS boards, big boards, 26 inch or so across coming off. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3157.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152615)



Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 31, 2016, 12:13:34 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 30, 2016, 08:35:12 PM
I can't believe someone through that way!! Kbeitz
About one a month I find something as good as that to bring home
from that same yard.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 31, 2016, 06:06:26 AM
Well, It must be you and maybe 2 other guys are picking.
Here you have to be lucky I have 50 guys picking. I do find a lot too.

YH, good job, That's big wood :o I have been doing that too, Near the end of it I sometimes flip the thing so my dog board is 5/4 ¼ sawn too.
:new_year:
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on January 01, 2017, 07:57:31 AM
Should I move?  I can't pick at my dump.  :-[
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on January 01, 2017, 10:00:12 AM
I would show some of the stuff I found but this is getting off topic.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on January 02, 2017, 08:32:47 AM
Quote from: Kbeitz on January 01, 2017, 10:00:12 AM
I would show some of the stuff I found but this is getting off topic.


Make a new thread then over on the general board?  Junkyard finds...
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on January 25, 2017, 05:48:37 PM
Nice Christmas present, and what a load.
That load is centered nicely.
Good thing, otherwise your trailer might be doing a reverse roll too!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 05, 2017, 10:24:54 PM
I was a doing some more quartersawing and decided I'd take a picture of every cut.  I wanted to see how many misses I would have, and maybe help explain the way I've been doing it lately.  There are lots of ways to quarter saw, but this technique works best for me, and allows me to start with a full half log and not quarter it.  This means a lot less hands on log handling, and less pieces of log pushed on the loader arms to deal with later.  Then by simply rolling the half log up into the band, allows me to just keep on sawing, one board after another.
I put a bunch of marks, way more than I usually do, on the end of the log to make it easier to see the rays and grain in the photos, and also allows me to keep track of the rays in my sawing pattern.  If you look at the pictures, you'll notice that many times I'm coming way off ray, but still take a cut based on the previous cut, knowing I'd get at least one good side.
This goes pretty fast, and I never have to touch the cant, I can do all the rotations with the hydraulics.  Basically just take a half a log and whittle it until it's gone. 

Bottom line, I only missed the QS fleck on one board, and it was a narrow starter wedge, which is the idea because I don't miss on a wide board.  I was able to immediately go back and make a wedge cut, and scored again.  Anyway, lots of pics to follow, generally an end view of the cut, and the resulting board.  I really like this technique, because I know the next board will have fleck, or I can make a simple adjustment to get it.  No guessing, just results.



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A miss, so I make a wedge cut and hit it again



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Using the two plane to hold the cant off the bed to get a good angle on the cut



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Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on February 05, 2017, 10:39:12 PM
Beautiful lumber  8)


Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: sawwood on February 05, 2017, 11:02:44 PM
I have watch a few you tube videos and have seen some photos on here showing how to quarter saw. I would some one to
make a video showing first on the log where the grain is and where to make the cuts. Then from start all the way to the end
even if it take a two part video to show the hole proses. I all ways seem they cut it two short and I don't get how some of the
cuts are made. We have a manual mill and it take some time to try and cut a log quarter saw.

Sawwood
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 05, 2017, 11:40:04 PM
Sure looks like you get better results this way than I've gotten sawing off the bottom.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on February 06, 2017, 06:50:12 AM
Very good job YH, I do the same with marking the ends to show the rings. Sometimes the log has enough trim to cut off a ½" so I can see them better.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on February 06, 2017, 10:06:25 AM
Wonderful tutorial.

Great job and THANKS!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on February 06, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
Rings mean nothing.  I always mark the rays (red marks) for the best flake.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF8878.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1461896183)

After a while it becomes clear as too which log will be the easiest to quarter saw.  It is also helpful to look at both ends of the log. 

The thickness of the rays are also an excellent predictor of flake quality.  The thicker the ray the better. 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Engineer on February 07, 2017, 03:00:30 PM
Very nice looking lumber.

Earlier in the thread you said that you don't seal the logs because you can't see the grain or rays.  Maybe worth it to cut off no more than an inch off the end of the log just before you mark it.  That way you can still use sealer, it's protected until you're ready to cut it, and then you just shave off a very thin cookie and can clearly see your rays and mark them.  I always liked to start a log on a clean end, especially if I needed to know where the pith or grain direction was. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on February 08, 2017, 12:33:48 AM
I love this concept.  I have a manual mill (LT15GO), but I'm looking into adding manual toe boards and manual turner.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on February 08, 2017, 03:16:46 AM
You done good. It is better to waste a wedge cut to make sure you get the rays. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 08, 2017, 10:41:05 PM
Jake, thanks.

Quote from: Engineer on February 07, 2017, 03:00:30 PM

Earlier in the thread you said that you don't seal the logs because you can't see the grain or rays.  Maybe worth it to cut off no more than an inch off the end of the log just before you mark it.  That way you can still use sealer, it's protected until you're ready to cut it, and then you just shave off a very thin cookie and can clearly see your rays and mark them.  I always liked to start a log on a clean end, especially if I needed to know where the pith or grain direction was.

This is one of tricks that I been using that has really helped, which is start from the old, cracking end of the log. I buck the log longer than I need anyway, in this case about 8'6" or so, and if I let the log sit a few days or so, the rays will start cracking and making them very easy to see and really lets me see my sawing lines, in addition to the marker lines.  The rays cracking are a dead giveaway of where I need to put the band.  If you look at the bottom part of the cant (zoom in) you'll see slight but distinct end checking in the rays, which is why I didn't always need to use a Sharpie to mark them, Mother Nature does it for me.  It's a case of the less I do, the easier it becomes.   

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3273.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345795)

After sawing, the boards come right off the drag back and are deadstacked on an 8 foot pallet. Then I use the chainsaw to trim the entire pack to length, cutting off the checked ends, and immediately Anchorseal.  I've been doing a good deal of this packsawing and trimming technique, and I would rather buck or pack saw two ends of a pallet of wood to bring them to length. than a bunch of logs.  I'm getting lazy in my old age, trying to find easier ways.....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: SlowJoeCrow on February 09, 2017, 11:40:13 AM
Great tip!  This way you are only chainsawing finished boards, not the bark (and potential dirt), maximizing the chain life of the saw as well.  Smart!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: John S on February 09, 2017, 05:15:43 PM
I have read this post twice so far and think I get it.  Great job, and I will try it when the snow melts here.  I think this is very similar to the method that Marty Parsons demonstrated at the PA Owners day last October.  What blade are you using on your mill?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 5quarter on February 10, 2017, 01:24:28 AM
Yellowhammer...that is some sweet looking lumber! That is pretty much the same way I QS. I tried to explain it once quite awhile ago, but your explanation is practically a handbook!  ;) :D On smaller logs up to about 32", i'll split in two, taking only 2 boards out of the center. On the bigger logs, I will split in thirds with the chainsaw. When sawing, the size of the wedge I take is determined by measuring about 2½" above the plane where the blade would intersect the upper right corner of the cant. That way I can get 2 boards; one narrow and one full width. Ideally I continue the wedge-board-board pattern until the cant is sawn up., but I have yet to encounter the ideal log  ;). Do you trim off your angled edges straight off the saw or after they're dried? I do mine right off the saw, but I HATE edging on the saw if I can help it.  :(
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 10, 2017, 07:22:30 AM
Robert,

You keep doing this and you will have to have an edger  :-\ :-* ;D :D.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 10, 2017, 07:58:11 AM
An edger is sure something I think about a good deal, and pretty much every board that comes off will have an odd, angled edge.  If I could find a decent one for a good price, I'd get it, but in all honesty, I haven't been able to justify or even find one it, at least a good one.  Seems very few people in this area use WM, Cooks, or Timber King style edgers, and it's very difficult to find a late model used one, and the 40 year old PTO versions of others types that have been left in the hayfield for decades are rusted junk and are way overpriced. 

I have been keeping my eyes open, and have been watching, but no luck yet.  Some of the bigger mills around here use big old 1945 straight line rip saws for accurate dimensional edging on green lumber, others use the new technology that edges boards so fast it's amazing.  I have been considering getting a vintage SLR for that purpose. 

I have two other options that make it a difficult decistion.  First is that there is a place down the road who will straight line rip every dried board for 15 cents per bdft, and also I can straight line mine as well, once they are dried, and I get a joint quality edge.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sirh2Tf-0Y0
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on February 10, 2017, 09:28:44 AM
As nice of q sawn lumber as you have, I would be uneasy about letting it leave for fear that you wouldnt get it back.
Our edger almost always takes 2 people and if you edge on the mill with 2 people it isnt so painfull. The WM single edger is the exception. I could edge on it alone and it was just a hair faster than on the mill.
PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on February 11, 2017, 11:33:14 PM
Robert:


http://meadowsmills.com/mineredger.html


Meadows Mills supposed to be a good company
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: D6c on February 12, 2017, 06:40:39 PM
You're getting some beautiful looking oak with that method.
One question....wouldn't that be more what you'd call rift sawing?
Like this: http://www.hardwooddistributors.org/blog/postings/what-is-rift-sawn-lumber/
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ga Mtn Man on February 12, 2017, 07:02:23 PM
That looks like text-book quarter-sawn lumber to me...rings at 90° to the cut face.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on February 12, 2017, 08:36:46 PM
D6c, that picture has been shown before.  The top picture is rift sawn, and the bottom illustration is quarter sawing not rift.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 13, 2017, 12:44:28 AM
Not everything you read on the internet is correct.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: D6c on February 13, 2017, 12:50:25 PM
Quote from: Magicman on February 12, 2017, 08:36:46 PM
D6c, that picture has been shown before.  The top picture is rift sawn, and the bottom illustration is quarter sawing not rift.

You're right....seems like I've seen another place that had it backwards like that too.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: footer on February 13, 2017, 03:38:01 PM
I couldn't tell you how many places on the internet I have seen that picture, or similar, with someone arguing that the bottom picture is rift sawn. Here is a long thread form years back on this exact same thing.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=79020.0 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=79020.0)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Nomad on February 13, 2017, 07:04:02 PM
Quote from: D6c on February 12, 2017, 06:40:39 PM
You're getting some beautiful looking oak with that method.
One question....wouldn't that be more what you'd call rift sawing?
Like this: http://www.hardwooddistributors.org/blog/postings/what-is-rift-sawn-lumber/

     What kills me is they're suggesting this to avoid the medullary rays.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 13, 2017, 10:59:08 PM
Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on November 14, 2014, 10:29:22 AM
For hardwood lumber, quartersawn has three definitions.  Perhaps the most useful comes from the National Hardwood Lumber Association.  It applies to species with the ray fleck pattern on a radial surface.  If the fleck is visible on 80% of the surface (used for grading), then the piece is quartersawn.  This definition certainly helps satisfy the customer's desires when they quest quartersawn. In order to get the fleck pattern the annual growth rings, when viewed from the end grain, need to be between 75 to 90 degrees to the face...not part of the definition but rather what will exist.

With my customers, this is the definition that applies when they are paying for the more expensive QS wood.  If it doesn't have ray fleck, it's not what they want. 

Thats one of the interesting things about marking the rays, its very educational to see just how far off angle the QS ray fleck will show.  On some logs, there is a lot of forgiveness and almost no correction wedge cuts need to be made.  On other logs, they are very tight and unforgiving, and it's very easy to lose the ray fleck. 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 14, 2017, 07:39:54 AM
No matter the angle, I do not consider oak quartersawn unless there is ray fleck. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on February 14, 2017, 01:50:10 PM
Happy Birthday YH :)

Quote from: YellowHammer on February 13, 2017, 10:59:08 PM
Thats one of the interesting things about marking the rays, its very educational to see just how far off angle the QS ray fleck will show.  On some logs, there is a lot of forgiveness and almost no correction wedge cuts need to be made.  On other logs, they are very tight and unforgiving, and it's very easy to lose the ray fleck.

A little picture of burr oak where rays are nice and fat.  Makes sawing for fleck a lot easier.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/P7210005.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1192058240)

YH has come up with a method to maximize figure by putting more effort and time into sawing.  I think its a great idea to insure each board shows its full figure.  I bet those boards make a nice return on effort. :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 14, 2017, 08:05:50 PM
Larry,

That is a great pic. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 14, 2017, 08:36:44 PM
If only I would've had all this info before I sawed up all my black oak. I have some good figure but I could have done better.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 14, 2017, 11:53:00 PM
Quote from: WDH on February 14, 2017, 08:05:50 PM
Larry,

That is a great pic. 
Yes. Very good. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on February 15, 2017, 09:38:30 AM
Yellowhammer
I cut a couple of large oak logs this week and used a couple different methods.  Haven't tried your method yet.  I ended up with about 50% quartersawn and the rest were rift sawn.  I was wondering what percent most people get that is QS and how your Reverse roll method does?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 15, 2017, 10:49:07 PM
Quote from: flatrock58 on February 15, 2017, 09:38:30 AM
Yellowhammer
I was wondering what percent most people get that is QS and how your Reverse roll method does?
That's the point of this technique, the goal is to get every single board to show ray fleck.  Also, the exploratory wedge cuts on the narrow sides of the log half are to confirm that the angle and geometry of the cut is good and will show fleck, before wide boards are sawn.  On most conventional techniques, the first cuts are made through the wide part of the log half to make quarters, and these boards are sawn widest down to narrowest.  So misses can occur on the widest boards.  Using the technique I'm using, as I'm sawing narrowest to widest, I know for sure, board after board, will have ray fleck.  No guessing.
So in reply 43, I showed every cut on the half log, which was about 30 inches in diameter.  Every board came off with fleck, except a narrow starter wedge. 
It may not be the fastest technique, but I don't think it's slower than any other, and my stress level goes way down, as I know I'm in good wood the whole log. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on February 17, 2017, 07:29:24 PM
Yellowhammer,
I guess I assumed you didn't get QS on every board.  How much waist is there with all the times you cut wedges?  I will have to try it.  You are getting some really nice QS boards!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 17, 2017, 10:55:11 PM
The waste varies from log to log.  It just depends in how forgiving the log is.  The main thing is to never lose it, just as it starts thinning, rotate the log, and get back in it. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on February 20, 2017, 11:14:03 AM
Very insightful technique - thanks for sharing.

One other benefit of this method is that every board is at maximum width.  With other methods of QSing you will end up with a mix of board widths.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 22, 2017, 12:24:05 AM
Yes, you are correct, this gives a much higher percentage of wide boards. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on February 28, 2017, 08:18:39 PM
I tried it with my manual MP32 on a knotty 16" short white oak. Not much to be lost if I screw up. I halved the log and cut two 16" QS boards just above the pith and the remainder I sawed ala reverse QSing.

My cam clamps did a good job of reverse rolling the cant. (Not shown is a wedge behind the log to at as a stop.)


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020328.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329907)

First triangular waste piece.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020330.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329915)

Thin waste piece coming off.
 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020332.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329980)

Sawing off the bottom for the last piece.
 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020335.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329999)

QS lumber ranged in width from 3 to 5 inches. Looks to me like there is still some rift sawn but for the 1st time I am pretty pleased.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020339.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488330067)

The waste is on the left.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020336.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488330050)

Comments/suggestions welcome.
Bob

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 28, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Congratulations, looks like you zeroed in real quick in picture 2, and nailed the fleck on the first wedge.  The fleck on the wedge look better than the through sawn surface.

I noticed that in picture 5, the log had a LOT of grain change, and the fleck moved a lot, which usually means it is very hard to stay on the fleck, however, you were able to cut boards with full width fleck, which again means you were dead on target, especially with the wider boards, as the technique is supposed to do.  The boards look good.

It also looks like the two full width center cut boards had less fleck than the RRQS boards.  This is something I've noticed also, and I have been taking less boards through the pith and getting right to slicing and dicing, as it allows the log half to be thicker, and RRQS boards to be wider.

I'm glad it worked with a manual mill, was it hard to hold? 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on March 01, 2017, 08:23:39 AM
I think the knots in this trial log contributed to the wandering grain.

The hold felt precarious - it was held mostly by gravity - the clamps and wedges mostly just stabilized it enough to keep the cant in place. I sawed slowly so little disturbing force was applied and nothing shifted. I was pleased how it all worked on this small log.

It did take longer than sawing quarters off the bottom and flipping but some of the time was a learning curve. So far I plan for RRQSing to be my go-to method for QS. We will see when I tackle some larger WO on my rollway. Thanks for the feedback.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 01, 2017, 09:10:28 AM
Bottom line, you've got yourself some purdy boards.  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on March 02, 2017, 08:31:46 PM
WOW....

Yesterday we tried this technique for the first time and to say the least I was extremely impressed.

We started off with an 11' long WO log with a 19" small end diameter.  This log scaled to 175 board feet on International.  Due to the inherent losses when following traditional quartersawn methods, we anticipate a 30% yield loss over the international scale when following standard quartersawing methods.

However, with the Reverse Roll method we netted 145 board feet actual, which is about 12% greater than expected (18% yield loss instead of 30%).

We followed our standard QS procedures for the first portion of the milling; ie trim off the bark to turn the log into an octagon instead of a square cant, centering the pith on both ends and trimming the bark off on a taper instead of squaring it.  This results in tapered width boards from end to end, but most of our customers don't mind the fact that one end of the board is wider than the other and we get the benefit of a higher yield.

After trimming the bark we followed the Reverse Roll QS method.  We started by marking the medullary rays that we wanted to follow, and then started milling for 5/4 dry measure boards.  Typically we mill 5/4 boards at 1-7/16" to allow for drying related shrinkage (QS shrinks twice as much as FS when drying). 

With the reverse roll method we simply lowered the head 1-1/2" with each cut (after aligning the blade with the top of the partial cant after each turn).  After allowing for blade kerf we are netting a milled board right around 1-13/32" thick which will dry to 5/4.

We found the Reverse Roll method to be faster and easier, and one that clearly produced a higher yield of high fleck material as well as a higher percentage of wider boards. 

Many thanks for sharing this method.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Qweaver on March 02, 2017, 08:56:31 PM
This is what I really love about the Peterson...quarter saw the entire log without turning.  Takes a big log to work well tho'
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on March 02, 2017, 11:06:10 PM
Scsmith42
I'm glad the technique passed the test.  When milling for money, such as you do, higher yield and faster production is what it's all about.
Thanks for letting us know about your success with technique.  I'm glad it showed positive benefit.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on March 03, 2017, 08:00:07 AM
Robert, you need to file a patent.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 03, 2017, 08:13:08 AM
If you wanted to end up with some 2 inch dry planed boards (then milled I guess they'd have to be almost 2.5 inches)  would the reverse roll method still be used and could I get QS on both sides?  Or would I just have to accept rift on two sides or quarter on one side and rift on the other?  Part of it would depend on size of log I'm sure- the bigger the diameter, the more forgiving it would probably be to a wider board at the outside.  The biggest I have is 30 on the small end.  I want to build a heavy door like an antique one I've seen and the perimeter rails and styles be quarter sawn WO.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crossroads on March 03, 2017, 10:38:14 AM
Thanks for sharing your technique, I have a couple oak logs laying in my yard that I hadn't decided what to do with them.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on March 03, 2017, 02:15:25 PM
Quote from: Qweaver on March 02, 2017, 08:56:31 PMThis is what I really love about the Peterson...quarter saw the entire log without turning.
Quartersaw yes, but I doubt that you could effectively "chase the ray fleck" with a swingmill.   ???
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on March 03, 2017, 03:20:48 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on March 03, 2017, 08:13:08 AM
If you wanted to end up with some 2 inch dry planed boards (then milled I guess they'd have to be almost 2.5 inches)  would the reverse roll method still be used and could I get QS on both sides?  Or would I just have to accept rift on two sides or quarter on one side and rift on the other?  Part of it would depend on size of log I'm sure- the bigger the diameter, the more forgiving it would probably be to a wider board at the outside.  The biggest I have is 30 on the small end.  I want to build a heavy door like an antique one I've seen and the perimeter rails and styles be quarter sawn WO.

It depends upon the log but I think that you would be yielding high fleck QS on both faces of the board.  If you want to net 2" after drying and planing, you probably better mill at 2-5/8" green.  QSWO will shrink 12% or so during drying, so a 2.675" green board will dry to around 2-1/4", allowing you 1/8" per side for S2S.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 03, 2017, 07:37:16 PM
Thanks scsmith42!  I have a toe board for my mill now that I will install and show in a post soon.  Next I need to work on a turner and I'll be set.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on March 03, 2017, 09:00:32 PM
I had never purposely set out to quarter saw any lumber, but this thread crossed with a few white oak logs I was sawing for grade I decided to try it. It worked just as well for me and I was using the old mill with the flip clamp. Sure makes some marvelous looking lumber! Thanks.

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 03, 2017, 09:45:52 PM
Paul, I was wondering how my old flip clamp would work, thanks for that bit of info.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on March 03, 2017, 10:56:05 PM
I am greatly pleased folks are having success with this technique. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on March 04, 2017, 07:51:50 AM
Sharing is the Forestry Forum way, and it always makes two people happy.   ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 04, 2017, 08:13:34 AM
What's a flip clamp?  Pics?  Or better yet Vid?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on March 04, 2017, 08:22:07 AM
Here is a video. However I know of more of them like mine where the auto up down flipper doesnt work and you use your God given tools to put it up and down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGJaiNh8v6I

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on March 04, 2017, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on December 29, 2016, 08:56:28 AM
Thanks for this writeup. I'll try it next time.  First Bibby the log, then (Yellow)Hammer it! :D :D :D

Quote from: WDH on March 03, 2017, 08:00:07 AM
Robert, you need to file a patent.

Hey, I'll call it the YellowHammer Reverse Roll Quartersawing Technique

Or the shorter, easier, and much more convienient abbreviation YHRRQST :D :D 

For some reason, "Bibbying" rolls off the tongue better. 

Where's Poston when you need him?   :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on March 04, 2017, 10:16:31 AM
In the Goat pen. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 04, 2017, 11:25:01 AM
Doin what goats do.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on March 04, 2017, 05:56:45 PM
Quote from: WDH on March 04, 2017, 10:16:31 AM
In the Goat pen.

Y'all think ya can talk about me and I won't know it.....shhhhhhh....
I got an I on Y'all.....
Or the shorter, easier, and much more convienient abbreviation ......

IGAIOY.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 04, 2017, 06:01:18 PM
Look out we all have been IGAIOYEd!   :P
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on March 04, 2017, 08:02:01 PM
Oh No!  I have been IGAIOYed. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 07, 2017, 10:16:26 PM
I nearly think this post should be a sticky.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 21, 2017, 11:32:32 PM
One of the things I learned at the Sycamore Project was that I needed a bigger chainsaw bar to more conveniently split big logs in half.  For quartersawing, bigger logs is better, and around here, once they get real big, their price goes down because the big mills don't want to mess with them.  So bigger logs for less money means I needed to learn some tricks of splitting logs.  Customsawyer did a great demo ripping a log in half, so it inspired me to get a bigger bar. 

After many, many phone calls I finally located a 52 inch Forester bar. 
Here is the long bar, mounted on the saw, resting on the BushHog, and it seems to do real well so far.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0253.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498102152)

Here is also the latest load of quartersawn wood straight from the kiln, about to be dead stacked, for its trip to the planer.  About 3,500 board feet, give or take, some boards more than 16 inches wide.  The owner of the commercial wood millwright shop that does the planing told me that he had not seen quartersawn wood that wide in decades and everybody was talking about it at the shop. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0229.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498100964)


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on June 22, 2017, 05:24:49 AM
That should do the job, 8) 8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: warren46 on June 22, 2017, 07:01:20 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 21, 2017, 11:32:32 PM
One of the things I learned at the Sycamore Project was that I needed a bigger chainsaw bar to more conveniently split big logs in half.  ... So bigger logs for less money means I needed to learn some tricks of splitting logs.  Customsawyer did a great demo ripping a log in half, so it inspired me to get a bigger bar. 

After many, many phone calls I finally located a 52 inch Forester bar. 
Here is the long bar, mounted on the saw, resting on the BushHog, and it seems to do real well so far.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0253.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498102152)

Here is also the latest load of quartersawn wood straight from the kiln, about to be dead stacked, for its trip to the planer.  About 3,500 board feet, give or take, some boards more than 16 inches wide.  The owner of the commercial wood millwright shop that does the planing told me that he had not seen quartersawn wood that wide in decades and everybody was talking about it at the shop. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0229.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498100964)

I split this one with a 60 cc saw and a 24" bar.  It took a little work with wedges and a maul to finish the job.

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33392/Log_Split_Standing.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1497798046)

I got some 22 inch wide boards out of each quarter.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33392/Twenty_Inch_Qsawn_Figure.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1497797973)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: rasman57 on June 22, 2017, 03:43:05 PM
Wow.  Sweet!
I wonder if that blade comes with an optional truss and directions to the chiropractor ... wheeliechair
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Savannahdan on June 22, 2017, 05:22:21 PM
Just lay the bar and chain on the log and it'll do the work.  Have fun!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 28, 2017, 07:48:23 AM
I am going to have to work some more on the finer points of reverse roll quartersawing  :D



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2105.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506599270)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on September 28, 2017, 08:11:24 AM
That happens to me too often, quarter sawing or not. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on September 28, 2017, 08:25:52 AM
Danny,

   I never do things like that - unless there is a big audience.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on September 28, 2017, 08:42:07 AM
I thought you was gona talk about reverse roll quarter sawing and here is Danny setting up his skateboard/bicycle ramp on the tire of his sawmill. Obviously he has been grinding that ramp a lot to have the edges all smoothed off at such angles so you know this isn't the first time. ;D ;D ;D

I have had a request from a landowner that we are now logging on, for 800 bdft of q sawn lumber from his post oak trees. They have quite a few that are pretty nice and I hate wasting much of them, so i devised a plan. The logs are big. I think we will be able to saw out a 23'' cant without too much bark on the corners. Then we will saw a 7x9 tie out of the heart leaving 4 pieces that should yield 50% quarter sawn material and the other 50% will be grade,some of which will need edged. I realize that the q sawn stuff will not be perfect, but will yield edged boards that are 6''to 8'' wide.

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 28, 2017, 08:41:51 PM
Well, it was looking good up until then. :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on September 28, 2017, 08:54:22 PM
I looked across the mill at the other tire to make sure there wasn't another ramp over there. :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on September 28, 2017, 09:34:30 PM
Quote from: WDH on September 28, 2017, 07:48:23 AM
I am going to have to work some more on the finer points of reverse roll quartersawing  :D



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2105.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506599270)

oops.....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on September 28, 2017, 10:45:05 PM
I hate it when that happens :D




Hey I have a public service announcement to all you pith measurers..I noticed at the project I was at two years ago that yawl measure the pith from the bed up to it to level it.  We all know that the log aint never in the perfect spot to do that and sometimes its hard to get an accurate reading.  So I'll just share what I like to do, it might add an extra second to the front end but it takes two off the back end and is more accurate.  I bring the head up high enough to clear the whole log front to back, and drive the sawhead over each end of the log and measure down from the blade to the pith to get it level.  Obviously make sure you don't move the head up or down, keep it at say 34" for example. On the WM mills you can slightly adjust the head to being perfectly over the pith if you over/undershoot it.  I just hook the tape to the back of the blade and measure down.  If the log is too big to drive the head over then u gotta eyeba it and trim it first then adjust it or just do it from the bed.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on September 28, 2017, 11:18:08 PM
4x4, that's how I do it.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on September 28, 2017, 11:29:15 PM
Quote from: Darrel on September 28, 2017, 11:18:08 PM
4x4, that's how I do it.


I invented it go away!!  lol
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ljohnsaw on September 29, 2017, 12:34:54 AM
I just lay a 4 foot level across my rails and measure up from that.  I can do that anywhere.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on September 29, 2017, 07:24:04 AM
I use two T-rulers, one at each end of the mill. See reply #7 in https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,52765.msg761559.html#msg761559
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 29, 2017, 07:51:47 AM
I guess that I am just a Southern Pith Measurer  :).   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on September 29, 2017, 08:22:54 AM
It is a pithy job.   ::)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on September 29, 2017, 09:02:38 AM
Quote from: 4x4American on September 28, 2017, 11:29:15 PM
Quote from: Darrel on September 28, 2017, 11:18:08 PM
4x4, that's how I do it.


I invented it go away!!  lol

Hey, you're the one That made the public service announcement. I was just keeping it all to myself.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on September 29, 2017, 10:10:15 AM
That works fine if your blade clears the log but I don't like messing with those little ones.  ;)
Danny I have never shown you that technique.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on September 29, 2017, 10:28:21 AM
Nobody on FF ever "pleads the pith".   :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Roxie on September 29, 2017, 11:54:58 AM
Yer killing me!   :D :D :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: barbender on September 29, 2017, 12:41:34 PM
 :D That's a great idea, both of you :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 29, 2017, 02:41:36 PM
No Jake, you are right.  I demonstrated that technique all by myself, but I did not invent it.  I suspect that 4x4 American, D-U-G developed it in secret. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on September 30, 2017, 09:55:04 PM
I just got a log from the city yesterday.  It is a 36" 100 year old red oak.  I spent most of its life on the edge of a field and the pith is off center a good bit.  If I want to try and maximize the quarter sawn wood would I still try to center the pith or center the log?




 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37117/IMG_6864.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506822813)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 30, 2017, 10:38:16 PM
Having an off center pith log is a gift when quarter sawing.  Split it down the pith, and concentrate your efforts on the larger "half" of the log.  In essence, since the "half" is actually more then half the log then you will get wider quarter sawn boards from it. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on September 30, 2017, 10:39:34 PM
Look at the rays.  Take a marker and mark them.  This will give you a clear idea of where to put the blade.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on October 01, 2017, 08:59:44 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrjOiMvc_ro

This guy has a little bit different way of doing it.

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Chuck White on October 01, 2017, 10:23:34 AM
Really nice video Paul!   thumbs-up
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: pineywoods on October 01, 2017, 02:41:43 PM
DANG, that 70 is FAST  ;D Notice the masterful use of that 2 plane clamp, much more than just a clamp..I also notice a trick I frequently use, standing flitches up beside the cant, edge and saw a board at the same time...I'm saving up some big white oak logs to try my hand at quarter sawing...
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 01, 2017, 09:30:15 PM
The guy knows how to run a mill, thats for sure, and the technique he uses is the conventional process that I have moved away from.  Watching him work, I noticed several things that I used to do, but don't do any more using the Reverse Roll.  Not saying he's doing anything wrong, just saying its not how I do it anymore, and I think I can point out the differences and (hopefully) advantages of the RRQS.

First is that after gun barreling he takes a cut directly through the center of the log to split it.  The disadvantage of doing it this way is that after taking his measurements, he takes a single, blind cut through the widest and arguably most valuable piece of the log.  He may hit perfect ray fleck, he may not.  Either way, he can't make an adjustment, and that surface will be turned down to the bed, as a basic index face, for some of other major cuts on the widest and most valuable sections of the quarters.  So the blind center cut has a significant effect on the following boards down the line.  In contrast, I prefer to measure to the center, as he does, but then raise the band enough to take a couple boards higher and cut down through the log center.  That way I get 3 or 4 center cut quartersawn boards, and if the first cut is a miss, then I can make adjustments to maximize fleck before I get to the center boards.

The sawyer in the video then takes the half logs and again centers them up and again takes a measured but blind cut through the widest and most valuable section.  If the ray fleck isn't there, or isn't optimum, then he has to live with it on the successive boards.  Using the RRQS method, the log half is not quartered, and the first cuts are made from the narrowest and least valuable section at the top edge of the log half.  By the time I get to the widest and most valuable section, I have everything dialed in and there is no doubt that I will get optimum and predictable fleck in the widest boards.  No guessing and no blind cuts. 

Also, the sawyer cut perfectly good log halves into quarters which results in just taking more effort and more time per log.  One log is multiplied into 4 quarters that must be individually milled, instead of just 2 halves.  Multiply that by logs, and it makes a difference by the end of the day.  If I start the session with say 4 good logs worth quartersawing, then cutting them into quarters will result in me now having to individually handle and mill 16 quarter sections instead of just 8 halves.   

I'd only used my LT 40 for this technique, but when CustomSaywer at the Sycamore Project used his LT70 with the chain turner and his 2.5 million bdft per year experience, he was done in a flash.  He got in a rhythm because as each board was coming off, all he had to do was glance at it to tell if he needed to tweak the rotation or take another cut.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 02, 2017, 07:21:57 AM
The results of the RRQS technique are amazing.  I am pretty slow, but steady. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on October 29, 2017, 08:43:26 AM
I wish I had come across this a few days ago.  :o

Been sawing some BIG old-growth white oaks and got into some INCREDIBLE figure.
Took my time with them, looking for the rays, but use technique similar to the above LT70 operator.

Have about 25 more really big/great logs to saw (white and red) and will focus on this technique. Yellow's statement about how rift/off-quarter boards, not having exemplary rays is spot-on. Might as well be flat-sawn.

When I'm into material like this white oak (see below), that is BIG and very curly, close-enough isn't good enough. Got some awesome material, but need ALL of it to be awesome!

Thanks for the write-up and efforts Yellow!! My wife has proclaimed that she will no longer help me push huge quarters on/off the mill!  :D think_not

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7597.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509280503)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7587.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509280500)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on October 29, 2017, 09:10:06 AM
I'm planning to have two QS white oak doors built very soon.  Problem is I want some really wicked QS grain so they really stand out.  I haven't ordered them yet because I don't want to let the door company just pick out of their stock and have it not be the wicked grain I want.  I have some white oak logs in the yard, but I'm quite apprehensive to try it on my LT15.  Cutting when the pieces are large and heavy is ok, but when the log half starts getting smaller I'm worried about clamping it/it coming loose and moving. Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 29, 2017, 09:27:02 AM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on October 29, 2017, 08:43:26 AM
Thanks for the write-up and efforts Yellow!! My wife has proclaimed that she will no longer help me push huge quarters on/off the mill!  :D think_not

That is some nice wood.  Good thing is with this technique as you stated, there is only minimal "hands on" handling of the log halves.  After the first pith cut, assuming the log had a flat bottom due to gunbarreling to reorient it back to the mill deck, release the two plane, slide it all the way under the log to the inboard side, and raise the clamp up while moving it to the loader arms.  It will cause the log to roll and the top log half to nicely slide off the bottom directly onto the loader arms to get it out of the way.  Reclamp the bottom half of the log on the mill and continue taking the pith boards.  No more quarter handling required, no more hernias or pinched fingers.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 29, 2017, 07:57:40 PM
It works. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on October 29, 2017, 08:48:12 PM
Hey Brad how you like these doors they're at a place where my friend works




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34510/FEEC0301-F509-43FD-8627-1D46CD95294B.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1509324430)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on October 29, 2017, 10:43:42 PM
Yes 4x4American, that grain is pretty wicked.  I'm planning to do a light colored door, that is lighted with antique textured blue chicken wire glass in one(bathroom door) and one with clear antique industrial chicken wire glass.  Both will have vintage handles and mortise lock sets.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 29, 2017, 11:39:34 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on October 29, 2017, 09:10:06 AM
Cutting when the pieces are large and heavy is ok, but when the log half starts getting smaller I'm worried about clamping it/it coming loose and moving. Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?
I haven't done it on a manual mill, but there are a few tricks to make things more stable when sawing as the cant gets smaller.  First, when as the sections gets smaller, you can set the high side against the backstops and the low side against the clamp. That way the band is pulling it into the backstops and will generally prevent it from rocking.

Also, when I get to the small sections, and get a good QS fleck on a face, I will stop sawng that face while it is still pretty wide and showing fleck and put it on the mill deck.  That accomplishes two things, it makes the cant more stable because a wide face is on the deck, and it also brackets the fleck for the remainder of the cant.  With a good fleck face on the deck, I know that the quicker I hit fleck in the initial cuts, I am guaranteed good fleck all through the cant.

I have had the cant shift while sawing and even at the Sycamore Project, Customsawer had one shift as it got lighter.  Most times you can see it is about to happen because you'll see the piece start to rotate up with the cut, and you can simply slow down and gravity will take over and the piece will rotate back down as the force of the band lessens.  No harm done.  I've never ruined a band when a piece shifts, it just makes a not so flat board.

I've been quartersawing some nice Sycamore last week, about a dozen or so 2' to 3' diameter logs.  Here's the remaining whack of logs after I was about halfway done, some showing some real nice figure on the butts and making some real nice boards.  Sycamore is an all or nothing proposition, and if a board has good fleck, it is worth good money, however if it has no fleck, it's firewood.  Nobody will buy it.  So it's extremely important to hit fleck and stay in it.  There was one log that just wasn't cooperating and showing as much fleck as I wanted, so I started doing some skim cuts, grain chasing and found if I raised the rear toeboard about a half inch, the fleck became superb.  The point is that with this technique, I could fiddle with both the rotation and axis to optimize the fleck with the smaller, narrower boards, and once I found it, game over for the rest of the half log.   
Also, as I mentioned earlier in the topic, and shown in the picture below,  I don't Anchorseal logs I'm going to quartrsaw, as it obscures the end grain and can't see to rotate.  So I mill the logs up unsealed, and seal the entire pack of board end when I'm done and they are sitting on a pallet.   
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0630.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509333832)
   

 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 30, 2017, 08:04:40 AM
It is really important to have the cant touching the bed rails all the way down the length of the cant.  As I was learning this technique, if I was not careful, when I bumped the cant up a bit to re-orient the rings to get the fleck, the opposite end of the cant may not be touching the bed rails, and as the blade and sawhead move along the cant cutting the board, the cant would be unstable and shift in the cut.  I cut a few wedges and odd shaped pieces until I figured out what was happening.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on October 30, 2017, 12:01:16 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on October 29, 2017, 09:10:06 AM
Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?

See reply #79. I plan on doing it again on a larger oak.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on October 30, 2017, 07:41:58 PM
Not sealing the logs is key. I try to seal mine immediately upon arrival, but it makes qsawing REALLY difficult, since seeing the growth rings requires Xray glasses.  8)

Yellow's method of chainsawing the whole pack and then sealing seems grand. Gonna try it!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 30, 2017, 11:32:21 PM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on October 30, 2017, 07:41:58 PM
Yellow's method of chainsawing the whole pack and then sealing seems grand. Gonna try it!
It will work fine, but here's a couple tips.  Depending on how much you have to cut off, put a bunk or two under the soon to be trimmed off part so they will be supported as they are cut.  No dropping or tipping of the cut ends will allow smooth sawing with no chain binding.

Put a safety board directly under the cut line so that the tip of the chainsaw doesn't accidental sink into the dirt.  If it goes in too far, it will hit the wooden board. 

The longer the bar the better, and angle the saw with the tip up and the handle at about 45° For the first few seconds of the cut, which will prevent the top boards from sliding when the chain starts cutting.  After a bit, rotate the saw to horizontal and then cut through the bottom.  Remember the safety board to keep the saw out of the dirt.



Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 31, 2017, 12:23:15 AM
I was doing a little more RRQS today and thought I'd try to point out a few things that might make it easier to follow.

I have this decent sized 23 inch gunbarreled log ready to go, and one thing to remember about the rotations is that when I get the the middle of the half log, I should be close to perpendicular to the midline pith cut because I know that there will be a couple good boards to get there.  This helps me consider the cuts so I know I have to be on target when I get there.

So I marked a the log with the radial pattern for ease of showing what I mean, and also marked in heavier Sharpie the midline boards I want to be in position to take when I get to that point.  I don't normally mark the board this many times, but did it to illustrate the log half position and angles.  The solid line is the exact midline, the dashed lines above and below are where I want to be when I get there.  After taking the first wedge cut, I'm in the fleck but it's a little light and short.  That's fine because, I know the next cut will be better as I get more alignment. 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0672.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421674)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0666.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421677)


Sure enough, the next cut and I'm really in it, below.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0656.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421687)

No need the change anything, so I take another cut.  Still in it.  This is good and bad as I'm starting to get to the point where in need to be rotated to hit the midline boards.  Oh well, never leave a hot fishing hole.  I have a badly set tooth on the band.  Embarrassing.  At least it helps indicate my feed rate.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0674.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421702)

I couldn't leave heavy fleck, so took another board, getting right at the midline.  The fleck is starting to fade out, so I need to do a rotation and get back in it. 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0667.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421719)

So now I'm rotated up, and have taken off a wedge and another narrow but fleck board and am now set right on the midline target lines, as I wanted to be.  I didn't get full width on the previous or this board due to me sawing so deep before rotating, but it doesn't matter too much and I know I'll be in the fleck with these.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0646.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421727)

It's fine and heavy fleck and so I take another, directly lined up with the centerline Sharpie mark I drew on the half log originally.  Really nice board.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0683.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421737)

So now I'm halfway through the log half and continue the process with the rest of it until I don't have anything more to whittle on.  This was a pretty forgiving log, and I got fleck on every board, no misses on the entire log.






Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on October 31, 2017, 05:17:04 AM
Another excellent write-up! I have yet to find a nice sycamore log to saw. I'm scoping around to find one, as it's great stuff when qsawn. Thanks for your time to show us "the way"!  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 31, 2017, 08:03:00 AM
I have been pondering this too.  From my perspective in sycamore, if a board does not have fleck it is low value, so cutting all the wedges that are waste is not an issue.

However, I am not so sure with nice white oak.  Using the octagon method without the reverse rolling described in this technique only produces a few starting wedge cuts.  Therefore there is greater yield since you will be sawing more boards and the extra boards will be predominately rift sawn.  Rift sawn white oak is desirable and valuable, unlike with sycamore.  The trade off is that you do not get as many boards with PERFECT figure like you do with the reverse roll.  Maybe we need to do an experiment to compare the results using the octagon method to the reverse roll method.  You would need two logs that were the same size and shape.  This is the data that would be needed.

1).  BF of rift sawn lumber
2).  BF of qsawn lumber with low to moderate figure
3).  BF of qsawn lumber with medium figure
4).  BF of qsawn lumber with very good figure
5).  BF of qsawn lumber with perfect figure

By assigning values to the BF in each of the groups, you could determine the difference between the two techniques in terms of total value of lumber sawn.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 69bronco on October 31, 2017, 08:06:53 AM
Thanks for taking the time to share that!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 31, 2017, 09:07:07 AM
That's a good idea, and are right, non fleck rift sawn in oak is sellable at flat sawn prices for me, no fleck sycamore is firewood.  Maybe we have a topic for next years Sycamore Project, take a single log, split it in half and do a comparison of the sawing techniques.

I've been trying to come up with a use of the wedge cuts, and was thinking that I could make them a little thicker and turn them into leg stock, even with the sycamore.  If they would stay straight, it would be a marketable product for the waste wedges sawn into square stock. 

During my sawing yesterday, I decided to do one log using the conventional octagon method demonstrated in the video a few posts back.  About halfway through, after a couple misses in the center quarter boards with little or no fleck showing (in sycamore, unsellable boards and blown profit), and it was soooo slow, I was reminded why I hated quarter sawing.  I was ready to pull my hair out.  I was also reminded how much I disliked the guessing game about whether I was going to get fleck, especially since I got some misses.  In truth, I'm not the best octagon sawing guy, that's why I started getting away from it.     
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: delvis on October 31, 2017, 09:47:15 AM
We quarter saw pine for a guy twice a year, who makes his living making shaker boxes, and I'm anxious to try this method here once I get a chance to practice on some of my own stuff.  Very nice.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on October 31, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Delvis,
Does your pine have ray and fleck?  I'm not very familiar with pine since we only saw hardwood.  But if it doesn't, I don't see a benefit.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: delvis on October 31, 2017, 10:20:46 AM
Quote from: boardmaker on October 31, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Delvis,
Does your pine have ray and fleck?  I'm not very familiar with pine since we only saw hardwood.  But if it doesn't, I don't see a benefit.

The Shakers used quarter sawn pine traditionally because it was stronger and the grain runs straight down the board unlike flat sawn pine.  The gentleman we saw for makes his boxes in the traditional style so he uses qs pine instead of Baltic birch plywood such as is used today.  So, we quarter saw the pine at 7/16" and we flat saw maple or ash around the heart wood at 3/16".
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on October 31, 2017, 05:40:31 PM

Danny, based upon more logs than I can remember milling here is your typical answer:

Octagon method of traditional quartersawing:

1).  BF of rift sawn lumber:  20% true rift (30 - 60 degree growth ring orientation)
2).  BF of qsawn lumber with low to moderate figure: 30%
3).  BF of qsawn lumber with medium figure: 20%
4).  BF of qsawn lumber with very good figure: 20%
5).  BF of qsawn lumber with perfect figure: 10%

It will depend upon the log and how straight the medullary cells run from the pith to the bark, but the above averages are pretty close.  Determining ray fleck is subjective though, so YMMV.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on October 31, 2017, 06:47:02 PM
Yellowhammer, very inspiring - Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and technique! 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on October 31, 2017, 07:34:01 PM
Quote from: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
AKA Rentz Experimental Milling Project Laboratory. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 31, 2017, 10:20:41 PM
Quote from: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
Yep, Danny and I can bring the  popcorn_smiley and  smiley_beertoast

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on October 31, 2017, 11:19:39 PM
Quote from: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D

Quote from: WDH on October 31, 2017, 08:03:00 AM
..... The trade off is that you do not get as many boards with PERFECT figure like you do with the reverse roll.....

With WDH and YH leading the R&D team - it might become "The Perfect Ten Project".

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: dboyt on November 01, 2017, 09:39:44 AM
Thanks for posting!  I've got some 4' diameter sycamore just begging for the reverse roll technique.  This is one of the best (for me) threads on the forum!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 01, 2017, 10:06:17 AM
Dboyt, thanks.  This technique works great for big log halves especially if taking sub wedges as I describe below.

This log was a bigger one, and was a full width between the blade guides.  It was milled as a half log, and I started by taking the big wide high fleck boards as usual.  However, when it comes time to do a rotation, especially on a big log, the wedge cuts can get pretty big and there is a risk of wasting a lot of wood, especially if in good fleck.  This is shown in the picture below, by the big black line.  This is too much wood to take off.  So I take small sub wedges to minimize waste, and get as many boards out of the wedges as I can.  I like to target a 4" minimum width on one side.  The thing to remember is that a quarter sawn high fleck board can be taken anytime the grain configuration is correct, and as the half log changes shape, the orientation can get confusing.  So marking with a Sharpie, then still keeping track of the rays will allow proper alignment even when it seems out of shape.  This is especially important when sawing a log that isn't perfectly round or has an oblong grain pattern.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0686.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509538940)

Heres what it looks like when sawing in the picture below.  I marked a 4" line to help with the photo, and made the cut.  This was a forgiving log, and since the cut was reasonably perpendicular to the growth rings, even though the cut wouldn't go exactly through the axis of the log, I still got good fleck on the face of the cut.  I was able to get a 4" and 7" board from the wedge that could have been wasted.  Thats one of the nice things about this technique, no blind sawing, and its easy to stay in the fleck.  The crosshatched areas are the areas I will trim off later after the boards are dried and I run them thorough our Straight Line Rip saw to basically joint both edges prior to sale.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0696.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509504309)


As the cant gets smaller, it will start to look like a pie slice.  I just keep rotating around, and get as much as I can out of it.  There is a tendency to finish too early and set one side on the bed.  If I did that on this piece, I would have too much angle on the rays and probably wouldn't get a high fleck board.  So I rotate it to optimize the fleck, and the hydraulics are strong enough to hold it stable when I get it where I want it.  If you'll look closely, you can see the cant isn't even touching the mill bed, its about an inch above all the bed rails.  In this case, even though cant was suspended between the backstops and clamp, I used the bed rails as a guide to make sure the piece is aligned with the deck.  Otherwise, a taper cut will happen from end to end, and that will throw successive boards off.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0701.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509504332)

This is getting near the end, and in this case I like to catch and pinch the tip of the pie slice with the clamp face as it lets me adjust the angle very easily and securely simply by moving the clamp up or down.  Once I get to this size, there is generally quarter sawn fleck on both faces of the pie slice.  So there is no way miss fleck, its a sure thing, now its just a matter of getting as much figure as I can.  As it gets smaller, clamping becomes a little more sporty, but no problems, just keep taking boards until everything is gone.     (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0698.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509504337)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 01, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 01, 2017, 03:51:14 PM
Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on November 01, 2017, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on November 01, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on November 01, 2017, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: WDH on November 01, 2017, 03:51:14 PM
Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.

Danny, what I've found is that if you don't differentiate prices, your local customers will sort through the stack and pick out the very best boards and frequently choose the very widest boards.  Then when all you have left is low fleck narrow boards the customers that legitimately wanted high fleck will be disappointed and you'll get a bad rep.  Or you will lose a sale because you were out of high fleck product.  Plus you're leaving $ on the table.

A small percentage of your customer base (say 5%) will want your very best lumber, and they are willing to pay a premium for it.  So let's call these boards "Danny's select QSWO".  You should be able to charge a 15% premium over your regular high fleck for these "hand selected, highest fleck" boards.  Think about log-matched product too.  We have not yet started charging a premium for log matched lumber but it's a big selling point for us.  At some point in the future we will probably start keeping inventory of log matched lumber.

Pricing high fleck 10% - 20% above medium fleck discourages people from grabbing your high fleck boards when they don't really need them (think skirts for tables, seat slats, back sides of cabinets, etc). 

Once the lumber comes out of the kiln, we separate it into high fleck, low/medium fleck, and rift in our inventory room.  It's also separated based upon width (I store the boards vertically which makes it easier to review figure) but some is also stored in bulk.

Pricing wide boards at a premium (we charge more per bd ft in 2" increments for lumber wider than 8") prevents someone from purchasing a 12" wide QS board only to rip it into 2" strips.  I charge twice as much per board foot for a 12" QSWO High fleck board as I do for a 6" board with similar figure.  And why not - it's a rare product and the folks that truly want wide QS will not hesitate to pay for it (think cabinet case sides, table leafs, and single panels for frame and panel doors).  And some guy with a 6" jointer won't be tempted to rip a 12" wide board into narrow strips just because he is trying to end up with a little less waste.  A 12" qs board requires a log at least 30" or so in diameter (after you cut out the sap and pith wood).  These logs are rare, are harder on your equipment and more time consuming to mill.  So you should demand a premium for the product that they produce.

My 2 cents.

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 01, 2017, 11:31:34 PM
Quote from: scsmith42 on November 01, 2017, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on November 01, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.

Centering pith is something I haven't talked about much but it is a necessary step in any quartersawing process, and the more accurate the alignment, the better the figure.  As done in a conventional QS technique, the first two opening 90° face cuts are made using a tape to measure off the bed to the center of the pith.  This is really an indirect measurement, I.e. measure from the bottom of the log to the pith so that the cut on the top of the log is correct.  Sometimes this is not always accurate.  Generally it's OK, but pith does funny things.  So I'll cut the first 90° faces as accurately as possible measuring from the deck and and then as soon as I cut each, I will double check by taking a direct measurement from the actual cut to the pith on both ends.  If I'm off any appreciable amount I will make a slight adjustment with the toeboards and skim it right before I rotate.  Once I have two dead on faces, then I don't have to use the tape measure anymore, and will use these faces as references for the opposite ones, as well as an gun barrelling or octagon cutting.  It's very important to keep these octagon faces and edges very straight and aligned with the pith and reference faces.  Since the log halfs are rotated and will be supported on the octagon faces and edges, the boards will take on any misalignment and fleck will suffer.

So when I make my first reference cuts, and double check them for accuracy, I will generally mark the most accurate pith to edge face with the Sharpie and that is the one I will place against the bed to make the first cuts to split the log.  Here's a picture of a log I milled today, and you can see the horizontal Sharpie face line I used to indicate the most accurately sawn face so it doesn't get lost in the gun barreling process and I know to rotate it to the bed for the first cuts.  Also, notice how off center the pith is on this log.   

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0671~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509592253)

Once I have rotated that marked face to the bed, I will split the log, taking a couple boards above and below, and these should have good fleck on at least on face.  If not, there is a problem.  Generally, these look good and it's time to turn and burn. 

All this take lots of words to describe but in reality it goes pretty fast and is the same steps that that are taken even if using the octagon method.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 02, 2017, 06:36:10 AM
Scott,

I am charging a width premium on all lumber, not just QSWO.  I am going to start sorting by fleck as you suggest. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 02, 2017, 06:59:05 AM
Well, so much for my posting the pix of the sawing of white oak, as I suggested...it's rather ominous that my iPhone6 begun to seriously fail as soon as the 8 and X iPhones were announced.  >:( :snowball:

I have some other REALLY big oaks to saw, so want to get this nailed. I will use my regular camera and take some pix of the process again.  :-\

One oak I just got in was about 39" on the small end, so want to be sure to do it justice! There was a little metal in the upper that you can see on the end. Hopefully, the stain doesn't go too far. :(  Ends are anchor-sealed now to minimize degrade, but I'll slice that off when getting to the saw, so I can see the rings, grain orientation, etc.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/53083480799__F5DAA55A-C822-4BAE-B3E9-7EB3545BF349.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509619760)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/53083498358__C88EB650-ADBE-49CF-BCDE-21202414476F.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509619770)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 02, 2017, 09:33:03 AM
Looking at the bottom picture of your butt log, that one may be tricky.  The growth rings at the sapwood/heartwood interface are very erratic and change directions a lot, and also I can see the rays are moving a lot.  The more round and predictable the growth rings the more predictable the rays and so the fleck.  Also, it have a very indistinct and confused pith, with one major pith split and another smaller one I'd guess an inch or two to the right.  Oddly, sometimes these types of logs provide great fleck because they have rays are all over the place.

When taking the center pith boards it will be very important to read them on this log (all logs really) as its not unusual to get distinctively different fleck from one side of the board to another, indicating that the log will be unforgiving and that being off just a little on the following rotations will compromise fleck.  This also lets me read the boards and tells you how to get the best fleck.  If all faces have great fleck, then it means the log can be forgiving and I can be a lot more off angle and still gets good fleck.  Less rotations, less wedge cuts, less waste.  I also look to see if the fleck runs down the length of the board, or if it appear and disappears, or if is evenly distributed across the width of the board or more prevalent on the edges of the board.  Generally, once I read these pith boards, it's time to turn and burn.

Since I'm going for high fleck boards, and certainly fleck on one face of every board, its important get a feel for the log, and know when I'm about to get into fleck and more importantly, when I'm about to get out of it.  Its a very visual process, but since it is, feedback is instant and thats what I like about it.

One thing I would suggest is putting a lower value log or two on the mill and getting a feel for the technique, allowing a little more experimentation without the operator stress.  Also, after every board, anticipate how to get better fleck on the next, and make adjustments if required.  If its a low value log, then skim cuts and adjustments to chase fleck are less painful.  I remember the first couple logs I started with, I cut them up pretty aggressively, chasing fleck like a hound chasing a rabbit, until I got the hang of it.  The goal is to get fleck on at least one face of every board, zero misses.  However, if there is a miss, its important to get a feel what adjustments to make. 

However, it all starts with getting good fleck on the pith boards.

Once it clicks, then you'll be amazed how easy it is.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 02, 2017, 09:45:56 AM
Thanks much for your investment in explaining this! It looked so easy on your postings that even a caveman could do it!  :D

Yet, I was chasing it HARD when sawing a big white oak the other day and didn't reward me much at all, other than the joy of pushing the top cut off which slide RIGHT INTO the loader arms! SWEET!  8)

I'm gonna go now and snap a few pix of the resultant boards and post so you can see.

Yesterday I was shuffling my log pile around and put aside some nicer red oak 8' shorts, larger enough to quarter and will play with them. I also have some big poplars that I want to quarter...not for fleck, but people sure like them for secondary woods, like drawer bottoms.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on November 13, 2017, 03:13:28 PM
YH, thanks for posting this.   I gave this a try yesterday.  I'm not so new to milling, as I've been using a swing blade for a couple years, but I am fairly new to milling with a band mill - I picked up a used Cook AC36 a couple months ago.  I've only cut a half dozen logs so far. 

I got a 14-15" post oak loaded up and was successful in getting it skinned, and then I cut it in half - great figure, obviously.  But then I stalled in my endeavor and ended up getting sidetracked on other interruptions. 

I see an advantage you Woodmizer guys would have in this technique, versus me, who has a Cooks.   A Cooks has the loader on the right, as the Woodmizer does, but the log stops (Cooks calls them squaring arms) are on the right and the log clamps (y'all have been calling them two plane clamps) are on my left.  So, when I load a log onto the bed, the log clamps actually do the stopping of the rolling movement of the log, and then the clamps (or log turner) can be used to push the log back to the right against the squaring arms.  The blade of the Cooks also runs the same direction as the Woodmizer, so on the Cooks, the hydraulic log clamps are always getting the brunt of the force from the blade going through the log. 

So, that's the big difference - clamping is backwards.    So, I'm situated on the right side of the log, and the moving clamps are on the left side (AKA "the dark side of the log", if you will).  While I worked the controls and attempted to learn how to roll the log, I could not see the clamps.  I don't have a visual for the location (or height) of the clamps because the log is blocking my view, and I was continually having to move around or lean over the bed to see what was happening.   A bit of a time consumer.   And, of course, I'm still getting the feel for all the controls.   And... (yet another excuse...) my log clamps don't seem to be getting full power from the hydraulic system, so that's a bug I am working on with Cooks service right now.   Right now, since my clamps don't have full power, I have to use the chain log turner to move the log against the squaring arms and I'm still working it like a bull in a china shop.  I believe I will need full power to the clamps in order to roll the log/cant, since it will be the clamps that the log will have to roll on.  I think I might even have to make some new caps for my clamps, as they are designed to bite into the log, and not be slippy slidy so the log can slide on them.   Or, can the round side (outer edge) of the log be against my squaring arms?  I guess they could, since most of the weight will always be under the blade. 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to gaining experience with this technique.  Thanks for the time you (and others) have spent documenting the process. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on November 13, 2017, 08:18:17 PM
I RRQS all day today.  There were times when I had the cant up onto the Side Supports, and times that I had the cant up onto the Log Clamp.  When the cant wanted to be contrary, I just showed it who was boss and sawed that sucker anyway.  There really are no rules as long as you follow the growth rings and rays.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 13, 2017, 09:22:40 PM
MM,
That is the key!  8)

I consider it freestyle sawing!  Thats why I like it so much.  Its a "do what it takes, find the figure, run it down and don't let it get away" kind of thing. 

I would have like to watch you work the logs.  I hope it turned out well.     

Tburch,
Thanks for giving it a go, maybe using a Cooks it should be called FRQS (Forward Roll Quartersawing).  Main thing, as MM says, manipulate the cant any way you can to get the rays lined up.  Full power to the hydros would be useful, though.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on November 20, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
I was able to complete the oak I started on.  Very happy with the results.  Lots of big wide flecks.  Several narrower boards, but for a 19" log, it was a good one to start with and practice on.   I got a few boards with great figure that defied the rules of nature.  I was off a bit when cutting along the rays, for example, the top of the board face lined up with the ray, but the bottom didn't, so much, but I still got great figure on the bottom of the boards, and the rays were only running about 1/2 the width of the board before they exited the face of the board.   Go figure.   Perhaps the grain twisted just inside the end of the board and lined the ray with the face up better - I didn't take the time to inspect at the time- the saw was still running. 

Time will get me faster rolling the log.  I sawed with the roll to the right and left, depending on what needed cutting next, or which roll prohibited me from cutting a certain direction.   The Cooks saws doesn't allow much overhang past the log stops on the right side (the side of the fixed guide).    I didn't take any pictures.   There wasn't THAT much waste, and what waste there was nice and clean and even pretty good looking, if you are looking for quarter sawn wedges.  ;)   I haven't edged the wedges from the sides of the boards yet either.  I'll do that after it dries. 

The next same-size oak log in the queue is much larger diameter, but has too many big limb knots to mess with cutting for figure.  I might be able to cut 1/3 to 1/2 of it for figure. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 20, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
I'm glad you had success.  There is a learning curve, but sounds like you have gotten the hang of it.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 21, 2017, 07:15:38 AM
Quote from: tburch on November 20, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
I was off a bit when cutting along the rays, for example, the top of the board face lined up with the ray, but the bottom didn't, so much, but I still got great figure on the bottom of the boards, and the rays were only running about 1/2 the width of the board before they exited the face of the board.   Go figure.   

That is why it is important to have the pith the same distance from the bed on both ends of the log.  If a log is very crooked, this can be very difficult or impossible to do because the pith wanders with the shape of the log.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on November 21, 2017, 08:33:52 AM
I QS'ed one last week where the pith was on one side of the log and on the complete opposite side on the other end.  No matter.  I measured from the bed leveling the pith and the sawing was successful.  Yup, there was sapwood waste, but the QS yield was acceptable.

You must pay attention to what the log gives you and make adjustments accordingly.  Remember with all sawing, the log is the boss.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 22, 2017, 06:08:21 AM
Put a 24" red oak up the other day and did RRQS on it. Centered the heart...was off about 1". Every single boards coming off was (new term: RWR="riddled with rays". )

Seemed like with 10-15° of vertical grain was necessary, allowing 2-3 cuts before rolling it.

A prior mistake I was making is not keeping the rollers up that I leveled with, thus causing the rays to drop-off at one end.

I'm very thankful for my edger for this process. Without it, the labor would increase a lot (or the end result wouldn't be so pretty) unless straight-lining it like Yellow does.

More big oaks on deck, read to go over the coming days. 4' diameter sycamores on the way. (Thanksgiving is a fine time to round-up family for some saw time!)  :D

smiley_turkey_dancing
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 22, 2017, 08:05:25 AM
I'm glad you had success. 
Leveling the pith and and staying level is an important foundation for the process.  Straight logs can be leveled pretty quick, funky ones take a couple round trips from one end of the log to the other with a tape measure to get it right.

I like to be at least within 1/4" to 1/8" to the apparent center of the pith. That's also why I like to make my first opening cut by measuring up from the bed as with conventional techniques, but then double checking the distance by measuring down from the just completed cut to the pith.  If I'm off a little, it's easy to tweak the toe board and make a quick skim cut.  Generally, I only have to measure and check the first two 90° faces so it goes fairly quick.  It's also important to make sure the gunbarreling cuts are pith level also, but that's easy because if the 90° faces are correct, then the gunbarrelled corner cut will look very straight and not be tapered.  If there is a taper, then it should be corrected.  Typically I will make these cuts by eye.

Also, it's important to not take off too much sapwood when gunbarreling, as sometimes that is the best QS figure. 

Edging is a pain.  However, since I don't do it when the boards come off the mill because seems like although QS will dry flat, it will generally curve, I found I was edging twice, once off the mill then again when we dress the kiln dried boards.  So now I just skip the edging off the mill unless it's an easy board, and just handle it after drying with the SLR. 


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 23, 2017, 07:06:01 AM
The "C" curves with quartersawing is just part of the the price for fantastic wood.  Getting all the juvenile wood out will greatly reduce this curve, but it will not totally eliminate it.  I find that some boards have to be cut in half lengthwise, but that does not hurt sales as these shorter boards are fine for most furniture projects.  I have always edged green off the mill, but one my next WO log, I just might wait until dry, then edge.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: ellmoe on November 23, 2017, 07:27:34 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 22, 2017, 08:05:25 AM
Edging is a pain.  However, since I don't do it when the boards come off the mill because seems like although QS will dry flat, it will generally curve, I found I was edging twice, once off the mill then again when we dress the kiln dried boards.  So now I just skip the edging off the mill unless it's an easy board, and just handle it after drying with the SLR. 

    We quit edging to final size all green hardwood as they come off the mill. I found out that much of my kd hardwood was being re-edged down a size because of drying stresses. Now we edge of the "ugly" to reduce wasted space in the stack and directly stack all other boards. We edge after drying and see increased yields and easier planing/moulding.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: randy_atx on November 23, 2017, 08:46:41 AM
Quote from: Larry on February 06, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
Rings mean nothing.  I always mark the rays (red marks) for the best flake.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF8878.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1461896183)

After a while it becomes clear as too which log will be the easiest to quarter saw.  It is also helpful to look at both ends of the log. 

The thickness of the rays are also an excellent predictor of flake quality.  The thicker the ray the better.


How do you locate the rays with this technique? Serious question.  Thanks
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on November 23, 2017, 10:57:57 AM
If you look closely at the end of a WO log you will see a lot of  tiny cracks. Saw parallel to these cracks.  That is if you want to use the end as a guide. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: xlogger on November 24, 2017, 05:01:21 AM
I found the video that Poston put on youtube about Jake quartersawing, is there a next part to it? Only see to the point where you level up the log. I've got a nice white oak and sycamore that would be a good one to try this. Not sure since it looks like I'd be spending a good bit of time edging, since I don't have an edger.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: samandothers on November 24, 2017, 07:20:36 AM
Randy

Look at post 69 in this thread shows a good picture of the ray running perpendicular to the growth rings.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 24, 2017, 07:49:26 AM
Got some pretty good results the other day on a lower-value, smaller-sized red oak. Centered it up within 1/4 inch or so, cut through the pith, pushed the top half off and it slid into the arms in one action (just the savings on my back makes this technique SWEET!).

Almost every single board came off looking great. Could get 2-3 cuts before rolling again. Here's some of the RRQS porn, after coming off the edger onto sticks.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7678.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511527466)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7677.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511527522)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7681.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511527523)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 24, 2017, 07:54:03 AM
Beautiful stuff.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 24, 2017, 09:22:13 AM
Those are some real nice looking boards.  You've got this now. 8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on November 24, 2017, 11:27:36 AM
PA_Walnut, you keep that up and you're going to have to change your name to PA_Oak.  :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: D6c on November 24, 2017, 01:39:53 PM
Funny, the other day I sawed a red oak...cut about 1/2 of the log as 1/4 sawed but there wasn't any fleck at all.  Wasn't using the RRQS method but they were good qtr. sawed cuts.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on November 24, 2017, 08:04:06 PM
Nice lumber, PA_Walnut
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 24, 2017, 08:36:13 PM
Thanks. Not sure it was me or a forgiving log, but gonna do more tomorrow and will report back. Thanks for the encouragement!  8)

Love the results. Thanks Yellow!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: samandothers on November 24, 2017, 08:38:46 PM
Very nice!  I believe you have grabbed the pebble!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on November 29, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on December 01, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: Crusarius on November 29, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.

I would post some pix but we just finished cleaning up the slab pile!  You won't have much more waste than with traditional quartersawing - probably 50% more.  Usually I estimate a 30% loss of yield when QS'ing.

But here is the thing about the waste - the definition of a quartersawn board is based upon the angle of the growth rings to the face of the board - not the amount of ray fleck.  However most purchasers of QS lumber desire the high amount of ray fleck.  Using the traditional methods of quartersawing usually yields 30% high fleck material, 30% low fleck QS, and 30% rift.  There is a limited market for low fleck QS.  By using Robert's reverse roll method you can yield a much greater percentage of high fleck QS, which you can sell for a higher price as compared with low fleck or rift.  So even though you may have a bit more waste, you can still net out a greater profit because you can charge more for the high fleck boards.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 01, 2017, 11:44:48 AM
True'dat!

Quartersawn is often desired for it's dimensional stability advantage (by instrument makers, etc) but the desirability of the visual generally exceeds the practicality.
As mentioned here, I'd rather have 1 board with lots of fleck, than 2 with mediocre visual appeal. Rift sawn materials usually aren't desired, however, I really like using it for rails and stiles in order to focus more attention on the panels!  8)


Quote from: scsmith42 on December 01, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: Crusarius on November 29, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.

I would post some pix but we just finished cleaning up the slab pile!  You won't have much more waste than with traditional quartersawing - probably 50% more.  Usually I estimate a 30% loss of yield when QS'ing.

But here is the thing about the waste - the definition of a quartersawn board is based upon the angle of the growth rings to the face of the board - not the amount of ray fleck.  However most purchasers of QS lumber desire the high amount of ray fleck.  Using the traditional methods of quartersawing usually yields 30% high fleck material, 30% low fleck QS, and 30% rift.  There is a limited market for low fleck QS.  By using Robert's reverse roll method you can yield a much greater percentage of high fleck QS, which you can sell for a higher price as compared with low fleck or rift.  So even though you may have a bit more waste, you can still net out a greater profit because you can charge more for the high fleck boards.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 01, 2017, 12:07:09 PM
The waste generally look like little wedges or thin triangles.  I haven't figured out a use for them yet.  Too small for leg stock.

The waste can be reduced by applying a little windage and sawing high.  For example, when making a correction wedge, at first I was rotating until the exposed face of the wedge had excellent fleck, so I knew that the next board down would have two good faces of fleck.  However, it occurred to me I was wasting potential wood, so now I will make my correction wedge were I will just start to see fleck by starting a little high.  Since the lower face of the board will get better as I get in line with the rays, I "know" the other face of that board will be nice.  Since with QS wood, only one side of the board has to have good visual fleck, I can apply a little windage to get an extra board every now and them.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 01, 2017, 12:16:03 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

Thanx
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 01, 2017, 12:27:56 PM
Glue all the  triangles back to  together and you will another log to cut...
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Resonator on December 01, 2017, 12:36:09 PM
Find someone that heats their house with wood and you can get paid for the "waste". :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: John S on December 01, 2017, 05:22:18 PM
YH, by "gunbarreling" do you mean trimming the log into a hexagon or octagon type shape before the RRQS?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 01, 2017, 08:56:52 PM
I heat my house with wood :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 01, 2017, 11:30:06 PM
Quote from: John S on December 01, 2017, 05:22:18 PM
YH, by "gunbarreling" do you mean trimming the log into a hexagon or octagon type shape before the RRQS?
Yes, it should look like the old Henry style gun barrels.  Octagon shaped by skimming the four faces of the log level to the pith, then faceting the corners also level to the pith.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0033~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512188951)

Unfortunately this is a tedious process but common to all quarter sawing techniques. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 01, 2017, 11:36:03 PM
Quote from: Crusarius on December 01, 2017, 12:16:03 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

Thanx
Problem is even the waste looks good.  Sweet little triangle sticks with ray fleck on one face.  Eveytime I look at the waste pile I think I should be able to use it for something.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on December 02, 2017, 07:45:48 AM
 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/0104131409.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1357499408)

Robert, if you stumbled across someone who makes small boxes you may establish a market for the thin pieces which could be cut out of the wedge shaped pieces with good ray fleck. 

The boxes pictured are devoid of figure and are from a machinist's tool box project I started and abandoned several years ago.  (Australian Pine).  I still have a wedge of spalted sycamore from the Sycamore Project standing up by a pallet rack in my shop waiting on me to find a little time and ambition.

You may even pile some of the nicer ones in a "free with every purchase pile" and have a free pile brag board to display photos of some of the projects that they were used to construct.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: John S on December 02, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
YH, thanks!  Great post!!!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 02, 2017, 05:59:42 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 01, 2017, 11:36:03 PM
Quote from: Crusarius on December 01, 2017, 12:16:03 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

Thanx
Problem is even the waste looks good.  Sweet little triangle sticks with ray fleck on one face.  Eveytime I look at the waste pile I think I should be able to use it for something.   

Acoustic dampers? Could make some really neat acoustic panels. Probably be a market for them in home theaters or even commercial buildings.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 02, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
I like cavemans idea. But I would make those shadow boxes not drawers.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: woodyone.john on December 02, 2017, 06:45:49 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

So could a possible product like picture frame stock be run out of these odd triangle sections and edgings ?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 02, 2017, 10:59:28 PM
I don't know, they could be used for a number of things that could be made of thinner stock if the wedges were run through a resaw.

We have had one customer get the wedges and since they are 8 feet long, cut them into three pieces and make short triangle shaped table legs. 

Could always turn them into tomato stakes or pen blanks. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 03, 2017, 05:49:19 AM
We have been taking our sizable chunks and making "artisan" charcoal and smoker chunks.
My wife chops them with a miter saw and puts them in nice little bags. People like a little TLC where it comes to their food making.

Kinda started when I cut down some hickory and sawed the butt logs, but didn't want to use the smaller uppers for lumber. So, I 8/4'd them on the mill, hacked them in to squares with my chop saw, for use in my own smoker. Smaller pieces are good since hickory can become overwhelming when smoking most meats other than bacon.

Not sure if it's actually profitable if counting my labor, but it's fun and uses the bigger scraps for something worth.  8)
Title: RRQS joy fades quickly to black.
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 03, 2017, 06:52:01 AM
On a more solemn note. Not all big oak logs are worthy.  :(

I got this BIG 40" white oak from a local dude I know that didn't want to wrestle it on his small LT15 mill. We noticed stain on the end, but figured it was on the cut-off since metal detector didn't find it. You can actually see them through the AnchorSeal in this pic.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7904-1.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512301059)

Wrestled the thing for 2 hours to rip it in half with chainsaw. Finally got it. (really turned pink when air hit it).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7913.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512300683)

Started the RRQS and realized the 1/2 was too big to clear the top of the carriage and/or the sides, so made some full width slab cuts. But the horror began...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7911.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512298126)

Made some cuts without actually hitting metal, but the significant stains were everywhere. (disregard the pine sitting on the arms from an 8x8 I cut right before this).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7910.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512298134)

The pain continued through almost the entire half log. Since I didn't hit any actual metal that I could determine, must've been something small and/or really soft that just deteriorated, yet wreaked havoc on this thing.  :-\

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7909.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512301254)

So, most of a day spent getting REALLY wide, full of rays quarter sawn white oak that has not-so-nice black stripes in it. I tried to edge off most of the black and will make SOMETHING of it, but not a fun day. It was getting dark, so I'll take some pix of the edged stock today. Some was 12-14" wide after edging.

The good news is that the other half doesn't show the stain and I sent the dude whom I got it from, some pix and he's a really stand-up kinda guy and immediately offered to replace it. (which is REALLY decent since I figure the risk is always assumed by the dude who saws it).  ;D

Stay tuned for more RRQS updates from the hood.   ::)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Jemclimber on December 04, 2017, 09:11:37 AM
You just need a catchy name to sell it, like charred oak, similar to denim pine, and then up the price.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: catalina on December 04, 2017, 10:52:02 AM
PAWalnut, if the stained part has good fleck-save it for yourself, make something out of it and use steel wool dissolved in white vinegar as a stain. you can get a fairly close surface match to iron stain. Gene 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on December 04, 2017, 12:28:18 PM
Quote from: catalina on December 04, 2017, 10:52:02 AM
PAWalnut, if the stained part has good fleck-save it for yourself, make something out of it and use steel wool dissolved in white vinegar as a stain. you can get a fairly close surface match to iron stain. Gene

x2
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 05, 2017, 05:56:06 AM
Yes, it has really good fleck and clear...great material except that dang metal. Interestingly, didn't effect the blade, etc. but really tainted the wood. Not sure what it is/was in that thing, but you can even see little spots here and there. See pix for the pain. :(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8465.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469325)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8470.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469379)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8471.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469405)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8473.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469419)

The other half of the log doesn't exhibit the same metal clues that the first one did. Hopefully, it will be better. Will post results.

Moral of the story is: don't let log-lust lure you into deceit. I saw the metal in the end and hoped for the best.   [taking a silent moment to bow my head.]  smiley_mellow

I'm gonna follow it through the process to drying, etc. Never know if someone may think it's got "character" and is cool. If not, I'm building a cabin and may use it for "conversational flooring".  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 05, 2017, 08:48:36 AM
It definitely looks different.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 05, 2017, 09:01:44 AM
I have had customers rave over nail/metal stained lumber, and especially the actual metal.  They used it where the metal/stain would be their badge of honor or trophy. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Resonator on December 05, 2017, 09:08:01 AM
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. (Old saying).
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ljohnsaw on December 05, 2017, 09:39:46 AM
Does the stain continue up out the top end of the log?  If so, the metal was up higher.  If not, have you tried your metal detector (not your blade, ;) ) yet to see if you can find it now?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on December 05, 2017, 05:49:07 PM
Quote from: Magicman on December 05, 2017, 09:01:44 AM
I have had customers rave over nail/metal stained lumber, and especially the actual metal.  They used it where the metal/stain would be their badge of honor or trophy.

I have a bucket full of Trophies.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 05, 2017, 06:10:15 PM
Whatever it is, is invisible to my detector...now and before. Maybe I need a new one. However, I always confirm it's working by putting it to my pocket of keys or something and it starts squawking.  :-\

Maybe I need to market it as "Metal Meets Wood: The Showdown" or call it "Peace Era Hardwoods" (no mention of which one) and maybe a bearded dude with a flannel shirt,uncomfortably tight jeans, a MacBook Pro, a Carmel Mocha Orange Zest free-trade coffee and a pocket full of organic cashews with want it.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: alan gage on December 06, 2017, 09:30:51 AM
I was cutting down some oak trees a few weeks ago and one had heavy iron stain in the butt. It was about 140 years old and the stain looked to be within the first 40 years of its life. The tree was long dead and pretty cracked up so I decided to use it as firewood rather than save it for the sawmill. Started bucking it up and splitting the rounds to see what had caused the stain. All I was able to find was a sliver of a nail that was left. Almost rusted completely away.

Alan
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 06, 2017, 02:34:27 PM
I opened one up last week that from the size it obviously had been a small nail, but was now only black powder.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: xlogger on December 08, 2017, 04:36:22 AM
I've just started ¼ sawing some lately. Looked over this post several times and agree its slow the way in the video on here did it. But that's the way I did one yesterday and got some nice boards. Question is that I don't have an edger and rrqs might be faster on sawing but how much time again do you have to put in it on edging? Not sure it was worth it. I was planning on getting an edger last year but decided on getting a slabber saw. Still looking for an used one in my area but no luck so far.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 08, 2017, 05:28:25 AM
For me, it would be rough w/o an edger or straight-line rip. As a matter of fact, an edger has made ALL of my sawing easier and faster since I really dislike edging on the mill. I can edge a whole day's worth of sawing in less than an hour with someone offloading to stacking.

However, a qsawn board full of flecks is worth a LOT more in my market, so it's worth is to take the extra time and/or labor to make it. I've considering making a "set" or "bundle" of material that is same-tree with the qsawn material featured, but some lesser, perhaps rift sawn lesser boards part of it for rails/stiles, etc. Same-tree sets have a lot of appeal in my market, especially exceptional material.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 07:39:22 AM
Well, in the way of an update, the 2nd half of my metal-infested white oak seems to be producing better stuff. However, I think this log is cursed: Had to cut off the flare with my saw and it fell on my toe (yes, I need steel toes NOW), 1/2 fell off the mill when trying to turn it, broke a blade, until finally I shut'er down for the day...had a bourbon and decided to regroup at a later time.

The wide RRQSawn is looking good, allowing 2-3 boards before needing to roll, take a wedge and cut again.
Some of it is getting really pink when the air hits it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8567.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995499)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8570.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995484)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8571.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995479)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 11, 2017, 07:52:20 AM
All my white oak pinks up, too.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 11, 2017, 08:00:11 AM
Hope your foot is OK.  The wood looks great.  If your are turning big halves toward the backstops, move the head about midway down the carriage, so it blocks the cant from rolling off.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 11, 2017, 08:01:39 AM
Quote from: WDH on December 11, 2017, 07:52:20 AM
All my white oak pinks up, too.
Its interesting it turns pink, so does my sycamore, which will sometimes turn very red.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on December 11, 2017, 08:01:50 AM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 07:39:22 AM
Well, in the way of an update, the 2nd half of my metal-infested white oak seems to be producing better stuff. However, I think this log is cursed: Had to cut off the flare with my saw and it fell on my toe (yes, I need steel toes NOW), 1/2 fell off the mill when trying to turn it, broke a blade, until finally I shut'er down for the day...had a bourbon and decided to regroup at a later time.

The wide RRQSawn is looking good, allowing 2-3 boards before needing to roll, take a wedge and cut again.
Some of it is getting really pink when the air hits it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8567.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995499)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8570.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995484)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8571.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995479)

Try a pair of boots with composite toe protection, they are much warmer.  Based on several threads on this forum I bought a pair of Haix and after a bit of wear in they are doing really well right now.  Others make composite as well.  Just one more instance of this forum really helping out, I have cold feet and am a bit clumsy so I was looking for the best boots possible.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 08:03:28 AM
Never thought of that. Great idea. I seems to be having issues of the back edge (toward the uprights) sticking out too far at times and getting the carriage hung-up. This causes a HUGE pita as I have to back out of the cut. Am I doing it wrong?  :-\
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 08:05:34 AM
Thanks for the tip. Seems to be on ongoing curse. Over the summer, dropped a HUGE flitch on my toe...will spare the details. Then, just was it was healing...did similar.
Last week, was unhitching my plow off the UTV and dropped the blade edge on the other toe. :(
Steel toes are gonna be my new friend!  :D :D
Quote from: nativewolf on December 11, 2017, 08:01:50 AM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 07:39:22 AM
Well, in the way of an update, the 2nd half of my metal-infested white oak seems to be producing better stuff. However, I think this log is cursed: Had to cut off the flare with my saw and it fell on my toe (yes, I need steel toes NOW), 1/2 fell off the mill when trying to turn it, broke a blade, until finally I shut'er down for the day...had a bourbon and decided to regroup at a later time.

The wide RRQSawn is looking good, allowing 2-3 boards before needing to roll, take a wedge and cut again.
Some of it is getting really pink when the air hits it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8567.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995499)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8570.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995484)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8571.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995479)

Try a pair of boots with composite toe protection, they are much warmer.  Based on several threads on this forum I bought a pair of Haix and after a bit of wear in they are doing really well right now.  Others make composite as well.  Just one more instance of this forum really helping out, I have cold feet and am a bit clumsy so I was looking for the best boots possible.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 11, 2017, 08:15:22 AM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 08:03:28 AM
Never thought of that. Great idea. I seems to be having issues of the back edge (toward the uprights) sticking out too far at times and getting the carriage hung-up. This causes a HUGE pita as I have to back out of the cut. Am I doing it wrong?  :-\
You can also forward roll the half log, with the high back edge set up toward the idler wheel, and lower edge against the backstops.  You can get a little more clearance that way.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 27, 2018, 08:48:44 PM
This is my 2nd try at RRQS and since I have a non-hydraulic mill I have taken a slightly different approach. The frequent reverse turning as developed by YH proved too labor intensive on a manual mill so here's what I came up with:
As usual I octagonalize the log and cut 2 to 3 full width boards from the middle leaving 2 almost half logs. Remove 1 half log and saw the other one in large wedges - usually 3 of them. (The log I am working on now is 7.5 ft long and 28 dia so the wedges are fairly easy to relocate to the end of the mill where they are out of the way.) I then have 1 wedge to manipulate which is faster (and safer) than the half log. I am extremely pleased with the ray fleck I got even though the pics don't reveal it very well. If I get good fleck on 1 side I am happy and I usually get dramatic rift pattern on the other. So it is win - win to me. I am a happy camper.
Bob

Below shows the boom loader/turner in reverse roll mode and a come-along which I use to pull the log back to the squaring arms


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020574.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517096306)

Below shows blocks fastened with c-clamps on the operator side to keep the log from sliding.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020576.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517098768)

Below shows adjustable stops on the back side to hold the log in place so the cableing can be removed.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020577.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517098945)

Below - making the first wedge cut. (Ignore the upright sq arms. pic taken out of sequence)


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020575.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517096306)

Below, making the 2nd wedge cut. Looks pretty precarious like a one arm hand stand but it stays stable even for much smaller pieces (fingers crossed)


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020580.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517099269)

Last 2 pics are some results. Much better in life than in the pics.
 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020581.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517099468)

 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020582.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517099526)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on January 27, 2018, 09:12:42 PM
Looks mighty fine from here and I see nothing wrong with your approach.  If it works, it works.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 27, 2018, 09:14:48 PM
Beautiful results.  The proof is in the pudding (old saying). 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 27, 2018, 10:28:25 PM
Good work. Those boards look great.  Full wide - full board, fleck.  That's hitting the target.  Something about boards like that make me smile.   :)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on January 27, 2018, 10:58:13 PM
Quote from: WDH on January 27, 2018, 09:14:48 PM
Beautiful results.  The proof is in the pudding (old saying).

And that's DanG good pudding. Beautiful results!  Thanks for posting.  And I'm smiling too.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on January 29, 2018, 10:51:24 AM
Kellog - good post and nice supporting pictures.   Good idea to make 6 big wedges for easier handling.  I like your improvised clamping aids too.   

Question - when you are cutting the almost-half log into 3 wedges, are you also taking (at least) 4 boards at the same time?   For example, in the picture where you are cutting the last wedge off and your blade is lined up with the ray/split, if you raised your blade one board thickness, you could cut a sizable wedge off, then be positioned to lower the band without having to move the log, and take the second cut perfectly on your ray line, and if you lowered the saw another board thickness, you could cut a 2nd board too.  Both would have great figure on at least one side and overall, you would be handing the wedges less, and the wedges would be smaller too.   Maybe you are doing this, but I didn't catch it if you are.   

Todd
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 29, 2018, 01:03:23 PM
Todd,

That is a good option but I didn't do it that way because I didn't think of it, but I will try that because it is particularly advantageous for heavier boards due to less weight handling as you point out. What I did was cut the almost-halves into wedges and put the freshly cut wedge face down and cut off the bottom and keep doing so until the fleck diminishes. When there is no more fleck on either face I cut the wedge in half exposing more fleck (the boards are getting pretty narrow now) and keep cutting. I will try your suggestion next. Thanks.

The beuaty of cutting the almost-halves into bulky wedges is that it opens up RRQS to manual mill owners (like me) who don't have hydraulics to deftly rotate/counter rotate/clamp and reduces the weight to be lifted.
Bob


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: SawyerTed on January 29, 2018, 06:46:20 PM
I don't even have a sawmill yet but am eager to RRQS some of the oak I have ready to mill.

Now for the rookie/dumb question regarding the medullary rays.  They are obviously 3 dimensional rays sort of like spokes of a bicycle wheel but run the length of the log more or less.

What does planing do to the ray flecks?  Can they be planed away?  Or once the board is cut with the faces  perpendicular to the rings and the rays exposed  planing will continue to expose rays as long as planing is parallel to the exposed face of the board?

Please humor the newbie.....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 29, 2018, 08:02:31 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 29, 2018, 10:45:25 PM
Sawyer Ted,
You are about 2 hours from me. When I have another oak to QS you can come observe if you like.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 29, 2018, 11:19:05 PM
KeLOGg, you show the little L brackets clamped the the square tubing which is very close to how the two plane clamp is positioned for rolling.  So if those two L brackets could slide forward, the log back would rotate against the upright backstops and give you the rolling effect.  If you could get the clamps to move inboard in small jogs, and hold them steady, you could QS the slices in succession, much like using hydraulics. Here is an illustration of what I mean.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1170.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517286230)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 30, 2018, 07:06:13 AM
How would I get them to move in unison and lock w/o hydraulics? As it is it doesn't take much effort to just to re-clamp. Everything about a manual mill has built-in slowness so I doubt I will change it but if you have a suggestion I am all ears.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 08:05:53 AM
You only would need one clamp, positioned in the middle.  Years ago I build a cheap winch powered shuttle clamp for my LT15 that work very well.  A small winch 1500 lb HF acted as a windlass and slid a clamp shuttle backward and forward on a bar.  Later I added a mechanism to raise and lower the clamp.  If you build this, you will never have to use manual clamps again.   

http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,53476.0.html

There are other pics and descriptions in the thread of how I turned my manaul into a near hydraulic. 


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: SawyerTed on January 30, 2018, 08:06:36 AM
Quote from: kelLOGg on January 29, 2018, 10:45:25 PM
Sawyer Ted,
You are about 2 hours from me. When I have another oak to QS you can come observe if you like.
Bob

Bob, I'd like to do this.

Ted
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on January 30, 2018, 11:40:05 AM
Like Bob, I too have a Cooks, but his is manual and mine is hydraulic.   And even then, my backstops are on the opposite side of his!  Totally wonkers. 

The Woodmizer has a definite advantage using this log rolling method.   The backstops have roller bearings on top and they travel vertically.  So, not only will the log have less friction when rolling it, with their vertical-only travel, the log is unlikely to shift end-to-end when they are moved. 

The Cooks (manual and hydraulic) have backstops that are square tubes, with angled tops, and they move in a radial fashion against the side of the log (envision a windshield wiper). If the log is touching the backstops when the backstops are raised or lowered, the log WILL shift.  Therefore, there's not that wide a gap between the log handling required between a manual Cooks and hydraulic Cooks when rolling a log to execute this technique.  Lots of manual handling still needed (at least for me).  BUT, still worth it to get max figure.   

Bob, I will borrow your ideas for your aids!   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on January 30, 2018, 08:58:39 PM
Yellowhammer, I see in that link that you have the winch/cable actuating your claw turner.  Only at the end of the post do I see your "shuttle clamps" on a pallet with a sketch showing an idea, but I don't see a pic of the actual execution?  Do you have a pic of that?  The way you have it sketched, It' s the Winch Drum I have a hard time imagining.  Is there a cable that turns the winch drum that runs back to the operator position?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on January 30, 2018, 09:09:03 PM
On another note... On my LT15 as most of you know, the throat opening is 24"-24.5".  I've got nice straight white oak logs that are 30" on the small end.  Gun barreling will take them down some, but the question is how to get those 4 center boards out and get my two almost half logs?  I mean, I guess I'll just have to gun barrel them and see if I can get the first log half off.  If so, then I can get that off the mill, flip what's left and take the other almost log half, then split the remaining thick flitch in half down the pith.  Then mill the remaining pith off each, then I'll have two thick boards to resaw that should be me two sets of book match quarter sawn.

The problem comes in if the log is still too wide to get the first almost log half cut off.  Then maybe I'd have to make my gun barrel smaller, thus losing good wood/board width?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 30, 2018, 10:11:47 PM
You would just have to take more flatsawn boards off the outside faces while gun-barrelling to get the cant to the size that will fit through the blade guides. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 11:01:25 PM
Yes, you have to start playing games with it.  If you take equal amounts of flatsawn boards off each side of a centered pith, then you will have narrowed the QS boards on each side. 

However, since pith is rarely centered, and there is usually one face worse than the other, I like to intentionally "off center" saw the pith, where the lower value side gets turned into flatsawn wood, and the high value side remains untouched so it will still make wide QS boards.  This is possible to execute because the pith doesn't have to be centered, it only has to be aligned so you are sawing aligned with its axis.  Once you've taken off enough low value wood for the cant to fit through the guides, split it and sawn as normal.

This is the same technique used when QSing an off center pith log, which is a gift when quarter sawing.

I have also sawn very large logs into thirds, and QS each third, instead of halves.  Sometimes it easy to get lost doing that. 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on January 30, 2018, 11:13:50 PM
Yellowhammers are fastidious.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on January 30, 2018, 08:58:39 PM
Yellowhammer, I see in that link that you have the winch/cable actuating your claw turner.  Only at the end of the post do I see your "shuttle clamps" on a pallet with a sketch showing an idea, but I don't see a pic of the actual execution?  Do you have a pic of that?  The way you have it sketched, It' s the Winch Drum I have a hard time imagining.  Is there a cable that turns the winch drum that runs back to the operator position?

I have some pics in my gallery.  Here is a better picture.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/3758/2_Plane_Clamp_LT-15.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1318396343)

The whole device consists of a square crossbar member with two steel end plates welded so that it will fit and bolt to the inside rails of the mill.  Completely self contained.  On one endplate, under the crossbar, a pulley is welded (left bottom side of crossbar in picture).  On the other endplate, under the crossbar, a small winch is attached (right underside of crossbar in picture and the empty winch drum is barely visible).  The winch cable is removed from the winch, shortened, and threaded through the winch drum by drilling a hole in the arbor.  Then one end of the cable goes from the winch around the pulley and attaches to one side of the shuttle.  The other end of the cable from the winch arbor attaches to the other side of the shuttle and the loop of cable is tensioned.  Since the cable passes through the winch drum, when the winch is operated in one direction it will pull the shuttle one direction.  When the winch is reversed it will pull the shuttle in the other direction.  Everything is mounted to the one crossbar so it can be easily removed with some bolts that attaches the endplates to the mill frame. 
I got the idea for this by watching the shuttle on a chain drive garage door opener.  Motor turns one way, shuttle moves that way, motor turns the other, shuttle reverses.  As a matter of fact, instead of using a cable I wanted to use garage door opener chain, with a split gear welded on the winch drum, I just never got around to it because the cable worlked just fine. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 11:40:23 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on January 30, 2018, 11:13:50 PM
Yellowhammers are fastidious.  ;D
DanG right.  I guess we are two peas in a pod.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 31, 2018, 07:02:24 AM
I didn't think that Yellowhammers and Goats were compatible.  Another thing, Goats ain't fastidious.  (Note to Self:  Fastidious is a pretty big word for a goat to be using on his own.  Maybe he is a Coached Goat). 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on January 31, 2018, 07:01:37 PM
You do know that there is this thing called Google now right?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on January 31, 2018, 08:01:17 PM
Google for goats.
;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 31, 2018, 08:52:00 PM
I looked it up.
GOAT is short for "Greatest Of All Time".  It must be true, I saw it on the Internet.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on January 31, 2018, 09:00:03 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on January 31, 2018, 08:52:00 PM
I looked it up.
GOAT is short for "Greatest Of All Time".  It must be true, I saw it on the Internet.

You are now on my Christmas list.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on February 07, 2018, 05:51:18 AM
YH,
Thanks for that link on the LT15 conversion. I just got around to reading it. You essentially built your own hydraulic mill. I don't use my mill much as you so I doubt I will go to the extent you did. Thanks again.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 07, 2018, 08:20:00 AM
I reverse rolled quartersawed a white oak log yesterday.  Still getting the hang of it.  One question for YH and others more proficient with this technique.  Sometimes my boards are wider at one end than the other.  Do you use the toeboards to level the log after each major turn?  Because of taper in the log, the gun barrelling does not leave each of the faces the same width all the way from the large end to the small end.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2243.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1518009557)
 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on February 07, 2018, 10:37:21 AM
I loaded a 24" post oak on the mill last week and talked myself out of QS it.  lots of edging work,  The sap wood milled great,. In the heart had diving blade (brand new 4 degree) until I got a narrow cant.  Excessive sawdust left in the kerf.  Is it the nature of post oak or lack of hardwood milling experience?  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 07, 2018, 10:24:29 PM
I use the toebards a lot, and some taper is very common, however, I do try to find a least one good side with a relatively straight, non tapered face if possible to be the first or best reference face for turning.  Many times I won't use the toeboard to adjust the log, I will just use the clamp to squeeze and go up with it, pinning it against the backstops, lifting at will.  One smaller, very straight logs, I will forgo half of the gunbarreling, and only work the four major faces and leave the other 4 facets with bark on.  Saves a half of work gun barreling, and I have the edge everything anyway, so a little bark on the board isn't a problem.   

4° bands will leave a lot of packed sawdust in white oak.  Typically, I will turn my lube down some with them to keep it dusty, not like wet flour. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on February 08, 2018, 07:05:37 AM
What yellow said...

Yes, taper is a common challenge and you'll also have tapered edges, so an edger or more time on the mill is part of the game. (an acceptable trade-off to me in order to have rays on each board). On that note, I don't know what I'd ever do without my edger these days...it's ABSOLUTELY a joy to use, in comparison...for me. I have a Baker with a diesel on it, which is probably going later in the year as I'm likely converting to all electric--the mill, edger, etc. since I don't go portable.

Yellow is also spot-on with 4°: they leave PILES on dust behind. I actually go the other direction though and load-up with lube to help the cut not seem like it was chewed through, rather than sawn. I was sawing some HUGE logs the other day that were frozen. Switched from carbide to 4° due to hitting metal and the cut-quality was VASTLY different. (GRRRR  :-[) The carbide is my choice for almost everything now, except metal. Hitting metal with those pains me, but when dealing with big, high-value material, it's worth it.

Part of our post-process is to very diligently sweep as much dust off the stickered lumber (both sides) as possible. I often use a big leaf blower and post-dust the piles too, after it's dried a bit. In warmer weather and/or troublesome materials, it can make the difference between staining and not. It's a laborious, yet necessary part of our process. And yes, those 4° blades make it twice as hard.  :-\

TIP: I added a time-clock to my ops for my kids. They now clock-in and get paid weekly for actual WORK at the mill. My 11 year old daughter has become a rock star and end-sealer and sweeping boards!  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 07, 2018, 12:59:58 AM
Today I ran into a relatively common situation, trying to RRQS logs where even the halves are too big for the mill to manipulate well.  For my LT40, this means logs with a large diameter of about 45 inches or better.  Since I had my camera ready, I took some photos. Basically, the strategy is to Reverse the Reverse Roll, i.e. do the normal QS techniques in somewhat reverse order.  Don't gun barrel, simply RRQS with the bark until the cant gets manageable, then trim the bark.

So here we are, with a decent mid forty inch diameter tapered white oak log.  So first break out the 52" chainsaw and split it down the center line.  Using my best @customsawyer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1861) chainsaw technique, I split it in half and only missed the center on the far end by an inch or so.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1777.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344183)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1791.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344194)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1798.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344209)
 

So now the problem is that the halves are so big, my two plane clamp struggles with them, as wall as my claw.  In addition, I'm out of vertical travel on the mill head and won't clear the log.  I can't begin to manipulate the halves for classic gun barreling. So anyway I can, get the half set up so that the corner is diagonal out toward the idler wheel, which gives me maximum clearance.  Notice the log half is much higher than the head travel, but no problem.  I get the half situated, then measure the distance from the pith to the bed, and raise the toeboards to get the pith level.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1806.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344212)
 

Then I take a cut at pretty much max head height take off a decent sized hunk which I will RRQS later.  This now gives me a little clearance to better manipulate the half.  Notice the bark is still on the half, it doesn't matter as long as the pith is level.  

Then I rotate the half just a smudge and line up on a ray and take classic RRQS cuts.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1820.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344310)




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1812.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344248)
 
Bullseye, and I keep dropping and taking boards without moving anything.  This lets me trim the cant down to size, but every trim board has good fleck.  Of course it will have bark in one edge, but the point is high fleck QS wood is coming off from the first cuts.  I keep dropping until I get to the pith, and roll the much smaller cant to the other side and repeat the process.  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1808.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344289)
 
This photo clearly shows how I've rotated the piece and am taking cuts right along the radial cracks, scoring wide QS boards every pass.  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1819.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344313)
 

Once the cant gets manageable I skin the bark off, wedge trim the pith off and continue to saw it like normal RRQS.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1823.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344326)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: fishpharmer on June 07, 2018, 01:59:39 AM
Tiger oak!  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on June 07, 2018, 03:49:15 AM
Sweet!! This is a nice primer for me since I have a white oak about the exact same size that I need to tackle today or tomorrow.
I did note that you started out with a "BS" log! (see blue paint on end!)  ;D :D :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on June 07, 2018, 05:42:54 AM
I think BS stands for big sucker. :D
Good job on the chainsawing. I only hit it perfect when Danny is watching. He adds lots of pressure. Being off by a inch or two isn't the end of the world as you would normally trim out the pith anyway.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on June 07, 2018, 05:58:41 AM
Big logs make wide wood. What is the average size lumber you have?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on June 07, 2018, 03:03:57 PM
@YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) I like where you left the bark on initially.  Makes handling a big log much less of a chore.   Also, some time ago, I realized that every board I cut didn't have to have parallel edges throughout it's length.   I've done several fine furniture projects with wedge shaped boards.  

How wide is that board your left hand is on?  

In your first picture, I see, at the back left in your photo, under the shed, what looks to be big pallets or a board stack with tall stickers.  What is that?  My first thought was that they are pallets, queued up, for the next batch of sawn boards you cut to sticker on.  (which would be a great idea)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: teakwood on June 07, 2018, 05:24:37 PM
One of the most interesting threads on the FF, i have learned so much from it. Thanks for sharing 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 07, 2018, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: customsawyer on June 07, 2018, 05:42:54 AM
I only hit it perfect when Danny is watching.
I must be good luck.  I can be hired to watch ;D.  Better yet, I will trade out some watching for some of your walnut logs cut_tree.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 07, 2018, 10:48:25 PM
The bigger logs have been yielding true non pith full S4S boards 12 inch to 18 inch wide.  Most customers have never seen QS boards this wide.  The thing is, these super wide QS boards stay flat and true whereas a flatsawn board this wide would have cup.  

The board in the picture is probably a 15 inch wide, maybe, hard to tell.  My hand is about 7-8 inches wide in that picture.  I've also got some real wide, 20 inch QS boards from the log I milled up the day before.  They will be a shade narrower when I edge them.  

The nice thing about this technique is it allows me to get the widest boards possible because it's not a step by step process, it's flexible enough to get the big boards when they present themselves.  The average width of my QS boards has gone up vs conventional techniques.  I don't know what the average width is, but we have a top rack full of none less than 12 inch. I try to not get narrower than 4 inches. 

One of the most important things about this technique, as demonstrated on this big log, is I never had to handle conventional quarters manually, and I never had to lay my hands on the log half from start to finish.  Once it's on the mill, it's all hydraulics, and old school hydraulics at that. 

Also, some may remember how I said I didn't like to Anchorseal logs when I knew I would QS them.  This log is a prime example.  The radial splits are a blueprint on where to cut.  Only after the boards are deadstacked, do I pack saw the boards to 8 feet long and Anchorseal.  

You are correct Tburch, those are pallets staged for use.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PM
Robert, those are beautiful quarter sawn boards. Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  

One more question.  This is for any who do a lot of quarter sawing.  What is the minimum diameter log that you typically quarter saw?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on June 08, 2018, 05:34:27 AM
Quote from: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PMQuestion, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  


I'm guessing he will say, "Yes". My process is the same--we've tried stickering right off the mill, but even with 3 people on that end, can't keep up. For me, I like the zen of stacking and stickering...gives me a chance to better scrutinize and/or mark boards.

Yellow, having 20" quarter sawn white oak, is like gold...money in the bank. (as you know). I believe anything over 12" is a rarity. Check out quartersawnoak.com. For high-fleck boards, the price is $4.50/bf for under 8", but $27.20 for 16'+!! :o Martha wants a new pair of shoes. :D

So, I wonder what kinda multiplier my curly, wide quarter sawn should demand. (it's 16" or so)  ;D


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7593.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509280503)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on June 08, 2018, 10:39:15 AM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on June 08, 2018, 05:34:27 AM
Quote from: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PMQuestion, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  




Yellow, having 20" quarter sawn white oak, is like gold...money in the bank. (as you know). I believe anything over 12" is a rarity. Check out quartersawnoak.com. For high-fleck boards, the price is $4.50/bf for under 8", but $27.20 for 16'+!! :o Martha wants a new pair of shoes. :D

So, I wonder what kinda multiplier my curly, wide quarter sawn should demand. (it's 16" or so)  ;D




And I've sold all of the 16+ inchers that we've milled for that price too!

You can't see much ray fleck due to the photo angle but here is a 20" QSWO board.  The biggest challenge with the extremely large logs is that they usually have some defects in them (spalted sapwood, bugs, etc), because few people want to remove a 50"+ oak tree unless they have to.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13296/20_inch_qswo.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528468416)




That looks like some gorgeous QSWO!

For 16" wide, curly QSWO that is kiln dried I'd think that you could net $20. bd ft or more for 5/4.  You have to be prepared to sit on it for a while though until the right customer comes along.  Best to mill a little thicker than normal too.





Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 08, 2018, 09:12:32 PM
Seems like it would sell better as 9/4?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on June 08, 2018, 09:25:31 PM
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 08, 2018, 10:39:15 AMFor 16" wide, curly QSWO that is kiln dried I'd think that you could net $20. bd ft or more for 5/4.  You have to be prepared to sit on it for a while though until the right customer comes along.  Best to mill a little thicker than normal too.


I try to saw anything over 12-14" as 5/4. However, often bend the rules for qsawn since its stable.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on June 08, 2018, 10:14:10 PM
Quote from: WDH on June 08, 2018, 09:12:32 PM
Seems like it would sell better as 9/4?
It might but the drying time is so much longer.  I have not had any problems selling it as 5/4.  Usually folks making either tables, cabinets, or using it for a single panel in a frame and panel door.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 08, 2018, 10:42:31 PM
Quote from: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PM
Robert, those are beautiful quarter sawn boards. Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  

One more question.  This is for any who do a lot of quarter sawing.  What is the minimum diameter log that you typically quarter saw?
I saw alone most times, and deadstack everything.  With the drag back, roller table and a pallet, I just whittle until the log is gone and I don't want to stop to sticker.  With QS wood, I don't want to lose my rhythm and lose the fleck.   Much like the video 123Maxbars made, at 15:00 minutes or so, I'm pulling the boards back pretty constantly as Customsawyer is doing.    
EPIC SAWMILL WEEKEND IN GEORGIA, WOOD-MIZER LT70 SAWING PINE AND SYCAMORE - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C1CwEzvdOps)

Also, I don't pre buck long logs that I QS so most every log will be longer than my pallet.  Even though I get a lot of very good logs, such as what made this stack of QS white oak, there are inevitable boards that will have knots.  

Since our standard board length is 8 feet, I don't want to just pack saw this stack and get what I get, as it randomly came off the saw, I want to quickly inspect each board so that the best 8 foot section gets put on the pallet, even if it means I have to spin some boards around.  Then when I pack saw them after sticking, I have an entire pallet of high value, dead clean, no knot, full length 8 footers and pallet of lesser quality, lower value short boards that may have a knot or other defect in them that I can clean up if I have to.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1828.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528510748)


A 2 foot diameter log is about the smallest I'd quartersaw.



Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on June 09, 2018, 07:38:55 AM
Thank you for your thorough explanation.  John and I have quite a few live oak logs to saw if we ever get enough space to stack more wood.  Some may be candidates for quarter sawing but with a manual mill, that becomes a laborious endeavor.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boonesyard on February 12, 2019, 02:47:36 PM
I just read this entire thread, watched all the videos, studied all the pics. WOW, did I learn a lot!! I've got a load of white oak coming in and a fair amount of red and white oak we'll be cutting this year. I cannot wait to try this method of QSing on some of the nicer logs. Thanks YH for your all the wonderful info, what a forum.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 13, 2019, 12:37:13 AM
Glad to help.  You might practice on some lower value logs before you start whittling on the high dollar ones.  The method works great. I was just dressing some RRQS ambrosia 8/4 sycamore this afternoon and it looked so nice I snapped a picture.  Let me know if we can help or answer questions.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/B96CEC76-1403-48BD-93C9-DD2CBA036102~0.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1550036191)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on February 13, 2019, 09:48:53 AM
YH,

That Sycamore looks awesome. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boonesyard on February 14, 2019, 08:08:26 AM
Has anyone tried this on elm?.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: curved-wood on February 14, 2019, 11:05:13 AM
Is your elm has special wood grain when cut quater saw ? The elm around here (Québec ) has a beautifull grain when flat saw. Very prone to twisting specially those big one that grow in the open field; the grain is twisted like a steel cable, I guess it help for wind resistance.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boonesyard on February 14, 2019, 11:45:21 AM
I've never QS elm, thinking about it now would be a waste of time. None of it is very clear and it is really nice looking in flat sawn slabs.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 14, 2019, 12:19:33 PM
My experience with quarter sawing elm is limited to the middle cuts when slabbing. In my way of thinking, the flat sawn slabs look much nicer and have more character. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kennymcd on April 24, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
As the most recent newbie to FF, this is my very first input. I just went through this entire thread, watched every video and went through every pic. What I learned about quarter sawn techniques is of huge value. Thanks. But, I do have a challenge that I hope you can steer me in the right direction. I have a sawmill supplier of Sipo Utile in Cameroon, Africa. These logs start at 30 inches and go to 60 inches. I need them only quarter sawn in 12/4 and 8/4 thicknesses. I have sent my guys at the mill over there hand drawn drawings, web pics and even a Frank Miller basic video of quarter sawing. Between the French / English translation and their antique methods of sawing, I am not getting through to them. Does anyone know of a "quarter sawing 101" either video of manual - or even course material somewhere that I can send them to start them off in the right direction? They do have both vertical and horizontal band saws - and lots of manual labor. They seem to be real experienced, and confident - but only in what they know. Please help if you can.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55360/Man_and_Huge_Log~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1556126690)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on April 24, 2019, 01:48:40 PM
Kenny welcome to the forum.  it is nice to have friends around the world.  I am not sure of a nice concise video, but someone here will have some info.  Thanks for posting you question.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on June 23, 2019, 08:34:44 PM
  I have read and re-read this thread a number of times meaning to try it sometime. Well I have a customer on my backlog with some big red oak and he only wants quartersawn lumber so I ran a test case today using a 12' stock RO log I had. It was really a bit small for quarter sawing at 19" SED and it has been down nearly 2 years with very punky sapwood. The pith was a little off center to boot. I made a shallow cut on all 4 sides then cut a 7-1/4" cant off the top, I cut 4- 4/4 boards out of the middle leaving a 5-1/4" cant on the bottom. My camera battery was dead so I stopped sawing, put the battery on charge and went and mowed my grass while topping up the battery. After finishing mowing the yard (about an hour) I had enough battery juice to take a few pictures and resumed sawing.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1394.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561335817)
 One cant ready to saw, 4 center cuts to be edged and another cant on the arms.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1395.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561335879)
 I'm getting some nice fleck but not real wide boards.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1397.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561335951)
 I sawed the first cant and edged the center boards then put this cant on the mill. When I looked at my sharpie lines I realized I had the cant backwards/upside down.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1398.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561336039)
 I reversed it and got my blade about parallel to my sharpie marks (may not can see them here)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1399.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561336096)
 I cut off a pie shape and found the fleck


 When finished I probably had wasted way more than I should. My yield was only 96 bf and that included saving boards down to 3" wide but they were full of fleck. I found edging was harder because I did not have any true 90 degree cuts to stand the flitches vertical. Also I see the throat depth on my LT35 can be a limiting factor on how wide a cant I can cut and resulting boards I will get.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Den-Den on June 23, 2019, 09:14:19 PM
Quote from: kennymcd on April 24, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
As the most recent newbie to FF, this is my very first input. I just went through this entire thread, watched every video and went through every pic. What I learned about quarter sawn techniques is of huge value. Thanks. But, I do have a challenge that I hope you can steer me in the right direction. I have a sawmill supplier of Sipo Utile in Cameroon, Africa. These logs start at 30 inches and go to 60 inches. I need them only quarter sawn in 12/4 and 8/4 thicknesses. I have sent my guys at the mill over there hand drawn drawings, web pics and even a Frank Miller basic video of quarter sawing. Between the French / English translation and their antique methods of sawing, I am not getting through to them. Does anyone know of a "quarter sawing 101" either video of manual - or even course material somewhere that I can send them to start them off in the right direction? They do have both vertical and horizontal band saws - and lots of manual labor. They seem to be real experienced, and confident - but only in what they know. Please help if you can.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55360/Man_and_Huge_Log~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1556126690)
 

If these guys are experienced and confident, you are likely taking the wrong approach when telling them HOW to quartersaw.  Would be better to listen to WHY they don't ($$$) and tell them WHY they should ($$$).
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on June 23, 2019, 09:36:52 PM
Kennymcd,

  Are you just buying the lumber or supplying any equipment and training? If you are just buying the lumber I'd quote a price for the quartersawn lumber then reject anything that does not make the grade. Do you have a rep there inspecting the lumber before it is loaded and shipped? I'd suggest that if you are not going over yourself.

  What kind of equipment are they using (Big commercial bandmills or something similar to ours with 26-36 inch cuts). I saw some pretty decent lumber made by free-hand sawing with chainsaws over there. I was in Doaula and our office overlooked the port. I remember huge stacks of logs staged there to ship and remember some where one log completely filled the truck bed. We visited the CAR and on our last day we went to a French run sawmill there. They used a big band mill - bands looked to be at least 12" wide. Are they sawing in Douala. Yaounde, or other locations? Good luck. I sure miss being over there.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 23, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
WV,
One of the trade off when QSawing is the number of center cut boards that are taken because that detracts from the overall thickness of the remaining cant, which dictates the width of any resulting QS boards.  It's important to take the pith out, but for a log that size, I would probably limit to 2 center cut boards, and use the extra inches for the cant thickness. This would be the same in any QS technique, as the remaining cant was only 5 1/4" thick, whether it was RR or conventionally split into quarters.  The RR technique can take them at the hypotenuse angle so may yield a couple 6" wide, but they are still not going to be real wide.

The best QS candidate for smaller logs is a very off center pith so that the one side will yield wide boards, although the other side will yield narrower.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on June 24, 2019, 07:24:19 AM
YH,

   Thanks for the advice. I will keep that in mind. Earlier you had posted it was normally not worth the effort to saw less than 24" diameter logs into quartersawn and this  experiment verifies that IMHO. I just needed to practice on my logs and that was about as big as I had to work with. It showed the procedure works fine and I now have a better understanding and more confidence about the clamping. Even on pretty small whittled down cants the clamps held.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: MAF143 on June 26, 2019, 10:11:51 PM
I have read this thread a while back and have been wanting to try it.  

A few weeks ago we had a large Pin Oak blow down over by the old horse stables and it just missed the corner of the building.  It is 4' dbh but was hollow and snapped off.  It's a very limby tree but I was able to get a couple of 5' sections of trunk about 15" diameter out of it to play with on the mill.  I was able to try the reverse roll method on it and got some interesting looking boards.  I know the Pin Oak isn't like the White Oak, but for my first experiment I didn't want to jump in with both feet.

Overall I viewed this as a successful experiment and am looking forward to trying some larger Red and White Oak later when I get a chance.  Our mill is totally manual so I don't think I want to get too ambitious.  I did get a nice slab and I think it will end up as a live edge coffee table with live edge legs if I can get it dried successfully.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/quarter_pin_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561600735)
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/quarter_pin_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561600861)
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/quarter_pin_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561600862)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 26, 2019, 10:48:21 PM
You got some very nice looking boards, some with full fleck, on difficult logs that had lots of grain change.  This is why the RRQS method is superior to conventional blind quartersawing.  There are several boards in the pictures where the grain slope changed drastically, enough to go from partial fleck, to full width fleck, back to partial fleck, all on the same board.  Very good technique.  When you can get the full fleck in the middle of the board and partial fleck on either end, it means you bulls eyed the rays.  If using the conventional techniques that board could have been a miss with only slight fleck in the center with no fleck on the ends.

If you want to get adventurous, when you have logs with such drastic slope and fleck changes, you can make slight toe board adjustments, changing the axial angle of the cant, without adjusting anything else, and take a very shallow skim cut, and actually drive the full fleck to where you want it on the board.  It's a very cool technique, and we did it in one of the logs at the Sycamore Project this year.  I had a photo, can't find it, but we changed the angle of the cant just a degree or two and went from minor fleck to brilliant fleck on a shallow "prospecting" or correction cut and used the new angle to saw out the rest of the cant.

Great work on your first try.    
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: MAF143 on June 29, 2019, 09:46:39 AM
I had some time last evening to toss the second Pin Oak log on the mill.  This one is about 5' long and still only 16" diameter.  This one was a little trickier to find the pith since both ends were crotchy, the bottom end with 1 large limb and the top kind of splitting 3 ways.  I rolled it around and finally cut it on my best guess to open it up.

I got lucky, I found some good grain and was able to stay with it for the most part.  This was very fun to be able to open up a log that was destined for firewood and get some cool looking boards out of it.  Now to get it dried and figure out what to do with it...  These are kinda small boards and I'll have to figure out how to show them off in some crafty projects.  I didn't make a large slab from this log.  I was more experimenting with thinner slices to see how to stay with the grain.

Thanks to YH and the rest of you here that share all this knowledge so the rest of us can learn some useful skills and techniques.  I'm an eager rookie... LOL

Here are some pix of the second log.  I threw these on the truck and drove over to a woodworking buddy's house to show them off.  I'm amazed that I was able to pull this off...


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin7.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815684)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin6.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815672)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin5.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815668)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815651)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815643)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815623)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815616)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 29, 2019, 11:31:11 PM
You got some full width fleck on this one.  Good job.  RRQS is actually fun, because it's not a bling sawing technique, but actually lets you stay in control.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on June 29, 2019, 11:43:50 PM
@YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488)  What do you mean by "bling"?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 29, 2019, 11:50:51 PM
Autocorrect got me.  I meant "not a blind" sawing technique.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 30, 2019, 07:11:31 AM
I like "bling" better. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Bruno of NH on June 30, 2019, 07:21:25 AM
Bling is good when it turns to ching in your pocket 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 30, 2019, 07:34:07 AM
See?  I told you that bling was better.  Bruno, now you have the capability to make lots of bling ;D. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 10:10:53 AM
so a new term for the dictionary!?  "bling sawing: when RRQS and you get a lot of fleck"
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Southside on June 30, 2019, 11:11:48 AM
I was thinking the same thing - it IS a bling technique. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 30, 2019, 01:49:58 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 10:10:53 AM
so a new term for the dictionary!?  "bling sawing: when RRQS and you get a lot of fleck"

I like it. 8) I stand re-corrected on my original auto correct.  :D  

RRQS, the "Bling" Technique.

Takes firewood and turns it into bling.

However, we need to get an Administrator to add RRQS to the dictionary also. @WDH (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) 
do you know of any? :D You know I'm always good for providing a steak dinner for trade. :D :D :D    I'm not above food bribery!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 30, 2019, 07:52:25 PM
OK, you came up with the technique so you write the definition and I will add it to the Dictionary. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 09:22:27 PM
we should prob add the phonetic description north and south.  bling, and ba ling.   :) :) :).  sadly we have no accent in Ks.  @WDH (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370)   @YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488)   @Southside (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297)    @Magicman (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011)    ;)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 30, 2019, 10:44:48 PM
In Alabamian, it's pronouned, "blang".  :D

As in: "Don't mah new truck have a lot of blang on er?  I had'ta paid extry fer it."

Accent? What Accent?  It's Everybody else what talks funny.  

Now I got to think about a definition.  Where did I put those Vitamin B pills....

Hey Alexa, what is..?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 10:57:32 PM
well, @YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) the elder, in Latin , i believe it is "blingus maximus"  or in Alablatin  "blangus maximus".  or in the deep south "ba lingus maximus"
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 30, 2019, 11:02:31 PM
Yeah, them fellers down south of me have a tendency to drawl.  Caint hardly understand them. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Southside on June 30, 2019, 11:15:15 PM
It's not just south of you. I was in West Virginia years back with my girlfriend now wife and we went to eat at Shoneys. I ordered a Mtn Dew and the girl asked me if I "wanted any ICE with that", well her drawl was so deep what I heard made me think "boy she is friendly, and in front of my girlfriend no less" the look on my face said it all. Cyrillie spoke up and said "Ice, you want Ice"? After the waitress left Cyrillie looked right at me and said she knew exactly what I was thinking... Oops.   ::)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 11:19:14 PM
@Southside (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) , I have no doubt, despite having been made an honest man, that you continue to be a pain in the ICE.!!!  that is a compliment coming from me!   :D :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) :) :) :) smiley_beertoast
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on July 01, 2019, 04:36:44 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 30, 2019, 11:02:31 PMCaint hardly understand them.
Theyre ba-lingual
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on July 01, 2019, 07:41:23 AM
Ever since the Sycamore Project, Southside has been fixated on ash :).  Maybe its a Southern Thing that he has?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: MAF143 on July 01, 2019, 08:03:25 AM
Started out about rolling, now it's all about ASH...  conversations tend to go there...  :laugh:   :-*
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on July 01, 2019, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: WDH on July 01, 2019, 07:41:23 AMEver since the Sycamore Project, Southside has been fixated on ash
Yup, now he is wanting Ash in his Mtn Dew.  :o
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on July 01, 2019, 10:37:22 AM
When I left for church yesterday morning, this was a fine upstanding thread. But somehow the whole thing went south.  :laugh:

Maybe I'm starting to understand why the Britts put the "R" in "Arsh"
Helps avoid making an arsh out of yourself.   say_what
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 03, 2020, 04:03:29 PM
I just need some clarification. Back on page 9 somewhere, Yellowhammer advised not blindly cutting through the center of the log to halve it.  He said to go up a border or two from the center so you're not making a blind cut. I don't really understand what he means by blind cut. For example on the log I am working on now which is very straight, I've made an octagon leveling the pith in all directions. The pith is completely level relative to each opposing face. I've drawn some lines which you might be able to see here in red on medullary rays.  The rays are pretty darn level going through the center of the log.  So I wouldn't think that would be a blind cut, other than I can see no fleck on the face, but you would never be able to see the face on your first cut before you cut it.  Is he trying to say that from the center I should go up A Board Thickness so that I can cut out two boards from the center straightaway Before I start dealing with the log halves? If I go up to board thicknesses I think the grain will no longer be sufficiently perpendicular to the cut.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/E0DCAE15-861E-440D-9E35-9D6FE56BEED7.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1599163273)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/2FE5ED57-309B-429D-B8F9-F0E51D0D81EF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1599163353)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on September 03, 2020, 04:21:03 PM
@YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) can explain it best.  I know in Ga, they took off about the top 1/3 of the log.  I think there is a video.  but the theory belongs to him.  I would then think saw down about 3 slabs centering the pith in the middle one.  then start rolling up the side on the backstops.  so almost like doing thirds.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Stephen1 on September 03, 2020, 06:56:27 PM
I'm with BB. I have been working through my RO log pile. I have beem collectiong them for 5-6 years. I only saw them when someone pays me. 
I have decided that I'm going to sw them for flooring in my new house. I am working on RRQS method after reading through all this.
Then of course, I start digging out these RO logs that have been hiding behind everything. I do have quite the collection of mostly Urban Salvage RO logs. At one time when I 1st starting sawing, I thought big logs were worth money...lol We ll RO only if you can find the 1 in a million. I guess I'm going to be that person. 
Most of the logs are not 8' so I do not get to use the roller toe boards. Most of the logs are not 20" like I had thought  they were. I did manage to learn the technique, I have lots of firewood now, which is okay also. I also have a bundle 280 bd ft of QS RO from 5' to 8' long. Some as wide as 7" and down to 3". I have about 500bd ft of flat sawn RO and anouther 250bd ft of RO oavals and cookies.
pictures to follow in the next post.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Stephen1 on September 03, 2020, 08:03:12 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_9333.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174539)
 




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_8372.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174586)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_3657.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174629)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_3657.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174629)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_2880.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174669)
 This is my nepheh that showed up this summer with nothing to do. He is 15! He worked for me all August and wants to comeback next summer. I think he is dreaming sawdust. ;D



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_2457.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174693)
 Some of the logs were not worth QS so we sawed some ovals, very nice end table size.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_2099.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174360)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_1695.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174291)


 I only have 2-3 QS logs left. most of my logs will have knots in them. They willGive me some nice character flooring for sure. My aim is 6" and 8" wide boards. Here I marked my through cut. It worked nicely on the smaller logs with the off centered pith. I was able to get a few boards out of the large half. I can see where the toe boards really can help to get rays to show.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13648/IMG_0706.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599174281)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 03, 2020, 08:37:42 PM
Imagine that you are splitting the pith exactly with a cut, then move the head up one full cut.  That is 2.5" if you are sawing 9/4.  That will yield a board that is 2 3/8" thick and 1/8" kerf (2 3/8 + 1/8 = 2 4/8 = 2.5").  This yields one thick board above and one below with the bottom face of the upper board and the upper face of the bottom one perfectly quartersawn with all rings perfectly perpendicular or 90° to the flat face.  By positioning the head this way, you are not sawing "blind", but you have positioned the blade just right to get that perfect 90°. 

This also removes almost all of the juvenile core in the first thick boards so the resulting quartersawn boards from the top and bottom "thirds" that are sawn out with the reverse roll do not side-bend.  And, one face of each of those two boards is perfectly quartersawn.  In oak or sycamore, go ahead and edge the juvenile core out of each of these first two cuts which gives you 4 boards that are the widest and finest 4 quartersawn boards in the log. 

If you are sawing 4/4, then start at the pith and move up two 4/4 boards for the first cut.  If you are targeting 1 1/8" thick boards, you move the blade up 2.5" also.  Then make 4 cuts.  Two above the pith and two below the pith.  So up 2.5" and the cut sequence looks like this +2.5" - 1/8 kerf - 1 1/8" board - 1/8" kerf - 1 1/8" board = 2.5".  Then make two more cuts below the pith.

After these first cuts above and below the pith on the octogoned log, you then reverse roll the top and bottom "thirds" (they are not actually thirds but are the thick pieces above the first cuts above the pith and the first cuts below the pith). 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 03, 2020, 09:06:35 PM
@WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) ,
Well you confirmed what I thought, however I'm cutting so I end up with 1-7/16" thick boards  so later they will finish at 1" after drying and planing.

Problem is, if I go up from the center(pith) two boards, the upper board will not be perpendicular to the grain.  It will be off.  Do you just accept that because you're trying to get rid of the juvenile wood?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 03, 2020, 09:15:36 PM
Yes.  You need to get the juvenile core out.  Another way to do that is to draw the juvenile core on the octogoned log with a sharpie of lumber crayon.  Draw the juvenile core circle then color it in solid.  Split the pith with the first cut so you then have two halves.  Reverse roll these two halves.  Then examine each board, and any that shows any part of the colored juvenile core, edge that board to remove the colored part.  Just a good bit more work this way. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 03, 2020, 09:43:57 PM
So how do you identify the juvenile core?  Do you just take a certain dia measurement, or is there a clear demarcation?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 03, 2020, 11:03:00 PM
As WDH says, getting out the juvenile core is quick and easy if you take a couple boards out in the first halving cuts.  These should be pretty good to excellent ray fleck, but the "sawing blind" part references exactly the question you are asking, how far up can you go and still get good fleck on those first few center cuts?  They are aligned with the pith after gun barreling, and should be gimmee boards, but not all logs are created equal and all don't have good fleck the same distance from the pith.  Since you have to start sawing on the highest of the center cut boards, you are essentially guessing whether you should try for 5 boards, 4 boards, 3 boards, or only 2 from the center.  If you guess and set up too high, you may not have good fleck on some of the widest boards in the log.  For example, you may try to get 4 center cut boards, 2 above the pith and 2 below, and make your first blind cut 2 boards up, and find out that the fleck wasn't good because it was too far from the pith. So that's a reduced quality board.  Then the second board is closer to the pith and it's dead on. The third board is one board below the pith, and looks good, but the fourth board is a little too low, and a bust.  So then the next log you think you have it figured out and only take 3 boards from the pith and find out you could have done 4.

Furthermore, since you've taken 4 boards from the middle, that means the halves are now reduced in size by 2 boards, and now all the RRQS boards will be at least 2 inches narrower.  So the first few center cut boards are a gamble that effects every board thereafter.  

I have confidence that any RRQS board will have at least as good ray fleck as a center cut board, so sometimes I only take 3 from the center, even though I could "probably" get more, but I want wide log halves instead of thirds, so I can also get lots of wide RRQS boards.  Every center cut board will reduce the width of every log half board, so a non excellent ray fleck center cut board is a double penalty.  

You can generally easily see the juvenile wood in the end grain.  However, it's more important to get good ray fleck than to cut out the very last bit of juvenile wood.  The ultimate goal is to get fleck on every single board, and it's better to have to edge out a curved board than have a miss.  For example, some months ago I RRQS a single white oak log that I paid a $800 for.  One log.  It made some of the most beautiful, zero miss wide ray fleck I have ever seen, and within 2 weeks of putting the wood on the sales rack, sold every board off it for a net of over $1,500 on one log.  On logs of that quality and expense, misses are not allowed.  





Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on September 03, 2020, 11:25:48 PM
Dr. Wengert has said the juvenile wood is about the first 15 rings.  sometimes it is a different color, or may have ring shake.  if you cut down the pith, you can sometimes see the outline of the original small tree within the log. sometime the end check is different and you see a pattern.  @GeneWengert-WoodDoc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20498) 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 04, 2020, 12:07:44 AM
Thanks you guys.  I pulled that log off the mill until I got this clear.  I'll go for it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 04, 2020, 06:38:24 AM
There is no sure fire way to determine the exact juvenile core. So as long as you remove most of it, you are doing OK.  It can vary from tree to tree within the same species due to a variety of factors such as genetics, site, etc.  One thing that you know for sure is that it is the circle of wood centered around the pith.  I figure about a 4" circle as a rough rule of thumb.  At least this will get a great deal of it.  I agree with YH that the goal is to maximize the fleck, and if a few boards have to be edged after drying due to crook, the loss of wood is minor compared to the value of the ray fleck on the board. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on September 04, 2020, 06:55:53 AM
Another thing to keep in mind. When I am RRQS a log, I'm not doing it with a log less than 25" SED. I normally keep them in the 30" SED or bigger. This is why we can get a one or two more boards out of the center of the log. If you are trying to do this on a 20" dia. log you might get less lumber out of the center but you will still want to try to remove the juvenile core. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: trimguy on September 04, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top! RRQS has been mentioned in several threads since I've been a member, I wasn't quite sure exactly what it was. I just read the whole thing, now I know thanks a bunch. I have a sycamore log to try this to , at some point.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 08, 2020, 11:02:11 PM
Whittling away on my WO log.  Milling 1-7/16" green.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RRQSa.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599618846)
 

Now at this point in the roll, it gets a little precarious on the LT15.  The backstops helped me when gunbarreling the log, but now they cannot support anything because straight up, they are too tall and I'd cut them.  Halfway down and they will not support the pie section.  Although I have it up at the correct orientation, I don't have enough support to cut it.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RRQSb.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599618846)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RRQSc.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599618847)
 
I think I need to rig something up.  I could probably get by with a 2x8 or 2x6 up against the backstops partially up, but they would need to be clamped.  But I need the clamps for the oak....  I'll have to see what I can rig up for tomorrow....  I've got an idea for a support for pie sections-

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RRQSd.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599620192)
 
The base is secured to a cross bar by set screws.  "A" translates back and forth via a threaded rod which changes the angle of the hinged plate.  This plate gives support to the pie section as it gets smaller.  The total height must be fairly low, like maybe 6-7 inches high.  There are two of these devices, one on a cross bar on each end of the log section.  The regular log clamps push against the pie log section which in turn is supported by the devices.  Anyone tried something like this?  Would it work?  Not having adjustable height backstops, nor a claw turner drive me to think of this.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 08, 2020, 11:21:14 PM
I think that should work.  

As a different strategy, I could RRQS on my LT40 even though it had rotating backstops because I could hydraulically rotate them into position and hold them stable.  

It occurs to me that I was able to do the same thing on my LT15 when I used a lever and bar to link and stabilize all the rotating backstops to a single pull handle at the head of the mill. I loved the mod as I could raise and lower all the backstops at one time, but it would also probably work just fine for this.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on September 09, 2020, 12:47:34 AM
I think that will work, but a lot of work if you do not plan to saw a lot of QS.  can you make a backstop out of wood for a one off, that you can saw through?  not sure what your long term plans are for QSing.  If you want a long term reusable accessory, go for it.   :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on September 09, 2020, 12:51:49 AM
you can also turn end for end, to get a flat against the back, but more physical work.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 09, 2020, 09:35:10 PM
Well I solved it with just lumber scraps for now.  I stabilized it by installing two 4x6 scraps against the uprights and then leaned the cant section against the 6" high corner.  Then I used an 8' 2x4 to push against the other side and it also gave a flat face for my clamps to press against.  Now the cant section was stabilized so that the cutting force pushed the section against the 4x6 corner.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ7.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701091)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ6.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701090)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ9.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701092)
 

Once I cut down to the 6", I then turned the 4x6 down so that the remaining cant section would push up against the 4" high corner.  Once I cut that, I took the remaining small section and flipped it upside down so that the nice q-sawn face was down on the bed.  I went up 2 board widths and one sticker thickness.  I took the top thin section for stickers, then did the final cut to get two Q-sawn boards to finish this half of the log.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ10.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701093)
 

As I was wetting the wood with timbor, I took a couple pics.  All boards had good fleck.  This was my 2nd RRQS.  The other was cutting Q-sawn 2x6 rafters(for stability).  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ5.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701092)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ8.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701092)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701090)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/RQ3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599701089)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 09, 2020, 10:27:14 PM
Nice sawing with full fleck across the faces.  It looks like you got the hang of it pretty quick.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on September 09, 2020, 10:28:32 PM
Doc,

   I often turn a cant end to end when cutting live edge siding and the technique I use is to raise the cant near the center of the cant with the movable hydraulic clamp. I can lift the cant an inch or two and using the clamp as a pivot I can spin even a very heavy cant end to end reversing it. This should work with RRQS if you need to reverse ends.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on September 10, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
great work.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Greyhound on September 10, 2020, 11:48:25 AM
This is a project a customer of mine did with some red oak that @PA_Walnut (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=36676) sawed for me.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36163/119059862_771274536999072_6169881771653333035_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1599752879)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on September 10, 2020, 12:18:23 PM
Wow nice, maybe PA Walnut needs a new name.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Stephen1 on September 10, 2020, 01:09:03 PM
Nice QS Brad. I see that get a few knots in your wood also. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 10, 2020, 08:24:57 PM
Quote from: Stephen1 on September 10, 2020, 01:09:03 PM
Nice QS Brad. I see that get a few knots in your wood also.
Those small knots are near the center of the tree, self pruned from the young tree.  Still way nice boards, Many don't have any knots, but I don't mind them.  Unfortunately it's not my wood I'm sawing, I traded a guy this milling for chipping all my slabs for mulch.  One thing I learned is that a commercial vermeer chipper has no problem with chipping slabs as long as they aren't too big.  For the one being used, It's best to keep the thickness to 2 inch and under.  It can chip 3 and even 4 inches thick, but it has a hard time sometimes and got jammed once with a thick piece.  It's easy to keep the slabs to that thickness by taking an extra cut.  Width is also a consideration.  I had a few too wide so I split them with my maul and they then fed in fine.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Bigly on September 10, 2020, 10:34:28 PM
I wondered as I was reading through this thread whether sharpie bleeds through anchorseal like it does through pretty much any paint I know of (other than shellac)?  If it does, you could potentially mark your rays, then apply the anchorseal and still see your marks.  Might be handy if you knew you were going to RRQS but had to put the log aside for awhile.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 10, 2020, 10:49:09 PM
I used a red paint pen on top of the Anchorseal, Not a clear solid line, but worked good enough.  That log had set for 2 months with the guy before I got it to mill.  I was too lazy to recut the end.  I could see the ray lines especially due to the minor checking.  I'll have to try marking the lines on a fresh face and then anchor sealing to see how well you can see them.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on September 22, 2020, 06:42:50 AM
Quote from: Greyhound on September 10, 2020, 11:48:25 AMThis is a project a customer of mine did with some red oak that @PA_Walnut (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=36676) sawed for me.


Woohoo! Looks great. I have some BIG white oaks needing sawed. Was deciding between live-edge slabs and RRQS them...this has inspired to qs them!;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 22, 2020, 08:08:45 AM
I much prefer to just not do anything to the log ends, and follow the natural checking of an unsealed log.  Generally, if I have to buck logs to length, I'll make the cuts a few days before sawing them to give time to get the checks, and so I can also see the grain easily.  I'll seal the ends of the boards when the sawing is done.

Anchorsealing or otherwise obscuring the log end, is like painting over a road map, try to avoid it if possible until after the sawing.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 30, 2020, 01:08:05 PM
I did a little chestnut oak today, it quarter saws pretty nice, with lots of fleck.  Its a little darker than the true white oak I normally quarter saw, but I'm sure this will sell well.  The logs weren't that big, but the waste is minimal with this technique.
   


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/611B9267-9A65-4543-9C86-F89FD74EEDEF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485567)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/7EA12D43-A6C5-4CDC-921F-1967F32DE6E4.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485583)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/5D34F1F9-A56E-4C5F-AAFF-78E56136044D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485606)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/0D0AE908-6B9A-4ACA-900F-D7794DA2AEC7.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485622)
 


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on September 30, 2020, 02:17:53 PM
the QS and darker wood really bring out the freckles on your fingers.   :o :o :o  I love to watch Roy Underhill on the Woodright shop.  all the freckles and at least one healing wound on his hands in every episode.   smiley_carpenter_hit_thumb
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Stephen1 on September 30, 2020, 06:12:33 PM
Nice looking wood . I like the shade of brown. Are they about 8"?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on September 30, 2020, 08:39:02 PM
Wicked fleck Robert!!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 30, 2020, 09:09:06 PM
Thanks, it is some pretty distinctive fleck.  It also was pretty easy to hit, I did 7 logs in this batch and only had one miss.  Most of the boards were 6 inches to 10 inches wide, from logs 20 to maybe 26 inches.  The stuff cuts a lot like red oak, very fast, with no waves. Pretty routine sawing, I was thinking of making a video.

I did see more wind shake than I normally do, apparently that is common for Chestnut Oak.

I enjoyed watching Roy Underhill, I loved to watch him injure himself, seems he'd do it about every show.

As a matter of fact, it was watching one of his shows that helped the RRQS light bulb click on.  He was splitting white oak logs and hand planing the resulting wedges into flat quarter sawn boards.  It was very organic and easy, and always resulted in QS boards.  I remember thinking that there should be a way to make quarter sawing equally easy and routine.  I mean if he could do it with a splitting wedge and hand plane, I should be able to do it with a sawmill.

I have some more chestnut oak, and a few very clean red oak logs still in line to mill.  To put things in scale, the smaller log in the middle is 24 inches in diameter, although because of the camera it looks much smaller, while the log in the back is about 5.5 feet in diameter and isn't quite as tall as the Porta Potti in the background, and the chestnut oak on the foreground is about a little less than 3 feet.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/C207BD8E-7345-4D5D-90A4-D1361DC8E22E.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601505265)
      

 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on October 01, 2020, 07:13:01 AM
Robert you need to get to work. Your log yard is getting as bad as mine.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Stephen1 on October 01, 2020, 08:30:11 AM
How will you break down  the large log? 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on October 02, 2020, 08:05:04 AM
What's that gem top center in your photo?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 02, 2020, 12:43:06 PM
I break down the large logs with my handy 52" chainsaw.  

Since I have the 70 Super, I can generally fit some pretty big whole ones on the mill and take flat sawn wood off them down while I gun barrel it, then I RRQS as normal.  I have to get it down to 34" or less to clear my blade guides.

The particular log by the Porta Potti is never going to be milled, I originally bought him to RRQS a couple years ago, but before long, he became our photo spot, as customers would go over and stand infront of it and take their photos.  Before long, the regulars had named him as "Fred" and then he started getting old and growing a beard and mushrooms, so now he will sit there until he rots away.  Everybody wants to take a picture in front of him.

The logs in the photo behind the oak are spalted ambrosia maple, I will slab up now that the weather has cooled.  They have aged for many months and are just about ripe.  I milled a test batch a couple weeks ago, and they are ready.  Its not unusual for me to age some batches of logs up to a year, if called for, to make them more marketable.

Some people prefer the basic ambrosia look, so I don't spalt all of them.  

Behind that are some hard maple.

On the other side of the yard, not in the photo are walnut logs, cherry, poplar, hickory, pecan, persimmon, locust, and some other stuff.

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 02, 2020, 07:39:35 PM
I have named that aged red maple as "Blue Ambrosia Maple", and it is a top seller for me. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3523.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1601681881)
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3657.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1601681850)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: ellmoe on October 03, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
I have named that aged red maple as "Blue Ambrosia Maple", and it is a top seller for me. 

Danny , like it! Why fight the bluing/greying? Embrace it and "make some lemonade!".
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Greyhound on October 12, 2020, 07:27:45 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on September 30, 2020, 01:08:05 PM
I did a little chestnut oak today, it quarter saws pretty nice, with lots of fleck.  Its a little darker than the true white oak I normally quarter saw, but I'm sure this will sell well.  The logs weren't that big, but the waste is minimal with this technique.
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/611B9267-9A65-4543-9C86-F89FD74EEDEF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485567)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/7EA12D43-A6C5-4CDC-921F-1967F32DE6E4.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485583)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/5D34F1F9-A56E-4C5F-AAFF-78E56136044D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485606)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/0D0AE908-6B9A-4ACA-900F-D7794DA2AEC7.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1601485622)

Awesome milling!  I've got about 2 dozen ~18-25" dbh chestnut oaks dead standing on my property.  @PA_Walnut (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=36676) quartersawed some for me and some of it came out amazing.  It makes me wonder what's left out there on the stump.
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36163/67082391_10213974655109504_5852796047868297216_o.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1602545174)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36163/82143421_10215195187502051_4062332020204765184_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1602545229)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 12, 2020, 08:12:22 PM
PA knows his stuff, and makes some great wood.  Its nice seeing wide boards with fleck all the way across.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: widetrackman on October 13, 2020, 01:50:28 AM
Beautiful QS wood, I assume the qs pics are of white oak? I don't have much white oak in my woods but a lot of red oak. Will red oak qs out to be desirable or close to white oak. I like your method and plan to apply when my hyd LT35 gets hear in Dec. Looking at your pics guess I'll have to buy some logs. Great work product you are producing.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 13, 2020, 08:06:19 AM
The rays in red oak are smaller than in white oak, but they are still among the largest rays of the domestic trees.  So, red oak will also show beautiful fleck when quartersawn.  Four species (or groups of species) have large rays that show strong ray fleck.  Sycamore, beech, the white oaks, and the red oaks. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on October 13, 2020, 08:44:44 AM
Another example of QS Red Oak.  The sap wood was falling off, full of bugs.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25201/red_tiger_oak.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1602591897)
   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 13, 2020, 09:26:34 AM
From a retail point, I sell almost as much QS red oak as white oak.  It's cheaper for the customer because the logs are cheaper, and looks real nice as Sixacresand beautiful wood shows.

 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on October 14, 2020, 08:57:08 AM
Ten years ago I had more calls for QSRO than QSWO.  That changed about 8 years back; now 98% of my QS calls are for white oak.

QSRO can be striking, to say the least.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: widetrackman on October 15, 2020, 01:20:49 AM
Quote from: WDH on October 13, 2020, 08:06:19 AM
The rays in red oak are smaller than in white oak, but they are still among the largest rays of the domestic trees.  So, red oak will also show beautiful fleck when quartersawn.  Four species (or groups of species) have large rays that show strong ray fleck.  Sycamore, beech, the white oaks, and the red oaks.
Thanks for the info ,I was wondering which species had good ray fleck. I have 6-8 26" Sycamore and Beech I have found so far. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 29, 2020, 09:07:11 PM
Well, I finally made a video, step by step on my RRQS technique.  I hope it helps explains things.  

Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing (RRQS) with Hobby Hardwood Alabama - YouTube (https://youtu.be/FcVQ_MKprmI)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Walnut Beast on November 29, 2020, 11:13:35 PM
Great job! Very nice video Yellowhammer 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on November 29, 2020, 11:29:12 PM
You make it look easy Robert.
Especially when you get the quarter log to balance on one tooth of the chain turner.  😉 (bet that took a few trys)
Up here in the Great White North, Burr Oak logs 22" and over are considered biggies. 
I'll carry on with the rrqs on my poverty sticks, and dream of the big timbers in 'Bama.
Thanks for the excellent video. 👍👍
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on November 30, 2020, 12:08:38 AM
That's great YH!  Do you have a logger you buy such clear oak from?  Do you have to pay a lot for such clear logs?  Are you competing with overseas buyers?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 69bronco on November 30, 2020, 05:30:28 AM
Thank you for sharing!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on November 30, 2020, 07:01:24 AM
Nicely done.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on November 30, 2020, 07:24:50 AM
Quote from: Brad_bb on November 30, 2020, 12:08:38 AM
That's great YH!  Do you have a logger you buy such clear oak from?  Do you have to pay a lot for such clear logs?  Are you competing with overseas buyers?
That big WO is worth $2-$2.50/bdft to a logger if they know the commercial quartersaw market.  I too am curious as to what that costs in Alabama.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 30, 2020, 07:57:26 AM
I mainly quarter saw white oak, red oak, and sycamore.  I can cherry pick high grade logs from local sources, but it takes time to stockpile enough logs to bother to saw up.  I do compete against other buyers, but it's not a problem.  Recently, I paid $800 for one white oak log, which was a lot, but I sold the wood for $3,200, a pretty good return.  That's why I won't use the old QS techniques, a miss is big money.  With this technique, I may go several logs without any misses.  I can confidently buy logs knowing I won't butcher them up.  

This also gives me an ace up my sleeve which allows me to switch from flat sawn mode to quarter sawn mode instantly, on any log, if I get into good log, unexpectantly.  For example, if I'm just mill run sawing and I square a cant and the log looks good and clear, I'll just split the cant wherever I am and get to RRQSing it.  The cant doesn't have got be an octagon, it can be traditionally four sided, as well.  So each log can be switched from flat sawn to QS at will, and vice versa.  There's no need to be over committed in either direction until I actually get into the log. 

Handing the little wedges with the chain turner can be sporty, but it's rare for me to drop one.  The goal is to be hands off on every log except the offloading.  I'm not even sure where my mill cant hook is.

I guess people saw how effective the drag back shelf was in pulling several boards back at once, holding them, and dropping them on the outfield table exactly where I wanted them.
 

 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: dougtrr2 on November 30, 2020, 08:00:21 AM
It looked like the first step, not shown, was to turn the log into an octagon.  Is it critical that it be a perfect octagon or just close?

Doug in SW IA
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 30, 2020, 08:05:28 AM
You can't reverse roll with the claw turner on the LT40 the same way as with the chain turner so that you have to use the 2-plane clamp to position the the growth rings to the saw blade.  Jake and I quartersawed a lot of logs with the reverse roll of the chain turner on his LT70, but Robert Robert figured out how to reverse roll using the 2-plane clamp to move and hold the cant in all kinds of crazy angles and positions.  That was a breakthrough for us chain-turner-challenged-just-have-a-claw-folks.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on November 30, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 30, 2020, 07:57:26 AM
I mainly quarter saw white oak, red oak, and sycamore.  I can cherry pick high grade logs from local sources, but it takes time to stockpile enough logs to bother to saw up.  I do compete against other buyers, but it's not a problem.  Recently, I paid $800 for one white oak log, which was a lot, but I sold the wood for $3,200, a pretty good return.  That's why I won't use the old QS techniques, a miss is big money.  With this technique, I may go several logs without any misses.  I can confidently buy logs knowing I won't butcher them up.  

This also gives me an ace up my sleeve which allows me to switch from flat sawn mode to quarter sawn mode instantly, on any log, if I get into good log, unexpectantly.  For example, if I'm just mill run sawing and I square a cant and the log looks good and clear, I'll just split the cant wherever I am and get to RRQSing it.  The cant doesn't have got be an octagon, it can be traditionally four sided, as well.  So each log can be switched from flat sawn to QS at will, and vice versa.  There's no need to be over committed in either direction until I actually get into the log.

Handing the little wedges with the chain turner can be sporty, but it's rare for me to drop one.  The goal is to be hands off on every log except the offloading.  I'm not even sure where my mill cant hook is.

I guess people saw how effective the drag back shelf was in pulling several boards back at once, holding them, and dropping them on the outfield table exactly where I wanted them.



The video was quite excellent, no silly music, just sawing and explanation was excellent.  The only thing I'd have enjoyed would have been to see the pull back and sort in more detail. 
So if it is ok to ask, what were the dimensions of that $800 log.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on November 30, 2020, 11:12:46 AM
Excellent job on the video, I enjoyed it.  Thanks for taking the time to make it and share with us! :)

A couple of questions.  Do you like the dragback fingers better than your modified dragback on the old mill?  Sawing on the 70 was quite fast especially the drops.  Was it all real time or did you speed up the video?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boonesyard on November 30, 2020, 11:39:47 AM
We get a lot of big bur, white and red oaks here that we've been using this method on. Thanks Robert, excellent video.

I really like my 50 but MAN, that 70 really cooks  :o.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 30, 2020, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: dougtrr2 on November 30, 2020, 08:00:21 AM
It looked like the first step, not shown, was to turn the log into an octagon.  Is it critical that it be a perfect octagon or just close?

Doug in SW IA
The outer shape doesn't really matter as long as the pith is properly aligned and the edges are straight and parallel so that when they are rotated everything stays straight.  I routinely do rectangular cants, and big logs that have been Bibbyed down to something manageable may have 9 sides, or whatever.  There is a failsafe, if the pith comes out of alignment on a log half, I just use the toeboards to realign and saw it.  

However, you are correct, I did skip the whole gun barreling part of sawing in the video, but there are some tricks to make it go faster and still be accurate, maybe I'll make another video on that.

High grade white oaks here go for about $1.50 to 2 per bdft, the $800 log was about 450 bdft, I don't remember exactly, but not until I had octagoned it was I able to get it within my 34" blade guides to split it.  Thats where a LT70 wide really shines, I can split some big ones, and once they are split, I can RRQS them in a heartbeat.


Quote from: Larry on November 30, 2020, 11:12:46 AM
Excellent job on the video, I enjoyed it.  Thanks for taking the time to make it and share with us! :)

A couple of questions.  Do you like the dragback fingers better than your modified dragback on the old mill?  Sawing on the 70 was quite fast especially the drops.  Was it all real time or did you speed up the video?
I appreciate you all watching it.  It just seems I don't have a lot of time or skill to make the videos because I'm sawing and don't have time to run a camera.  In this case, my little Go Pro was locked up, so I shot the whole thing with my iPhone, which is why the picture is slightly rotated.  Ooopps.  

Rest assured, all the sawing, dragback, head raise, head lower, and etc clips were done in real time, no speed ups.  I did skip through a couple on the two plane clamping sequences because they were even boring to me and didn't add anything to the sawing.  I was going to delete them, they totaled about 10 seconds, but I figured if I deleted them you wouldn't see the whole sequence, from start to end, and it would leave a gap, so I just jumped through them.  

One of the problems with the LT70 is that while the engine is running, the hydraulics are actually a little too fast, so I will idle down and run the hydros at idle, which is maybe 1/3 full speed maybe or slower.  So every now and then in the video, you'll hear the engine pitch change or even the squal of the brake, as I slow down to idle to do more precise hydraulic movements.  I'm not changing the speed of the video, I'm changing the speed of the hydraulic functions.  This is really nice with the engine driven hydraulics of the LT70, its got both high speed and low speed hydraulics, based on throttle setting.  I use both modes all the time.       

The jury is still out on whether I like the individual fingers of the LT70 or the mono dragback of the LT40.  The biggest issue I have with the LT70 fingers is when I'm sawing the first wedge cut and the little bugger actually slips between the fingers and dismounts the band on a high speed pullback with the band running.  That's another reason I saw down several boards, I need to get the width greater than the distance between the fingers.  I've also had it happen with a stray sliver of bark.  However, the fingers give me more visibility than the LT40 did.



Quote from: boonesyard on November 30, 2020, 11:39:47 AM
I really like my 50 but MAN, that 70 really cooks  :o.
Yes it does, it will smoke through logs.  I'm using 1.5" x 0.055" WM Turbo 7 Silvertips (not Double Hards).  As I mentioned above, this video is not creative film editing, its just pure, real time routine sawing, height adjustments, auto down, pattern mode switching, etc joystick based milling with a LT70.  It's just plain fast, and it will do it day after day.  I figure if folks want to watch a science fiction video, they can just rent the movie Avatar or the Star Wars, not one of my sawing videos. :D :D


Quote from: nativewolf on November 30, 2020, 10:29:02 AM

The video was quite excellent, no silly music, just sawing and explanation was excellent.  The only thing I'd have enjoyed would have been to see the pull back and sort in more detail.
Welllll..., I was having a little user error with my camera.  My GoPro wasn't working and I did all the filming with the iphone, and I figured if I moved it, I'd never get it back to the correct location.  So I just left it where it was, on the roller table, propped it up with a rock.  The only time I did the final filming of the stacking was at the end, and you may notice I was filming with one hand and offloading with the other.  At least I didn't drop the camera, but I sure didn't do a good job keeping everything centered.


Quote from: Andries on November 29, 2020, 11:29:12 PM
You make it look easy Robert.
Especially when you get the quarter log to balance on one tooth of the chain turner.  😉 (bet that took a few trys)
As they say down here is the south, sometimes all you need is one good tooth. :D :D

I have flopped a few in the wrong direction with the turner before, throw them off the mill, but this one wasn't too bad.  

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: alan gage on November 30, 2020, 02:07:13 PM
I really appreciate the video. Cleared up a couple things I'd either forgotten or missed when the post was first started. Big thumbs up.

Alan
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ljohnsaw on November 30, 2020, 02:45:03 PM
I read your descriptions from quite a while back.  What I pictured in my mind was WAY different that what you were doing with regards to the angle to the rays and how many boards you were able to cut before adjusting the cant.  Great video.  Wish I had something to practice that on (and a hydraulic mill, too!)  I'll have to watch that a few more times to watch those marked fleck angles to the blade.  The only thing I didn't like was your banner at the end blocking the view of the boards!  Would have been better at the top or maybe a transparent banner.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on November 30, 2020, 02:57:46 PM
Robert, thank you for taking the time to make the video and post explanations. I noticed the pulsing delivery of the blade lube. I think that would benefit us while sawing live oak. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on November 30, 2020, 03:03:08 PM
Wasn't it "regular roll" in the video?  If so when do you reverse roll?
Did you cut it blind from the near end, or were you checking the batches you pulled back before proceeding?  In GA with the sycamore you were looking at each board not trusting what the ends said. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Tristen on November 30, 2020, 03:58:11 PM
Ya the title " reverse roll "  had me confused also.  I almost did not read this post.   I figured you needed the chain log turner.   But I can use that method with the claw turner on the wood mizer LT 35.  Correct ?   

very cool thanks for posting,  i subscribed to HobbyHardwood for sure can't wait for the next trick, and i can't wait to screw up my first quartersawn white oak.  (think i will start small)   Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 30, 2020, 05:19:21 PM
The reverse roll comes when sawing the other half of the log with the claw turner and the log clamp with my LT40.  It rotates the log half inward, towards the mast.  So it does the same movement, except in reverse.  I had some photos of it in the beginning of the post.  With the LT70 I can flip the log half pretty easy and cut from any direction.  

In Georgia, at the project, the logs were a little more difficult, they had lots of twist and barber pole type grain.  Thats hard to predict and its best to check every board or two as it comes off the mill.  However, with straight, easy predictable logs, I can saw it in groups of boards, as long as it's following the proper behavior.  Definately, when I pulled back a load, I would check each board when stacking it on the pallet, like I did at the end, so I knew what its pattern was, and how far I could go off angle to the rays.  Thats why at the end, when I was really off angle, I took a wedge cut and physically checked it before I continued sawing as I wanted to make sure I was on target to get every board of the last wedge.  

The marked lines on the video really show how far I can cut "off angle" and still get good fleck.  It has to do with sawing the initial boards just leading into the fleck, and the fleck building as I get deeper and closer to parallel to the rays.  If you look real close on the last piece, I started high, inspected the wedge, and sawed down until I was at max fleck and parallel to the marked rays and about split the black line.  So I knew then if I flipped that remaining piece, and put that side to the deck, and started sawing form the top, no matter what happened, I would drop into max flck boards.  So part of knowing when to stop sawing and rotate is in some part having an idea of how far off angle I can go to hit fleck on the next series.  

This technique is all about taking the guesswork out of quarter sawing.  Another reason I sawed and then pulled back packs of multiple boards blind was just to show folks that guessing wasn't involved, I had enough confidence in the technique that I would saw blind, "knowing" what I was getting into.  So I figured I'd hang my tail to the wind, and if I  didn't believe in my technique, why would anyone else?  So some of it was just showing off.  By the way, it was a true 100% hit rate log.  Zero misses.  

The lines on the end of the log really will help show some of my decisions, and why I made the cuts I did.  If you want to really get the hang of it watch the lines, watch my cuts, and watch the rotations.    
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on November 30, 2020, 06:15:39 PM
Fantastic video and method Robert!

Many thanks for sharing your method with us.

Scott
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Mossy Chariot on November 30, 2020, 08:28:05 PM
Great video Robert!!!
How many boards did you take in the middle (around the pith) before you stared the reverse roll on the halves? And were you sawing 4/4 or 5/4 boards? Thank you sir!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 30, 2020, 10:09:29 PM
 smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on December 01, 2020, 12:13:21 AM
@dougtrr2 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=46881)
I think the point of gun barreling (making an octagon), is not necessarily to make it a particular shape, but rather to make the log turn or roll such that the pith will always be the  same distance from the outside.  It makes sure the boards you cut are not tapered.  It makes the log symmetric from one end to the other.  It doesn't matter if the pith is offset either, just so long as it's offset the same on both ends.  This will mean when you are cutting boards, they will be a consistent width from one end to the other.  In order to achieve this though, you're not just making an octagon, but when you go to cut each face of the octagon, your pith must be the same distance to that cut face on each end of the log.  I actually measure the distance of the center of the pith to the mill bed and make sure it's the same on each end and then cut that face.  Cut the face such it's as high as possible while still giving you flat face.  I've seen some on here even have some wane on the face just so long as there's enough cut fact to register on the mill to keep the log section rolling evenly or clamped evenly so that the boards you cut off are consistent width from end to end.  I hope this makes sense?

As Yellowhammer said, you can RRQS a square cant, but you do lose some width(probably 1"-3"  on the boards at the center of a square face).  The octagon shape helps maximize the width of your boards.  A true round log would be ideal, but we  have no way to make a round log that is has the pith located at the same place on both ends unless you had a giant lathe that could use the pith as centers, which would not be practical.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 01, 2020, 07:33:28 AM
If you have a manual mill and don't have the log turner and two plane clamp to hold the cant at a bunch of crazy angles, you can use the facets from the octagon to put down on the bed to stabilize the log and be able to manually clamp the cant so that it does not move when sawing. By rotating around the half logs facets positioned correctly you can still yield 85+% quartersawn boards.  However, you will probably have to spin one of the half log cants around to position it with the right facets to be rotated on the bed so that you can orient the rings properly to the saw blade. 

I am selling the quartersawn sycamore boards from the 2019 Georgia Project.  I sold one the other day and as I pulled it out of the rack to get it ready to ship to Williamsburg, VA, I saw Yellowhammer's blue lumber crayon teaching marks on the end grain of the board.  Made me smile ;D.

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on December 01, 2020, 07:38:21 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 30, 2020, 10:09:29 PM
smiley_thumbsup
Hey, how you doing Peter?  Feeling ok?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on December 01, 2020, 07:39:39 AM
Quote from: Brad_bb on December 01, 2020, 12:13:21 AM
@dougtrr2 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=46881)
I think the point of gun barreling (making an octagon), is not necessarily to make it a particular shape, but rather to make the log turn or roll such that the pith will always be the  same distance from the outside.  It makes sure the boards you cut are not tapered.  It makes the log symmetric from one end to the other.  It doesn't matter if the pith is offset either, just so long as it's offset the same on both ends.  This will mean when you are cutting boards, they will be a consistent width from one end to the other.  In order to achieve this though, you're not just making an octagon, but when you go to cut each face of the octagon, your pith must be the same distance to that cut face on each end of the log.  I actually measure the distance of the center of the pith to the mill bed and make sure it's the same on each end and then cut that face.  Cut the face such it's as high as possible while still giving you flat face.  I've seen some on here even have some wane on the face just so long as there's enough cut fact to register on the mill to keep the log section rolling evenly or clamped evenly so that the boards you cut off are consistent width from end to end.  I hope this makes sense?

As Yellowhammer said, you can RRQS a square cant, but you do lose some width(probably 1"-3"  on the boards at the center of a square face).  The octagon shape helps maximize the width of your boards.  A true round log would be ideal, but we  have no way to make a round log that is has the pith located at the same place on both ends unless you had a giant lathe that could use the pith as centers, which would not be practical.
@brad_bb  Go check out the turbosaw radial master.  Lathe for a sawmill, awesome.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 01, 2020, 09:29:20 AM
@Brad_bb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6191) is exactly correct, the reason for gun barreling, with any number of facetsis to get all the facets level with the pith, from any rotational angle, to establish reference facets and corners.  Especially since one of the faces will be split down the middle and later be used as a reference.  So getting the pith aligned properly in the beginning is key to any quarter sawing technique.  While doing that, the larger you can maintain the diameter of the log, the wider the boards will be.  

Then, in order to first learn the log, I'll take, generally 3 centerboards on a smallish log, more on a bigger one, @Mossy Chariot (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41743) and from them I will start to learn how forgiving the log is going to be.  For example, if I don't get any fleck on the top of the first centerboard, thats a bad sign.  If I don't get center fleck on the middle centerboard, the dead center board, than that means I need to make adjustments to the log half with the toe boards to drive the fleck to where I want it.  Little adjustments of the log will allow the Sawyer to actually move the fleck up and down the log, as well as side to side.  Its best to practice this on a low value log, but it teaches how to move the fleck up and down the board face by tweaking the angle and rotation.  It's all about being in control of the log and fleck, not the log being in control of the Sawyer.  

For an experiment, set up a poor quality log half, and raise the rear toeboard a little and watch the fleck get stronger or weaker, then drop that toeboard, and raise the other toeboard and drive the fleck until it disappears in the other direction.  These experimental cuts are just skims, so as not to get too far off the pith.  

Danny, every time I think of the project, I smile.  I still remember the very first time we demonstrated this several years ago at one of the earlier Projects, there was a "little" nervousness about slicing and dicing a high value log with this new technique and butchering the log.  One of the guys even came up to me beforehand and whispered, "Are you sure you want to do this in front of a crowd?  I tried it once and it didn't work out so well."  I said sure "It'll be OK."  So about the second or third board, Jake, who saws a couple million bdft a year looked at me and said "I got this" and started slicing and dicing boards off, one after another like he'd been doing forever.  After the demo and few logs later, another person came up and said something like "Sure, you guys made it look easy, you've been doing it for awhile." and I responded "No, this is a new technique, and that's Customsawyer's and Danny's first or second time doing it, they are that good and its that easy."  The guy could hardly believe it.  Of course, that was the key for me, I had @WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) Danny and Jake @customsawyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1861) in the ball game, and with their experience and knowledge, they couldn't butcher a log if they tried.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on December 01, 2020, 10:55:08 AM
Sure it's "that easy" ...when you have a turner and hyd toe boards.  Haha, a bit harder on a manual mill.  Boy I need to add some hydraulics to my mill!  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on December 02, 2020, 07:29:10 AM
It's part of being on the forum. Danny and I actually learned the octagon technique on here. I think it was Arkansawyer and Bibbyman that were working with it to start with. Then I got a 35" white oak log and talked Danny into coming over and we gave it a try. We worked with it on several different logs over the next year or so and some how in all the post on the forum and talking with friends the project came to be. Yellowhammer comes to his first project and puts his twist on it and the rest is history. The log in the video was one where you didn't have to chase the fleck. If you get one where the rays disappear in just a board or two then you have to work with the log from side to side or end to end to keep high fleck in every board.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 02, 2020, 07:44:35 AM
The power of the Forum. smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 02, 2020, 08:10:30 AM
When Robert (Yellowhammer) first came, I told him, "Watch this. Jake will reverse roll the log on the mill with the chain turner onto a facet that sets up the growth rings in the right orientation to the blade.  Robert had a Lt40 with the claw, and you cannot reverse roll a cant with the claw like you can with the chain turner with precision.  

Well, being a thinking man, Robert left thinking how can I reverse roll on the LT40 with the claw and two-plane clamp, and figured out how to do that.  It also improved the octagon method, even with the chain turner, improving the % of full fleck boards from the high 80's to near 100%.  

When it comes to this milling and drying stuff, Robert sits under a tree in North Alabama and a crab apple falls on his head and really good stuff happens  :P.  

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 02, 2020, 10:07:15 AM
It all comes down to "Take Steps to Save Steps."

Going from 4 quarters to 2 halves, and now I'd like to do it as one log.  

I'm playing with an optical sight for the rear end of the log using a vehicle backup camera and display, so I can align the center of the pith without using a tape measure or moving from the head of the mill.  That's the slowest part now, the pith leveling with a tape measure.  I could save lots of steps if I got this working.

Has anyone seen one in the market? You'd think there would be something out there for this but I haven't found it.    
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on December 02, 2020, 10:45:03 AM
I thought there should be a remote camera that you set up near a target, say at a hundred yards, then look at teat via your phone.  even a spotting scope does not do it for me.  Lots of back up cameras.  got one at WM to put on the skid steer.  and on on the camper, wireless from the back of camper to a screen inside the truck.  mount at the end of the mill, or on the head.  you can move the blade up and down to get a measurement for the front.  or get a drone... not practical but fun!   ;) :) :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on December 02, 2020, 10:48:39 AM
I use a laser to put a line in front of the blade, so I know when I am past the log, especially on the return so I can hit the drop button.  that would be cool, if it could hit both ends of a log.  laser at one and and a mirror at the other.  would have to be bright and aligned precise.  also not practical.  maybe under a shed?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: alan gage on December 02, 2020, 12:19:34 PM
Regarding raising one end of the log or the other to chase fleck and some logs being more forgiving than others:

As I understand it the rays, which give the quarter sawn figure, are thin ribbons that run from the outside of the tree to the pith and theoretically, once the pith is leveled, they should be leveled too. So in a perfect world if your blade entered the log parallel to a ray it should exit parallel to the same ray and you'd have good fleck all the way down and across the board. But since nothing in life is perfect the rays tend to wander, similar to a wandering pith, which can give you good figure on one end/edge of board but not at the other. So by raising or lowering one end of the log your trying to line up wandering rays as best as possible.

Do I have the jist of that right?

Alan
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on December 02, 2020, 05:10:55 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 02, 2020, 10:07:15 AM
It all comes down to "Take Steps to Save Steps."

Going from 4 quarters to 2 halves, and now I'd like to do it as one log.  

I'm playing with an optical sight for the rear end of the log using a vehicle backup camera and display, so I can align the center of the pith without using a tape measure or moving from the head of the mill.  That's the slowest part now, the pith leveling with a tape measure.  I could save lots of steps if I got this working.

Has anyone seen one in the market? You'd think there would be something out there for this but I haven't found it.    
I thought you found it at the Georgia project having Danny at the other end. :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 02, 2020, 05:21:39 PM
@alan gage (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=36602) 
Yes, that is correct, but it's more than correct, its crucial to this technique and what separates it from more conventional QSawing techniques.  

In order to get good fleck, the log half must be aligned with the pith axially, and at the correct angle rotationally, and generally set up in the beginning with a tape measure before the first cut is ever made.  All this works great if its a straight log, but if the log isn't then the fleck may show up only at one end, or the other, or on the outside of the boards, or more to the inside.  This can really be a problem, especially if the fleck shows up in a problem area, or the same area as a defect such as a knot or split but fades out in the clear, high grade part of the board.  Using conventional qs techniques, once the pith is leveled and the quarters are sawn, you are pretty much committed that the fleck is going to show up where it shows up and that's it.  Or not show up at all.  That's what was so incredibly frustrating for me, spending all the time gun barreling, slicing the log into quarters, and ending up with quarter sawn wood but with no fleck.  Some logs I'd be down in the 75% hit range, and since I was paying extra for very high quality logs to quartersaw, this was intolerable and costing me money, big time.  Plus it was so slow, i.e. cut a log in half, then cut the first half into quarters, then the other half into quarters, then mount one quarter and start sawing it just to get misses, knowing I had 3 more quarters to go.  So I would end up with two pallets of wood, side by side, one with fleck, the other with none, and as the boards got put on the "no fleck" pallet, my irritation would rise substantially.  I actually stopped qsawing and selling quarter sawn wood for some time, it seemed much too haphazard and high labor, with too unpredictable results.

So the main advantage of technique, besides being much faster because it doesn't involve cutting halves into quarters, or whether you reverse roll or forward roll, it allows you to take little prospecting wedge cuts on the smallest part of the log half and find the fleck and then adjust the log half, if necessary to drive the fleck to exactly where you want it.  Then if the grain is stable, no more adjustments are required, but if the log has a spiral grain or taper, or crook, it allows you to take little skim cuts off the wedges and get the fleck exactly where you want it again and then start taking wider and wider boards that you'll know have fleck vs hope it has fleck.  This readjustment can be done as many times as required to stay in the fleck.  So the sawing frustration disappears and the log can be sawn without any magic required.  I think at the Project, on the very first log we did the demo on, we had to make a couple wedge adjustments, because we had a miss on one board.  That's not bad, saw up a log and only have one miss.  These days, I generally don't get misses, I just may get a board that doesn't have as much fleck as others, but it still has fleck  

The log I did in the video was a very straight and predictable oak log.  I did the demo on it because I kept getting the feeling that I was confusing people describing the intricacies of the RRQS rather than showing the basic technique.  Speaking of magic, I believe it was Magicman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011) who tried it and likened it to "Freestyle Sawing" and I loved that description.  Thats exactly what it is: do whatever you need, hold the logs half however you can, make adjustments using whatever mill you have, rotate forward, backward or whatever, to "get the fleck."  Some of the earlier posts I show me clamping and sawing boards and the cant isn't even touching the bed or the toeboards, I have it pinned against the backstops in the angle and orientation I want, and its floating off the bed.  For whatever reason on those cuts, even though the pith was initially leveled it wasn't producing the best flack and I was making on the fly, real time adjustments.  

On my LT40, due to the threat capacity and the way the log clamp and claw turner work, reverse rolling allowed me more holding options and let me generally cut wider boards because of the throat width and a lack of clearance on the idle side.  With the LT70 Wide, I have clearance in any direction.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 02, 2020, 09:30:35 PM
Dennis,

Have tape measure, will travel.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on December 02, 2020, 09:33:18 PM
Better watch it Dennis.
He's starting to sound like Palladin!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: jtmccallum on January 18, 2021, 08:52:48 PM
I had a large red oak die this summer.  I cut it down last week and the butt log looks like an ideal candidate for rrqs.  It is about 40" in diameter with a check where I would cut the log in half anyway. I have a friend who has a chainsaw mill and will be sawing slabs out of the 2nd log.  I plan to cut this log in half with the chainsaw mill to get it to fit on my LT40SUPER and then slab it parallel to the pith. Not as easy as cutting a whole log into an octagon I know but I would like to get as wide  qsawn boards as possible. I have large white oaks I will be taking out as well.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: sumpnz on January 20, 2021, 05:26:15 PM
Besides oak and sycamore what species really benefit from QS in terms of figure?  I know folks will QS a lot of wood species in order to get the straight grain and stability from that, but do other woods show the medulary rays or other interesting figure when QS?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on January 20, 2021, 05:32:05 PM
Beech.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: jtmccallum on January 20, 2021, 05:35:43 PM
Does anyone know how quartersawn beech behaves during drying. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: trimguy on January 20, 2021, 08:26:41 PM
Does anyone have a picture of quarter sawn beech ?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: DWyatt on January 21, 2021, 07:41:29 AM
Quote from: jtmccallum on January 20, 2021, 05:35:43 PM
Does anyone know how quartersawn beech behaves during drying.
In my experience, Beech never behaves. It does have beautiful QS figure, similar to sycamore but not as extreme.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: jtmccallum on January 21, 2021, 07:30:15 PM
This is the log. I think I can take 2 boards out of the center with the chainsaw mill then finish it on my mill. My friend with the chainsaw mill came down with Covid after we picked out several trees for slabbing. I will saw what I can in the meantime. It is about 10' 8" long. @


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10660/22A90CDD-99D1-407C-8765-34141FCA9096.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1611275135)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10660/AE0E0C7D-1C95-4092-9CF2-0C559D6C53C1.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1611275133)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 21, 2021, 08:53:35 PM
Thats a nice one.  That looks different than the southern beech I'm accustomed to.  Most of ours are hollow, anyway.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: jtmccallum on January 21, 2021, 09:10:13 PM
Sorry Yellowhammer. This is a red oak I talked about in a earlier post. It took me awhile to figure out how to post a photo. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on January 21, 2021, 09:21:06 PM
RO?  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on January 22, 2021, 06:58:07 AM
That looks closer to some of our white oak down here.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on January 22, 2021, 07:20:44 AM
Quote from: customsawyer on January 22, 2021, 06:58:07 AM
That looks closer to some of our white oak down here.
Yes, maybe a black oak but ...looks like a WO to me.  In which case it will QS wonderfully but you could sell the logs to the local amish QS market at $2.20/bdft if you like.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: jtmccallum on January 22, 2021, 04:32:18 PM
Upon further review this appears to be a white oak.  Deep lobes with rounded tips. I had white oak leaves confused with swamp oak for starters. I have swamp oak, white oak, burr oak and red oak in this woodlot, don't know if I have any black oak. Thanks for your help guys.  :P
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 22, 2021, 06:41:05 PM
I bet that you do have black oak.  There are some in Jeff's backyard.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: jtmccallum on January 22, 2021, 07:27:32 PM
Thanks Danny,  You are the master :)   I need to study up on my tree ID I have a few more to get out this winter. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Cruiser_79 on June 06, 2021, 06:03:18 AM
I read this topic several times and finally decided to try it myself with some alder logs. First I made some mistakes and took too much bark off the log. Thought I could saw it as a hexagon, but a octagon or decagon would have been better... So I had too much loss on the outer sides. 
The turning went very well with the chainturners, and the clamping wasn't too bad either. But the wedges are a little too big in my opinion, in the end I was surprised how much 'waste' I have. And after edging too standard dimensions I'll have more waste. 
 It was the first time so with some practicing it could get better I think. 
Another issue I have is clamping the last wedge. I can't saw lower than 1,5''. Usually I end with a beam with the pith in center of the beam, in that way I don't have to lower al my clamps and don't screw up my bands. But with the RRQS method I can't saw the last 2 boards, and even if I could saw that low I can't clamp the odd shaped wedge.  How do you guys do that? Any advice is welcome!


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53550/IMG_7364.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622972047)

quite some flints after edging I think


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53550/IMG_7363.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622972088)

Too much bark skinned of


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53550/7F8D7127-F065-4C5A-BEE2-6ACAE4913060.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622972046)

I sketched something on paper, lot of waste in comparison with sawing for grade
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on June 06, 2021, 07:21:02 AM
The fact that you can't saw down to the last isn't a deal breaker. On your last wedge once you have it opened up to a good face, turn that face down to the bed and saw down to it. If you have planned it right you can just leave a 6/4 board on the bottom.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 06, 2021, 08:27:10 AM
Since much of the best fleck is in the outermost edges of the log, it's crucial when trimming off the bark to keep the cant as large a diameter as possible and the facet cuts as shallow as possible.  The ideal octagon cut of a log with taper just grazes the bark on one end of the log to get a long facet.  Also, the deeper the cuts, the small the overall diameter, the steeper the facet angle and the more angle edge needs to be edged off the log later.  In reality, the main purpose of the faceting is to get good, straight and predictable reference edges so that future rotations can use them for setting the height and leveling the pith.  If a log is extremely straight, I will skip the faceting step, or just do one or two edges, the ones adjacent to the the splitting of the cant to get the half, which will allow me to use them as reference edges.

Time is an important pat of QSing, so reducing the amount of time prepping the log reduces the overall time of sawing it and getting to the next one. 

On the drawing, the drops are only to the pith, and don't go further down, so it's showing more waste than needed.  The drops should extend as many boards below the pith as above the pith generally to get the widest boards as possible and to reduce rotations.  It also gets more cuts with a flat facet face on one side.  Thats one reason it's important to mark the logs at first with a sharpie after a few cuts the actual apex of the wedge will have been removed and cant be used as a reference.  So it will reduce wedges and maximize wide boards through the best wood of the log.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/7F8D7127-F065-4C5A-BEE2-6ACAE4913060.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1622981776)
 


Which brings also means that octagons don't necessary have to be truly symmetric or even round.  They can be any shape that puts parallel facets along the side of the cant and and maximizes the outside diameter to reduce waste.  

There is more waste QSawing, but at one of the Projects, we Doyle scaled a log before the process and met the scale in boards produced after sawing.  One nice thing about this technique is that you can target the best boards from the best facets and likewise the narrowest boards from the worst facets. 

As CustomSawyer saws, the last faces of the last wedge has a trick to to, as soon as you see you are in good, solid fleck, then rotate that face down and start sawing down to to, knowing the worst faces will be high, and the best faces will be as the drops continue, that way your last board should be a high fleck, wide but just thicker if you cant get down to 1".  Since that face is wide, and is flat to the deck, it's easy to clamp.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Cruiser_79 on June 06, 2021, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 06, 2021, 08:27:10 AM
Since much of the best fleck is in the outermost edges of the log, it's crucial when trimming off the bark to keep the cant as large a diameter as possible and the facet cuts as shallow as possible.  The ideal octagon cut of a log with taper just grazes the bark on one end of the log to get a long facet.  Also, the deeper the cuts, the small the overall diameter, the steeper the facet angle and the more angle edge needs to be edged off the log later.  In reality, the main purpose of the faceting is to get good, straight and predictable reference edges so that future rotations can use them for setting the height and leveling the pith.  If a log is extremely straight, I will skip the faceting step, or just do one or two edges, the ones adjacent to the the splitting of the cant to get the half, which will allow me to use them as reference edges.

Time is an important pat of QSing, so reducing the amount of time prepping the log reduces the overall time of sawing it and getting to the next one.

On the drawing, the drops are only to the pith, and don't go further down, so it's showing more waste than needed.  The drops should extend as many boards below the pith as above the pith generally to get the widest boards as possible and to reduce rotations.  It also gets more cuts with a flat facet face on one side.  Thats one reason it's important to mark the logs at first with a sharpie after a few cuts the actual apex of the wedge will have been removed and cant be used as a reference.  So it will reduce wedges and maximize wide boards through the best wood of the log.

Which brings also means that octagons don't necessary have to be truly symmetric or even round.  They can be any shape that puts parallel facets along the side of the cant and and maximizes the outside diameter to reduce waste.  

There is more waste QSawing, but at one of the Projects, we Doyle scaled a log before the process and met the scale in boards produced after sawing.  One nice thing about this technique is that you can target the best boards from the best facets and likewise the narrowest boards from the worst facets.

As CustomSawyer saws, the last faces of the last wedge has a trick to to, as soon as you see you are in good, solid fleck, then rotate that face down and start sawing down to to, knowing the worst faces will be high, and the best faces will be as the drops continue, that way your last board should be a high fleck, wide but just thicker if you cant get down to 1".  Since that face is wide, and is flat to the deck, it's easy to clamp.

Thanks for the advice. My drawing isn't good indeed, I can get one or two boards more below the pith to have wider boards. But if I cut below the pith, all the following boards get narrower when I turn a few times more? Aren't you losing the wide boards really quick? 
Another question; when you start gun barreling, do you turn the log 180 degrees after each cut to make sure the opposite sides are exactly parallel?   At my saw I have to make sure that the facet cut isn't too wide because otherwise it won't fit between the clamps. Don't ask how I know that  :D
And do you usually cut it to 8 corners or 9,10 or more at bigger logs?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 06, 2021, 11:39:42 PM
Yes and no on the wide, most logs I saw have an off center pith so I will take wide cuts from very or any facet depending on quality. For example, if a lig has a way off center pith, when j spout the log, I may only QS the wider half and flatsaw if vertical grain saw the narrower half.  Of if I see I'm getting into knots or other defects, I'll rotate that over as soon as possible and if the next facet has clean boards, I'll rake as many of the, as wide as I can, knowing the narrower boards are lower quality anyway.  So I drive the pattern for high grade, wide boards or low grade narrow.

As far as gunbarreling, I'll usually cut 0 and 90, so I don't have to move the toe boards much between them.

I usually do 8 cuts.

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Cruiser_79 on June 07, 2021, 02:59:07 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 06, 2021, 11:39:42 PM
Yes and no on the wide, most logs I saw have an off center pith so I will take wide cuts from very or any facet depending on quality. For example, if a lig has a way off center pith, when j spout the log, I may only QS the wider half and flatsaw if vertical grain saw the narrower half.  Of if I see I'm getting into knots or other defects, I'll rotate that over as soon as possible and if the next facet has clean boards, I'll rake as many of the, as wide as I can, knowing the narrower boards are lower quality anyway.  So I drive the pattern for high grade, wide boards or low grade narrow.

As far as gunbarreling, I'll usually cut 0 and 90, so I don't have to move the toe boards much between them.

I usually do 8 cuts.
That would take just more practicing I guess. Lot of logs over here are off center as well, due to the wind. Maybe it's better to focus on the bigger halve, and flat saw the small halve. The center of the small halve will give some quarter sawn boards as well. 
Next time I will take some more time to achieve parallel facet cuts, so I don't have tapered boards. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 07, 2021, 08:08:57 AM
After a little practice, you'll be able to do this process in your sleep, with very little waste, and sawing can be done at almost flat sawn speeds.

However, tapered boards are a yield killer.  Despite the time lost, it's critical to get at least the first two 90° facets dead on, generally within a 1/4" but I like 1/8" if possible.  So a tape measure is critical at this point.  

Tapered boards should be avoided at all costs, because it means at least one facet is off axis, so edge drop at the edger will skyrocket. Also it will drop the intensity of the fleck.  So normally I will l carefully level the pith on one side, using a tape measure, and then since taper doesn't change much at 90°, I'll rotate quickly to the 90° side, and sometimes the toe boards won't hardly have to be adjusted.  Then, I'll tape measure and take that facet off.  I use a tape measure on both of these and get these dead on.  If I have a lumber crayon, I'll even mark these two edges because I know they are perfect, and everything else will be done using them as references. 

I am just trying to skim of just get under the bark on the narrowest end of the log, to maximize overall diameter.  If everything looks good with two sides cut at 90°, I'll reverse rotate back 90° to get the facet at 45°.  So now, I'll have 3 finished, nice and parallel facets. 

The reason I don't get the 45° facet second I that I like to use the two 90°'s as a reference.

At this point, the slowest part of the sawing process is over, because now I can put the tape measure down, and get to sawing by eyeball.  First thing is to rotate all the flat sides down to the bed and get the facets on the opposite sides. At that point, I'll also just skin the other facets I didn't get earlier, or go back and clean up whatever needs adjusting. 

Its important to look out for any taper on the facets because that is huge waste issue, and it also means the whole process will suffer later.  So what to do?  Just watch, and if a facet is tapered, fix it by eye.  This is where practice come in, at some point, you'll be able to only need to use the tape measure for the first two 90° cuts, and everything else can be done by eye.  At that point, if a facet is tapered, it needs to be fixed, immediately. 

There are lots of straight edges on a sawmill to use as a sighting gauges, whether it be the heights of the side supports, the drop of the drawback fingers, etc to help see if a facet is tapered.

You touched on it, this technique allows tremendous freedom when sawing, especially in an off center pith log.  Also, at all times, on pretty much any species, especially ones that have a tendency to develop bow when drying, I won't hesitate to switch between flatsawing and RRQSing in a heartbeat, on the same log.  

I even did it on some mineralized poplar the other day, and it makes a more striking look, in some instances.  I don't bother tape measure leveling the pith when doing "normal" logs, but won't hesitate to turn it into rift and quartersawn lumber instantly.  I'm not looking for ray fleck, so don't waste time with a tape measure, but am going for more of a vertical grain look.  This is what the results look like in this species:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1705.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1620386866)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Thumping D on June 08, 2021, 10:35:43 PM
°, I'll reverse rotate back 90° to get the facet at 45°.  So now, I'll have 3 finished, nice and parallel facets. 

The reason I don't get the 45° facet second I that I like to use the two 90°'s as a reference.

Thanks for including this part...  Not doing so caused me some consternation on a couple of logs.  I had been making it more complicated than necessary.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: moosehunter on June 14, 2021, 03:00:47 PM
Did my biggest log to date with the RRQS. Started with a 14' x 34" red oak.
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11405/IMG_20210612_080925450.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623696322)
 
Got it bibbyed down and cut in half.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11405/IMG_20210612_093002364_HDR.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623696405)
 
Pith was off center by quite a bit but still was able to center it and pith stayed consistent through the log.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11405/IMG_20210612_100152351.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623696539)
 
Client was very happy as was I. Second log was 8' x 34". 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11405/IMG_20210612_124201261.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623696716)

I just love that like MM, I just saws em & leaves em! I didn't have to stack this mess! 
That trailer load is maybe 60% qs? Give or take. Lot of flat sawn trying to get both logs down to 24" so I could saw through the center. With the pith off center I think I ended up at 23 wide and 27 high.
If you pros see something I could have done better please share, I am always willing and eager to learn.
mh
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 17, 2022, 11:38:05 PM
Here is a video on a newer, abbreviated method of RRQS that I have been using for a while now, and at some point I started calling the the Jelly Roll method, because it eats logs fast and is a little sloppier and messier than the classic RRQS, and does miss occasionally.  However, it's very fast, and most times I can go through an entire log half without having to stop, which is extremely useful since I mostly saw alone and don't want to stack or even touch boards until I am done.

If you have watched my videos on the drag back medication, the "drag back shoes" you will now see why they are invaluable to my style of sawing.  Their ability to carry and hold a group of boards and allow me to drop them anywhere is highlighted in this video.  

I use this technique not only for quarter sawing, but also for vertical grain sawing, which I have started doing on pretty much every species I saw, as a way to combat log stress and board bow.  So I routinely use it on oaks, pecans, hickories, cherry, locust, sassafras, and even poplar.    

I also have done many, many logs without even taking the bark off, as gun barreling is not necessary, this method lends itself to that, as well as splitting the pith by eye without using a tape measure.  I can make any adjustments with the toeboards, and just start sawing.  It also lends itself to smaller logs, and I have vertical grain sawn some that weren't much bigger than a jelly roll.

Jelly Roll Quartersawing, (#1 Way, Better Than RRQS) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/PUBJ7pRXKiE)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on February 18, 2022, 12:00:28 AM
"Jelly Roll B-train.''
:D :D :D :D
Nice video and great milling results. 
.
PS; that train was loud, but in previous drone aerial shots, why aren't there aren't any railroads close by ?   ;)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Southside on February 18, 2022, 12:10:43 AM
When you go to enter into a new beginning Auto down point on a new face rather than taking your hand off the left joystick and hitting the Esc button then the Auto down, set the head where you want it, hit the very top, left, button on the left joystick twice.  The first push takes you out of Auto down and goes into manual mode, the second push puts you back into Auto down, and resets the starting drop point to where the head is.  

Chases are won in the corners, not the, flat, straight runs.   ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 18, 2022, 01:03:52 AM
Great video 👍
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on February 18, 2022, 06:25:11 AM
Great video. Nicely done as always. This videoing reminds me of shrimping with Forest Gump. It's tough.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 18, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
Quote from: Andries on February 18, 2022, 12:00:28 AM
"Jelly Roll B-train.''
:D :D :D :D
Nice video and great milling results.
.
PS; that train was loud, but in previous drone aerial shots, why aren't there aren't any railroads close by ?   ;)
Yeah, I don't know, it was like the train was right next to me, but all I "saw" (pun intended) was the wood coming by.  Toot Toot!!
  
Quote from: Southside on February 18, 2022, 12:10:43 AM
When you go to enter into a new beginning Auto down point on a new face rather than taking your hand off the left joystick and hitting the Esc button then the Auto down, set the head where you want it, hit the very top, left, button on the left joystick twice.  

I agree, I generally like the joystick reset button, but for this video I wanted to go retro and do as much as possible off the screen instead of the joystick.  Also, I since I was talking and distracted, I didn't want to get into the wrong mode and screw up the cuts on the video, and I have a tendency to not look at the display and get in the wrong mode.  I've done it more than once.  Get distracted, make a mistake.    
In the case of a one take video, I opted for the slower, more sure approach.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Old Greenhorn on February 18, 2022, 08:19:19 AM
Beautiful video and beautiful technique easy to understand. Doing it remains a challenge. ;D Glad I am running a 50, those joy sticks would take me a long time to learn, especially since the 50 has the head on the right and the bed on the left. Oh boy would I be messed up.

Your "jelly Roll' name brought an old song to mind, but the original was a bit risque' for this place, so here is a cleaned up version by Ol' Sachmo that was suitable for general release. You can search the title to find the original lyrics.

 Thanks for learning us up!

I Ain't Gonna Give Nobody None of My Jelly Roll - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQsAZOe3PTA)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on February 18, 2022, 10:03:31 AM
Robert, YH
Good info in the Jelly Roll technique.  Hughes net has increase my data cap, so I can watch more milling videos, now. 

I wish you would make a short video of how you utilize the roller bed set up perpendicular to your mill.  I have one but don't know where the best place to use it. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Resonator on February 18, 2022, 10:31:14 AM
Great video! Easy to understand RRQS steps, and liked the editing with the Picture-in-picture YellowHammer-camera. smiley_thumbsup
(And the lumber looked beautiful too.) ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on February 18, 2022, 10:39:16 AM
that is a great technique, no muss no fuss.  do you have a technique for those of us trying to watch our figure?  :)  (jelly roll) 8) your boards had great figure!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 18, 2022, 11:37:14 AM
Quote from: Sixacresand on February 18, 2022, 10:03:31 AM
Robert, YH
Good info in the Jelly Roll technique.  Hughes net has increase my data cap, so I can watch more milling videos, now.

I wish you would make a short video of how you utilize the roller bed set up perpendicular to your mill.  I have one but don't know where the best place to use it.
Sure, sounds like a useful video.  Basically, I use three tables that over the years I settled to.  A non roller table for the mill outfeed, (tried a roller table and did not like it) with only one roller on the end, and the perpendicular full roller table with a down slope to automatically dump stuff into the loader.  Then I have the non roller steel table as a staging table.  Plus the Yellowhammer dragback shoes.  

Thanks all for the compliments on the video editing, I'm not a Spielberg, that's for sure.  The editing takes quite a bit of time, and the camera work does as well.  Sawing is easy....

I made the log green so it would be appetizing.  I probably should have made it strawberry red.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: forcemac on February 18, 2022, 01:20:14 PM
I love your quarter sawing vids.  Makes me yearn for proper band mill.  I dream about quitting my day job and just saw for the joy of it.  

Its special to see you share your talent, enjoyment and success.  Keep them coming.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: SawyerTed on February 18, 2022, 01:41:59 PM
Another Yellowhammerism, "If you don't have a drag back, you are suffering."  

Sometimes you don't know you are suffering until you do! :D :D  My wife is only luke warm about the sawmill upgrade.  She will be convinced when she catches lumber and slabs off the drag back.

There's so much to learn in your videos.  Some is obvious and some not so.  Like the gray drag back table and the roller skate conveyor are not the subject of the video but are definitely worth noting.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 18, 2022, 04:17:53 PM
I cannot imagine sawing alone without drag back.  This child don't like suffering.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on February 18, 2022, 05:48:30 PM
Great vid Robert; thanks as always for sharing your techniques and knowledge.

Regarding the triangular shaped discards from the QS process, we make a pass on the sharp part about an inch down and then sell them for 2" thick dunnage to folks that are picking up lumber on a trailer and did not bring anything to put under it.  Usually we get $5 per 48" length.  

Have your figured out a profitable use for them?

Scott


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13296/qs_dunnageC.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1645224850)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 19, 2022, 12:10:57 AM
No, I don't use them for anything, I've tried and their randomness makes them difficult to find a use for.  Dunnage is a good idea, but I just don't do that much with them.  I do have customers who come by and pay $20 for them for firewood.  

@SawyerTed (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=38503) 

You are correct, I've done lots of little things that make sawing easier and faster for a one man band like myself.  Everything from drilling a 2 inch hole in my water lube tank to putting a manual valve on my Lubemizer line.  The tables are certainly also a part of it, and a non roller, flat top table is sometimes more useful than a roller table.  For example, roller tables have a tendency to orient and feed boards in a perpendicular direction on the roller, whereas flat top tables allow sliding.  So that's why a straight line rip saw, SLR, should never use a roller table as an infeed or outfeed, because the rollers of the roller table can pull a board and fight the SLR, where a flat top table doesn't put any influence on the boards and so doesn't effect or influence the straightness of the feed of the SLR.  This same principal can be applied for use on the mill, I use flat top tables where I want the mill to control the direction of the board movement, and roller tables where I want the rollers to control it.  Flat top tables where I want to control the distance of travel due to,friction, and roller tables where I want gravity to take over, such as the perpendicular outfeed roller table, which I have purposefully bent the last roller to cause it to drag and act as a brake.  That's why tossed the wedge piece instead of putting it one the table.  Plus I was mad that I actually had to stop and unload it by hand.  

I have a beautiful WM roller outfeed table for my sawmill, but I don't use it for these reasons.  It spent years out rusting in the woods until I found a use for it with my Baker edger.  It is very useless on a sawmill.  A flat top steel or wood, with a single roller at the end is much more useful.  Also, the dragback shoes are crucial, because not only does it let me carry and drop boards where I want, I can pull them back and stack in 3 dimensions, side by side as on the video, or on top of each other.  If I pull them back far enough, I can do the B Train style of double feeding as in the video, but if I don't pull them back as far, and drop them early, then I can stack boards on top of the previous stack.  That's why at the 9 min mark I stopped to hand pull the boards back a foot or so, they were in position for a top stack of the next pack to be fed as opposed to the rear push.  So just pulling them by hand a foot of so changed the way I could stack them with the drag back.  If the pack I pulled was flat boards, with no wedge on top, I would have left them where they were and pulled the other boards back on top of them to make a taller pack that I could B train on the next run.  This would be a good subject for a video. 

It's a fact, for an operation like mine, "if you don't have a dragback, you ARE suffering." 

I like that as a Yellowhammerism.  Short and sweet.  I need to make a list somewhere.

 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: wkf94025 on February 19, 2022, 02:22:50 PM
Any adaptations of RRQS to swing arm?  Curious what other swing arm operators think when they watch @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) video.  I have a fair bit of white oak and red oak to slay this year.  Love the results in the photos here by YH and others.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on August 11, 2022, 08:30:06 AM
Thank You Robert.  

I will start a total QS White Oak/Red Oak job Saturday so I have done some reviewing and re-watching.  This is a several times repeat customer and as usual, he wants nothing but QS.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on August 11, 2022, 09:03:45 AM
This will work fine, and goes pretty fast, except for the gunbarreling which is aggravating but common to all QS techniques.  

With the jelly roll, I simplified the rotations to just landing on the facets, and that works 90% to 95% percent of the time, but if the customer wants 100% fleck, them I sometimes rotate not exactly to the facets but where ever the rotation gives the best fleck.  Basically rotate to where I just barely see fleck, and them saw boards until it just disappears on one face and rotate again.  Most of the time, though, that lines up with the facets anyway.  The log will tell you.  On this log, the facet rotations were perfect and so well aligned I didn't even have to look at the boards as I was sawing, I just knew they were right and pulled them back.  When we do this at Jake's project, he pulls them back one at a time and we check them as they slide by.       

One thing I've been doing lately to speed up the measuring to the bed process is I put a couple "sliders" or pieces of movable 1/8" x 1" steel x 18" or even a couple pieces of narrow boards, like the metal leg of a framing square, on each side of the bed frame where the log ends land and use that as a quick reference to measure from the mill bed frame instead of the bed rails, because sometime the bead rails are covered or hard to measure from.  I just leave them there log to log, day to day, even, they don't get in the way, and that solves the problem of trying to measure from the end of a log to the bed so I always have a flat place to measure from.  

I rewatched the video and you can see a small narrow wooden board about an inch or two wide, under the bed rollers, 1 min 8 seconds in the video, where I was measuring from the bed frame.  I have them on each side.    
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on August 11, 2022, 01:11:38 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 11, 2022, 09:03:45 AMI rewatched the video and you can see a small narrow wooden board about an inch or two wide, under the bed rollers, 1 min 8 seconds in the video, where I was measuring from the bed frame. I have them on each side.
I like that.

While scrolling through this topic I found where I QS'd for this customer on page 9, Reply #175.  Your response is where the expression; "freestyle" originated.  :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on August 11, 2022, 02:30:57 PM
Yes, I remember that clearly; the fact that you had done it, and described it perfectly in that one word was groundbreaking to me as it gave the technique legitimacy, and also explained that it wasn't a paint by numbers technique, but still required awareness of overall sawing technique, if not also the method.

The Jellyroll technique was a years' later offshoot of the "freestyle" comment, because as I taught the technique, I encountered people who needed closer guidance, generally because they just hadn't done it before and needed a little boost to success, or they had mills with limited or no hydraulics, so needed more secure clamping.  So I needed to simplify the technique and before too long, I started shifting over to this technique as a "turn and burn" method that wasn't quite as accurate or high yield as the original RRQS method but could be done more easily and much faster.

It just so happens that day I decided to film the whole process, and although I hadn't watched the video for quite some time, as I watched it today I said "Yep, that's how to do it."

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on August 11, 2022, 03:20:11 PM
All of the above is why I dug out the QS topic and started reviewing this morning.  I very seldom saw for woodworkers, etc.

I am actually looking forward to Saturday and breaking away from my normal "framing lumber" cut lists. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on August 11, 2022, 07:27:21 PM
On a custom sawing job without an edger their will be lot more boards to edge than normal on the mill.  I suppose if the customer agrees to an hourly rate it will work out ok.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on August 11, 2022, 07:46:25 PM
This will be a hourly rate job but most of the edging will be done by the customer on his table saw.

I have sawed for him several times so there are no surprises.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on August 11, 2022, 09:16:04 PM
If he lets it dry, than uses a ripping sled on the table saw that's fairly efficient.  Its gonna crook as it dries anyhow.

 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on August 11, 2022, 10:13:32 PM
I agree, I don't even edge them green on the mill or edger, until they are dried.  One of the advantages of QS lumber is that the stress is in the crook direction so keeps the board flat but most all will be straigehting later, whether edged off the mill or not.  So I just do it once after the wood is dry.  

I like the QS process, but still get aggravated with the tediousness of the gun barreling.  Once I get to the QS prices, it's like I'm almost done. Sometimes if the log looks very cylindrical, I'll just skip make it the facets and just use the QS process based on the bark, but sometimes that doesn't work.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on August 12, 2022, 07:44:36 AM
I learned to edge after drying too or you will do it twice  :).  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on August 12, 2022, 11:47:37 AM
Personally, i make the edging call based upon the amount of sapwood or juvenile wood cells.  Too wide a band of either along the edge and I'll run the board though the edger while still green.  I do this in order to reduce crook during the drying process.

My goal is not to remove all of the pith/sapwood  (it's best to leave some for future edging), rather I just want to remove enough to keep the boards from crooking.  Ideally I want less than 1" of sapwood in order to prevent crook.

After gun-barreling, only a few boards may need to make the trip through the edger green for the above stated purpose.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on August 13, 2022, 08:33:43 PM
I had a very successful  Jelly Rolling day (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=117564.msg1925708#msg1925708)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on August 14, 2022, 02:31:25 PM
Boy I wish there was a sawyer list of those who do RRQS or Jelly Roll Sawing.  My manual mill is just so much work doing it, plus I cannot cut wide enough for the middle thru cuts.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on August 14, 2022, 10:27:58 PM
Quote


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_2949.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1660435612)
  The top half "Jelly Rolled" off and then 4 slices taken from the center.

I snatched a picture from MM's post, think you have to click to open it.

I have a question.  In the picture MM sawed 4 slices from the center which is common practice for any quarter sawing method. 

Those four slices can be boards up to 28" wide on my mill.  They are really heavy to sticker and almost always the juvenile wood in the center ends up waste.

I often take the top third off and slide it on the arms just as MM shows in his picture.  But than I go in a different direction.  I flip the remainder on the mill and take off another third and slide it to the loading arms so I have two jellyrolls waiting.  Next I saw those four slices to the bed.  Than I stand up the four boards with the two plane clamp and take out the center juvenile wood.  So...I end up with 8 quarter sawn boards that don't crook much.  Plus they are a lot lighter to handle (good for us old guys :)).

Does anybody else do anything similar?  Maybe I making extra work for myself doing it this way.

 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on August 15, 2022, 07:28:02 AM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_2952.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1660435613)
 Many of those 20"- 24" center boards are shown here.  The customer plans to use the top and bottom boards to maybe make sorta bookmatched 40"+ tabletops.  Anyway without edging the piths out, the ball is in his court to do as he wishes with them.  If the pith splits out while drying, he can deal with it then.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on August 15, 2022, 07:53:59 AM
In oak, there is a 100% probability that the pith will split. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on August 15, 2022, 08:13:59 AM
I agree but I just saws um and .........  :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on August 15, 2022, 08:28:00 AM
Larry, I think I'm following, you are cutting out the center boards then are putting them back up on the mill and cutting the pith out first, then sawing the Jellys?  Sure, that sounds like it works well, and anything to make sawing easier is good!  

I either sticker the full width boards and run them through the edger later (you are right, they are pretty heavy) or I go the lazy way, and I will simply flip the whole mess onto the loader arms, log half and center cut boards at the same time, and when I'm ready, I flip up the loader arms and see which part of the mess wants to load back up to the deck the first and easiest, and just juggle them with the chain turner, two plane and and loader arms and separate them and process the pieces that want to be processed, and drop the remainder back down on the arms.  That way I don't really have to lift anything, I just kind of shuffle things around and cut what wants to be cut.  Most times I don't havre to hand touch anything, but sometimes I have to walk to the loader arms and do a little "sorting" and cussing, but most times it's pretty easy.  The LT70 engine driven loader arms are very fast and it's not quite like flipping an omelet in a frying pan, but that's kind off what I'm trying to do.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on August 15, 2022, 09:20:00 AM
Robert, I don't think your understanding is correct.  My understanding is that Larry starts by sawing the top third cant off the log, then flips the remaining two thirds that is left 180 degrees.  Then saws off the next third (the one on the bottom in the beginning that is now on top) leaving a center cant that includes the pith.  He saws this center cant containing the pith into those full wide boards leaving the boards in a stack on the mill bed, flips them 90°, edges out the juvenile wood, thus eliminating having to handle the wide center boards at all, turning the original 4 wide heavy boards into eight narrower lighter boards.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on August 15, 2022, 10:59:08 AM
Danny, that's exactly what I'm doing.  I also make use of the drag back with those eight.

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on August 15, 2022, 11:20:38 AM
That makes so much sense.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on August 15, 2022, 01:21:09 PM
Oh, I get it now.  Yeah that would be a good sequence.  I'll have to try it myself!  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: jasonb on August 20, 2022, 10:13:07 AM
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 15, 2022, 01:21:09 PMI'll have to try it myself!



It takes steps to save steps.



I've read that somewhere before.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on August 20, 2022, 04:22:48 PM
 :D
I'm always learning and looking for new and better ways to do things.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on September 19, 2022, 07:40:07 AM
I love quarter sawn oak personally but it does not sell as well as rift sawn wood around here these days. So I just square up the big oak logs and cut them into 3 ~8" sections. The outside two I just cut from top to bottom and get rift and qs. The middle section I cut out the pith and cut all qs. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 19, 2022, 07:54:52 AM
That's interesting, I have started selling rift white oak as well, which I never used to do.

When I talked to a wholesaler buddy of mine about a year ago about it, (yes I have a buddy :D) he said that rift sawn was more expensive and higher demand than Qsawn and he couldn't keep it in stock.  He is the owner of the second largest lumber distributer in the South United States, and isn't prone to exaggeration.  He had QS in stock but no rift sawn.  

I can understand it being used for barrel staves, and I still sell more Qsawn than rift to furniture makers, but he tells the truth and I'm still trying to figure out the market for rift sawn.

Who is using rift sawn and for what in large enough quantities to outsell and out demand Qsawn, and buying it at a significantly higher wholesale price?

At that time, QSWO was wholesale $7 and the Rift WO was $10, which is a huge difference.  

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on September 19, 2022, 08:40:00 AM
Back in the 80's, I had a cabinet shop which was before portable sawmills were even invented and ~15 years before I owned one.  

I preferred flat sawn for front and top stock and rift for legs.  I had no idea what those rays were and actually tried to sand those "defects" out.  I still love to see a good cathedral pattern board.  Especially one that is sawn from either the hump or horn face of a log and the pattern runs out and then picks back up.

To me too much QS can make the piece too "busy" and can distract from some furniture's beauty.

I have one customer (that I sawed for last month) that does not want even one board that is not QS, making him 100% QS.  There are others that want maximum yield and will figure out something to do with those "squirrely" boards.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_1799~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1644456194)
 
In February of this year I watched another customer look at this Red Oak board and send it to the burn pile.  I intended to retrieve it before I left, but forgot.

Lumber is not a "one size fit's all".

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Texas Ranger on September 19, 2022, 08:52:32 AM
Around here just the opposite, quarter sawn brings higher dollars.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: KenMac on September 19, 2022, 10:14:13 PM
Personally I think QS is more specialized for use in Mission or Arts and Craft styles of furniture. I really don't know if those styles are still as popular as they once were or not. Rift sawn makes perfect stiles and rails in cabinet face frames so the panels can be the attraction wood. Perfect cabinet door to me would be rift sawn stiles and rails and flat sawn cathedral grain panels. I agree with MM on this one.