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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: MartyParsons on September 06, 2015, 11:06:06 PM

Title: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on September 06, 2015, 11:06:06 PM
 Hello,
      Customer brought in 2004 Super LT40 with the Cat diesel 51 hp. There were no issues with the engine. I recommended he install the crank support kit. I also saw it was the original head gasket. I asked him if I could change the gasket to prevent future engine damage. Here is what I found.

Engine spec. Says to adjust the valves to .02 mm cold which is .008 intake and exhaust .



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~7.jpg)

I like to keep everything in order.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~8.jpg)

As you can see the gasket had failed.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~9.jpg)

The new gasket is quite different than original. Note the brass rivets. If the gasket has been changed or was a later version it will have the rivets. You can see these are on the outside of the engine. 


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~11.jpg)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~13.jpg)

When the head gasket fails it creates carbon from heating the engine oil. The carbon then drops into the oil pan and is pulled into the oil pump pick up and engine failure will be next.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~12.jpg)

You can see the air filter was just a little dirty.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~14.jpg)

Torque head bolts to 75 ft/lb. adjust valves to .008 engine turns counter clockwise from the flywheel side. Total labor time is about 6 hours.

Hope this helps. If you have a Cat 51 or 62 hp check the gasket for rivets .  Plan on replacing the gasket if this has not been done or plan an replacing the engine.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: barbender on September 07, 2015, 12:48:36 AM
Even though I don't have the Cat, I really appreciate you taking the time to share this info, Marty!
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: BCsaw on September 07, 2015, 01:07:06 AM
Great post, Marty. This is heads up information. :D :D

Pun intended!
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Peter Drouin on September 07, 2015, 07:09:12 AM
What was the hrs on the cat?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Banjo picker on September 07, 2015, 07:27:12 AM
I too thank you for posting this info.  I have a different mill but it has the perkins 62 turbo on it.  I have already been into the eng. because of piston failure, and I bet I got the original gaskets back when we put it back together.  How could you make sure you got the new gaskets if you ordered them...I would have to deal directly with Perkins...Not fun either.... ... One other thing that carbon could do for you, if you keep running the mill after getting blow by the dirty oil will ruin the turbo, if you have one.  Thanks again.  Banjo
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 07, 2015, 07:43:38 AM
Good post, Marty!  Customer is lucky you saved him alot of grief in the future.  I'm suprised he didn't notice the filters were smoked.  What did he bring the mill in for originally?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Banjo picker on September 07, 2015, 07:46:58 AM
After thinking about Marty's post.  It makes me think that I could have had a gasket failure that caused the other problems.  Engine was still cranking and running when I downed it but it was using a lot of oil.  Banjo
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on September 07, 2015, 08:35:37 AM
Hello,
Most of these head gaskets failed on the fire ring toward the pre heat chamber. This would blow combustion gasses into the push tube hole ( Lifter push rod area) . This hot gas would burn the oil in this area. Most times when you remove the oil filler cap on the valve cover you can see the carbon and black oil just by looking. The big issues is there are no external signs that there is an issue. They do use engine oil but other than that most times it is to late and the carbon does its job on the crank or oil pump.
If this happens and you catch it soon enough you then remove the engine and take off the oil pan, clean then check the oil pump to make sure it is not scored.
The mill came in for the crank support kit and service and alignment. There was another issue with the engine related to the throttle control sticking. It also has a cylinder leaking on the clamp.
It has over 4000 hours on this engine and the mill.

Even though I have seen these engines fail due to crank weakness and head gasket issues. When the engine started it makes you smile.  ;D. It is a very simple engine. Even though it is a Perkins it purrs like a Cat.

You can tell if the 2.2 engine has the new gasket by looking for the rivet one will be on the front of the engine under the thermostat and the other one is on the opposite side in the back. If you can not see the rivet then you have the original gasket. I get the gaskets from Perkins with no issues. The valve cover and the timing cover has o- rings for gaskets and I have always reused them with no issues.
The engine is a 2.2 the 51 hp has no Turbo and the 62 has the turbo. I think some manufactures play with the hp specs for marketing. 

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 07, 2015, 08:38:32 AM
They call them a Perkapillar!
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Peter Drouin on September 08, 2015, 07:24:39 AM
So Marty if I don't see  Carbon on the underside of the oil cap I'm good? Maybe?
I'm Calling Cat today. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Dave Shepard on September 08, 2015, 03:38:27 PM
I don't see any gasket sticking out on mine, so I'm guessing it's the original gasket. I'm going to pull the valve cover and look down the push rod tubes for coking.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on September 09, 2015, 03:45:59 PM
Hello,
When this mill came in there were no issues, not using oil, running ok except for the throttle solenoid miss adjustment.
I was kind of thinking. Am I spending this guys money for nothing. I kind of felt better once I saw the gasket.
It did come in for valve adjustment. If you have one of these engines you can remove the valve cover and reuse the rubber gasket. It would cost you nothing but a little time. Turn the engine over to TDC#1 check the first three valves in the front. and the 6th one. Turn the engine 180 and do the rear three and the 5th one. From the back forward.  Clean and reinstall the cover. Pretty straight forward. If you remove the rocker box make DanG you get the push rods in place. I did bend one on the first one. Lesson learned. The other think I do is plug the lifter holes with paper towels to keep the gasket material out. If it falls down in the hole it is hard to get the material out. I don't like sand paper or any type of abrasive around an engine. I just use a gasket scraper and a razor blade. If it is tough you can use gasket remover. This is only in a last resort. I do not like this stuff or my skin does not like it.
The customers first call was the engine was blowing smoke rings at idle. We talked about maintenance of the valves. Then he called and said he found the throttle limit screw bent. He replaced this but did not get it quite right.
I have the engine running and the crank support kit on. I had a hose failure on the turner now I have that to repair. I guess better here than out in the field.
I also need to put a seal kit in the clamp up and down.

Hope this helps.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Peter Drouin on September 11, 2015, 12:55:07 PM
Marty, Have you had to redo a 26 horse Cat, That WM puts on the edger?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on September 11, 2015, 11:35:53 PM
Hello,
I have not seen any of the other Cat or Perkins engines have any issues. The 62 and the 51 seem to be the issue. I see or hear of 2 or 3 a year. I think they are getting all repaired or buried in the scrap.
I saw one today 51 hp with about 3000 hours. Original head gasket and no crank support.
Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: logs2lumber on September 12, 2015, 08:20:13 AM
This is great information because i am actually looking at a lt40 super with 52 cat engine. I will sure look at the head gasket for sure and when you say crank support what do i need to look at there?  the mill has around 3200 hours on it
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 12, 2015, 08:54:52 AM
The crank support is an external bearing that is mounted on the end of the crankshaft to give it extra support.  Far as I can tell, the drive belt pulling on the end of the shaft can cause uneven wear, and you need that belt to be tight. 
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Dave Shepard on September 12, 2015, 09:03:00 AM
I guess you could call a broken crank uneven wear. :D
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 12, 2015, 09:19:13 AM
Well it wears unevenly before it breaks!  lol



Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: logs2lumber on September 12, 2015, 12:47:51 PM
Is the 51 cat with 3100 hrs ok  or is this at point to where it might have troubles? just trying to get some pointers on the engine since the mill i am looking at has it on it

Marty what would the upgrade parts to the crank cost ?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on September 12, 2015, 09:10:53 PM
Hello,
Part number for the 51 hp. 061131. $ 350.00. Crank support kit. New engine is about $8,000. Pretty cheap insurance. IMHO.
M
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Peter Drouin on September 14, 2015, 08:43:39 PM
Well Marty, I got a price from Milton Cat $2,500.00 to change the head gasket for me.
I ask him what he's smoking. :D
Where did you get the head gasket from?
I have to change some mounts too.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/mill_004~0.JPG)
The back mount is bad, I can grab the back of the cat and move it ¾" from side to side.
You can see WM added a sleeve to the new one, The one on the cat now is 1" steel only.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/mill_005~0.JPG)
I think the Wide Head 70 Super is getting closer.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 14, 2015, 09:33:26 PM
It's too bad they don't make a wide head 70 super!!!  :D   
I'll be interested to see if you go with the super or the wide!


Phone a mobile mechanic, anyone of em should be able to do a head gasket.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: coalsmok on September 14, 2015, 09:43:48 PM
Pete a head gasket is pretty simple with a manual listing tourqe pattern and amounts.  My coworkers and I can knock one out on a cat in ~4 hrs. Just put everything back where it came from.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 14, 2015, 10:07:17 PM
Definitely want a good torque wrench if you tackle it.  And yes, the pattern does matter.  Sometimes the torquing patterns can get wacky, but just follow it!  You can do it!
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: ScottAR on September 15, 2015, 12:34:17 AM
Wide head is listed as an option on the 70 super.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 15, 2015, 08:05:50 AM
Well all my dreams have come true then!  I was under the impression that it was one or the other.  If you ask me the lt70 should naturally be a wide headed super.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on September 15, 2015, 08:41:51 AM
Great info Marty.
Had I known in 2008 that the engine was Perkins I would not have gone for the diesel.
On the sawmill exchange which I havent visited lately, I used to see for sale diesel  powered mills with several thousand hrs on them with an engine practically new.
My mill has only 900 hrs on it but I will check the gasket anyway.
By the way my manual called for an amount of oil which way overfilled the crankcase.
I cant remember the amount called for in the manual.
Another issue is cold starting.
I have to block the throttle slightly after glow plugs are used or it will stall a few times.
But being a snow bird now cold starting wont be an issue.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Dave Shepard on September 15, 2015, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: petefrom bearswamp on September 15, 2015, 08:41:51 AM
Great info Marty.
Had I known in 2008 that the engine was Perkins I would not have gone for the diesel.
On the sawmill exchange which I havent visited lately, I used to see for sale diesel  powered mills with several thousand hrs on them with an engine practically new.
My mill has only 900 hrs on it but I will check the gasket anyway.
By the way my manual called for an amount of oil which way overfilled the crankcase.
I cant remember the amount called for in the manual.
Another issue is cold starting.
I have to block the throttle slightly after glow plugs are used or it will stall a few times.
But being a snow bird now cold starting wont be an issue.

I noticed the same thing on the exchange. Made me nervous, but I've run mine since new, and it seems to be OK. Doesn't start like a Kubota, though. :D
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on September 15, 2015, 11:37:29 AM
We've been running schaffers 5w30 in our diesels at work, and they've been loving it.  I guess schaffers has done some figuring and come to the conclusion that in the newer diesels they can handle the swap from 15w40 dinosaur to their 5w30 synthetic
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Banjo picker on September 15, 2015, 01:24:36 PM
Pete on the oil capisity,  if its like the 62 on my mill, part of is because you cant completely get all the old oil out.  Another goofy design by Perkins.  I try an siphon all out i can but its hard.  Why would a company put a oil pan on a motor an not put a drain completely on the bottom?  Banjo
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Peter Drouin on September 15, 2015, 05:32:00 PM
Quote from: coalsmok on September 14, 2015, 09:43:48 PM
Pete a head gasket is pretty simple with a manual listing tourqe pattern and amounts.  My coworkers and I can knock one out on a cat in ~4 hrs. Just put everything back where it came from.



I can do it, But I was going to drop off the mill and go to the Fair  ;D
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on September 15, 2015, 06:03:23 PM
Banjo,
I dont think that the drain on mine is a problem.
It is on the bottom of the pan on mine.
I had a guy tell me that you should run the oil for up to 1000 hrs as the blackness means that the oil is penetrating the casting surfaces and will work better.
sounds bogus to me.
I'll check what I have found on capacity on mine when I get home from having fun t my hunting camp over the  weekend.
BTW I use Shell Rotella exclusively in my diesels.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Dave Shepard on September 15, 2015, 07:21:51 PM
I agree with the bogus assessment. :D Diesel engine oil has additives to deal with the sulfur in the fuel. Once those additives are used up, you need to replace the oil. Oil doesn't really go bad, but it does become filled with contaminants. Some diesels will run clean oil, some turn it black right away.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Peter Drouin on September 16, 2015, 06:14:48 PM
I don't know who, But thanks for the card from Foley Engines parts for my Perki- Pillar .
And they have Rockford Clutchs for my chipper too.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: slider on March 11, 2017, 07:09:06 PM
Thanks for the post Marty.I just finished the head on my 62 horse cat. I first got suspicious when started seeing carbon deposits under the oil cap and the oil was getting dirty too soon. I pulled the rocker cover and found crud in the #2 lifter bore where the gasket failed.
This engine did not skip,nor smoke and had good power.

I knew there had to be junk in the oil pan so I pulled the engine and removed the pan. It was ugly. I also welded a bung in the bottom of the pan where it should have been to start with. Now when I change oil it all comes out.

In stead of pulling the oil pump I installed a oil pressure gage at the block and have 56 lbs of pressure so I think I am fine.
Check out the pic of the pan and how much oil is left after a service.
If anyone is going to do this be warned. This fuel system is difficult to bleed out. We finally had to use a gas rag to get it going.

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14302/001~52.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1489277044) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14302/002~36.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1489277237)
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on March 11, 2017, 08:25:01 PM
Hello,
   Yes, Yes, Yes. Remove the oil pan if there is carbon in the head. If you are risking it and have not changed the head gasket and open the valve cover fill port to add oil. Always look for carbon deposits. If you see them it may be to late. The oil pump is in the front cover and it has steel gears in the aluminum housing. It does not take much of the carbon to do the deed, then on to the crank shaft and THEN to the oil filter and it is too late to help anything but a paper weight.

Glad this helped.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Solomon on March 14, 2017, 03:50:37 PM
Quote from: MartyParsons on March 11, 2017, 08:25:01 PM
Hello,
   Yes, Yes, Yes. Remove the oil pan if there is carbon in the head. If you are risking it and have not changed the head gasket and open the valve cover fill port to add oil. Always look for carbon deposits. If you see them it may be to late. The oil pump is in the front cover and it has steel gears in the aluminum housing. It does not take much of the carbon to do the deed, then on to the crank shaft and THEN to the oil filter and it is too late to help anything but a paper weight.

Glad this helped.

Marty
This is a fantastic thread !    I have the 51 hp  Cat/perkins on my mill.   It's a  Logmaster LM4.    It is a 2008 year model.
  I bought it new and it probably has 600 hours on it,  that's a rough guess as I don't have an hour meter on it but I'm a part time sawyer.   It is certainly well under 1000 hours.
Other than being cold natured and hard to start in the cold, I have had no trouble with it at all.
Would you guess this year model to have the old gasket or the updated gasket ?   as they built the mill and called it a 2008  the motor could be an 07 or an 06 (MAYBE),
  Would my local Cat dealer be able to order the crank support kit ?    I think you're right, that sound like cheap insurance when a new motor is 8k.
  I am going to go back and reread this entire thread a couple of more times.
Thank You Marty for sharing this information with all of us and your knowledge as well.
Very worthwhile thread and thanks for thinking of the rest of us.  That's a rare quality in people these days. :P
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: slider on March 14, 2017, 05:10:15 PM
Solomon,the new style gaskets are 2 piece metal and riveted together.The old style is some type of fiber materal. From the fuel pump side you can see the rivets at the front and rear of the engine.I think the crank support is something woodmizer came up with.I can't see you getting it any cheaper at cat. My old gasket was not metal.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Solomon on March 15, 2017, 08:34:12 AM
Thanks Slider,  It's cold as a witch's behind here today.   When it warms up next week (according to that weather man who tells a lot of half truths)
I will go out there ' pull the cover off and have a look.
That crank support , no doupt, would not work on my LM4 as it is a WM part.
I am concerned about the head gasket though now that I've beem made aware of the exisiting problem.  Replacing a head gasket is no big deal, Replacing a motor is an expense I can't really afford.
I'd rather put that money into my Grandson's colledge tuition fund I've been building on for a few years now.
I learn something every time I log onto the FF and this is the only site I know of where 99 and 44/100 % of the folks on here ,
"ARE WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE"
And the phoney's are easy to spot !
  If I look at my Perkapillar and get unsure of what I'm looking for , I will PM a couple of you good folks on here.
Thanks to everybody on this forum.  You all make this the best place on the web to come to and spend a litte time.
I need to take a vacation and travel around some and acually meet some of you good folks in person.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Kbeitz on March 15, 2017, 09:39:26 AM
I would think that I would not to hard to make a crank support
for a engine.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/bearing_support.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1489585144)
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Gearbox on March 15, 2017, 09:49:41 AM
Are you guy's with head gasket problems running extended life antifreeze or dipping it with test strips ? I use test strips and add Nalcool from NAPA .
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Solomon on March 16, 2017, 08:30:48 PM
Hmm,  food for thought....   I do have access to a machine shop and a good machinist.  bearings are cheap enough as well.   :P
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on April 04, 2017, 07:31:01 AM
Bit the bullet and ordered the support kit.
In the 2 years since this thread was started by Marty it has gone up $100.
seems excessive but oh well.
I dont see any rivets on my head gasket but it is metal.
Also going to address my leaking oil pan before i start sawing this yr.
where do I find the tightening sequence for the head bolts?
Only 1100 hrs now after 9 yrs.
I'm getting older and slower.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on April 12, 2017, 07:04:28 PM
Ouch no responses yet.
I had hoped for some advice.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: drobertson on April 12, 2017, 07:28:45 PM
All this great info from a dealer, heard nothing from Indy on this end concerning my cat. Even scoured the net, nothing, so, just saying will corporate chime in?  Seems a bit strange,
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: 4x4American on April 12, 2017, 07:55:36 PM
Why not check with the engine mfg for the torque specs and pattern?  That guy Ben who bought 1x6's or whatever from you he's a diesel mechanic he may be able to help
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on April 13, 2017, 06:33:55 AM
Hello
I am out of the office. Google 2.2 Perkins head torque spec. I have a diagram in my desk.
I can get it Sat
M
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on April 14, 2017, 06:56:16 AM
Thanks Marty.
The head gasket on my mill is steel, but very thin.
I cut a piece off and it measures .010"
Should I plan to replace this?
Someone posted earlier that the original is some type of fiber, is this the case?
Also my pan gasket is leaking.
It almost looks like I can just take everything off of the fuel pump side and pivot it on the pivot points to get the pan off.
Has anyone done this or will I have to pull the whole shebang.
My mechanical ability ended when I had to start using wrenches other than 1/2 and 9/16 and a flat and phillips screwdriver.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: irvi00 on April 14, 2017, 09:05:50 PM
Unfortunately I have been down the road with "perkapillars". It cost me 25 grand. I will never buy cat or Perkins again.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on April 17, 2017, 10:35:35 AM
Hello,
   Put clean engine Oil on the threads of the bolts. The bolts are tightened in a sequence. ( Picture I have is way beyond copy and paste) Start at the center and work your way out. If you don't understand let me know.
Torque for bolts for 2.2/3024C and 2.2/3024CT - - - ( 74.5 lb ft)
Repeat the procedure to ensure that all of the bolts are tightened to the correct torque.

Intake valve lash clearance .006
Exhaust Valve lash clearance .006

Hope this helps.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on April 17, 2017, 07:34:44 PM
Thanks Marty You are SO HELPFUL.
I assume that my gasket at .010 thick is the old one.
The only problem I see is that on the opposite side from the front end of the engine there is a bracket that IMO wont let the exposed end with the rivet have enough space.
Also you indicated that you get the gaskets from Perkins.
How do I do this?
If you weren't 4 hrs away I would be on your doorstep with my mill.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: slider on April 18, 2017, 08:12:28 AM
Pete i used my diesel shop ,local to order parts from cat.Just be sure you have the serial number and arrangement number before you order.
If your pan has the drain bungs on the side i would surly take the time to have one placed in the bottom of the pan where it should be. I found one on line for 8 bucks.
I am thinking you have the late model gasket if it is metal.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on April 18, 2017, 07:50:13 PM
You know a thought on this and maybe other threads too.
Maybe we can get together a class action suit against Caterpillar, Perkins etal.
Perhaps WM would chime in too as there are MANY WM owners with these engines that have failed thru not any fault
of the user.
I'm sure WM bought these many engines on a recommendation of the manufacturer/supplier.
OMG head gaskets failing? Crank bearings failing? oil pans leaking?  in the world of automotive this would have cause a massive recall.
Thoughts on this??
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on April 19, 2017, 09:48:20 AM
Hello,
   Yes, You know this is a long story. Extended warranty was provided by the engine supplier not the engine manufacture. It was not worth the paper it was written on. Not sure of the details exactly. It does not make anyone feel good, as a manufacture, sales team, service. When you say yes this has a warranty then the company does not back it up.
We just deal with it the best we can and inform what may happen. Hope for the best. There are many that have survived with many hours and many that have not. These engines are used in many skid loaders also have issues with cranks and # 2 connecting rod, popping through the block for unknown reason. Not seen this as much on the mills.

Bottom line, make sure it has a crank support kit and the newer head gasket. Change engine oil as recommended. Check drive belt tension with the tension tool. Do not ever over tighten the drive belt. 

::)

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on April 21, 2017, 02:33:33 PM
I also have the Perkins Cat engine. I have added the bearing support but just now seen the post about the head gasket. It only has 1450 hours on it. I had Unit appraised for value before I bought it- no mention of this huge problem in appraisal. The motor has never had a wrench on it that I can visually see. It would have been a big negotiating item had I been told this. Engine runs very well and does not use or leak any oil. I have not been able to operate it myself, except to learn how to operate it and try to get together all of the support equipment and supply of logs.
How many hours are possible for these engines with proper maintenance, if upgraded in time?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on April 22, 2017, 09:58:57 PM
Hello,
  I know of a few with lots of hours. One customer has a 2005 51 hp Cat with over 11000 hours on the meter. He did replace the head gasket. I am pretty sure he did not install the crank support kit. Again that is one that I know of, and there are many more with some pretty big hours.
I dont want you to panic but be sure you are aware there are ways to keep things from happening.

Marty

Yes we ( WM)  asked the Perkins/ Cat company and the engine distributor about Serial numbers. But they said it was not their issue. So they would not admit there is or ever was an issue. We ( WM) was on our own. WM did replace many engines with new ones when they were under warranty and there was no reimbursement back to WM so it was all on customer service. Warranty has been long gone on these mills and engines. I think there was a 5 year warranty issued with these engines.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: ladylake on April 24, 2017, 08:11:50 AM
 With cranks breaking in skid loaders with no side load I'd think just a bad bunch of cranks.   Steve
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on April 24, 2017, 09:30:42 AM
Perkins Head Gasket Problem Leads to Failure
There must be a beginning serial number for these 51hp Perkins or a date that the new head gaskets were placed on these engines. There probably is a memo or e-mail or a whack of them from manufacturer, supplier, manufacturer, end manufacturer that tells the problem. I think it would have been reported to any end user as an alert. The new head gasket did not appear on the cat-Perkins motors just because! What is the date that perkins-cat was aware of this?
What I think is important, would be something sent out to all known owners explaining this problem. Had I not been a member here, I still would not know that the engine has issues that should be addressed before failure.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on April 24, 2017, 11:30:42 PM
Marty, Were some of the engines produced with the new gasket or not?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on April 25, 2017, 07:52:30 AM
Hello,
   Yes there are some engines that were assembled new with the gasket shown below. 




 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~11.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1441594301)

There will be a rivet on the back corner opposite side also.   


Here is the old style gasket.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/image~9.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1441594286)

Not much to hold together. Just a fire ring, which in the picture had blown between cylinders and some material.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: FloridaMike on April 25, 2017, 08:32:06 AM
Those cylinders look to be pretty close together!  Reminds me of the 400 small block Chevy.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on April 25, 2017, 09:32:02 AM
Marty, Thanks for the information, There are no pieces of the gasket overhanging block on my mill except for one small place.
I guess I need to add this to my list of bad news on this mill. I can not find any carbon on the oil filler cap! or telltale sign of damage. So I guess that is the good news, unless I am still being over optimistic that I do not have a permanent problem. What is the next steps in determining whether motor is damaged. Also what year or date did this first become known to WM?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on April 26, 2017, 08:44:43 PM
I guess I should take the valve cover off to see if I can spot any carbon deposits. I believe any future owners of a used 51hp cat sawmill should be given a heads up of this possible problem with the gasket.

This really affects the value of this mill or any with the problem engines. I am not convinced that all of the old gasketed cats will have this problem. Some of the FF owners are not having any problems. Possibly a bad batch of the old head gaskets could have doomed only some of these engines? I guess I have to replace the head gasket to protect my investment, even if it shows no signs of carbon. Even then I would need to document that it has no problem before it is changed.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 03, 2017, 06:44:42 PM
Talked to Barry at WM Northeast in Hannibal today.
Told me the problems he has seen are with the early perkapillars 2004 to 2006.
Mine is a 2008 so I guess I am ok.
I will still inspect for carbon deposits often tho.
On another note I am going to try to replace my pan gasket with the good old permatex red form a gasket by rotating the engine on the pivot points to see if i can get the pan off without removing the engine.
Barry said the oil pump may interfere but I am going to try.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on May 03, 2017, 09:40:27 PM
Hello,
   Never liked using permatex on the oil pan gaskets. If you get a stringer of gasket material inside and it lands inside the pan it could be an issue. The stringer will go through the oil screen and then get stuck in the crank. I have seen this on an engine and the rod was blue from lack of oil. I know they sometimes use no gasket on the pan just the permatex right from the factory. So just something to think about.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 04, 2017, 07:47:08 AM
More great advice from Marty!
Thanks
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: woodworker9 on May 04, 2017, 08:32:13 AM
I have been using Loctite red high heat gasket maker (forget the number, but I can check in the shop if you need it) on rebuilds for a while now, and love the stuff.  No worries about anything breaking loose and clogging up the works.

Stuff works great, and is excellent under high pressure, too.  My Kearney and Trecker mill was leaking everywhere like a sieve, and I used this stuff when I rebuilt it.  No leaks anywhere now.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on May 04, 2017, 12:02:02 PM
Talked to Indy to try to find a period of time that the problems ended.
I do not know what to do for sure. I guess I will have someone remove valve
cover and inspect for signs of future problems. I know my mill was produced
and left factory on 7-24-06. It has a serial number on the engine of
G7 M 00685 and an arraignment code of 216-6386. I do not know how to read
either of these at this time. It is the engine that came with mill. This is one
thing i did not want to track down after purchasing.
Serial Number and arrangement should tell the story.

Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Davek603 on May 04, 2017, 02:19:31 PM
I have been a mechanic all my life and own a garage. If you have to use a form a gasket I strongly recommend you use "the right stuff" I have not found another that was even close in quality. We buy it in the small caulking gun tubes. I have several friends, one who is a heavy duty road mechanic who have tried it and swear by it now as well.
Obviously a real gasket is my first choice but many applications now don't use them.
Good luck!
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 04, 2017, 06:15:03 PM
Thanks everybody
My friend who is knowledgeable and who  we call dickopedia says the red stuff is great.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on May 04, 2017, 10:00:21 PM
Are the pan gaskets unavailable?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Deese on May 18, 2017, 09:59:13 AM
I just now ordered the crank support kit for mine. Woodmizer is currently out of stock, so it will be a short (hopefully) while before it arrives.

I got new air filter(s) delivered yesterday and went to change it....
Something was a little off  ???
No big deal, they are sending the correct one right away.

I was just told that my year 2004 didn't use the 2-filter system, just the one, shorter one.
So anyways...it's on the way.


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33361/airfilter.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495115213)
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Magicman on May 18, 2017, 07:22:28 PM
Probably the same air filter that my John Deere uses.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: paul case on May 18, 2017, 10:23:54 PM
Quote from: Magicman on May 18, 2017, 07:22:28 PM
Probably the same air filter that my John Deere uses.

Or my Case 580 or my IH 966 or 1086, Nissan 60, or clark 6000 pound forklifts all have a filter similiar to the shorter one with the air fins on it.

PC
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on May 07, 2018, 08:47:29 PM
Hello,
Repeat . Head Gasket Monday.

Just a reminder. There was nothing that showed that this engine had an issue. Owner purchased the mill and said what do you think.

Well it looks like it has the first design head gasket and no crank support.

So here is what we found.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/8E2264E2-2D49-494C-B6DE-C9DF056F511D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1525740320)




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/CF90827D-3408-441D-81F0-307BE2A009CC.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1525740047)
 
This engine had a new water pump and a temp gauge installed in the thermostat housing. Owner did not have any history about the engine.


The antifreeze was also brown and looked not so good.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11823/5F0512C6-DC59-4F59-A8E7-F50C4815E0C2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1525740074)

 

This is a 2004 LT40 Super with the 51 hp Cat Perkins 1400 hours. 

Hope this helps.

Marty

Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 08, 2018, 07:38:34 AM
Well here is this perkapillar thread again.
Timely for me.
Got lazy and didnt fix the leaking pan problem when I was down for the winter.
A couple of days ago oil started dripping on the boards from a leak in the drive side of the pan. Tried tightening the bolts which was a nightmare and it got worse.
temporary fix is rags stuffed in the space there to catch the oil while I finish a small job today.
Guess I will be down for a period of time now to finally address this issue and check on the head gasket thing too.
I had the support kit installed last year.
My neighbor has over 4000 hrs on his 51 engine with no problems of any mechanical kind with the engine, no support kit.
No anti perkapillar rant this time but it has crossed my mind often.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: slider on May 09, 2018, 06:21:02 PM
Marty that one failed in a lifter gallery just like mine . When i pulled the pan to move the bung to the bottom of the pan , where it should have been to start with i found lots of gunk . I am so glad that i took the time to pull that pan and look.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on May 09, 2018, 10:46:04 PM
Hello,
    Yes taking off the oil pan may be a great idea. This engine also has black sawdust along the injector side of the pan. It will get a gasket also.

I had a time to get the alternator belt to align and the belt tensioner. Another note. The alternator tensioner will look fine until you run the engine. I always check this and take measures. Just about every one I shim the alternator pulley out about 1/16". On this engine I shimmed the bracket out with two 3/8 washers to get the belt to go where it should. I will get some pictures.

I called the owner, he said the person who he purchased the mill from had a small leak in the radiator and had added stop leak. ::) As much money as it takes to replace and engine I would refrain from using stop leak.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 10, 2018, 07:05:25 AM
Today's the day.
Brought the mill down from the mill site yesterday and pressure washed the whole shebang.
Was able to shine sunlight in with a mirror and thank goodness all was dry below the crankshaft, so it is definitely the oil pan gasket.
Wish I had done this before I had the brg support installed.
my friend and my son are coming to do the work while I hand them wrenches and run other errands.
Tried Perkins for the gasket but couldn't decipher their web site and there was no phone # on it.
Then tried Foley engine, the guy was very friendly and called me back in about an hr informing that the individual gaskets were no longer available from Perkins, but would gladly sell me a kit for about $250 bucks.
Then Eureka! I called Milton Cat in Syracuse and they had the gasket for 20 bucks.
To be continued.
Wish me luck


Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 10, 2018, 07:33:59 AM
Forgot to mention WM doesnt carry parts for the perkapillar according to WM northeast
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 10, 2018, 06:23:20 PM
SUCCESS!!
My pal Dickopedia, my son and I removed the engine in 3 Hrs not ever having done it before so we were really careful thanks to my friend Dick.
I took lots of pics so we could re install the wiring and fuel lines etc.
Couldnt believe how easy it was except the bearing from the brg support kit took a little finegeling to remove but came off OK .
Got it done at about 3;30PM.
Put a lot of the old fashioned permatex form a gasket on the pan , gasket and block.
Super glad I put a 1100 pound hoist on a beam in my shop last winter.
Wont put oil in until Monday AM to be sure that the permarex cures.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18633/IMG_0327.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1525990958)
 
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Magicman on May 10, 2018, 06:47:33 PM
Friends and Sons are better than whatever is in second place.  ;D
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 10, 2018, 06:48:51 PM
Lynn so true!
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: Peter Drouin on May 11, 2018, 06:02:53 AM
Good job.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 11, 2018, 08:05:11 AM
It initially looked like more than we wanted to tackle but once started was a cinch.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: hunz on May 11, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
Thanks to Marty and this thread, I decided to replace my head gasket as a preventative measure. My 51hp perkapillar wasn't showing any signs, whatsoever, of it being blown. Well......it WAS blown in between two cylinders! Sure glad I decided to do it, otherwise it may have been a piece of scrap metal in the near future. My engine is a 2006, and has 3,300hrs on it. Maintenance has been done religiously, oil changes, air filter, fuel filter every 100hrs. About 6 months back, I popped the oil fill cap to see if I noticed any carbon deposits. At the time I saw none partly because the deposit was at the far end of the valve cover where I couldn't see.
  My recommendation to anyone with this engine with the old style head gasket is this... Just replace it, and save yourself buying a new engine. 90% chance it's blown based on my hillbilly statistical analyses.

Anyone ever find out if you can drop the oil pan without removing the engine?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on May 12, 2018, 06:50:52 AM
Hello,
   You will need to raise the engine to remove the oil pan. It is not a big job "  No Fear" lifting the engine will be the biggest challenge.

I hope this helps. Like you said if there are no signs of the gasket being blown when it fails it damages the engine most times it is not repairable .

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on May 12, 2018, 08:48:46 AM
The oil pickup tube and screen hangs well down in the pan about 2/3 of the way toward the fan end, (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18633/IMG_0328.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1526129078)

(see the very poor pic) but I doubt you can do it without either removing the engine as we did or just raising it as Marty suggests, plus we didnt trust my hoist completely so removed it and put saw horses under the engine in addition to the hoist.
We decided to remove it as werent sure there was enough slack in the various wires to get the engine high enough to work on.
Another thing, the cat manual that came with the mill indicates 10.3 qts of oil, but this way overfilled the engine.
I use 8qts.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: hunz on May 13, 2018, 10:51:47 PM
Well thanks for the feedback guys, I cranked it up today(haven't dropped the pan yet) just to make sure everything was working right, with no leaks.
  Pete, yup, I've discovered the 8 quarts to fill as well. The fluid capacity in the WM manual is just a few quarts off haha.
  Marty you mention most times the engine can't be repaired....do you mean scored pistons or warped head? I checked my cylinder head per the service manual with the feeler gauge and straight edge, and everything checked out. The cylinder bores still had the cross hatching too. One thing I did notice, is that the engine pops off quicker on start up, so I definitely think that bad gasket was robbing me of compression.
  So on the pickup tube, am I basically just looking to make sure it's not all clogged up with carbon? Did you guys pull it, brake clean it, and reinstall? Thanks.
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on May 14, 2018, 07:45:20 AM
Hello,
  There are two different oil pans. The 62 hp is 11 qt and the 51 hp is 8 qt.

Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: ShowMeSawyer on May 21, 2018, 03:23:17 PM
Does the head gasket for the 51 hp Cat come as a set or by itself? Any one have the part number handy for the gasket? My WM with the 51 hp Cat is a 2005 model.

Thanks,
SMS
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on May 21, 2018, 04:27:15 PM
Hello, 
    I have never purchased a Gasket Set. It always comes as one head gasket. The other gaskets or o - rings can be reused. 
Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on September 30, 2018, 06:27:56 AM
I have decided to replace the head gasket on our 2005, 1400 hr machine. I did saw a few logs, but could not forget the head problem. I had promised to saw for a friend some logs he had brought before I knew of this problem. I did buy the complete gasket set.
  I am planning on lifting the motor to inspect the oil pump and replace gasket. 
This being a cat-perkins motor is the confusing part about getting the proper manual. I found the gasket set on maxi-force and ordered from dealer. Its listed under the cat section 3024c. The manual I downloaded is for a 3024C Engine for Caterpillar Built Machines. What is the proper shop manual to use for the torques, valves etc.?
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: slider on September 30, 2018, 07:47:12 AM
Huntz , i was just thinking of how much carbon you found when you pulled the head. 

Mine failed at the lifter bore and it was so bad i had trouble getting the push rod out. That's why i pulled the pan . It meant pulling the engine but it was a good thing i did. check out reply#34.

This may not be the case with you i hope. Also moving that drain bung to the center of the pan allowed me to drain all the oil instead of leaving over 2 quarts in the pan after each service was worth it for me. Good luck. al
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on October 02, 2018, 06:11:11 AM
Marty,or any of you have went thru this ordeal. Are there any special tools or correct way to remove injectors from head?
Also,I plan on taking a picture of old head gasket to show condition.If it has not failed between the cylinders like so many of theses motors have, there is no reason to remove pan gasket?
If there is some carbon or failure of gasket how is the carbon safely removed?I have the procedure from book to inspect oil pump. Thanks
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: MartyParsons on October 05, 2018, 10:02:25 PM
Hello 
Nothing special for tools to remove injectors. You may need to use a propane torch to heat the paint on the nut holding the return tube . The fitting at the injectors are very fragile and the nut will stick to the tube and bend . 

I do remove the oil pan if nessary . Judgement call. 
Marty
Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: jaciausa on October 06, 2018, 04:37:47 PM
Hello, Thanks for the advice on the lines to the injectors. We have disassembled and got this back together. Need to change coolant and it is about ready to start. The head gasket had not failed and there was no carbon present in the head or valve cover. 
With no carbon and the head gasket intake I think pulling the pan would not be needed! I was not looking forward to raising or removing the engine. We dide have some building scaffold we placed around the engine so we could be at the best height.
 The Cat manual talked about a tool-A for the injectors. This was really a sealant that is used around the injector. We did find a non setting Loctite that is possibly the same. Hopefully we can get it running tomorrow and put this nightmare behind us.

Title: Re: Cat 51 hp. Headless cat
Post by: slider on October 06, 2018, 05:09:17 PM
Not a nightmare any more just preventive maintenance . now you can sleep well . 

Thanks again to marty for starting this thread . It probably saved my cat.