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General Forestry => Timber Framing/Log construction => Topic started by: jimdad07 on August 04, 2015, 11:46:10 PM

Title: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 04, 2015, 11:46:10 PM
I started a thread a couple of months back about a 30'x50' frame I wanted to build.  I was all over the place with design ideas and timber sizing.  I sat down over the last couple on months and rethought the whole building and my needs vs. wants.
This past weekend I broke ground for the new barn.  I am in the process of tracking down a load of white pine logs, I might have to wait for the logs until early winter.  I'm fine with that because I like working out in the winter and it's easier on my saws for milling when it's cold.  The concrete trucks stop running here in late September so I have to have the pad down before then.
I'm going with a 28'x50', with a full length loft for my wood shop as well as a dormer on each side that will be framed in between the main rafters.  There will be four bays with five bents, 10"x10" posts, the tie beams supporting the loft floor framing will be 10"x16" beams with the widest span being 16'.  I figured my floor load for the loft at 80psf.   I'll post the rest of numbers for the whole shooting match as well as pictures of the progress as I go.  I'll also post my building plans.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 05, 2015, 11:08:48 AM
Here are my progress pics.  Batter boards went up first, strings moved until my 6,8,10 measurements were dead on for square.  Broke ground with my Gravely using a rotary plow and then my scraper blade.  That's my buddy John hogging the equipment.  Hopefully I'll be ready for gravel by early next week, still have to dig out for my water line.  Going to make a small heated space under my stairs for a pressure tank and drainage valves to run a line from my spare well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0801151635.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 05, 2015, 11:26:35 AM
I'll have to try the photos when I get home, not working out.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 05, 2015, 11:53:53 AM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0801151729.jpg)(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0801151729.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 05, 2015, 11:55:14 AM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0801152040~0.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: MattJ on August 05, 2015, 05:28:42 PM
This will be fun to watch.  Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 05, 2015, 11:00:19 PM
Working in the firewood pile tonight, rained too hard to do any haying or sight work for the barn.  Anyhow, I got quite a few white ash logs in this load of firewood logs.  So as I was splitting wood tonight I split up a bunch of peg blanks out of the white ash rounds.  I cheated and used the wood splitter.  I'll split them off into 1.5" and 2.5" squares with a hatchet and shape them with a block plane.  Figure I'll be shaping a lot of pegs throughout this project.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Carpenter on August 06, 2015, 01:27:47 AM
Quote from: MattJ on August 05, 2015, 05:28:42 PM
This will be fun to watch.  Thanks for sharing!

X2

Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: witterbound on August 06, 2015, 08:30:43 AM
Make you pegs with a jig on a table saw, or use a spoke shave on a shaving horse.  You'll find info about both techniques in older posts.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: rasman57 on August 06, 2015, 08:51:12 AM
Quote from: Carpenter on August 06, 2015, 01:27:47 AM
Quote from: MattJ on August 05, 2015, 05:28:42 PM
This will be fun to watch.  Thanks for sharing!

X2

X3 !
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 06, 2015, 10:39:51 AM
Ordered chisels yesterday.  Bought a 2" Henry Taylor firmer chisel, a 1-1/2" Henry Taylor firmer chisel and a 1" corner chisel.  They be pretty proud of their product but they should last for a long time if taken care of.  They also come with the leather tip protectors.see
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 06, 2015, 11:13:04 PM
Working on my dig still, slow going with a scraper blade but working well.  I made rippers for the blade with 1/2" rebar and some 2" angle iron I had kicking around.  Drilled and tapped bolt holes into the scraper blade and boy did that make working this clay a lot easier.  I'm down about a foot below grade on the high end and about 8" on the low end.  Now I'm just digging the haunches out around the outside and hopefully be building forms this weekend and bringing gravel in by Monday.  Been working on it until about midnight every night with lights on the tractor.  Be glad when the ground work is finished.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: witterbound on August 07, 2015, 06:40:28 AM
Is this going to have a full concrete floor?  If so, are you adding footers below each post location?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 07, 2015, 07:16:12 AM
Quote from: witterbound on August 07, 2015, 06:40:28 AM
Is this going to have a full concrete floor?  If so, are you adding footers below each post location?
Yes to fill concrete floor.  I am pouring a 12"x12" haunch all the way around and one down the middle under my center posts.  I'm getting 4,000# psi concrete from my local concrete place, the slab will be on 12" of crush and run and hard pan clay under the crush and run.  Also the haunches will be heavy with rebar and the rest of the pad will have the 6x6 mesh.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 07, 2015, 12:19:13 PM
Quote from: witterbound on August 07, 2015, 06:40:28 AM
Is this going to have a full concrete floor?  If so, are you adding footers below each post location?

You had me questioning myself on my slab.  I just ran some numbers on my lunch break and figured how much load my concrete can handle.  With the combined loads from roof to floor on each post I'll have roughly 14,000#'s that the slab has to support at each outside post.  Figure each post is 100 square inches on the floor that's 140psi.  My concrete is going to be 4,000 psi, which if I did my math right should handle 400,000#'s in a 100 square inch area.  I think the main concern is the slab fracturing from shifting more so than handling the weight of the building, especially from weight that is not distributed evenly around the whole perimeter.  The best thing I have going for me is the hard pan clay under the gravel.  The only better option I could have had was if it was solid bed rock.  This clay up here is so packed that there is extremely little shifting or compaction.  I feel fairly confident in the slab working out.  I built my house on a monolithic slab about 9 years ago and she hasn't moved a bit nor has it cracked.  If I'm wrong in my thinking I am certainly open to ideas and suggestions.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: beenthere on August 07, 2015, 01:40:05 PM
Your clay must be different than what we have. If clay, the frost will cause it to expand several inches which creates problems when it doesn't all expand at the same rate or amount. Often will go to what is called a floating slab to roll with the moving frozen ground.
But it can be solid as concrete when somewhat dry, or like sticky mud when wet.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 07, 2015, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: beenthere on August 07, 2015, 01:40:05 PM
Your clay must be different than what we have. If clay, the frost will cause it to expand several inches which creates problems when it doesn't all expand at the same rate or amount. Often will go to what is called a floating slab to roll with the moving frozen ground.
But it can be solid as concrete when somewhat dry, or like sticky mud when wet.

I could be wrong with my thinking on it, I was going by the buildings I have put up and what's around me.  I know if it gets loosened up it turns to baby crap in a hurry.  A floating monolithic slab was my plan for the building.  Hopefully I can make it work for me, I would love to pour frost walls but I'm on a very tight budget on this project.  I would also love to just buy my posts and beams but I'm stuck milling them, it won't save me any time but it'll save me a lot of cash.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 08, 2015, 12:07:55 AM
Ready for gravel!  I talked to some builders I know tonight, one of them a friend of mine up in Bar Harbor Maine area who gets into some timber framing from time to time, real good guy who's built a good business for himself.  Anyway, I ran my slab dimensions by him and my figures for the building weight and he told me it should be fine.  That was the consensus among the four I talked to tonight.  I'm going to run with it and hope for the best.  Hopefully by next weekend I'll have some concrete form pictures posted for you guys complete with rebar and gravel.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 09, 2015, 10:54:29 PM
Had more trouble today laying out my first side of my concrete forms than I've ever had.  The transit I was using just didn't want to adjust.  It had me almost a 1/2" low at 50'.  I finally stopped screwing around with it and ran a pair of string line levels side by side and stretched the lines until they about cut my hands.  Set one up on each end with a 2" block and set all the form sections to 2" below the strings.  Big difference.  I'm going to check it all with a water level once the forms are all built and then it'll be time for gravel.  Trying to get this slab as close to perfect as possible, paying extreme attention to where the posts will be sitting.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 12, 2015, 07:34:10 AM
My new chisels arrived yesterday.  They are pretty nice.  I will have to hone the corner chisel, one side is nice and sharp but the other is pretty dull.  The two firmer chisels shaved hair off of my arm, I think they'll do.  Hopefully I'm finally figuring the picture posting out to where it's getting easier.  The early stages of this build are kind of boring to watch but I'll keep documenting them so the thread covers the build from start to finish.  Gravel is coming today while I'm at work, that'll keep me busy for a few evenings.  Once concrete is down I'll be into the fun stuff.  I still have to figure brace sizing and all of that good stuff as well as some of the joinery, but I'll get into that as the build progresses.  But after concrete the mill is getting set up on the slab and then I'll be sawing logs.  My poor chainsaw mill is about to earn its keep.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0811151816.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 14, 2015, 01:28:39 PM
I have few questions on sizing bracing as well as collar ties.  I want as much bracing as possible in my frame.  I have a pretty heavy wind load where I live off of the end of Lake Ontario.  Are there any rules of thumb for sizing braces?  I would also like to have my second floor wood shop open but if I do so it will eliminate purlin plates and queen posts supporting the roof.  I have sized my rafters to handle a total load of 64 psf, which will have my non gable rafters supporting a total load of 13,446#'s based on my tributary area on each of those rafters.  That gives me a 8x10 EWP with just under a 1/2" deflection based on the loads.  A 7x9 rafter also passed but it has a deflection of .7+".  I guess my question would be how well would collar ties fight thrust at the top plates vs. purlin plates.  I am using an 8/12 pitch for gable end bays and a 5/12 pitch for dormers that will be over the two middle bays.  Hope I explained it clearly enough.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on August 14, 2015, 08:17:09 PM
First of all a collar beam will only reduce the rafter thrust if it is within 12" above the rafter foot at the plate.
In any other elevation the collar beam is in compression, that is preventing the rafters from sagging.

You can make the braces any size you want.
Normally larger braces are 4x6 but you can make them 4x7 or 4x8 if you wish. Even 6x6 if you want to, you just need to lay them out right and cut them so that the fit tight. Always in pairs, so that they are opposing.

The rest of your question are best answered by an experienced timber framing structural engineer.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 14, 2015, 11:20:46 PM
Thanks Jim, that's what I wanted to know.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 17, 2015, 09:38:30 AM
Pouring concrete this weekend and my logs are close to being delivered.  Can't wait for the concrete to be finished. Then I can get excited.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 22, 2015, 03:03:44 PM
Still waiting on logs.  The logger I'm dealing with is into a patch of white pine that he's setting aside logs that are going to fit the bill.  He's bringing me 20' logs that I will be able to cut my 10"x16" tie beams out of.  Should be enough on the load for my bents and girts.  I have three 30" diameter pines out back in the woods that are blown half way down with good 30' of clear stem to the first branches.  Hopefully I can get some rafters out of those.  Going crazy waiting and reading old threads, ready to start doing!  Making redundant posts just isn't cutting it.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 24, 2015, 02:28:59 PM
I know you guys are probably about tired of reading the redundant posting so I wanted to ask some joinery questions starting with my first floor framing.  I am in the phase of designing my joinery and I have a good idea of what I want to do after several hours of reading old posts, etc.

1:  I'll start with my tie beams as they will be the most complicated for me.
-my tie beams are 10"x16" EWP.  I have read several posts about cutting my tenons at 1/4 the width of the beam.  This would put me at a tenon 2.5"x16".  Keep in mind that I plan to cut a shoulder in the bottom of the joint at 3/4" going to 0" by the time I get to the top of the joint in the 10"x10" post.  Is it acceptable to use a 2" tenon for this joint?  Also I would like to make this a through tenon so I can maitain plenty of relish with the amount of tension on the joint.  I would also like to double peg this joint with ash pegs that are 1.5" diameter.
- next are the scarf joints for the tie beams.  I am interested in using a stop splayed scarf joint with ash wedges with the joint being supported by a knee brace and not the post.  If I am understanding my building loads right this joint will be in high tension due to rafter thrust at the top plates.  Is there a better option for this joint that a newb like I can understand? Am I also right in assuming that a beam with a depth of 16" will need a scarf joint at 64" in length?
- next question: stub tenons connecting my center posts to my tie beams.  Does the same rule apply to sizing stub tenons as regular tendons?  Also what is a good height for the tenon on a 10"x10" post tying into a 10"x16" tie beam?  Also I want to recess the post into the tie beam a 1/2".

Plenty more questions to follow.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dave Shepard on September 24, 2015, 03:24:35 PM
I would use 2"/2" joinery, unless engineering dictated otherwise. When you try to cut joints without chisels and drill bits the exact size, efficiency goes out the window.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Brian_Weekley on September 24, 2015, 04:12:09 PM
Hi Jim,  Do you have a drawing you can post of your building?  Sorry, I'm thinking you may be using incorrect terms for the timbers you're describing.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: beenthere on September 24, 2015, 05:48:13 PM
Did you ever do the pour on the slab? Saw pics of removing dirt and wondered....

Or is it awaiting the posts first? and thus on the design...
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 24, 2015, 05:56:50 PM
Quote from: Brian_Weekley on September 24, 2015, 04:12:09 PM
Hi Jim,  Do you have a drawing you can post of your building?  Sorry, I'm thinking you may be using incorrect terms for the timbers you're describing.

I have to make them to scale and take a picture of them to post.  When I say tie beam I mean the beam that spans from one wall to the other and supports the second floor.  The posts I'm referring to are the upright posts that will support under the tie beam as well as the posts that will make up the outside walls and carry the top plate.  You'll have to forgive me, I'm just trying to learn everything I can before I finalize the joinery and make sure I'm not missing any steps in the process.  I figured the better game plan I have the better my barn will come out.  I really need to have an engineer examine my drawings but money is a very large issue right now with the farm and breakdowns this summer sucking my barn fund down to just enough for one load of logs and the concrete we poured last weekend.  That's why I'm asking so many questions and running so many numbers.  I will probably be over engineered but that's much better than being the other way.  Your patience and responses are appreciated.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 24, 2015, 06:07:02 PM
Quote from: beenthere on September 24, 2015, 05:48:13 PM
Did you ever do the pour on the slab? Saw pics of removing dirt and wondered....

Or is it awaiting the posts first? and thus on the design...

Slab is poured, barely beat the rain and covered the concrete right in time.  I know the footprint I want and the design is pretty firm in my head as well as the sizes of the timbers.  I have a rough print drawn up but I don't want to finalize it until I have the joinery figured out.  I have to sit down and post the pics.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on September 24, 2015, 06:14:05 PM
Jim,

When I designed my cabin (doing the foundation now), I downloaded a free version of SketchUp.  Quite a learning curve but once mastered, you can draw up just about anything really fast.  It has add-ons that will help with the joints later on in the process.  I did the load calcs (with the help of the Tool Box on the left, bottom).  Then I worked with Fire Tower Engineered Timber, Inc - recommended by a few here.  They were VERY flexible.  I maintained control of my plans making changes that they requested/required, saving myself a lot of money on a draftsman or their time to do the changes.  I eventually had to buy a version of SketchUp to get Layout, which turns your 3D model into normal architectural plans that you annotate and can submit to your building department (if a permit is required).

SketchUp then will generate the shop drawings you need for doing all your joint cuts - all you do is add the dimensions by using the tape measure in the program.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 24, 2015, 06:23:28 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on September 24, 2015, 06:14:05 PM
Jim,

When I designed my cabin (doing the foundation now), I downloaded a free version of SketchUp.  Quite a learning curve but once mastered, you can draw up just about anything really fast.  It has add-ons that will help with the joints later on in the process.  I did the load calcs (with the help of the Tool Box on the left, bottom).  Then I worked with Fire Tower Engineered Timber, Inc - recommended by a few here.  They were VERY flexible.  I maintained control of my plans making changes that they requested/required, saving myself a lot of money on a draftsman or their time to do the changes.  I eventually had to buy a version of SketchUp to get Layout, which turns your 3D model into normal architectural plans that you annotate and can submit to your building department (if a permit is required).

SketchUp then will generate the shop drawings you need for doing all your joint cuts - all you do is add the dimensions by using the tape measure in the program.

The toolbox here is excellent.  I ran all of my post and beam sizes as well as figured the rafters with it.  I made notes of all the calcs so I can post them here when the plan is 100% set.  In a previous life I took four years of architectural drafting and mechanical drafting so I have a decent if not rusty handle on that end of it.  Go figure I ended up in construction and finally into industrial HVAC for the past ten years.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 24, 2015, 06:28:23 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on September 24, 2015, 06:14:05 PM
Jim,

When I designed my cabin (doing the foundation now), I downloaded a free version of SketchUp.  Quite a learning curve but once mastered, you can draw up just about anything really fast.  It has add-ons that will help with the joints later on in the process.  I did the load calcs (with the help of the Tool Box on the left, bottom).  Then I worked with Fire Tower Engineered Timber, Inc - recommended by a few here.  They were VERY flexible.  I maintained control of my plans making changes that they requested/required, saving myself a lot of money on a draftsman or their time to do the changes.  I eventually had to buy a version of SketchUp to get Layout, which turns your 3D model into normal architectural plans that you annotate and can submit to your building department (if a permit is required).

SketchUp then will generate the shop drawings you need for doing all your joint cuts - all you do is add the dimensions by using the tape measure in the program.

BTW, I've been paying attention to your build, quite a site you have there.  It's going to be a perfect setting for your cabin.  The amount of rock you have there looks like a good time for working around them!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 24, 2015, 09:54:44 PM
Guess I better put some figures down as I work towards the final draft.

Barn size: 28'x50'
Number of bents: 5
Bays: 4
First floor ceiling height to bottom of tie beams: 12'
Total roof load: 64psf
Total 2nd floor: 80psf
Roof pitch: 8/12 at gable end bays
                -5/12 over the middle bays, reasoning is for more usable space for my wood shop.
When I say bays for the roof pitch I'm putting the tributary areas in between the rafters in relation to the bays on the first floor.  I am planning a rafter and purlin roof system, with the rafters lining up with the posts over the outer walls of the barn.

That being said I ran my load numbers through the forum toolbox using the beam and stringer calculator.

Starting with the roof:
Rafters passed all tests with a 8"x10" EWP giving me 0.4" deflection over the span
Purlins that pass are 5"x8" EWP
-planning a T and F joint where the rafters meet at the roof ridge with a single peg
-want to install the purlins in pockets in the rafters and secure with timberlocs (I know that's cheating)
-the tails of the rafters is something I'm undecided on.  I plan on cutting rafter seats into the top plates but am not sure on how I want to work the tails for the eaves of the barn
I ran these numbers for the rafters as if there aren't any purlin plates and queen posts supporting at mid span, my span is 14' measuring from the roof ridge to the outside wall.  A concern of mine is rafter thrust at the top plates if I don't use a purlin plate system.  That concern is battling with the desire for an open second floor.  I will have to go with the safest building practice on this one and most likely use a purlin plate and queen post system.  The other design consideration for a purlin plate and queen post is I will only have one post off center supporting the tie beams and will not be able to carry the load directly to the footers below the first floor posts. 

I'll get into the first floor loads and sizing in the next installment.  Sorry if this is confusing and my terminology probably sucks, but if you guys can decipher what I'm trying to say it would be a help.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 26, 2015, 08:14:54 AM
Good news, turns out there's a FF. Member less than five miles from my house who has cut and built his own frame.  The guy makes wooden boats to boot.  Going to meet up with him next week and pick his brain.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on October 01, 2015, 06:51:26 PM
Good news for me today, my logs are getting dropped tomorrow night.  I also broke down and will be picking up my band mill next Friday.  Must have been smoking something when I thought I could mill out this frame with my chainsaw.  Figured out my cost just for lumber and I'll still save close to $1000 after buying a brand new band mill.  Very excited about it all.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 02, 2015, 10:01:52 PM
First tie beam is cut.  It is 10"x16"x21' long.  Nine more of these to go and then onto posts.  It's been slow going with all of the winter prep going on but I now have a start.  Let me know if the pics are sideways, been editing and rotating them trying to get them to show up right on the full site.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1102152023.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1102152011.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: beenthere on November 02, 2015, 11:35:42 PM
Not sideways.. so you are gaining on it.

But put some lines or blanks to separate the pics... helps. Don't get discouraged... we do like pics.  8)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 02, 2015, 11:51:50 PM
Quote from: beenthere on November 02, 2015, 11:35:42 PM
Not sideways.. so you are gaining on it.

But put some lines or blanks to separate the pics... helps. Don't get discouraged... we do like pics.  8)

I'm working on it! I put spaces in the post, I'll try some more.  I'm on a few forums for milling and chainsaws and this one has got to be the worst for posting pics.  I'm spoiled by Tapatalk, start a post, snap a picture and it's automatically put in the post.  Very much enjoying my sawmill, it's sitting on the barn slab.  Glad I bought the extra couple sections of track with the mill, these are long timbers.  I wasn't prepared for the size of the beam.  I rolled it with a peevee after the last cut.  Now I'm not a small and out of shape guy at 6'2" and 212#'s, but I'm pretty sure I lost a nut turning that beam after I was done cutting it!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: beenthere on November 03, 2015, 01:19:57 AM
FYI
Don't badmouth our pic posting... not good to do that...  ;D

You will find this is not like other Forums in many ways... and this is a good one (not saying anything about the others.. ).

Spaces between your images... and some verbage isn't hard to do.  ;)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 03, 2015, 07:02:03 AM
Quote from: beenthere on November 03, 2015, 01:19:57 AM
FYI
Don't badmouth our pic posting... not good to do that...  ;D

You will find this is not like other Forums in many ways... and this is a good one (not saying anything about the others.. ).

Spaces between your images... and some verbage isn't hard to do.  ;)

I joined this board about four years ago and have been lurking more than anything.  I can see this one is different, lot less pretending on this site compared to some others with good knowledgeable members.  People don't jump down your throat on this board for asking questions, might not be much response but there is a level of respect for each other that is good.











PS.
I just love the picture posting process on here!  It's great!  Wouldn't change a thing!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 12:51:55 AM
Hoping you guys can help me out designing my scarf joints for my tie beams.  My beams are 10"x16", I was figuring on a joint 64" long using Sobon's general rule of thumb.  I want the best joint I can get but also one I can handle figuring out and cutting being new to this.  The joint I was settling on is a stop splayed, under squinted and wedged joint.  Anybody have some pointers and general rules for these joints?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 07, 2015, 07:38:10 AM
The key is to make each layout and cutting from the same pattern.

I did several this way and it worked for me.

To start you layout each location of a point along the top surface. And each location of the same point down from the top surface.
Then you connect the points with straight lines.

Here is a drawing to show you what I mean.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/Scarf_drawing_with_new_dimensions.JPG)

To practice this layout take a board the same width as your timber. In my example I am using a 8" wide board:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF0033.JPG)

next layout the points along the top edge:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF0034.JPG)

Next down from the top:


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF0035~0.JPG)

Project where these lines cross to make the points:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF0036~0.JPG)

Then connect the points



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF0037~1.JPG)

If you are doing the top side then the bottom side is waste. If you are doing the bottom side then the top side is waste.
You may want to only make the spot in the middle for the wedges only 1 1/2" wide instead of 2" as I have drawn.

Here is a finished view:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/SCARF_PICTURE.JPG)

Practice your layout and then do it for real on your timbers.
Good luck with your project and let us know how you make out.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 08:13:58 AM
Thanks Jim, that's exactly what I was looking for.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 07, 2015, 09:10:34 AM
Jimdad07:
The idea is that the top is the reference face. The outside face is the adjacent face. The edge where these two faces meet is the "arris" and it is where all the dimensions are pulled from.
If the bottom two surfaces don't line up, so be it.
That is where the variability of the timber goes.
Always "x" out your waste side and then cut and leave the lines. You can always trim off later when fitting up. Adding shims looks like you didn't do it right.

I always cut the two scarfs and put the two pieces together to make one long piece before I layout anything else on the timbers. That way if you make a mistake and have to move over and do it all again you'll have enough timber left on the other end. Use a very good long straight edge to layout your long scarf lines.

When fitting up to check the joint, put them together as much as you can and then insert your two wedges. Pound them in from both sides at the same time to suck it up to the under squinted butts. Check the top surface to be flush from one to the other. And if it isn't trim a little to make it so.

I mark "witness lines" across the joint when it is pulled up and correct so that when I take it apart to move it to the frame site I can put it back together again and I'll be sure that it is in the correct spot.

I secure it with several timberlok screws as well as wedges and or pegs.
I don't usually try and draw bore it.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 07, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
For one barn addition I did we had to make up a 56' plate. We had three scarfs in this plate.
Here is the first one:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF3666.JPG)

And the second one:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF3667.JPG)

And the last one:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF3668.JPG)

So I had a lot of practice doing these.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 09:28:59 AM
It looks to me that the depth of the undersquint is a 1/4 of the beam depth, yours is 2" and your beam is 8".  So if that is the rule then my undersquint will have a depth of 4" on a 16" beam.  Is my thinking correct?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 09:45:58 AM
Jim those came out nice in that barn.  I read a post of yours over in the tfguild on those particular joints and the explanation of why they were used.  I have  nine scarf joints to cut for this barn.  Should be good at it by the end.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 07, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 09:28:59 AM
It looks to me that the depth of the undersquint is a 1/4 of the beam depth, yours is 2" and your beam is 8".  So if that is the rule then my undersquint will have a depth of 4" on a 16" beam.  Is my thinking correct?

You could try it and see how it looks. If it looks proportional then maybe. I don't know for sure what the rule on that is.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 03:37:35 PM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on November 07, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 09:28:59 AM
It looks to me that the depth of the undersquint is a 1/4 of the beam depth, yours is 2" and your beam is 8".  So if that is the rule then my undersquint will have a depth of 4" on a 16" beam.  Is my thinking correct?

You could try it and see how it looks. If it looks proportional then maybe. I don't know for sure what the rule on that is.

Jim Rogers

It is a lot of fun learning this.  Hard to do through a forum but the end result will be worth it.  With the farm and my day job it's going to take quite awhile, wish I had a block of time to go to a course but that's just not going to happen.  I appreciate you taking the time to respond, you are busy and I know how hard it is to teach people who are new, I deal with apprentices every day myself.  At least I get the benefit of being there with them.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 08, 2015, 12:00:49 PM
I laid out a 64" long scarf on a piece of aluminum flashing.  It was close but I was off by 3/16" from one undersquint to the other.  Still happy with the first try but I'm going to take Jim's example and double it.  His beams were 8", mine is 16".  Getting ready to put another tie beam log on the mill, I'll cut a 1"x16" board off of it and try it again but this time I'll make it 4' long, that first attemp was extremely long.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 09, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
I guess my question is: "why a 16" deep plate?"

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 09, 2015, 08:47:12 PM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on November 09, 2015, 11:29:36 AM
I guess my question is: "why a 16" deep plate?"

Jim Rogers

I ran all of my numbers through the load calcs for EWP figuring for an 80psf total load for the second floor of my barn.  Reason being that my wood shop will be up there and I plan to sticker green lumber in the eave spaces. I figured out what the main species of wood I deal with weigh per board foot when green and figured my loads accordingly.  It is major overkill for the most part but I want my bases covered for any eventualities.  The other reason behind the large beams is more strength fighting the tension of the thrust at the top plates against the tie beams.  I'm trying to keep my second floor open, it may not be possible to do so but I might be able to get away with it with heavier timbers.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 09, 2015, 10:47:02 PM
Think I figured out the scarf joint.  I was treating it like rocket science, had to take a step back and think it over.  Basically what I did with a 1-1/4"x16"x5' board was lay out the undersquints first, after laying out the 4' lines.  I measured down 4" from the arris  on one end and 12" down from the arris on the other end.  After getting my marks I then measured in from my 4' lines 1" and connected the dots.  Now with the undersquints layed out I connected the two undersquints with parallel lines, this gave me the layout lines for the table of the joint.  Next I found the center point of the joint and pulled an 1-1/2" from each side to layout where the wedges go.  I'll get pictures up tomorrow of the test board.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 10, 2015, 09:31:24 AM
Here is the picture as promised.  This joint is 4' long, I doubled Jim's length for the overall joint as well as doubled the depth of the undersquints and doubled the measurements to get the angle of the undersquints (measured in 1" instead of the 1/2" measurement).  As far as being proportional I think it turned out quite well.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1109152217.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 15, 2015, 12:03:45 AM
Well I have finally made a scarf joint, my first framing joints ever.  Tomorrow I try to fit them up and layout the tie beams for the first bent.  I am not pleased with the finish of the joints but I learned a few lessons to carry to the next one.
First lesson learned never use a saw all blade to cut out where the circular saw couldn't reach.  I hit a knot in the beam that made the blade dive into the cut and made a mess of cut.  The outside of the cut looks good but the inside of the cut is going to bug me.
Second lesson learned: a Japanese style pull saw is a little too flimsy for the large joints I'm cutting.  I noticed that it the middle of a wide cut bows out some because of the blade deflecting I'm the middle.  I'm going to pick up a traditional carpenters handsaw, going to see if I can get one locally that cuts on the pull stroke.
Third lesson:  I should have oriented the arris on both beams to be on the same side, I will now have to remember that they are on opposite sides when I layout the rest of the beam joints.
Tomorrow will tell if I did it right or not.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 15, 2015, 12:15:59 AM
This is the first joint I cut.  Ended up doing most of it with a chainsaw and finishing off with a 2" chisel and a hand plane.  It came out decent.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1114151713.jpg)


This is a shot of my sawhorses I made for this project.  Might make two more tomorrow to make my test fitting a little easier.  I figure if these horses can handle these big beams then I did something right with them.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1114151714.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 15, 2015, 02:03:53 PM
Fitted the first joint today, just have a little trimming to do and makes the wedges.  I used a frame I made to take the loader off of my tractor to work the beams together.  I rigged one end of the beam with my straps in a way that I could slide the joint together as I used the come along to lift one end up.  Worked great with little effort on my end to put it together.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1115151322.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1115151320a.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1115151130a.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 16, 2015, 10:33:45 AM
Looks good.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 16, 2015, 05:42:46 PM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on November 16, 2015, 10:33:45 AM
Looks good.

Jim Rogers

Thanks Jim. Your layout was perfect when I doubled it.  I decided against making a template, I think I can be a little more accurate measuring them all.  I made my wedges out of ash, drove them in from both sides and then picked one end up of the whole shootin match and wouldn't you know the joint was strong enough to pick up the whole length joined together.  Thanks again for posting the tutorial.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 16, 2015, 10:56:34 PM
I'm glad it worked out for you. And yes it is something when you join two timbers together end to end and the act as one.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 17, 2015, 06:17:03 PM
Ordered a Big Foot saw today, a regular circ saw and hand saws are taking forever on these big beams, I'll still have plenty of hand cutting to do with a 10" saw but it should make it much faster.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 23, 2015, 11:10:38 AM
My beam saw came in Saturday, tried it out yesterday, what a difference.  Cut the time in half or better on these big scarf joints plus a much better finished product.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 28, 2015, 10:56:15 PM
Slowly starting to get joinery cut, here's a shot of my first tenon as well as some joist pockets for the second floor joists.  The Big Foot I picked up was worth every penny.  Just put a new blade on it today and oh boy, what I nice cutting saw.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1128152221.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1128151824.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 30, 2015, 09:10:16 PM
Nine more of these tie beams to go.  Taking my time and enjoying it, just have to cut my brace pocket and mortice and this one is going to the sticker pile.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1130152048.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Brian_Weekley on November 30, 2015, 09:39:17 PM
Looking good, but I'd still wish you'd post a drawing of what it's going to look like.  The suspense is killing me.   :D
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 30, 2015, 09:55:55 PM
Quote from: Brian_Weekley on November 30, 2015, 09:39:17 PM
Looking good, but I'd still wish you'd post a drawing of what it's going to look like.  The suspense is killing me.   :D

Now that would take the mystery away, my fun would be over.  What would you have to look forward to with each installment?  I haven't put a plan up because it's changed quite a lot from the first set of plans.  I know exactly what I want now and how I want to do it but the design is in my head, the only thing written down at this point are my load calcs and beam sizes.  You guys probably think I'm nuts but this is how I work best.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 11, 2015, 10:28:33 AM
Finally brought the internet back into my house.  Downloaded Sketchup so hopefully I'll figure out how to use it and get some drawings up for you guys.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 22, 2015, 02:58:45 PM
Still going, five more tie beams to cut on the mill and then the next largest members will be 10x10's.  I have most of my brace stock cut and a few girts.  Figured I'll keep milling until the weather gets worse and then I'll get back to cutting joinery.  Going to run out of logs soon, saving up for the next load.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 27, 2015, 10:56:30 PM
Still plugging away on the tie beams, dodging rain but happy to have warmer weather.  Here is today's work, another beam ready for wax and the sticker pile:


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1227151422.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 15, 2016, 09:09:42 AM
Still going at it, finally started moving my tie beams inside my little shop to work on them.  I have 6 to go then I'm starting on my posts.  Going to have to get more logs soon.  I sure am enjoying this project, wish I had more time to give it but I guess it'll happen at its own pace.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: richhiway on January 17, 2016, 06:44:25 PM
really enjoy your posts. great job.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 21, 2016, 12:15:28 PM
Quote from: richhiway on January 17, 2016, 06:44:25 PM
really enjoy your posts. great job.

Thank you.  I'm not posting as much now until I move into the wall posts, right now it would be redundant to keep showing the same beams over and over.  Running low on logs and will start scrounging here pretty soon.  My chain mortiser arrived yesterday, oh happy day for sure.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on January 23, 2016, 05:41:29 AM
You doing some nice work. Your first timber build? If so, outstanding.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 23, 2016, 09:26:17 PM
Quote from: fishfighter on January 23, 2016, 05:41:29 AM
You doing some nice work. Your first timber build? If so, outstanding.

First one.  I've been lurking and reading you guys here and anything I could on it since 2011 learning whatever I can.  Finally couldn't take it any more and just had to do it.  I probably should have tried something smaller for a first project but I figured go big or go home.  Thanks for the encouragement.  I'm trying to get these tie beams out first as they are the hardest I have to do.  Over halfway there on them.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 24, 2016, 11:03:53 AM
Jim Rogers saved the day again.  I read the brace layout thread he put up a long time ago and was lucky that his example is the same sizes I'm using for this barn.  Worked out perfect.  Thanks Jim.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 24, 2016, 12:19:51 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on January 24, 2016, 11:03:53 AM
Jim Rogers saved the day again.  I read the brace layout thread he put up a long time ago and was lucky that his example is the same sizes I'm using for this barn.  Worked out perfect.  Thanks Jim.

You're welcome.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 24, 2016, 02:13:07 PM
You ought to start charging by the hour.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 24, 2016, 07:23:37 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on January 24, 2016, 02:13:07 PM
You ought to start charging by the hour.

Donate to the forum for my services. Without them we'd be no where.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 25, 2016, 11:27:57 AM
Couple more pictures for you guys.  The first one is using the chain mortiser to cut joist pockets.  Did I say how much I love this thing?  The second pic is my first set of braces fitted into the tie beam.  Again, the chain mortiser is the greatest tool ever invented.  You can see my first major goof, I layed out my brace mortice to the wrong side of the line.  I should have called it a night long before I did that joint.  I had to move the brace to the other side of the tie beam.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0124161926.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0124161545.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 25, 2016, 11:51:37 AM
Brace mortice and pocket

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0124161417.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 25, 2016, 04:53:46 PM
Here's a couple of shots of how I'm getting these big beams into my shop using a chain hoist and rollers.  Also using the chain hoist to get these on sawhorses.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0116161734.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0116161905.jpg)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: frwinks on January 26, 2016, 11:17:40 AM
that's a handsome looking scarf!!  Similar set up to how I cut my frame, one stick at a time in a 25x20 basement.  Looks great, we need more pics ;D
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 27, 2016, 10:46:18 AM
Quote from: frwinks on January 26, 2016, 11:17:40 AM
that's a handsome looking scarf!!  Similar set up to how I cut my frame, one stick at a time in a 25x20 basement.  Looks great, we need more pics ;D

I'll start putting up more pics when I get into the posts.  Right now I have five of these big tie beams left to cut, figured they all look the same.  My wife wants me to build is a new bed so I'm sacrificing some wall plates to frame a bed.  Be a nice change from these big beams.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: brendonv on January 27, 2016, 04:32:11 PM
Nice job. I chickened out on doing a big project for my first go. Now i want to build another  8)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on April 04, 2016, 09:51:01 AM
Still going up here.  Have most of my braces cut and waxed.  Started making pegs out of ash this weekend.  Just waiting on mud season to go away so I can get more logs in my mill.  Think I'm going to try cutting tenons on the mill.  Going slow but I figured that winter was going to have that effect.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on April 05, 2016, 11:12:01 PM
Question on how tight my pegs should go into the joints.  Right now I can push them into the peg hole a couple of inches but would have to pound them in after that.  I know they need to be snug but just curious as to how snug, I would hate to split tenons after all this work.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: sawmilllawyer on April 06, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Since I am just learning this stuff cannot help you out with the peg tightness. By the way what brand is that chain morticer?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on April 06, 2016, 11:07:59 PM
Quote from: sawmilllawyer on April 06, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Since I am just learning this stuff cannot help you out with the peg tightness. By the way what brand is that chain morticer?

It's a 7301 Makita, I had to buy some parts to make it work on these big beams as far as clamping goes.  It was worth every penny and then some.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: sawmilllawyer on April 07, 2016, 08:30:42 PM
 8) Thanks foe the information. Best of everything with your build.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: tburch on April 12, 2016, 02:49:38 PM
Can you explain "waxing"? 
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on April 12, 2016, 05:30:44 PM
Quote from: tburch on April 12, 2016, 02:49:38 PM
Can you explain "waxing"?

Coating all exposed end grain with a wax based paint sealer like Anchorseal.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on April 12, 2016, 11:08:42 PM
Quote from: tburch on April 12, 2016, 02:49:38 PM
Can you explain "waxing"?

I keep a coffee can of wax on the shop stove all winter long just for sealing end grain on wood I mill and now on my timbers.  I have also been coating the ends of my pegs by dunking them in the wax as a finish them off. 
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: tburch on April 13, 2016, 09:21:16 AM
OK, I'm familiar with Anchorseal and sealing log ends, but I wasn't aware that after cutting joinery, it was done again.  Makes sense though. 

Did the old timers do this too, maybe with beeswax? (Obviously not with Anchorseal...)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on April 14, 2016, 07:24:57 AM
Quote from: tburch on April 13, 2016, 09:21:16 AM
OK, I'm familiar with Anchorseal and sealing log ends, but I wasn't aware that after cutting joinery, it was done again.  Makes sense though. 

Did the old timers do this too, maybe with beeswax? (Obviously not with Anchorseal...)

I bet they did.  I know if I don't seal up the end grains quickly they start cracking, albeit very small, within a couple of days.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: ed in cny on July 04, 2016, 12:35:45 PM
Been watching this build and am hoping for an update soon.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 11, 2016, 10:21:01 AM
Been a very busy summer.  I've been in the hayfield when I'm not at my regular job.  I haven't been able to fire up the saw mill in quite a long time.  That being said, I have about three days of haying left and it's back to the barn.  Finally had my next load of logs dropped off and they are excellent.  This load will take care of all of my wall posts and hopefully my well plates.  Once those are done I'm going to stand the first floor.  I think I'm going to be on my own so I'm going to have to plan very carefully!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: plowboyswr on August 28, 2016, 08:02:02 PM
 :P popcorn_smiley ;D
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 29, 2016, 11:07:20 PM
Sure is nice to be back on the mill.  10 more 10"x10"×18' posts and wall plates to cut and the first floor of this monstrosity will be going up.  All of my braces are cut, I have a bunch of pegs cut, two more tie beams to cut joinery in and I'll be in business.  I can't wait to see this thing start to go up.  I decided I'm going to stand a 1/2 bent at a time, should work out well with scarf joints in every bent.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 17, 2016, 04:49:12 PM
Last big log of the barn project and a stack of 10x10's for wall posts:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0911161936.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1474144640)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0917161158.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1474145218)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/0917161349.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1474145317)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on October 07, 2016, 09:56:07 AM
Here's some more barn work.  There's a shot of my bent lifting contraption being used and a few shots of one of my wall posts.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1004161856.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1475848211)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1005162147.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1475848074)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1005162110.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1475848167)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1005162134.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1475848136)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on October 09, 2016, 07:39:08 AM
That some heavy timbers. Please be careful.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on October 11, 2016, 10:02:01 PM
Appreciate the concern.  I let the equipment do the heavy lifting, that's why I made that frame for the tractor.  The arms on it won't let the load slide off the front or back of the loader.  When I go to stand the bents the posts will keep it stable end to end on the loader.  I'm going to stand half a bent at a time and put the scarf joints together in the air, after test fitting them on the ground.  I don't really have any help so I have to be creative and careful on this project.  Not to mention this is my first frame and the learning curve is nuts on this.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 08, 2016, 09:09:48 AM
Here's some more progress.  Finally put up a part of the frame last night, worked out well for doing it solo.  Putting it together I've figured out some rookie mistakes that thankfully weren't a big deal, just time consuming to rectify but valuable lessons for the future.  The pictures just don't do it justice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1107161704a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1478613759)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1107162040a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1478614076)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1107161714a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1478614114)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1107162040.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1478614140)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1107162041.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1478614168)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on November 08, 2016, 04:17:32 PM
That's impressive. What kind of logs you getting to build with?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 08, 2016, 04:35:33 PM
White pine, very nice to work with and I've been lucky to get predominately good logs.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Brian_Weekley on November 08, 2016, 07:31:29 PM
Exciting to see it finally starting to go up!   8)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 10, 2016, 09:20:45 PM
Quote from: Brian_Weekley on November 08, 2016, 07:31:29 PM
Exciting to see it finally starting to go up!   8)

Thanks Brian, it's been a slow go but it's coming along.  I have another bent half put together that will go up this weekend.  Like I said, I'm solo on this project so it's been slow.  The real test for me will be lining up the wall plates when I raise the next bent.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 12, 2016, 10:24:33 PM
Another half bent went up today, found an easy way to line my wall plates up for assembly.  I'll get some pics up tomorrow for you guys.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 21, 2016, 10:47:15 PM
Here's some more progress.  It's going together very well, it's a little tricky lining up the scarf joints and the wall plates at the same time but it's happening.  I'm holding the scarfs together with 12" timberlocs right now until I can make my wedges.  This storm will slow me down for a few days but as soon as the wind dies out I'll clear the slab and keep going.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1117161921.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479786003)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1117161920a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479785990)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1117161922a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479785981)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1118160717.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479785967)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1119161641a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1479785921)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 21, 2016, 10:53:00 PM
I am putting another set of wall plates in flush with the top of the tie beams.  I cut housings into the posts and will fasten them into the frame with timberlocs.  I didn't mortice them in due to the tie beam tannins.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on November 22, 2016, 07:16:29 AM
Looks great.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Rougespear on November 26, 2016, 06:35:44 PM
I see you're using a router and jig?  How is that working out?  Are you using it to cut mortises?  I had a similar idea as well... curious as to your experience?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 27, 2016, 10:16:19 AM
Quote from: Rougespear on November 26, 2016, 06:35:44 PM
I see you're using a router and jig?  How is that working out?  Are you using it to cut mortises?  I had a similar idea as well... curious as to your experience?

Cutting mortises with a chain mortiser and cutting housings with the router.  For the tie beam housings it's the quickest and most accurate way I can cut those housings.  They are coming out nice and square.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Rougespear on November 27, 2016, 08:49:56 PM
Great idea!  I'll have to give that a shot.  I figure my 3 1/4hp Milwaukee router can handle a 1.5" + straight bit for mortising.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 27, 2016, 10:28:13 PM
Quote from: Rougespear on November 27, 2016, 08:49:56 PM
Great idea!  I'll have to give that a shot.  I figure my 3 1/4hp Milwaukee router can handle a 1.5" + straight bit for mortising.

I have a Milwaukee the same size, it should handle it just fine.  I'm using a little Porter Cable router for what I'm doing with a 2" long, 1/2" cut, 1/2" shank Freud straight bit.  It's working just fine without over taxing the router.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 28, 2016, 08:40:23 PM
I cheated and ordered my floor joists from an Amish mill nearby.  I've been waiting on logs for going on to three months, something about our local loggers that makes them not in a hurry.  Anyhow, I have half the first floor frame up and I figured I'm going to get the joists in before I go any further to tie everything together because I'm running out of room to move the tractor around lifting the bents up and figured I can start using the frame to help in the hoisting of the bents.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 06:59:20 PM
I'm halfway there standing the first floor.  I've also started putting floor joists in, those are 5x8's and lots of fun carrying up a ladder alone but they are going in snug without much beating.  Here's how it stands tonight:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1127162213.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480462029)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1127162213a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480462513)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1129161849.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480463815)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1129161850.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480463876)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28185/1129161850a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480463936)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 07:30:42 PM
Are these pictures coming sideways?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on November 29, 2016, 07:35:55 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 07:30:42 PM
Are these pictures coming sideways?
They look correct on my laptop, Windows 10, Firefox 50.0.01

Looking great, by the way! 8)  Working alone is tough :-\
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 07:47:48 PM
They come up right on my phone and sideways on the iPad.  I just rotated them on the iPad and now they show up right, probably just screwed them all up.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on November 29, 2016, 07:59:26 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 07:47:48 PM
They come up right on my phone and sideways on the iPad.  I just rotated them on the iPad and now they show up right, probably just screwed them all up.
Yep, now they are all rotated and skewed/stretched.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 09:06:33 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 29, 2016, 07:59:26 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 07:47:48 PM
They come up right on my phone and sideways on the iPad.  I just rotated them on the iPad and now they show up right, probably just screwed them all up.
Yep, now they are all rotated and skewed/stretched.

I went and fixed them again.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 30, 2016, 01:17:53 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on November 29, 2016, 07:30:42 PM
Are these pictures coming sideways?
Looks ok to me now.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dakota on November 30, 2016, 10:33:31 AM
Look OK to me.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Brian_Weekley on November 30, 2016, 06:00:00 PM
They are sideways and stretched on my ipad, but they look fine on my computers.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on November 30, 2016, 10:11:42 PM
I don't get why it does that, but I guess that's just the way it is.  Ran into my first "back up and use your head before you get hurt" moments tonight putting floor joists up.  They work out to be 5x8's at 12' long.  They are a mix of green pine and green hemlock.  I've set 8 of them throwing them on my shoulder and carrying them up a 10' step ladder, then setting them in the pockets.  They are heavy, should weigh one or two to see. 
I think I'm going to fab up a boom stick to mount on the frame I made for lifting the walls.  Think I'll make it about 10' long out of 2" black iron pipe and make receivers to weld onto the lifting frame.  Hopefully that'll save my back and shoulder.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 01, 2016, 02:44:07 AM
gin pole with block and tackle works.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 01, 2016, 09:36:48 AM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on December 01, 2016, 02:44:07 AM
gin pole with block and tackle works.

Jim Rogers

Any tricks for using them alone?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Brian_Weekley on December 01, 2016, 11:30:45 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on December 01, 2016, 09:36:48 AM

Any tricks for using them alone?

Here's a good example of setup and use of a gin pole (just substitute a tractor for the people):    :o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2pkBvJGMuQ
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on December 01, 2016, 01:06:38 PM
Nice video.  The only thing I would do different would be to make a bi-pod.  Use two poles.  Then, it is inherently more stable then a mono-pole.  You anchor the base and you can use a come-along to angle it out from another anchor point - more like a crane.  You can even rig a boom with another block and tackle to adjust it.  The advantage there is you can swing it to adjust for the balance point vs. where it needs to be centered.  The Army has a document about setting up gin poles and such.  The title is something like "rigging".  There is a PDF out there somewhere.  I printed it off and stuck it in a binder for when I'm raising my cabin.

Part 3 is kind of funny.  He makes the comment that the pull-gang had to pull the rope through the other barn man-door for the last beam section and couldn't see what was going on.  Duh, you're using a snatch block, just turn it around and pull across the floor!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 01, 2016, 01:28:06 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on December 01, 2016, 09:36:48 AM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on December 01, 2016, 02:44:07 AM
gin pole with block and tackle works.

Jim Rogers

Any tricks for using them alone?

Tie off your guide lines well so that the position of the upper block is directly over the location of the standing timbers. So you don't have to move the raised timber one way or the other.

Use at least 2 pulleys in each block to multiply your pulling power by 4.

If you need to raise a timber and hold it up while you run up a ladder to align a mortise over a tenon (in a plate for example) tie off your pull line to something very strong so it won't slip on you.

Jack raised his barn frame alone by using a gin pole with a peg sticking out of it to tie off his vertical pull line. He figured he could pull down his own weight so if he weighed 200 lbs and used 4 pulleys in two blocks that meant he could lift 800 lbs of timber. A two piece plate of pine weighs less than that.

Secure the base of the gin pole so that it won't shift on you while the load is up or going up.

See my frame raising video parts one and two on YouTube, or search for it here on the forum. I think I posted a link in a story here somewhere.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on December 01, 2016, 01:31:17 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on December 01, 2016, 01:06:38 PM
Part 3 is kind of funny.  He makes the comment that the pull-gang had to pull the rope through the other barn man-door for the last beam section and couldn't see what was going on.  Duh, you're using a snatch block, just turn it around and pull across the floor!

It's best to have the pull crew stand still so that there is no risk of tripping while backing up. And just pull the line through your hands, hand over hand.

Jim Rogers
PS and yes direct out so all can see and be seen and heard.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 02, 2016, 08:21:46 AM
Thanks again guys.  If you guys see anything lacking or just plain not right in my frame so far, don't be shy in pointing it out.  I turned in all my pride at the wedding altar years ago.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 02, 2016, 08:13:59 PM
Just put a boom pole on my lifting contraption.  Just a 2" black iron pipe about 12' long.  I hung of of the end of it and did some pullups on it, no give.  Figured these joists at 120 to 170#'s, the heavy ones being the hemlock.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 14, 2017, 09:32:44 PM
Progress has slowed again after a good fall, but here's a video tour of what's done as of this morning.  I've started back up again and will throw more up as I go.

https://youtu.be/AQZMfAr7loY
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dave Shepard on January 14, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
That looks great! Very robust. The "wall plates" are actually girts. :)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 14, 2017, 11:25:10 PM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on January 14, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
That looks great! Very robust. The "wall plates" are actually girts. :)

I knew it!  Always somebody!  I'm glad you like it.  Going sllllllllooooooowwwwwwww...but worth it all the way.  I'm going to film the rest of the project and post as I go, I think it'll keep me progressing and be more engaging to watch than posts on a forum.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 15, 2017, 08:57:52 AM
Here's a much better version with more pictures.

https://youtu.be/iIKczRA_U54
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 09:41:48 AM
Here's the next installment:

https://youtu.be/VNjk92qwDOs
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dave Shepard on January 17, 2017, 11:14:47 AM
Thanks for making the video. I like seeing big timbers. What is the span of that tie, is it the full 28'?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 11:22:03 AM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on January 17, 2017, 11:14:47 AM
Thanks for making the video. I like seeing big timbers. What is the span of that tie, is it the full 28'?

Unsupported span is 12' on this one.  I figured the 2nd floor for 80 psf and sized them accordingly.  Full wood shop going on the second floor.  Was that video too long?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on January 17, 2017, 11:36:53 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 11:22:03 AM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on January 17, 2017, 11:14:47 AM
Thanks for making the video. I like seeing big timbers. What is the span of that tie, is it the full 28'?
Was that video too long?

NO!  Good editing.  I wanted to see more!  Will you be doing videos on pockets and mortices?  I hope so!

You did some editing but you look like you are really fast at making these tennons.  I'm assuming you were doing this in the evening and judging by the shadow movement, you did this in less than an hour, perhaps 30 minutes?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 11:47:15 AM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on January 17, 2017, 11:36:53 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 11:22:03 AM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on January 17, 2017, 11:14:47 AM
Thanks for making the video. I like seeing big timbers. What is the span of that tie, is it the full 28'?
Was that video too long?

NO!  Good editing.  I wanted to see more!  Will you be doing videos on pockets and mortices?  I hope so!

You did some editing but you look like you are really fast at making these tennons.  I'm assuming you were doing this in the evening and judging by the shadow movement, you did this in less than an hour, perhaps 30 minutes?

Going to film the process the rest of the way, also planning to do a TF house addition that I'll film.  I've been watching YouTube for years and have learned a ton so I figured I'd start sharing what I do.  The next video will be the joist pockets and the wall post tenon.  After that it'll be raising that bent and the GIRTS......
Had to make sure I said that one right!

I filmed that in the afternoon, the tenon tool me about 45 minutes, keep in mind I work at my own pace with many interruptions from the kids.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
Girt?  What's a girt?  Do you mean plate?  Or did you mispell grits?  Grits doesn't make any sense in this context but they are great with cheese.  Rarely a bad spot for some good cheese grits. 
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
Girt?  What's a girt?  Do you mean plate?  Or did you mispell grits?  Grits doesn't make any sense in this context but they are great with cheese.  Rarely a bad spot for some good cheese grits.

I can't have nothin', call em wall plates....they're girts.....call em girts.......they're grits......
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 03:40:59 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
Girt?  What's a girt?  Do you mean plate?  Or did you mispell grits?  Grits doesn't make any sense in this context but they are great with cheese.  Rarely a bad spot for some good cheese grits.

I can't have nothin', call em wall plates....they're girts.....call em girts.......they're grits......

Maybe you meant to put some grits on a plate?   ;D

In any case that was a well made and edited video.  Much appreciated and best of luck on the rest of the build!  Looking forward to seeing the next video.  Stay warm
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 03:40:59 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on January 17, 2017, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
Girt?  What's a girt?  Do you mean plate?  Or did you mispell grits?  Grits doesn't make any sense in this context but they are great with cheese.  Rarely a bad spot for some good cheese grits.

I can't have nothin', call em wall plates....they're girts.....call em girts.......they're grits......

Maybe you meant to put some grits on a plate?   ;D

In any case that was a well made and edited video.  Much appreciated and best of luck on the rest of the build!  Looking forward to seeing the next video.  Stay warm

January is turning out to be the warmest one in my lifetime.  Used to be -20 to -10 for a good portion of January and February, this year it's been in the 30's and 40's.  No complaints here.  Only plowed snow twice and it's all gone now.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on January 18, 2017, 07:07:53 AM
Really enjoyed the video. You are making some nice progress. ;D And yes, that is some big timbers. :o
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 18, 2017, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
Girt?  What's a girt?  Do you mean plate?  Or did you mispell grits?  Grits doesn't make any sense in this context but they are great with cheese.  Rarely a bad spot for some good cheese grits.

Nativewolf:
From timber framing glossary of terms:

QuoteGIRT. Horizontal timber joining wall posts at a level somewhere between sill and plate. A
wall girt runs parallel to the ridge, a bent girt perpendicular; either can support the edge of a floor frame.

Maybe you should/could read some of the glossary to become familiar with the terms.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: brendonv on January 18, 2017, 11:50:37 AM
I subscribed to this on youtube last night. Didnt know it was this project, cool!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: nativewolf on January 18, 2017, 12:11:08 PM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on January 18, 2017, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on January 17, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
Girt?  What's a girt?  Do you mean plate?  Or did you mispell grits?  Grits doesn't make any sense in this context but they are great with cheese.  Rarely a bad spot for some good cheese grits.

So you're saying it's not someone mispelling grits  ;D.  Not sure why that was funny to me but girts/grits and plates just hit my funny bone. 


Nativewolf:
From timber framing glossary of terms:

QuoteGIRT. Horizontal timber joining wall posts at a level somewhere between sill and plate. A
wall girt runs parallel to the ridge, a bent girt perpendicular; either can support the edge of a floor frame.

Maybe you should/could read some of the glossary to become familiar with the terms.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 19, 2017, 08:27:38 AM
I wasn't going to put this one up here because most of you guys can blow me out of the water with what you know about the subject compared to my knowledge.  At the same time if a newbie is reading through I think it's worth a mention.  I'm sorry for the length of these but it's hard to pack it into a five minute block.

https://youtu.be/CAz-BXKmVe0
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: GKPinUtah on January 20, 2017, 01:40:43 PM
 Thank you.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 21, 2017, 10:07:18 AM
https://youtu.be/7NHoq54ElzU
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Rougespear on January 21, 2017, 10:31:41 AM
Wow, great tip on the chisel sharpening jig!  Thanks to both you and Dave.  Keep the videos coming.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: nativewolf on January 21, 2017, 04:17:10 PM
Nice beam!, definitely not a plate of grits.  Good to hear you helper keeping your production high so they can get their cabin finished.  Keep the video's coming, quite enjoyable.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 23, 2017, 08:53:38 AM
Here's some more...

https://youtu.be/FmoyfwhJ3MM
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on January 26, 2017, 02:59:55 PM
keep the videos coming. Some really good info. ;D
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on January 26, 2017, 04:09:44 PM
Another nice video.  Did you use the router to cut the housing or did you chisel it out?  I saw you using the little speed square for your router guide to clean up the edge - nice!  Somewhere I saw a monster speed square (might have been HF) that would allow you to do the full width.  Did you ever think of making your own oversize (wooden) speed square for that task?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 26, 2017, 08:40:11 PM
Quote from: fishfighter on January 26, 2017, 02:59:55 PM
keep the videos coming. Some really good info. ;D

I'll keep em coming, weather and busyness turned on me this week.  The next one will be knee braces and the following one will be wall post joinery.  Glad you guys are enjoying them.  If you guys see anything I'm doing wrong, please don't be shy about it.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 26, 2017, 08:46:44 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on January 26, 2017, 04:09:44 PM
Another nice video.  Did you use the router to cut the housing or did you chisel it out?  I saw you using the little speed square for your router guide to clean up the edge - nice!  Somewhere I saw a monster speed square (might have been HF) that would allow you to do the full width.  Did you ever think of making your own oversize (wooden) speed square for that task?

I cheated and used the router for the whole thing.  I keep meaning to buy a big speed square and forget every time I go to the hardware store.  The wooden one is a great idea, think I'll do that.  I use a router to cut my tie beam housings also, you'll like that one.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on January 26, 2017, 09:40:45 PM
For my joist pockets, I'll probably make a frame template, place that on the beams an just route it out.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 26, 2017, 09:50:09 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on January 26, 2017, 09:40:45 PM
For my joist pockets, I'll probably make a frame template, place that on the beams an just route it out.

I tried that as well but found I was quicker with the chisel, think my little Porter Cable router is a touch small.  I have a 3hp Milwaukee router but the bottom plate is broken.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 26, 2017, 10:28:44 PM
Using a router is quick, if it is powerful enough to make the cut.
Several things you need to watch out for. One is if the timber is rough sawn the dimension my vary and you may need to set the depth of the router bit to the line, not just assume it is 1/2".
Next when you rout out a big area you are removing the support for the router base. Sometimes the router can tip because there isn't enough support. If this happens it maybe necessary to attach an "offset" router base.
Jigs and templates that will support the router are great and can be made to do what you need to have done.
Using a router means you have to have electrical power at the work site. Sometimes that isn't possible and you may have to have a generator going.

Noise and dust are also a concern. Be sure to wear proper personal protection equipment.

Router safety is a must. Some of those bits rotate at 10,000 rpms and can cut you real fast if you get them too close to yourself.
One basic router safety is to not pick it up with the bit spinning. Wait a second until it stops and you reduce the risk to cutting yourself or getting your clothing caught in the spinning bit.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 27, 2017, 06:28:21 PM
First set of cabinets I ever built I was using a cheap Craftsman router.  Tightened the 3/8" rabbitting bit I was using down as tight as I could, that style router has the push button stop for setting your bits.  But came flying out and took a chunk of my right middle finger with it, just skin fortunately.  Moral of the story: use a router with a good collet that has a backer but to tighten the shank in with.  That router went to the garbage after that.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 28, 2017, 02:07:35 AM
I learned on thing when I read the router handbook. The end of the bit shank, just before the cutter has a radius cut to it. If the collet is tightened down on the radius the bit can easily come loose and fall out. To prevent that from happening the author suggested to add a black rubber o-ring around the shank. Slide it all the way up to the cutter, and it will not go all the way up as the radius forces it back down. You insert the bit until the o-ring touches the collet and then you tighten it up. This prevents the bit from being tightened up in the wrong spot.
I put o-rings on all my router bits.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on January 29, 2017, 01:26:47 AM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on January 28, 2017, 02:07:35 AM
I learned on thing when I read the router handbook. The end of the bit shank, just before the cutter has a radius cut to it. If the collet is tightened down on the radius the bit can easily come loose and fall out. To prevent that from happening the author suggested to add a black rubber o-ring around the shank. Slide it all the way up to the cutter, and it will not go all the way up as the radius forces it back down. You insert the bit until the o-ring touches the collet and then you tighten it up. This prevents the bit from being tightened up in the wrong spot.
I put o-rings on all my router bits.

Jim Rogers

I know the groove you speak of.  I had the bit out of the collet just past that groove and tightened it as hard as I could holding in the tiny little metal stop.  The problem with the stop on that model is you can't put a backer on the collet.  I won't own one now without a backing but for the collet.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: peterpaul on February 03, 2017, 09:11:36 AM
Nice videos, just found them and enjoyed them very much.   

Regarding templates for using a router to cut housings.  Am I correct that if the template is laid flat on the non-reference face of an out of square timber than the housing will also be out of square?  It would appear to me, for example, that if the timber is 1/8" out of square and the router template is laid flat on that surface and not shimmed parallel to the reference face, then the housing face would be paralell to the out of square surface, not the reference face.  This would result in throwing off the overall assembled dimension, resulting in a joint that is open on one side. Is this correct?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dave Shepard on February 03, 2017, 10:07:58 AM
That is correct. Chop it with an axe to within a 1/16", or 1/8" of the line and finish with a chisel or slick. Or kerf it with a circ saw, but be sure to set the depth to the shallower line.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on February 15, 2017, 11:35:00 PM
Glad you enjoyed them, as soon as the weather breaks I'll be making more on the barn.  I've been working on making some tables, a waste oil burner for the shop and now I'm working on a sawdust burner for the woodshop on the second floor of the barn.  Just trying to stay enthused until I can get back to cutting joinery.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dave Shepard on March 02, 2017, 07:37:30 PM
I was thinking about this discussion this week regarding housings on the non-reference face. As peterpaul mentioned, if the reference face was out of square, then your housing wouldn't be true to the layout. The other issue would be that you need to scoop out the center of the housing so it doesn't force the joint apart as the timber dries. This is hand tool work, unless you use an angle grinder or something like that. Someone asked me if I really chop to within an 1/8". I do. The final clean up is done with my grip choked up on the handle. This housing is 16" wide and 1.5" deep in white oak. First pic is the axe work, second is cleaned up with the 2" framing chisel.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/IMG_20170224_091135813.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1488501243) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/IMG_20170224_091816318.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1488501297)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on March 02, 2017, 07:53:17 PM
How is this beam/post going to be oriented?  I can't quite grasp how this housing is going to work with how the tenon is cut.  Also, I see a saw kerf on the back side?  Will that affect the use (was that an error)?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dave Shepard on March 02, 2017, 08:09:43 PM
That is the other half of the housing. It hasn't been chopled yet, as it will get done while standing on the other side. This is a purlin post, and the mortise is for an anchorbeam.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on March 04, 2017, 07:21:08 PM
Thanks for the info Dave.  What I've been doing is outside of convention, I've been using the reference face for my major framing member housings.  I've also been taking extreme care in the milling process to make sure I'm getting my beams very square, makes a huge difference.
I did get the sawmill moved and set back up this week.

https://youtu.be/JtE_iORALg4
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on March 12, 2017, 03:18:09 PM
Couple more timber framing videos.  One was a request from a YouTube creator to explain some of the process, sorry about the audio on that one.  Another is one on making pegs.  If there's anything you guys think is wrong, let me know.

https://youtu.be/UPtHYR-DxDc

https://youtu.be/tSHjfNLIiT4
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on March 21, 2017, 07:30:21 PM
I relayed a lot of information I learned here into this one.  There's a good sized channel that picked my barn videos up and asked for more info.  Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere guys, especially Jim if you're lurking around.

https://youtu.be/01xxEMZBDDw
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 02, 2017, 12:57:57 PM
I have put this one up in the milling thread but figure some of you might keep to the timber framing section.  I was out this past weekend cutting timbers for the barn.  Waiting for logs has been the largest factor in how much time this build is taking, sometimes waiting six months for logs.  Well I came across a place willing to let me buy timbers on an as needed basis.  I even get to select the trees and cut them myself.  There's more than enough to finish this barn and the price is half what I was paying.  The land owner is even skidding them out for me and loading them for free!  Here's some of them I cut last weekend:

https://youtu.be/VWHi3jRo-mQ
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 04, 2017, 09:31:35 PM
This has to be the rainiest spring we've ever had.  I'm going nuts with beams ready to cut joinery in and no way to do it in the dry, I don't want to ruin my tools...9 out of the 10 day forcast coming up is rain...rain...rain and more rain.  I'm going to have to setup tarps and some tents I guess.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: richhiway on May 07, 2017, 09:14:07 PM
Enjoy your posts and video. Nice logging, good deal. Get yourself a hard hat. You shouldn't be in the woods without one.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 08, 2017, 10:23:19 PM
Quote from: richhiway on May 07, 2017, 09:14:07 PM
Enjoy your posts and video. Nice logging, good deal. Get yourself a hard hat. You shouldn't be in the woods without one.

It was a dumb thing to do, worst part is I own one and forgot it at home 40 miles away.  Glad you're enjoying the videos, I have quite a few to do yet.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 21, 2017, 06:05:08 PM
Little more barn work this weekend, made two videos.  I'm working on the one of the raising right now.

https://youtu.be/9wk8n7ot1jc
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 23, 2017, 06:49:45 AM
I've been promising a video of putting a bent up so here it is.  Filmed it Saturday, was a nice day.

https://youtu.be/QPFZGNg4YPU
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on May 23, 2017, 10:53:13 AM
Nice video and description. 

I'm wondering why you don't have a "persuader" to put your frame together.  I picked up a couple old wood baseball bats I plan to attach to some off cuts of beams.  That would be easier to handle than a sledge (single handed) and a block of wood.

You sure ran out of light there!  Probably should have talked less in the shop :D  One thing to think about with your video - the background noise.  I'm sure you struggled with should I or shouldn't I but the persistent high pitched rattle from you tractor detracted a bit (IMO) from the video.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 23, 2017, 11:05:26 AM
That's good feedback, I appreciate it.  The ball bat is a great idea, I kept breaking handles on the persuaded as well as the heads, I'll try that out.  I shot the talking last night, a couple of days after putting the bent half up.  I cut a lot of joinery Saturday and just about ran out of time!  Wasn't able to the twork on it Sunday.  The background noise is something I've been toying with, some people like to hear the tools but I have trouble getting it just right.  Need to find more depressing music!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on May 23, 2017, 11:18:05 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on May 23, 2017, 11:05:26 AM
That's good feedback, I appreciate it.  The ball bat is a great idea, I kept breaking handles on the persuaded as well as the heads, I'll try that out.
I suppose you could use an aluminum bat... ;)  I think Jim Rodgers had some stuff posted a while back.  Use either a log round or a cut off.  Then wrap each end with plumber's strapping - the 1/2" wide galvi strap with a series of holes and just a few screws.  Might help the heads last a little longer.
Quote
Need to find more depressing music!
:D  I didn't want to say anything!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: grouch on May 23, 2017, 12:09:42 PM
(Disclaimer: I've never raised a timber frame).

Is the commander out of date?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38564/commander-5330.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495555618)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38564/sloane-5331.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495555618)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38564/sloane-5332.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495555619)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 23, 2017, 12:14:35 PM
Not out of date at all.  I like that.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: woodworker9 on May 23, 2017, 03:32:31 PM
I watched the video this morning, 5 am, with my morning coffee.  It really shows what we're up against working alone.  I, unfortunately, find myself working alone on these projects quite often, as well.  My 27 year old son is not "available" as often as I'd like him to be.....

Since the music was already mentioned.........I was looking for a razor blade for my wrists after listening to it...... :D :D :D :D

Maybe a little more upbeat next time.. :)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 23, 2017, 09:33:53 PM
Woodworker9, that is one of the funniest things I've ever read.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: woodworker9 on May 24, 2017, 09:10:41 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on May 23, 2017, 09:33:53 PM
Woodworker9, that is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Just messin' with you....hope you know that.  Hard to convey that with a keyboard :) :)

I'm enjoying your channel.  I've actually watched probably 80% of your video's so far.  You're a year ahead of me on the TF build.  I just got hooked up with about 50 standing white pines that I can have if I cut them down myself.  I've got to build a log arch and trailer hoist so I can load them out of the guys property.  I can't haul my skidsteer and the logs on the same trailer.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 24, 2017, 09:35:47 AM
Quote from: woodworker9 on May 24, 2017, 09:10:41 AM
Quote from: jimdad07 on May 23, 2017, 09:33:53 PM
Woodworker9, that is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Just messin' with you....hope you know that.  Hard to convey that with a keyboard :) :)

I'm enjoying your channel.  I've actually watched probably 80% of your video's so far.  You're a year ahead of me on the TF build.  I just got hooked up with about 50 standing white pines that I can have if I cut them down myself.  I've got to build a log arch and trailer hoist so I can load them out of the guys property.  I can't haul my skidsteer and the logs on the same trailer.

I know you were...I enjoy the feedback and interaction.  It's fun to start seeing the same people commenting on every video.
This forum here is about the best and most honest place I've found for a resource on timber framing.  These guys in here are just plain great.
Looking forward to seeing your progress.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: lochridge on May 25, 2017, 12:47:06 PM
jimdad07,
what router bit are you using in the video?  I am probably going to end up using the router on a bunch of housings myself later this year.  it seams as though that bit was working really well.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on May 25, 2017, 01:12:41 PM
Quote from: lochridge on May 25, 2017, 12:47:06 PM
jimdad07,
what router bit are you using in the video?  I am probably going to end up using the router on a bunch of housings myself later this year.  it seams as though that bit was working really well.

I use a 1" Freud strait bit 1.25" long with a half inch shank as well as a 3/4" Freud strait bit 1.75" long with a half inch shank.  I have found that I use three cheap bits up compared to one of the Freuds.  They work very well but I will warn you that if you use a router, spend a lot of time when you mill your timbers on squaring them up.  Otherwise you will have to make a lot of jigs to make sure your housings are square to your reference face.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 01, 2017, 07:00:30 AM
Working on the last tie beam and covered laying out a scarf joint in detail.  I want to put a bit of a disclaimer here:  This is what I do that works for me, it does not make it proper but my results have been good.  I'm putting all of these videos up to show how I'm doing this project in better detail.  A lot of what I know about this is from this forum, the TF Guild website and reading Sobon and Chapelle.  If you are new to the forum and learning like I am please do your own research before you take my word for it I would hate to have somebody get hurt because they took my advice.  That said, enjoy, it's a long one.

https://youtu.be/J-YVy9IwFZo
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 03, 2017, 01:26:08 PM
Here's the second part of the scarf joint layout.  Hope it helps some of you who are doing the same.  If there's anything I missed please let me know.  You can also find some more information if you search posts by Jim Rogers.  I might start referring to him as the FF Timber Framing Godfather.

https://youtu.be/92n3YuhoJ7E
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on June 03, 2017, 11:08:55 PM
I was planning on making a full size template out of some Masonite or ply utilizing the factory straight edge and corner to line up with the reference face.  I have 5 scarf joints to make (both halves).  The template would be run from the reference face on both the top and bottom sections of the joint, on one it would cover the "save" part and the other it would be the "cut" part.  I'm assuming I can use this template on both the adjacent face and the opposite face (to the adjacent).  Is this something that will work or am I missing a key point?
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on June 04, 2017, 10:43:43 AM
ljohnsaw:
That should work as long as the opposite adjacent face is 90° to the reference face. And just to note that the reference face on a tie beam or any horizontal timber is the top, towards the roof.

jimdad07:
Thanks for your kind words.
The only thing I'd like to caution others about is that I usually cut the two halves of the scarf and test fit them together before I cut any other joinery in either timber. If you have to trim one side of the scarf to get it to fit and you've already cut other joinery in the timber, it may shift things off their mark. Once they are together, at the end of your test fit up, you can then consider it one long timber and layout all your other joints.
There are many different types of scarf joints and I have done an ebook on the bladed scarf joint, as well as "how to" videos on layout and cutting of this joint. I hope to market them more some day.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/1j_Post_and_repair.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1496587329)

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 04, 2017, 10:44:35 AM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on June 03, 2017, 11:08:55 PM
I was planning on making a full size template out of some Masonite or ply utilizing the factory straight edge and corner to line up with the reference face.  I have 5 scarf joints to make (both halves).  The template would be run from the reference face on both the top and bottom sections of the joint, on one it would cover the "save" part and the other it would be the "cut" part.  I'm assuming I can use this template on both the adjacent face and the opposite face (to the adjacent).  Is this something that will work or am I missing a key point?

Should work just fine, I'm pretty sure Jim Rogers does that when he has a lot to cut.  When I do my top plates that's the plan for those.  I wanted to show how to lay them out from scratch for teaching purposes.  I measured all of the scarfs for the tie beams when I probably could have saved a lot of time with a template.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 04, 2017, 10:57:19 AM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on June 04, 2017, 10:43:43 AM
ljohnsaw:
That should work as long as the opposite adjacent face is 90° to the reference face. And just to note that the reference face on a tie beam or any horizontal timber is the top, towards the roof.

jimdad07:
Thanks for your kind words.
The only thing I'd like to caution others about is that I usually cut the two halves of the scarf and test fit them together before I cut any other joinery in either timber. If you have to trim one side of the scarf to get it to fit and you've already cut other joinery in the timber, it may shift things off their mark. Once they are together, at the end of your test fit up, you can then consider it one long timber and layout all your other joints.
There are many different types of scarf joints and I have done an ebook on the bladed scarf joint, as well as "how to" videos on layout and cutting of this joint. I hope to market them more some day.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/1j_Post_and_repair.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1496587329)

Jim Rogers

There is a real thirst out there for this knowledge, you would do well to publish what you know on the subject.  I have become obsessed with timber framing since even before I started this project and I would like to work towards doing it as a sideline and eventually make it full time.  I'd like to maybe get a set of small house plans stamped by a timber frame engineer and try to cut one or two kits to see how it goes.  Once this building is up weather will no longer be an issue for production.  Big dreams.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: 50 Acre Jim on June 04, 2017, 11:05:17 AM
May be old hat for some but I find this simply outstanding !

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/1j_Post_and_repair.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1496587329)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 04, 2017, 11:08:55 AM
Quote from: 50 Acre Jim on June 04, 2017, 11:05:17 AM
May be old hat for some but I find this simply outstanding !

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/1j_Post_and_repair.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1496587329)

He sure does really good work! He has a passion for it too and that makes all the difference.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on June 04, 2017, 01:31:40 PM
That picture was taken 15 years ago, and it was at a Timber Framers Guild project. We took a barn down in one town. Moved it to another town, repaired or replaced all missing timbers, and put it back together again.
I donated a week of my time cutting joints under the direction of the head man just to learn how to do things like that.
And that joint can be cut into a post in a standing barn:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF2722.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1496597307)

You just have to understand the step by step procedure to do it.

When anyone ever asks me: "how'd you learn all that stuff?" I always reply "by joining the Timber Framers Guild."

If you're not a member and you want to learn more I suggest you join.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 04, 2017, 02:40:10 PM
How does it work to join the guild as a hobbiest looking to go into it slowly and build a small business?  The more I do and learn the more I want to do it.  I've never built anything that has felt more rewarding.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 04, 2017, 03:20:55 PM
Just answered my own question.  Filling out the application.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 04, 2017, 05:00:35 PM
The final on my tie beam scarfs.  This my last tie beam to cut.  I will have scarf joints in my top plates but they will be a different kind.  Hope you guys enjoy.

https://youtu.be/X5P0EC6hzvg
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Dave Shepard on June 04, 2017, 06:55:34 PM
ljohnsaw, yes, you can use your template on both sides just as you described. Always reference the top edge. It may be tough to reference tbe top when you are laying out on the waste end of a timber. You could clamp a straightedge on the top to reference the template.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on June 04, 2017, 06:59:38 PM
I am really enjoining your build. Thanks for the time for the videos. If only I was 20 years younger. :(
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 04, 2017, 09:59:34 PM
Quote from: fishfighter on June 04, 2017, 06:59:38 PM
I am really enjoining your build. Thanks for the time for the videos. If only I was 20 years younger. :(

For the health issues you've had to overcome I think you're doing a fantastic job on your project.  That kind of thing keeps a man going, gives him purpose.  People were meant to create and to build, it's a natural thing for us to do.  I'm glad you're enjoying it, wish I had filmed from the beginning.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on June 08, 2017, 12:02:41 AM
jimdad07, I've been trying to send you a PM and it isn't going through for some reason, can you send me an email?
I have some ideas for you.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 08, 2017, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on June 08, 2017, 12:02:41 AM
jimdad07, I've been trying to send you a PM and it isn't going through for some reason, can you send me an email?
I have some ideas for you.

Jim Rogers

Just found your messages, I do everything in my phone and messages don't show in my notifications.  I'll be there, just cleared it with the boss at home.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 10, 2017, 07:33:44 AM
Working on the last tie beam of this project and I have some pretty heavy wane to deal with on the reference face.  Here's how I feel with it:

https://youtu.be/YNpI5N2HOKk
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: woodworker9 on June 10, 2017, 09:30:15 AM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on June 04, 2017, 01:31:40 PM
That picture was taken 15 years ago, and it was at a Timber Framers Guild project. We took a barn down in one town. Moved it to another town, repaired or replaced all missing timbers, and put it back together again.
I donated a week of my time cutting joints under the direction of the head man just to learn how to do things like that.
And that joint can be cut into a post in a standing barn:



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF2722.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1496597307)

You just have to understand the step by step procedure to do it.

When anyone ever asks me: "how'd you learn all that stuff?" I always reply "by joining the Timber Framers Guild."

If you're not a member and you want to learn more I suggest you join.

Jim Rogers

Jim-  Is there a thread somewhere on this forum that discusses the cutting of this scarf, as well as others?  I have lots of questions, but don't want to muck up Jim's build thread with them.

One of the questions I have is that, since I can't see how you cut that scarf joint, what keeps the beams together side to side, sliding out sideways?  Is there some sort of key in the middle of the joint not shown?

Thanks,

Jeff
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 10, 2017, 09:35:57 AM

[/quote]

Jim-  Is there a thread somewhere on this forum that discusses the cutting of this scarf, as well as others?  I have lots of questions, but don't want to muck up Jim's build thread with them.

One of the questions I have is that, since I can't see how you cut that scarf joint, what keeps the beams together side to side, sliding out sideways?  Is there some sort of key in the middle of the joint not shown?

Thanks,

Jeff
[/quote]

You ask all of the questions you want, there is no mucking up anything.  We're all here to learn together.  A good source of information on scarfs can also be found on TF Headquarters.  He has some good illustrations and explanations there.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Jim_Rogers on June 10, 2017, 10:21:06 AM
See new thread for answer.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 11, 2017, 03:26:48 PM
Continuing on with the last tie beam this one covers cutting joist pockets.

https://youtu.be/7xamQFiAFeo
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 13, 2017, 08:33:42 AM
Almost finished with this tie beam.  Had to break up the videos because they would be way too long otherwise.

https://youtu.be/sSdZoj7oksY
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on June 16, 2017, 08:34:55 AM
THE FINAL TIE BEAM BRACE MORTICE!  I actually cut this one by hand, it almost killed me.

https://youtu.be/5zadF2gPHKY
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on July 04, 2017, 07:18:18 PM
Progress has been very slow but I am moving forward.  Got some more stood up and working on getting the last bent finalized to stand it.

https://youtu.be/j2HZFClHzRQ
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on July 23, 2017, 09:26:15 PM
Man has it been busy around here, dodging rain drops, mowing hay, baling hay, moving hay, smelling hay, dreaming about hay.....you get the picture.  Did find some more layout video I forgot I had.  This stuff was done before I met up with Jim Rogers if that tells you anything.  But here it is and I hope you guys enjoy it...BTW there is some progress being made again.

https://youtu.be/In9DiB19iPA
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on July 24, 2017, 08:04:18 AM
Fixed the center post I cut yesterday, went much better than I thought it was going to.

https://youtu.be/TAYX79jOkX8
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: Ljohnsaw on July 24, 2017, 10:49:16 AM
Nice video and explanation. 

Couple of questions, though.  You have the tractor, why not take that bent down to pull the screws and re-cut?  There is just a couple girts holding it in place, correct?  Also, you didn't do some sort of dowel to keep that post positioned?  I understand there will be a lot of weight on it, but just wondering.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on July 24, 2017, 11:05:12 AM
Taking the bent down isn't as easy as putting it up after it's all put together.  It would probably be fine butexpandable  time consuming. 
As for the post not being anchored I did that so that I can make any adjustments to the frame I need too after the bents are all standing.  After that I'm making brackets to anchor them to the floor with expandable drop in anchors. 
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on July 31, 2017, 12:54:45 PM
Video on leaving the line and why.  Sure does make a difference.

https://youtu.be/fmQMgIgGxyE
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on July 31, 2017, 12:57:23 PM
Setting floor joists with my homebrew boom stick.

https://youtu.be/hjpj1CZQSDs
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 03, 2017, 09:48:04 AM
Chain mortiser have me some fits but we got through it.

https://youtu.be/J_HPva1o_x8

https://youtu.be/mNTGBUkejUw
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 05, 2017, 04:11:33 PM
Had a good time with my middle kid last night.  She got to participate in the joinery cutting and had fun doing it.

https://youtu.be/we64bBdzgEQ
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: PA_Walnut on August 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM
Great thread and motivational. Just about to begin a similar conquest with a VERY similarly sized building and frame. That boom invention is genius! Any particulars or tips?
Thanks.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 12, 2017, 05:33:16 AM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on August 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM
Great thread and motivational. Just about to begin a similar conquest with a VERY similarly sized building and frame. That boom invention is genius! Any particulars or tips?
Thanks.

Good morning.  Only tip I can give you is to be patient and think outside the box if you're doing it alone.  Good luck to you, don't be afraid to video or take lots of pictures along the way.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: PA_Walnut on August 13, 2017, 10:23:45 PM
Will do. In fact, my REAL job is in the video biz, so I'll document the whole thing with video.  ;D
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 13, 2017, 10:25:23 PM
Arts boy...I'm still learning the ins and outs of video work...getting there very slowly.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: PA_Walnut on August 13, 2017, 10:55:09 PM
20 years and I'm still learning each day. Your videos look reasonable and informative, so you're doing something right. The best advice I'd give is to keep them short and sweet. Attention spans diminish exponentially with each generation.  ::)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 13, 2017, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: PA_Walnut on August 13, 2017, 10:55:09 PM
20 years and I'm still learning each day. Your videos look reasonable and informative, so you're doing something right. The best advice I'd give is to keep them short and sweet. Attention spans diminish exponentially with each generation.  ::)

The last few I've shortened up a lot, trying new editing techniques and taking advantage of the iPhone 7 features.  Working on a shaving horse finally, half way through the project of course but the fourth video in that series I think came out much better than what I've been doing...time will tell.

https://youtu.be/OYhQCmIvGFo
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: PA_Walnut on August 14, 2017, 07:50:49 AM
Looks great and THANK YOU for using a mic.  :D
Are you getting decent metrics/views on your videos.

iPhone7 is a fabulous little tool. If you get your video out of the phone and into an edit app like Premiere, you'll really sail.

Thanks for the timber framing inspiration and the motivation to actually put together my shave horse that I cut parts for 10+ years ago! Seeking some nice white pine logs now to get sawing and stack them. My site is scheduled for excavation in 2 weeks!  8)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on August 14, 2017, 08:05:30 AM
The channel is growing steadily, the views are climbing daily as well as the sub count.  Its slow but steady, I'm gaining 10 to 30 subs a day depending on what part of the week it is.  I use Davinnci Resolve for my editing after converting the video files to MP4 720P in Movavi.  The editing is actually enjoyable.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: PA_Walnut on August 14, 2017, 08:37:05 AM
You are on a good path with Resolve! We use that exclusively now for both editing and color-grading. Love it. In fact, we have the full-blown Resolve with big control surfaces, etc. It's the bomb.

I hope my timber-framing project gets me out from behind the console though. Sanity break, for sure!
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 11, 2017, 08:27:38 AM
Been slow on updates here but I finally raised the final bent this weekend.

https://youtu.be/TT3pc3co9sU

https://youtu.be/Mn8z776Jkcc
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: samandothers on September 11, 2017, 09:27:01 AM
Congratulations, long journey.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: thechknhwk on September 11, 2017, 07:39:57 PM
Beautiful barn, you've done a great job. 8)
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 11, 2017, 08:56:08 PM
Thank you guys, it's been slow going but worth it all the way so far.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 18, 2017, 08:24:16 AM
Here's a milling video from yesterday.  Another long day but a good day.

https://youtu.be/dIN_MpE_9TE
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 19, 2017, 09:17:13 AM
As promised, we have a new scarf joint to layout and here's the how to, no time lapses in this one.

https://youtu.be/672V7Pl4vqI
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 20, 2017, 11:17:06 AM
This is the cutting of an edge-halved and bridled scarf joint.  This is the joint we laid out in the last video.  This one is super easy to cut.
https://youtu.be/kHqFm3LtIe8
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 22, 2017, 09:32:35 AM
Test fitted the scarf for the top plate last night.  It went pretty well for the first one.  So much easier to cut that scarf than the ones in my ties.  The rest I'll cut on the saw mill, cut the time in half.  This joint sure will solve my setting the top plate dillema.
https://youtu.be/914H-qa_PPw
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 27, 2017, 06:18:47 AM
Hard to make progress a couple of hours at a time but we are chopping away at it.  Here's another one doing our edge halved and bridled scarf joint on the band mill.
https://youtu.be/d-OSttNeUEo
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: fishfighter on September 29, 2017, 06:38:15 AM
You doing some fine work there.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on September 29, 2017, 09:16:12 AM
Almost have this side of top plates ready to go.  It goes slow at a couple of hours a night but any progress is its own reward.

https://youtu.be/e50xlfNTkCM
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on October 02, 2017, 01:45:14 PM
Spent a day in the woods with the boy dropping trees for our timber frame project.  It was a good day and a safe one too, can't ask for more than that.  Enjoy the show.
https://youtu.be/1NToxPoqIaU
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: michaelh_rley on December 18, 2017, 04:37:52 PM
Quote from: jimdad07 on August 04, 2015, 11:46:10 PM
...I was all over the place with design ideas...

There's a useful tool https://hearthstonehomes.com/log-home-style-guide for anyone else experiencing the plight of the design aspect of their timber frame/log home projects.

It will get a lot of questions out of the way and can be a good reference for materials and pricing once you start the project also.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 18, 2017, 05:08:52 PM
Thanks for sharing.  I need to update this thread but just have not had time in a long time.
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: tburch on December 19, 2017, 12:49:44 PM
Your son is a hoot in that video! 
Title: Re: 28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend
Post by: jimdad07 on December 19, 2017, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: tburch on December 19, 2017, 12:49:44 PM
Your son is a hoot in that video!
He's my buddy.