The Forestry Forum

Would you be interested in taking a solid center of a log and sawing it into a 7x9 x 8-1/2 feet (or maybe 9 feet) and getting $40?

If so, you might prepare now to learn the quality requirements for ties and who might be buying them in your area, etc.  Just about any hardwood will be OK, but a premium is paid for oak.  My crystal ball says that this will happen soon...even with competition from other materials.

Why will the price go up?  Three years ago we had about 1000 trains a year that hauled crude oil to refiners.  Now, in 2012 we had an estimated 20,000 trains with about 118 cars and a cargo worth about $700,000.  Rail shipment (mainly in the Midwest) means that we do not have to build a pipeline, plus trains are faster than a pipeline.  Environmentalist do not want another pipeline, but they also are worried (rightly so) about a rail accident and spill.  The RRs are now inspecting their tracks, changing ties, adding more ties per mile, replacing old ties, and so on to make the tracks (main line) as safe as possible.  Ties will be in short supply and require 6 months or so to dry before treating.  [Most oil shipments will be in the Midwest.  Coal shipments are decreasing due to low natural gas prices, but much of that is further east, so that doesn't help the Midwest tracks.  See Aug 2011 Sawmill & Woodlot for an article about ties.]

Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM


Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

I did not know that. :)

Lots of hp and kw's, this would be good news to many people if it were to happen.  I just wonder about the newer concrete ties that have been going in place of the wood ties.

There is a concrete tie plant right beside of the Koppers yard where I sell ties. Koppers has an interest in it. I guess they work in some places but not others. I don't know the limitations.

On another thread there was talk of timber going up substantially in price. If so, then ties will have to go up. If a good sound oak log, 12-13 inches at 10'. are going at say 50 cents a foot, you will have $20.00-$25.00 in the log. An oak tie here and now is bringing $21.00 plus $1.00 haul bill. A tie would have to be in the $40.00 range just to stay where we are now.

That is a fact, a perfect tie log will range in the $13.00 range, leaving a $9.00 dollar profit from the tie, with an avg, of $8.00 dollars on the outside lumber to the flooring mills, $17.00 dollars profit in an ideal situation. Not all situations are ideal, as most of us know.  I have paid over $30.00 dollars for a log, and barely broke even after the tie was out and the boards graded.  $40.00 bucks a tie would surely help. I just have to wonder if the mills get all the profit, or the loggers and the owners then get their fair share as well.   As I have always said and believe, it is strickly a volume base market in every regard,  david

their still laying pipeline all across the country. Their slowly dropping a 6 to 8 in tube down the hwy a few miles from here.   I assume its in the network from north dakota to st paul.
I do know of a few lines running from the gulf  up the center to the production plants here.   I dont see filling a tank, then pumping it out into a rail car, then running it down the tracks to pump it out into another tank ect is more cost effective than just throwin it down a tube under pressure and its flowing all the time.

The rail tracks about 4 miles from here has a train on them every 10 to 15 minutes.  and yes I here one comming now  >:(   winter time sound travels  a lot.

We have a train track going through our property and I have definitely noticed an increase in tanker trains.  Also saw some "green" energy go by recently
Windmill towers

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16789/IMG00834-20121203-1226.jpg)
and blades 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16789/IMG00855-20121210-1132.jpg)

Nick

My partners family operates 3 tie buying yards in addition to their mills. Their tie order for 2013 was upped by 200,000 ties over 2012. We are adding equipment, stumpage, and recruiting new suppliers of both sawn ties and tie logs.The demand is there to put some pressure on pricing which probably won't move much until the demand is not met. I'd say the The Doc is right on target. Loggers and sawmillers both would be well advised to be prepared for increased demand and pricing for tie logs and sawn ties. Those not producing for the market will be competing with it for logs. Not sure enough loggers have survived to meet any increase in demand for logs.

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM


Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

That is good news about the ties, RRs and some jobs as well.
As for train engines,
I was told that there are several electrical motors, in some cases one per axle.  Also, the diesel in them is rebuildable one cylinder at a time as needed. 

How much more capacity do tie yards have to treat ties?  The one thing I've always noticed on tie prices in my area is that it followed the 1 Com red oak price.  When 1 Com goes up, so do tie prices.  When it drops, so do tie prices. 

I'am no authority on ties,or anything else for that matter,but like milk prices they will be just above the break even point.In outher words the tie buyers will pay the absolute lowest price to get the quantity of ties they need.Supply and demand in its purest form. Frank C.

Something else to consider. a 7x9 tie 9 ft long translates to .85 cents a board foot at 40 bucks a tie. Imagine what that will do to pallet lumber prices. Think I mentioned somewhere about pallet lumber up a bunch coming out of Canada. If you could sell the jacket boards for up in that area, that is probably better than flooring by a bunch. We don't cut for the tongue and groove flooring industry, but I know we have started to push margins more on trailer decking (green). My guess is, the flooring companies will have to tag along to get lumber bought. Then you have to figure what it will do to regular kiln dried grade lumber. Wasn't long ago I was buying Select red oak for a 1.05 or better.

We have a rail line go by our old sawmill place. They have new ties everywhere laying along side the main track. I don't think they haul oil, but haul a lot of grain and coal. The railroad wanted to haul in some asphalt they were taking out of the crossings. I said yes. Asked about getting the used ties. They said they had some company that took all of them. A day later, much to my surprise, they hauled over a load of ties. I was suprised at how good the quality was. They are definitely shelling out the bucks upgrading the lines. That would be U.P.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=54&articleid=20121229_54_E6_CUTLIN523231

If I recall correctly, the tie buyer said they replace those ties about every 17 years on average.  In high use areas, that is a lot more.  It seems that the oil shipment is localized.  I don't recall seeing that many railcars going through our locale being oil shipments.  If there is an upgrade, it wouldn't be covering the entire rail system. 

There may well be a rise in tie prices, but doubled?  The last time they needed more ties, they just went to adding more species.  Ash was added, then taken off.  For years, you couldn't sell an ash tie. 

Pallet prices may push ties, but I think you would need another $50/Mbf to impact the tie market.  At that price, it might become more practical to put in a scragg mill and utilize the smaller diameters that are going into either pulp or firewood. 

Markets get dragged in a lot of different directions.  It all depends on where the investment goes and how long markets can be sustained.

Florida, interesting read, thanks for that link,  david

The one thing I've never gotten about the tie market is why the seller pays the shipping when everything else you buy the buyer always pays shipping.
The ice breaker I was on in the CG had Fairbanks Morse diesel electric engines, I was told they were also used on locomotives.

Pulpwood in my area is bought in zones.  The further away you are, the more you get.  Basically the same idea with ties. 

Quote from: GDinMaine on December 30, 2012, 04:51:58 AM

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM


Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

That is good news about the ties, RRs and some jobs as well.
As for train engines,
I was told that there are several electrical motors, in some cases one per axle.  Also, the diesel in them is rebuildable one cylinder at a time as needed.

the diesel (actually runs on bunker C) is in the back of the unit and turns a huge DC generator, the motors on each axle are called Traction Motors. Train cars each have their own airbrakes but the locomotives also have what is called a Dynamic brake which basically amounts to a polarity switch and rheostat. They run reverse polarity to the traction motors to provide opposing force relative to the direction of travel. acts sort of like a jake brake.

I think ties are much too heavy for this particular back.

That's the reason you hire the younger guys, use their backs.

I can hear those Traction Motors winding but I doubt tie prices will get to 40 anytime soon.  Everything is going up and up.

How much wood is in a 7x9 x 8 foot tie?  If we were to saw the tie into 4/4 lumber, we would get 6 pieces of 9" x 8' which would be 36 bf.  and most would be  no.2 Common.  If they sold for $1.20 per bf, that would be the same as selling the tie at $40, using about $80 per MBF sawing cost.

I am suggesting that the demand for ties will be high enough that it will increase the price of No.1 Common.  Remember that we now have only about half of the sawmills we had in 2004 ( production capacity, not numbers).

It is not too likely that NEW pipelines will be built for crude oil.  Hence, with demand for more crude, the RRs will have the business...in fact already do.  Rail transport is faster than a pipeline.

It is my understanding that concrete is not yet used for high weight train rails.

Most ties, except in wet areas, are replaced due to mechanical wear...spikes come loose, tie plates cut into the wood, etc.  and so on a main line, ten years life is a good life.

Incidentally, one full tank car weighs about 263,000 pounds.  It would take six semi trucks to haul the same amount of oil.

I was quoted 1 common White oak at 35 cents a couple of weeks ago by a local mill, they were wanting to buy mine. That would take a great big jump to get the price up to $1.20, not counting the 2 and 3 common. I would like to sell some ties for $40.00, but, I am not holding my breath.

Quote
It is not too likely that NEW pipelines will be built for crude oil.

I disagree, I am a pipe welder and I believe the projections for the next decade include an enormous expansion of the North American pipeline system, enough so that I am putting together a welding rig to take advantage of upcoming pipeline work. I am not a particular fan of either the Keystone or Northern Gateway projects, but there are many others that I will be happy to work on.

QuoteIt is my understanding that concrete is not yet used for high weight train rails.

both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific started experimenting with concrete ties back in the 1970's, (when I was a brakeman) they are in extensive use on both mainlines today. I am not up to speed on the exact specifics but I do know that concrete has a solid hold on much of this market now.

Don't get me wrong, I understand you probably have forgotten more about Forestry than I will ever know. ;)

I don't know where the price of ties/lumber is going, but I didn't buy my mill doubting that it would be well worth the price at some point, then again I could be wrong.

Every big operator that fails in BC opens the door for a lot of little guys, at the same time the beetle kill problem has resulted in projected annual cut allowances that will soon be dropping by upwards of 80% in many areas of BC. All I can say is that, right now, I'm glad I don't have to rely on my mill to eat.

http://www.woodmarkets.com/files/12-12-07%20WM%202013%20-%20Press%20Release%20FINAL.pdf


This sounds good .

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 30, 2012, 12:04:34 PM
It is my understanding that concrete is not yet used for high weight train rails.

Twenty years ago I watched BNSF convert from wood ties to concrete on their mainline from the coal fields of Montana/N Dakota into the south.

We lived close to the tracks in N.  Missouri and on many winter nights we could hear the coal trains running.  Sometimes from 4 to 6 trains per hour.  I don't know how the weight of a coal train compares to a tank train, but probably weighs more than my F-350 with a load of wood ;D.

I was told one time concrete ties were cheaper, with less maintenance than wood.  The down side was the roadbed required a lot more ballast and was harder to maintain.

Of course maybe BNSF was just doing a test as a way to find out the most economical way to run a railroad. :D

I remember 1 Com red oak up at about $1/bf.  Ties didn't approach $40, but were closer to about $25.  I don't see anything that is going to pressure the red oak market.  Its out of sync with its cycle.  I remember when red oak was a low value hardwood.  I also remember when maple was considered a low value hardwood.  Those markets run opposed to each other.

At what price do plastic ties become attractive?  Right now they're more expensive than wooden ties.  Double the price on wood, and those green, recycled ties become attractive.  They also hold up much better than wooden ties, and in 50 years would reduce the costs of track maintenance by 2/3. 

You're still looking at a localized market.  Ties didn't double in price when they started hauling coal out of Wyoming.

looked up concrete ties
rocla   has been making concrete ties for 50 years. It seems everwhere I have been ties were wood. Must be the fact lots of trees, and people that have mills will work for what money they can get during the slow time.

One reason for higher tie prices is that a spill of coal or lumber is not the same as a crude oil spill from a track or tie failure.

Well now I'm not so sure the locomotive diesels actually run on bunker c or not .That's usually reserved for large marine diesels .
Fact of the matter the large diesels on the fleet type submarines  were at the time essentually locomotive engines and they ran on number 2 diesel .They were around 1400 -1600 HP a piece GMC V-16 278A or Fairbanks Morse 10 38 D 8 1/8 ,depending .
Of course locomotive engines at this time are larger than those .

The locomotive dynamic braking is done through huge resitors which are in the overhead of the locomotive which dissipate the load of the DC traction motors that essentualy become generators when an over hauling load is placed on them .

QuoteThe locomotive dynamic braking is done through huge resitors which are in the overhead of the locomotive which dissipate the load of the DC traction motors that essentualy become generators when an over hauling load is placed on them .

That does make sense. I'm no electrical engineer, just regurgitating what I was told by Railroad engineers and the guys that worked in the shops.

So, they cut power to the traction motors and then run the generated electricity through resistors to create a load, or braking force, against the drive axles? where does all the heat go? I know there were a lot of electrical panels at the back of the room where the engineer and brakeman ride. big cables, like welding machines. The hoghead had a lever, similar to and close to the throttle, that he could regulate the strength of the dynamic brake.

iirc the engines produced equivalent of 3000hp. I think the pistons are about 18" diameter.

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 30, 2012, 09:55:37 PM
One reason for higher tie prices is that a spill of coal or lumber is not the same as a crude oil spill from a track or tie failure.

Most all of the chemicals and radioactive material gets hauled by rail.  Its deemed to hazardous to haul by truck.  What would be the results of a track failure with that material?  Why hasn't that pushed tie prices higher?

Quote from: GDinMaine on December 30, 2012, 04:51:58 AM

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM


Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

That is good news about the ties, RRs and some jobs as well.
As for train engines,
I was told that there are several electrical motors, in some cases one per axle.  Also, the diesel in them is rebuildable one cylinder at a time as needed.

I work as a conductor for Norfolk southern and yes each axle is powered by what is called an electric traction motor and can be cut out or in as needed. Rail traffic is projected to increase every year our line is constantly being upgraded and improved I have never seen any concrete ties on any line we run on but I have seen them on Csx lines

I've read that concrete ties are workable only in environments that are not subject to vibration. A few years ago, BNSF had laid concrete ties just south of me in Cass county. This year they re-replaced them with wood ties. Many businesses around here have been picking up truckloads of concrete ties and reusing them as stops in their parking lots.  ;).

I regret to say that a few evironuts from Bold Nebraska managed to turn what was a local issue into a national embarassment, causing the XL pipeline construction to be delayed. TransCanada has since proposed a new route through the state along with a few other changes that have been informally approved by all relavent parties. The people at Bold Ne are still wailing and gnashing their teeth, but rest assured, the pipeline will be built. Our own Warren Buffet, who owns BNSF, has been the force behind much of the opposition to the pipeline. you can imagine why. ;)

as long as demand for ties can be met, I don't believe prices will move that much. the minute demand exceeds supply, thats when prices will jump.

periodically I get stuck at RR crossings. I have plenty of time to stare hypnotically at the train as it passes. some time ago, I noticed that if you stare at one tie only, you will see it flex downward 1/2" or more as each axle passes over it. I thought at first it was just that tie, but every tie I have stared at since does the exact same thing. :P

I could be profitable at $40 a tie. And if the demand increases, does that mean that the lower quality ties might be bought at a reduced price and used for things like sidings, and less critical applications?

Increasing rail integrity safety for oil spill prevention-- does that mean they need to replace the ties more often, or obtain better quality ties, or put them closer together, or what? If the demand increases will they be less picky on the quality? Or do they need to maintain that same quality and stringent specifications, regardless?

Maybe the ones that don't meet the specs can go for landscaping timbers.

Also, I am guessing that the increase in rail traffic has a lot to do with the high cost of petroleum fuel. Trains do compete with trucks for freight, and trains are far more efficient than trucks. Dedicated load trucking *may* be faster than rail traffic, but trains use far less fuel and labor per ton of freight moved, per mile. Railroads, unlike trucking companies, are directly responsible for the railroad surface they travel on. Trucking companies do pay taxes which support the highway maintenance, but they are not directly responsible to pay for it. What's more, the trucking companies do not have any direct control (and little indirect control) on the improvement of the roads. Rail traffic can not go everywhere, and any time you have to transfer the load to a different container or conveyance, you lose efficiency. In many cases, trains do not go directly to the end user's location, so the load has to be transferred to trucks. Therefore, loading it directly on a truck and by-passing the train does get you a certain modicum of efficiency you don't have if you have to transfer the load.

But the higher that fuel prices are, my understanding is, the more advantageous rail traffic becomes versus trucking. As long as motor fuel prices are high, rail traffic will continue to be strong. There will be pressure to run more cars per day, and to manage to get the freight closer and closer to its final destination by rail. If high fuel prices persist, and even increase, it could possibly lead to more rails being laid, even side-by side in some cases, to increase rail traffic. More depots / marshalling yards might be needed, and more businesses already located near a railroad might consider installing a siding. More passing sidings might be necessary too, if main lines increase their traffic volume.

Related to all this, is the construction matting market. I've been approached once about building matting. Particularly in parts of the continent where new oil production is taking place, construction matting is important. Unless the evironuts shut down the oil production, we can only assume that if oil prices remain high, the widespread oil production will continue, and also continue to spread into new areas that have never produced oil commercially before.

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 30, 2012, 10:12:03 AM
Pulpwood in my area is bought in zones.  The further away you are, the more you get.  Basically the same idea with ties.

I'm not sure if it's zoned for public land here, but we have had zoned prices for 30 years on private woodlot wood delivered as primary forest products.

On the train thing and ties, it's happening here. The reason is they never did complete the national pipeline further east than Montreal. They talk about every few years but it's always been non economical. The funny part of that is that the largest oil refinery in the country is in Saint John, NB. So Irving, who is 100 % private so no one to the south knows who they are,  65% of New England petroleum is delivered by them. Anyway they run trains west with lumber to all the Home Depots and bring oil east. Oil from the west is $20/barrel cheaper than in the middle east. I think it is more likely that those situations that will demand more ties. That being said, I would not be counting my fortunes in ties.

In Sault Saint Marie, Ontario they have a huge wind farm on a ridge line with wind blowing off Superior and they have two 150 acre solar farms. There is all kinds of land up there because the city doesn't grow that fast. It's also a steel town with lots of fabrication. I have a friend that worries about isolation and bad weather since the city is miles from anywhere. The city has been there a long time and they haven't perished yet. ;) Also, like here, they know how to move snow. ;D

Quote from: rmack on December 30, 2012, 10:23:19 PM
That does make sense. I'm no electrical engineer, just regurgitating what I was told by Railroad engineers and the guys that worked in the shops.

So, they cut power to the traction motors and then run the generated electricity through resistors to create a load, or braking force, against the drive axles? where does all the heat go? I know there were a lot of electrical panels at the back of the room where the engineer and brakeman ride. 

There are huge cooling fans that blow air over the big resistors located in the roof of the locomotive .

BTW the locomotive also has air brakes too .

It used to be that it took a 5 man crew to operate a train which I think has been reduced to three .Engineer ,conductor and I think a brakeman .I'm not positive but I think in addition there used to be a signalman and a fireman .

I'm not so sure about an 18" piston either .FWIW the pistons on that 10 cylinder oppossed Fairbanks-Morse which was 20 pistons were 8 1/8" . The largest locomotive engine I've seen was a V20 Electo motive which is a division of General motors and it was around 5,000 HP .I'm pretty sure Caterpillar makes some large railroad engines also .

If I'm not mistaken it seems to me the largest of the over the road power units are something like 200 tons .

To the subject there used to be a creosote works here locally .Talk about stink ,my goodness .They shipped ties and power poles by the train load .It's a pole yard now for power line supplies .Oddly though on that same road are both a pallett works plus a log yard for high grade venneer logs most of which are exported .

The main supplier of electric motors is GE (known as GE Rail in the past) and they control 70% of the market today.  (Their first diesel-electric locomotive was in 1928, with the ones similar to what we know today coming in 1936.  Today's engines are very efficient and quiet.)  They are starting a new plant near Dallas, TX because of the increased demand.  Their original main plant is in Erie, PA.  So, if more motors, then more trains and, as most ties are replaced due to wear, with more trains there will be more wear and so there will be more ties needed. 

Although 7x9x100" was the most popular, we are seeing a trend to 7x9x9' for heavy loads on fast train rails.  Even longer ties are need for switches (called switch ties).  Tie treatments with creosote is still the main, with very strict requirements on the amount of treatment and depth of penetration, etc.  Ties are usually air dried at the treating plant for 6 months before treating, but this is variable.  There are also strict rules on tie quality, especially with respect to the ends being solid.

Even if ties double in cost to the railroad, it does not double the cost of treating and installing the tie.  I wonder what the total cost of removing the old tie and installing the new tie is?  Sure it will be considerable expense, but it is not as big an increase percentage wise as we might think.

There is plenty of timber growing. We have 4 or 5 years of reduced harvest and even before, we were growing  a lot more than was being harvested.
Lots of logging equipment went to the scrap yard.  New equipment costs prevent many from starting a logging company.  As has been said, logging will be a bottleneck tending to keep supply down.   Log price should go up if demand goes up, but standing timber prices probably won't go up much as there is a lot of it out there. 
Sawmills can quickly double production by adding a second shift if they can get the labor.  So log supply is the big bottleneck in my book.
If they can't get enough ties, prices will go up, so Doc, it makes sense that there may be a new normal coming.

QuoteThere are huge cooling fans that blow air over the big resistors located in the roof of the locomotive .

now that you bring it up, I remember those round grates on the top of the units.

QuoteIt used to be that it took a 5 man crew to operate a train which I think has been reduced to three .Engineer ,conductor and I think a brakeman .I'm not positive but I think in addition there used to be a signalman and a fireman

In my day there were 4, Engineer, Conductor, and 2 Brakemen... one head end and one tail end. I believe the firemen disappeared with the onset of the diesel/electrics.

The brakemen were the signalmen and handled all the grunt work of switching and repairs (changing knuckles etc) enroute. By the time I started there were 2 way radios but most of the protocols were still in place from pre-radio days. The communication system that they had in the early days was quite elaborate using flags and whistles, you really had to know your stuff or bad things could happen from miscommunication. I almost got killed 3 times (twice weather related, once communication) the third time I got hurt such that it took a few months to heal up, after that I came to the conclusion that my chances were  all used up so I headed to the forests of the west coast for something different. :)

I believe there are usually just two people now, both on the head end, Engineer and Brakeman/Conductor... no more cabooses around here. btw, interesting tidbit, those cabooses were like year round rv's. they had electrical generators, water tanks, fridge/stove/sink toilet, 4 bunks and plenty of wool blankets. They also ran for 6-8 weeks on a charge of fuel... also carry overs from the days when the train crew could be stranded for extended periods I guess.

I have heard that the concrete ties require more maintenance (rail grinding) but their use seems to be expanding in spite of the issues of heavy trains and frozen ground, and that's going on in the Selkirk and Rocky Mountain ranges. Some very heavy trains on steep grades.

All the same, it seems like betting on wooden ties is like anchoring your fortunes to an increasingly obsolete product. As has already been said, the more the price increases, the greater the likelihood of railroad companies switching to concrete or something else that doesn't need periodic replacing.

I wonder what the manufacturers of plastic ties do to keep the sunlight off them?

Bigger demand for rail would not be a bad thing for the continent. However, I'm wondering if demand for more locomotives is to replace old ones. Back east here they have torn up track and are about to eliminate rail entirely into the Maritimes. All except the Irvings, who bought out NB Rail Road to get all the timber lands in the 40's. We have miles and miles of old rail beds they now call NB trails. Once gone, they will never be back. It would take a world war before CP or CN would come back. And some of the line they never owned anyway, they leased it from the Irvings. All their mills have rail running right beside them as with the refinery. Most of the other mills and food processors abandoned rail 30 years ago. The worst move they ever made. So with the big players not wanting business it was not economical to maintain a rail going in the hole. We had some floods in the 80's that took out some old 125 year old bridges, so that sealed the deal and by then the old rail sidings were falling into the ground.

I'm kinda eying this rail push like I do with all the ship building Canada has committed to for the next 30 years. Once we replace those old relics everything shuts down like it did after WWII and back into the doldrums.

I have serious doubts that there will be any such increase, or at least the ability to project it if you are using transportation of crude oil as the basis. When it comes to energy, and the building of new infrastructure for such, I think the smart money goes to building new infrastructure for alternative energies. Namely natural gas. Sure, there is a big debate on the dangers of fracking, but I think that is going to all be worked out, and natural gas will be the priority, at least for the rest of our lifetimes. Natural gas is not going to be train freighted.  Just my dos centavos.  :)

Ties are almost always replaced with a machine now. The machine drives over the tie they want to replace. They pull the spikes, old tie is pushed out from under the rail, new tie is pushed in, new rail plates are installed, spikes are driven back in.

I "used" to be a rail buff, before I discovered all this sawmill and logging stuff :D

Spent many days search and photographing various trains and locomotives, before I got a job. While most kids were playing racing and war video games, I was playing a railroad simulator called "Microsoft Train Simulator" when I wasn't chasing trains. I used to be able to name various brands and models of locomotives like I can name chainsaws and sawmills now.

Crossing the Salmon River.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Trestle-Drummond.jpg)

Indeed the low price and availability of natural gas is proving quite devastating for the WV coal industry in the past 5 years.

We do know that the number and size of oil trains has increased in the past two years up to about 12,000 in 2012.  This increase more than offsets the decrease in coal shipments.  And due to the high cost of a spill, also means more ties on these new oil routes.  We can argue about the eventual price for a tie, but it seems that the increase in demand is already a certainty.  And if the Arab countries cut oil production even a little bit....

We also have ethanol plants using corn and they ship the ethanol via RR.  As we use more ethanol (because we drive more or because the government mandates it), more tankers, which means more wood ties.

The oil refineries are making gasoline, heating oil for those not close to a natural gas line, and many other petro-chemical feedstocks that natural gas cannot replace, at least in the short term.  U.S. demand for oil in 2012 was an increase over the past several years, even with our efficient cars and more natural gas.

BNSF is indeed a leader in Midwest shipping and I have heard second hand that they do not like concrete ties; so again, a strong indicator of the role of wood.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

Yup, and an amazing part of that is all the plastics. Look around you. The food we eat, cars, the health care products and dispensories and even the house is full of the stuff.

Quote from: tyb525 on December 31, 2012, 12:13:41 PM
I used to be able to name various brands and models of locomotives like I can name chainsaws and sawmills now.

Me too... But it was the ones they powered by dihydrogen monoxide gas...  :new_year:

I guess this is one of those things that only time will tell and would fall under forecasting using the principles of the Chaos Theory also known as the "butterfly effect".  :) (If a butterfly flaps it's wings in  Africa, it may result in a Hurricane in Florida)

Let's just say that I am not to go borrowing any money to buy tie logs expecting them to go up. I have heard the buyer beg for more ties but not raise the prices any.

I agree with Jeff...speculating on the price of ties is only marginally more certain than speculating on the price of oranges 12 months hence. However, for those already selling in the tie market, it may be prudent to perhaps retool  your operations such that you can quickly ramp up production if prices spike. things like sourcing additional logs, streamlining the sawing process and planning on 1 or 2 additional strong backs able to step in pt time. perhaps the need to ramp up never materializes. and if thats the case, nothing really lost. but if it does, I know that I'd want the ability to ramp up within the week and take full advantage of any volatility in the market. not planning ahead may cost a month or two in being able to meet increased demand and of course the price may fall off again as supply catches up. Just a few words of wisdom based on my unparalelled ignorance of the tie markets.  ;)

As I think Ron mentioned, in the past for us, when we cut ties, they didn't boost the price, but changed the specs on species when they had a larger demand. 

I can remember a tie order from over 25 years ago that nobody that was at the mill will forget, and especially the guys on the green-chain that day I KNOW will never forget. We had cut an entire load of 7 by 9 ties. They were on the truck. The buyer called and said he needed that order of 6 by 8s to be delivered that next day. Someone, somewhere screwed up, and I'm sure it was the bossman or we would not have ever done what we did. We had used every tie log we had to get this order, and were not expecting more suitable logs within the time they wanted this load. They wanted this load bad.  The boss didn't want to do it, but he needed to keep this buyer happy. We had to unload that truck, and start putting the lifts of ties over the debarker conveyor and on to my log deck, un-band the bundle, then roll them out flat on the deck. All I had to do was roll the ties on to the mill with the log turner, take a swipe off one side, take a swipe off the other side, and send it down. If you have ever seen any video of my running our mill, you know how a tie was coming down that line, one about every 30 seconds. These ties were almost all white oak.  We had three guys on on the chain trying to keep up on the stacking.  I was the great evil that day, but I was just doing as I was told. We did get the load back on the truck and to the buyer's yard on time, but it about killed 3 guys doing it.

Jeff, nice story, I hate recutting ties, I guess someone had to bite it, sounds like a 2K loss plus labor, ouch, at least you all got it done 8) job security for sure,   :new_year:

About a mile and a half south of me is a railroad that used to be the New York Central .What it is called these days I haven't a clue .Peridocally they will stage what I call steel trains .Some with long sections of welded rail and some with double flat cars of beams .They all  seem to be headed eastward so I suppose the steel might come from some place like Gary Indiana .

They move those heavy loads usually on the weekends with 4 power units .So I assume there is some rail upgrade going on somewhere on the east coast because they've been doing so for about two years .

The irony with that is it wasn't so many years ago many of the main line roads like the Erie Lakawana were basically abandoned  and the steel , ties ,ballast rock plus the real estate was sold off .Fact I bought hard limestone ballast for a buck and a quarter a ton ,about 400 tons .That was in 1978 -1980 .

I think one question that might help, that I can't find an answer to, is what is the total cost of a tie after delivery to the treatment plant, to being installed. That is, what percentage is the cost of the tie itself when delivered in raw form to the treatment plant.
I suspect the cost of the wood isn't that great. By the time a tie gets treated, delivered, the old tie knocked out, the new one put in, plated, and rock put down around it, it may be the cost of the wood isn't that great compared to the total cost.

Can't add much bout the ties, but i can add to the part about loco pistons. here is a pic of my size 11 foot next to a locomotive piston from a emd 3500 horsepower sd50-2.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30287/image.jpg)

Yea, but Kansas, sometimes it is the places that can save you a dime versus a buck that makes the difference in the end. Like one pickle on a McDonald hamburger versus two.

Quote from: Jeff on December 31, 2012, 05:37:08 PM
Yea, but Kansas, sometimes it is the places that can save you a dime versus a buck that makes the difference in the end. Like one pickle on a McDonald hamburger versus two.

:)

This will give you an idea of the bore sizes on EMD engines .
http://www.sdrm.org/roster/diesel/emd/history/

Someone mentioned a 16" bore but that most likely would be something like a large marine diesel .M.A.N. of Germany builds some huge ones .

Everything you ever wanted to know about railroad ties, even predictions of usage base of industry surveys

http://www.rta.org/specifications (http://www.rta.org/specifications)

Looking at forecast for the future not much of an increase of demand is seen by the industry.

http://www.rta.org/assets/docs/SeptemberOctober2012/marketoutlook.pdf (http://www.rta.org/assets/docs/SeptemberOctober2012/marketoutlook.pdf)

Quote from: Al_Smith on December 31, 2012, 06:12:02 PM
This will give you an idea of the bore sizes on EMD engines .
http://www.sdrm.org/roster/diesel/emd/history/

Someone mentioned a 16" bore but that most likely would be something like a large marine diesel .M.A.N. of Germany builds some huge ones .

glad we got to the bottom of this one. I doubt you could get this kind of a discussion anywhere else on earth.

I'll get my coat. :)

I worked a few winters at a ski area running compressors for snow making. There were 7 1200 cfm electrics, as well as several IR 1200 and 1600 diesels. I never got to run them, but there were two Fairbanks-Morse sub engines that I was told were "FD-38" engines. 10 cyl., 20 piston. 1200 KW, 1600 HP.

CN Rail said THIS (http://www.cn.ca/en/media-news-acquire-locomotives-20120322.htm) back in March 2012.

Back in September 2012 they said THIS (http://www.cn.ca/en/customer-news-cn-tests-natural-gas-locomotives-20120927.htm). That they are retrofitting some locomotives with natural gas/diesel combination to run between Fort McMurray and Edmonton. The mix is 90 per cent natural gas, with 10 per cent diesel fuel for ignition. CN will provide two 4,300-horsepower SD70M-2 EMD locomotives for the test program.

We had ten Fairbanks-Morse 38 8 1/8 main engines on the ship I was on.  We ran them at 720 rpm.  They fed our two huge GE main motors that turned the props.  The Fairbanks are also 2 cycle engines.  Ours put out about 2000 hp each. 

I'm not exactly certain how Fairbanks -Morse labeled their engines but GMC also known as Electro Motive or EMD it was by cubic inches per cylinder .Like a 278 sub diesel or a big 710 locomotive diesel .

Getting off on a tangent but interesting .In the last part of 1970 I was stationed on a fleet sub home ported in New London Conn . Periodically they would scrap out old WW2 subs .Cut the tops out of them ,pull the diesels, tubes etc. Gillette razor would buy them all and haul them 4 at a time into Philly with tugs where they were cut up and remelted for razor blades because of the high carbon content of the pressure hulls .

Those big diesels would sit in a row of maybe 50 and periodically were sold off .I had heard but cannot confirm that a number of them were bought up by rail roads if for nothing else than to get cheap spare parts .At that time there were a number of rail roads still using those praticular models of engine which I'm about certain at this date not so many .

Rambling on under proper maintainance the life of those big engines is measured  in decades because they almost go forever between major overhauls .I had a chief engineman once tell me you actually wear the engine out my starting it because once it's up to operating temperature there is almost no wear unless it gets abused .

There are a few sounds I'll always remember .A John  -Deere twin under a heavy load ,A Harley running at speed and 4 big GMC marine diesels running at flank speed all in sync . ;D

All the diesel engines are special to me. The older and bigger, and slower, the better.  ;D

Nvfd3052,WOW!!! Why do your feet look so small??? And Why do you have a piston like that?

Quote from: Jeff on December 31, 2012, 05:37:08 PM
Yea, but Kansas, sometimes it is the places that can save you a dime versus a buck that makes the difference in the end. Like one pickle on a McDonald hamburger versus two.

You know, I never counted the pickles on a quarter pounder at McD's. And I think that quarter pound part is a lil suspect.

Over 90% of all ties used in the USA are wood. Not saying They wouldn't switch to concrete or plastic if the price went up too much. But let me ask this. What is the price of a tie now, compared to 5 or 10 or 20 years ago? Maybe the guys that have cut ties for years can answer that. I know costs have gone up, from diesel to electricity to you name it. I would bet my last dollar that freight the railroads charge to move a load has gone up. Lord knows they up our rent every year on the old place. Sometimes we have more leverage than we think we do. We haven't had it for the last 5 years. We are starting to get it. The railroads might change specs to use other species to try and keep the cost down. In some cases, it just means they will have to replace them more often.

I would like to know how the good Wooddoc can look into his crystal ball and know or think this is happening. That is, have you heard something? I understand your rationale. And what I am seeing on pallet lumber supports what you say. Can you elaborate a lil on that?

In 1997 I was getting $16.00 for a tie, paying $150.00 for tie logs. Now, $22.00 and paying $250.00 per thousand. Doyle rule. I figure with the way expenses have up I am making less money now.

I remember in the '80s they had us rationed on ties.  We could only produce so many, because there was low demand.  I don't recall prices, but $12-15 probably was right.  That all changed when Norfolk Southern bought out Conrail.  They did away with poor performing spur lines, took out beds that would no longer need maintenance, and upgraded their lines.  They bought a lot more ties than Conrail, and did the infrastructure investment that Conrail wouldn't do.  When they did, prices didn't double. 

Since that initial spurt, Norfolk Southern has maintained their rail system where its a stable input of ties.  You're not seeing drastic change in prices to accommodate supply.   A lot of chemicals run on those lines, and they run through populated areas.  Their lines are as good as needed to run crude safely.

It matters little if you cut ties or pallet stock.  Most times, those products are a very low profit item and sometimes a loss.  For mills that buy timber, quite often the value of the timber, logging and trucking are paid off in the high value logs.  For those that buy gatewood, the value is in the upper grade logs, so they wean them out of the product mix through lower prices.

Prices may go up with inflation.  I just don't see where the demand is going to be so great that it nearly doubles the price.  As prices increase, supply will help offset the increase, and bring an equilibrium market price.

To All:
I've been told that the first one to build a RR using concrete ties was Henry Ford.  All of his engineers could not figure out a way to keep the trains on the track, so they redid the RR with wood ties - problem solved.  In the 1970's the 85 mile railroad supplying coal to the Navajo Generating Station (5miles E of Page, AZ) was built with concrete ties.  Guess what - yup they changed them all out for wood ties because even at half loads and a quarter of the design speed they could not keep the trains on the track.  Wood has some give or shock absorber quality, Concrete does not.
Back in the '70's a coal freight was 4 engines with 100 100 ton coal cars.  I have no Idea what it is today.
Gerald

I've spent a lot of time on tugboats powered by electro- motive diesels. The one pictured in my avatar, Seaspan King, has a 16 cyl. EMD rated at 3000 hp. Some one else mentioned that the pistons and heads could be replaced separately, I've seen this done by a chief and second engineers in a couple of hours. The king's original EMD installed in 1969 was replaced in 2005 after hundreds of thousands of hours towing at full revolutions. The replacement was another "low hour" EMD that was taken out of the log ship Haida Monarch, when its was converted into a log barge. The Monarch's EMD was sent back to Winnipeg, Man. for a complete rebuilt first. The sound of a marine EMD winding up is very unique, and one that I will miss.

When I started sawing I sold a few bundles of ties for $24. 7x9-8'8''. Now they are $22.

PC

I see tie prices increasing because there are only half as many hardwood mills as there were four years ago, the demand for quality wood ties will increase as rail will become a more important transportation method (energy savings, for example), and environmental risks from a poor track become more expensive.  And a few other reasons mentioned previously. 

Now, in 2013 we are probably going to saw five billion BF of hardwoods; maybe six.  With the housing market increasing again, we will see increases in demand for hardwoods for cabinets, furniture, flooring, millwork, etc.  so, how can I get a sawmill to cut a red oak tie instead of lumber especially because production capacity is half of what it was?  Incidentally, most users of lumber cut their inventories to almost zero, so the demand will be for lumber ASAP.  This means that sawmill and similar people with lumber inventories will be sitting pretty and will likely increase the price because they can deliver ASAP and have a quality product.

I think the answer to make sure you saw ties is to increase the price of a tie so you will make ties and not as much lumber.  (Remember that six years ago red oak ties were $26 and $27, so $40 is just a 50% increase.  Also, remember that most of the ties that will be installed prior to July 1, 2013 have already been purchased and are air drying, etc.  so, what I am seeing is a big increase in demand to satisfy the needs in late 2013 and 2014.

Only time will tell if I am correct.  Incidentally, it is good to see so much discussion...way more than I had envisioned or saw in my crystal ball.

One point for someone not sawing ties, is that you cannot air dry them yourself, as they need a tie plate on the end and need to be graded.

I saw some of the ties made from the used tires on the side of the tracks and I asked the manager of the tie yard, that I haul to, if they were going to switch to the rubber ties. His responce was that the spikes in the rubber ties would work loose, so I did not need to get nervus just yet.

Nobody has a crystal ball the fondamental capacity reduction and increase popularity of the rail over other transportation are real. I work closely with the softwood industry in canada and the price of lumber is already up. Some are trying to restart but by the time they get all their duck in rows (fiber human resource, technology they wave will back on the downhill again) I think the cycle will be more spiky in the future so you have to avg the good and bad...

Regarding the tie we have a lumber/paper companies called Tembec that has developed a new type of wood fiber they are building a pilot plant right now and one of the product that they are going to manufacture is railway tie.... Lighter and stronger real wood.

Regarding the fact that hardwood mills are making money with other market than tie and pallet this not true anymore when the furniture industry went to Asia this was a whole game changer now there  more lucrative market with volume is hardwood floor but to be profitable you need to saw faster so the guys here have invested in softwood type sawing technology to saw and grade hardwood at much faster pace (curve sawing and full grading system...) last example has been Dion sawmills witch put 15 millions upgrade on their hardwood sawing process.  So there is less player but bigger one.....

I got to ride on a CSX owned ex-Conrail GP38-2, pulling just a few cars from one yard to another. Most of the lines around here the speed limit is about 10-15 mph, because the rails are so lightweight and the ties and ballast are in poor shape. Riding on the train, it sways side to side like a boat in a storm, but I didn't mind the rough ride, I was practically in heaven!

Sometimes I can spend hours not realizing it, watching really big old diesel engines on youtube. :)
I love the sound of an EMD SD40-2 winding up (V16 2-stroke)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpHWUFu-Go

Doc,
There have been folks saying to get ready, all the way back in 2009, for the markets to go up and that those who were in place would reap the benifits. I too dont know the extent of how much better it will get, but there are more buyers for my lumber in the last six months than in the previous 3 years. No real , buy all you can make kinds of deals but more going out the door than before. I know of a few that are locating good markets for their lumber.

If ties hit $40 then the lumber may be long on supply unless those prices go up and markets for lumber open as well.

I hope they do. I hope you are right. I will try to cut more ties if they go up and I am pretty well ready to make more, but I am not banking on it, not would I borrow money depending on ties to make it back for me. Still I hope it happens.
PC

After building pipelines for 3 decades I believe it is safe to say pipelines transporting natural gas/oil is more costs saving than train tankers. Pipelines (with proper maintenance), will provide 40-60 years of transportation. I agree we do hear of pipeline failures every now and then, but train derailments are much more numerous. A recent pipeline failure in WV has drawn national attention, and rightfully so. But, allow one train load of liquid natural gas to de-rail and the pipeline failure would seem small in comparison. A train of oil spilling into a major stream which supplies downstream drinking water would be a distaster, not to mention if the oil caught fire. Well maintained pipelines will always be safer than train tankers. Aside from this, I do hope you guys who cut ties find a good long term market.

Are high speed passenger trains  ever going to be a reality in North America? I've read that it takes a lot more ties per mile  to build that type of rail system, maybe that would increase demand?

I think the so called high speed rail system is a political football that gets resurrected about every 20 years and nothing is ever done about it .Passenger rail service certainly is not what it was even thirty years ago fact it's nearly nonexistant .

Of course at one time rail was about the only practical method to move oil then somebody,maybe J D Rockerfeller layed some pipe and the whole system changed .

Rail has changed though .At one time it might take 2 weeks got a box car from Cleveland to Lima Ohio and you could get it there by truck in 4-5 hours cheaper .

Conversely from info I've heard stuff coming to Wal -Mart from some Pacific rim country once it hits some west coast port can be on the shelf in your local Wally World  in 4 days any where in the country .

I don't know that it will. Maybe some densely populated areas. The problem is, we have so many wide open spaces. Plus we love our cars. Northeast and West coast further south, it would work. They have talked about putting one in from Los  Angeles to Vegas. But where in the world would you go from there?

Quote from: bugdust on January 01, 2013, 06:30:51 PM
..  allow one train load of liquid natural gas to de-rail and the pipeline failure would seem small in comparison. A train of oil spilling into a major stream which supplies downstream drinking water would be a disaster, not to mention if the oil caught fire. ...

I am not so worried about rail cars carrying long chain length crude oil.  A derailment of tank cars carrying crude oil, can catch fire, yes, can pollute ground water, yes, can create big head aches to clean up, yes.  However, I would NOT want be around any rail accident/incident dealing with any type of propane / liquified natural gas / very short chain hydro carbons.  The folks who have spent time in the fire service are familiar with the term "BLEVE", Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion.  Also known as Blast Leveling Everything Very Effectively.

The URL's below document some of the better known rail car BLEVE's in the U.S. in the past 40 years. 

Kingman, AZ 1973
http://kingmanhistoricdistrict.com/points-of-interest/firefighters-memorial-park/the-disaster-story.htm

Waverly, TN 1978
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waverly,_Tennessee_tank_car_explosion

Murdock, IL 1983
http://hazmatinfo.blogspot.com/2009/08/train-car-explosion-bleve.html

Most high speed passenger trains will not use wood ties.  The train weight is low, the rails are lighter weight, etc.   

I think I heard today that the Fort McMurry oil sands production increases 100,000 barrels every 6 months with all the projects on-gong. They said the pipeline system needs upgrading every 2 years to handle the flow. Third largest reserve in the world.

The US uses billions of gallons of crude each day and the volume is increasing.  So, increases in RR shipments can be expected.  With more shipments, ties will wear out faster, so, we need more wooden ties.  It is presently a lot easier to increase shipments via rail than to get all the permits, fight legal battles, etc. for a new pipeline.

The pipelines between Fort McMurray  and Edmonton DO get upgraded, regardless of what happens to the railroad. What happens elsewhere basically drives how they get the stuff beyond our borders whether rail or pipe, they are still after it. ;D Besides, from what I've heard of some of the pipeline, it often begins to go in, say in other states that create less impedance, and eventually the connections are made when the water settles and the concerns addressed. It's like buying logs, when you need them bad the specs change to get'r done. ;)

As part of the "fiscal cliff" deal passed in the Senate and then in the House of Representatives, there is An incentive for shortline and regional railroads to invest in track rehabilitation and improvements by providing a tax credit of 50 cents per dollar spent on those improvements.

Money well spent.

That tax credit is simply an extension of already existing tax credits they had. As near as I can tell. Yes, that will help the price of ties. It goes way out there, so railroads can make decisions over the next 6 years for upgrades.

Its interesting how tax credits, tax breaks, you name it, filter down across industries. Right or wrong, it is what it is. From those that own the short lines, to the people that need rail cars, to those providing ties and those that put them in, its a long list of people.

Investing in maintaining/upgrading infrastructure is the best money spent. It benefits everyone. Giving a $3 Billion company $15 M for a boiler is just welfare.

If I am reading correctly 45G Short Line Tax Credit had expired Dec 31 2011.  Last time it went into effect tie prices went up about 17% at the same time Red Oak was dropping in price.

I may be way off, but after thinking on this topic, I find it hard to believe that the tie buyers will pay any more than they are now, unless they have no supply,  Just saying everyone is trying to go b===s to the wall, and the tie yards are getting the ties, 

Like I said. Chaos theory.

A Far Fetched Example: This topic is the butterfly flapping it's wings. You all gear up ready to cut ties, you tell your peers, they gear up, word spreads, everyone is ready to cut ties, you tell your log suppliers, everyone is ready, Everyone is ready, Everyone is ready,  Ties come from everywhere. The price drops instead of going up.

Every time there is a little slow down everybody jumps on the tie bandwagon and gluts the market.

No doubt about it, those oil trains are rollin' down in this area. A mile long, maybe four locomotives per train, one or two trains per day; they roll in and pump-off direct to Mississippi river port and waiting oil barges, supposedly destined to a refinery in Memphis, about ninety miles south. Burlington main-line replaced their ties a couple years ago. New 'river-port' line was in place but oil receiver company is building a facility storage  also.

The irony was, the spur line over to the port was abandoned years ago by Burlington. The Port Authority had grants to reopen and build the line back, they did. The little town that the spur runs through has like six streets and two hi-way crossings, the rights-of-way was secured back to the Port from private ownership, hardly paying a single dime, possibly a tax-credit was offered the larger land owners. Anyway...tens of thousands of gallons of crude rolls through night and day, awaking the sleepy little town at all hours. No one gets paid for sleepless hours. :-\

Railroads really shine in the area of non time-sensitive freight hauling. I doubt if passenger rail will ever regain popularity, our society isn't capable of giving up our cars and going back to riding trains (maybe if pigs are flying..)

Even an industry producing a few boxcars can save money compared to shipping via semi, because those few boxcars will be added to a train of many other cars, and that train will make one trip to whatever city. Fuel and wear and tear saved, compared to a semi truck for each load.

Not to mention a single hi-cube boxcar can hold 2 times the volume, and 4 times the weight, of a 53' semi trailer. On average, a freight train can move a ton of freight 436 miles on 1 gallon of diesel.

We all know the railroads don't go to every town, so the best solution is to truck the freight to a yard to load onto a train, if rail isn't nearby.

Two of the larger companies I have dealt with haven't moved tie prices for nearly two years and do not believe any change in 2013.  Both are buying but classify business as flat but consistent.   A third company indicated they will not be buying any ties for at least 9 months. If you goggle RTA (railroad tie assoication) you find a lot of information but I doubt big changes will surprise anyone soon.

Seldom are things as good as it sounds and it is near impossible in this market to plan 2 years ahead of the game with any real conviction. The times when I did really well are in products or solutions based on the Sam Walton approach principle "swim up stream". Essentially when everyone is going in one direction you are better off going in the opposite direction.

Like others have said, even if the price did go up, it will soon be driven down by the flood of that will come into the market.

well,
     What about this idea? What if us smaller producers organized into a united association in order to stick together and strive to bargain for better prices not only from rr ties but other markets as well?

Where will the better prices come from??

The local University came up with an idea similar to that a few years ago. The only they could get us more money was by truckload quantities. You had to have everybody sawing the same species at the same time in hot weather, a central place to collect it, material handling and a grader. Also a broker to make the sale.

I tried that approach a long time ago, and even ran it past Woodmizer.  I was working with a Woodmizer owner at the time.  I was told that idea was tried and failed. 

Getting small producers together to form a cartel would be like trying to herd cats. 

It doesn't work because buyers like to pick favorites and that attitude will bust up any organization if the members are not committed strongly. You can argue on quality, but I've seen lots of times in produce that one will be favored even if his truck load of potatoes is half rotten. They (buyer) just cut the price or drop the grade on the good loads to make up for it. All kinds of games, and I'm sure I have not seen all the angles, but I've seen a lot. ;)

Quote from: WH_Conley on January 02, 2013, 09:52:09 PM
You had to have everybody sawing the same species at the same time in hot weather, a central place to collect it, material handling and a grader. Also a broker to make the sale.

Again all perhaps with good intentions but most likely never happen .

In the 60's the farmers tried that with the UFO and it became about as popular as a turd in a punch bowl .They had an idea to work as a coopertive but soon it was labeled a union .Union and farmers don't go together in the same sentence as I suspect sawmill operaters and unions wouldn't  either .

So you get this "broker " . What is a broker ,a middleman .Nothing ventured and everything gained .Has been and always will be. P.T. Barnum died a long time ago but his legacy lives on .I mean what is Donald Trump but a reincarnation of Phineas Taylor himself with a modern twist to things .

As an outsider looking in I'd think this idea of making a kings ransom from the sale of railroad ties might best be approached with a little caution .

Now think about this if there were the possibilies of making epic profits from the sale of ties the big players like Georgia Pacific and  Weyerhaeuser would be in the game .

I think the bottleneck for ties is the logger and the truck drivers needed to haul logs to the mill.  There is a projection of a huge shortage of truck drivers in the next few years.  There most likely be  a shortage of loggers too if log demand increase much. A lot of that old iron will never fire up again and it is expensive to buy new. If the mills find themselves short on logs, they will have to raise prices to keep them from going to the neighboring mill.  The railroads will notice that there is a shortage of ties.  They either raise prices or live with that shortage.
If there are no bottlenecks, then prices won't go up much as supply will quickly meet demand.

The Koppers yard where I sell just hired a new yard man. They only buy 2 days a week. The new guy will be there to unload every day, still just buying 2. There are a few larger mills that haul in there that have trouble making deliveries in the 2 days. I don't know if they expect any more volume or just wanting to get someone trained. The current buyer has been buying for them for 30 plus years. I was just guessing the new guy might be a replacement for when the current buyer retires.

Having worked for a farmers coop for years, I can tell you some of the problems. The first is, everyone knows everybody. That means the people running the scales at harvest time, the ones that work in the office, the regular workers. And usually there is some sort of relationship, marriage, kids, neighbors, or otherwise. The board members never wanted to say no. And they tried to do things on the cheap. I saw the fertilizer department go through manager after manager because they wouldn't pay up for the good ones. The bad ones will always stick around. And farmers, like anyone else, like continuity. Also, saw board members throw their weight around to get favors for themselves and family members.

That being said, its possible to have a good coop and have it benefit the members. A good manager and board makes all the difference. You might not get much better prices, but pooling loads, letting members know of lumber markets, who wants what, there could be a lot of good things. I belong to the Missouri Forest Products Assn because they provide needed auditing services for our heat treatment chamber for skids and pallets. I would consider them a Coop. We have also picked up some business from stuff they have emailed to us regarding what people want. But do remember it is illegal to band together to try and raise prices as producers. I doubt you would get enough sawyers together to make it happen anyway. You can band together as unions, or coops if you want to call them that, for employees to try and get higher wages. Producers, no.

I know this is way off the beaten path but I honestly saw a prototype of a poly lumber type tie about 5 years ago made from recycled plastic .They couldn't  figure out how to make it hold the spikes and the only method that worked was big screws to hold the rails in place .That praticular item being a prototype was a mixture of sawdust and plastic but that's the last I ever heard of it .

Never say never because anything that is possible will eventually happen if there's enough  profit in it .

Well with regards to price fixing weather it's illeagal or not it's a known fact it does happen in the real world .Now if anybody has to pay the piper over it just depends on ones politics it does appear .

You get into an area that has a specific number of peoples family names on  county roads or find the same on cornerstones of buildings you'll know exactly what I mean .

I know there was some specific act that passed Congress and signed into law regarding coops and price fixing many years ago. In our case, its the RR tie buyers fixing the price they pay, so to speak. Part of the reason we have stayed away from them. Not saying they are colluding on the price. Its just that I prefer to set our prices, not vice versa.

Once again it depends on how much stroke an entity has .

Several years ago an international company that recently tried to oil slick the entire gulf of Mexico  pulled a power play at a local refinery .

In their colonial method of thinking they took it upon themselves to negotiate  local general agreements that usurped local trade agreements with contract labor at that refinery .It so stipulated that contractors could only pay 80 percent of local wage agreements regarding hourly rates plus benifits paid to the workers .It never stipulated  exactly what those contractors could charge only what they could pay out .They could charge whatever they wanted to just as long as they messed with the   workers .( I have stronger words but felt best not to use them )

So essentually that was a form of price fixing if you look at the big picture .The price of gasoline never fell because of it and if anything behind close doors as sure as God made little green apples some money changed hands .

Soooooooooooo it would make sense whatever a big oil company can do don't think for one fraction of a second a major consortium of railways could not .They like big oil might appear to be competitors but more likely as not they sleep in the same bed truth be known .

I know one private company that the rail road, timber, oil refining and the trucking are all integrated. ;D Years back, in this province timber and rail road was one in the same. Without access to timber back then, no rail roads. Period. In fact, vast areas of timber here to to tune of 1000 acres per mile of track got the job done. This private company got it all back in 1945 from the province with help from a newspaper college named Maxwell Atkin , known as Lord Beaverbrook (part of Churchill's war cabinet). Both these two old coots have their names all over the capital city. ;D

Mills here have been fined in the past for price fixing, in fact Marketing Boards helped improve prices and deliveries for the little guy and there were no favorites. Recently, one mill challenged this by trying direct contracts with individuals (picking favorites) and was reprimanded. You leave the door open and your coop will fall apart as big outfits know all the games in the book.

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 03, 2013, 10:31:36 AM
  You leave the door open and your coop will fall apart as big outfits know all the games in the book.

Well that makes sense they should because they wrote the book to begin with .

New to Forum (and industry as well) ... really interesting thread ... I'm in awe of how much collective knowledge is in here, so hesitant to ask dumb questions ... but I'll ignore NAS's sage advice and do it anyway ...  Any way for a guy with a small mill to get started producing (and more importantly, selling) ties?  Where would you start?  It sounds like a fairly significant piece of the overall cost is in the logs themselves, here in central Illinois we're basically overrun with oak (both white and red), and there are tree services that are cutting up some decent sized logs into firewood because owners just want to get rid of it.  So, potentially, logs could be "free" for the taking.  Especially attractive market if drying not required.  Any suggestions / recommendations?

By the way, EMD is now part of Progress Rail which is part of Caterpillar ...

SawyerBrown, welcome to the forum. Do a search on railroad ties, because your answers are in another thread. There is alot of info on here.

As for the co-ops, it might work on a small local level to get a more steady stream of product to the tie buyer. As in, you have 5 small producers that pool their ties together into one large load for delivery to the tie buyer. The small co-op might be able to go to the tie buyer and ask for a $1-2 increase per tie or a set large load bonus due to the one large load making it easier on the tie buyer. Just my two cents...

Welcome Sawyer Brown, The short answer to your question is yes.  I have been producing ties on a small scale for several years. If you produce them its good to know someone that wants them and hopefully will give money for them. I sell to Koppers and looking at there Web site they have plant in Galesburg, Illinois   I think that is close to you.
I would call or email them you can get that info from the web site. There is another tread titled The Good and Bad of Ties you might find some info there.

Hello    SawyerBrown, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   :)

QuoteWell with regards to price fixing weather it's illeagal or not it's a known fact it does happen in the real world .Now if anybody has to pay the piper over it just depends on ones politics it does appear .

You get into an area that has a specific number of peoples family names on  county roads or find the same on cornerstones of buildings you'll know exactly what I mean .

:D :D  al you are the man!!

Well it's really the truth .They talk about good ole boys in the south land but believe you me it's worse here in the big corn field . These good ole boys had great grand daddies who  forged empires that have lasted generations .I think some of them might have two or three roads named after them for all I know .Then again they might have used alisases too ,something probabley not mentioned in history books .

QuoteWell it's really the truth

i know.   :)  it's the golden rule:  he with the gold makes the rules!   :D :D

     I did not mean to imply that we should engage in price fixing practices. I'm so hoppin mad at what the oil industry has been able to do this last 6 or 7 yrs. It takes months for the price to go down .20, then it seems like if someone sneezes wrong it goes right back up.
     What I am saying is that it seems the tie mfgrs. seem to dictate what they are going to pay, which is a form of price fixing in its own right. It has been argued on this forum the profitability of making ties, which is in another thread. We as smaller producers are needed to satisfy the needs of many markets. If we could raise our margins, even just a bit, it would make our lives a little easier without having a significant impact on the downstream cycle of what we produce  :)

It wasn't that many years ago that corn was bringing 3 or 4 dollars a bushel. At 7 now, that is quite a shift. A little change in supply or demand makes a huge amount of difference. If you can develop your own markets for your products or services, then as more people do that, the 40 dollar tie scenario becomes feasible. The price of lumber has been going up, including pallet lumber. Being able to cut oak trailer decking means you can charge what you think you should get. As the price of pressure treated lumber goes up, it makes oak a lot more competitive. Manufacturing added jobs in December; that means more pallet lumber. Construction is up, that means more blocking and various products. More home building. To me, its not if ties will hit 40. They will. The real question is when.

Kansas, add to your list

More manufacturing and higher fuel cost means more rail traffic which means ties wear out sooner and need to be replaced.

I'm just nowhere near convinced that there will be a sudden overwhelming increase in rail traffic that will result in a huge increase in the need to purchase and replace ties beyond previous maintenance schedules.

From where I'm at, it's been headed in the opposite direction. The only rail the refinery is using through parts of Maine and into NB is what they own. The federal government gave them $18M about 3 years ago to upgrade a branch here in the province. The rest of the route to the west they must pay for access by fees or royalties. Who knows, maybe they even own some of it. No way for us to know because they are not on the stock exchange and don't have to tell anyone anything. We do have small hardwood mills that cut ties, but I doubt Irving buys many as they can cut their own. I'm pretty sure they own a treatment plant to.

I wonder if or how the addition of high-speed passenger trains (been talking about one locally here between Chicago and St Louis) will impact? They're not going to run on the same rails as freight (obviously), and maybe they can use plastic/concrete/other on lighter trains, but now you're at least talking about NEW uses for product rather than just maintenance.  High-speed trains are all over Europe/Japan/other, and I can't believe they won't become more popular here if the cost of air travel keeps going up.  Heck, I'd probably opt for an 8-hour train ride to Denver on a nice comfortable train (like Europe's) rather than smashed between two sumo wrestlers with my knees hitting my chin in an airplane seat for 2 hours.  New uses should help the "demand" side of the supply/demand equation, and maybe passenger trains contribute to that if our legislators ever get their act together.

BTW, thanks for the welcomes, as well as the advice!  I feel the love already ...

I would prefer train for travel to any other mode of transportation. Unfortunately in my region the volume is/was so low that the costs were high so it fell out of favor. There is just as much to see by train as there is by car. In fact tourists never see much on the new 4-lane because it's cut into rock and can't see anything much except recent clear cuts. Hardly see the river valley or a farm. You have to leave the main drag to see stuff and mostly people just head right through. Most tourists just head to PEI and NS anyway. I see on the new 2013 calender they are still show casing some old run down fishing shack to represent NB. This province couldn't promote a boxing match and get it right.

I would think that going from 1000 to 20,000 oil trains 2009 - 2012 represents an increase.  Also, the MS River is so low now that barge traffic is limited.  One barge hauls the same as 1050 semi trucks.  So, will we haul grain with trucks or trains?  Or pray for rain?

When I lived in Prince Rupert, BC in the 90's grain and coal went steady to Port Edward by train to be loaded onto freighters heading to Asia. I can only assume it's the same now.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_CoalPortEdward3.jpg)

Just for what it worth.

Studies done years ago showed the the cheapest mode of transportation for goods was by water.

Same study concluded that the cheapest land transportation, ton/miles, was with a flanged wheel (railroads).

One of the biggest factors in the decline in miles of track for railroads is the fact that every level of government (US, state/county/city) has subsidized the road system and taxed the railroads on their right of ways, equipment and trackage.  Every public road built for cars and trucks is removed from the tax base.  Every mile of track is taxed as "improved property" as is every switch stand.  We subsidize cars and tax railroads.  We go to war to protect car usage and moan because of war killed as our cities are dieing from smog.  Cities will install stop lights and widen streets to get a Walmart or Home Depot and then pass laws about how long a train can be on a crossing or appropriate vast swaths of land to build a new road or highway and wonder why railroads won't build new tracks.

Just saying

I might add that in addition to the afore mentioned information the railroads were taxed by the amount of track .Such as double tracks as oppossed to single .It then became standard practice after reliable methods to run two way traffic on single rails that one set of tracks were removed .

Now don't be feeling sorry for the railroads because historically they have made zillions of dollars over deals cut years ago  such as staggered entire sections of land that were later developed .The old railroad barons were that days Donald Trumps .

I never knew a poor one. In fact the Canadian ones got filthy rich and became like kings when they went back to England to sit at the house of Lords and their big estates. They were able do a lot of it because the workers were in essence slaves and these kings were rolling around in government money. Some of those old Prime Ministers, premiers and governors, if they had enough booze in them they would give land away one minute and pay next to nothing for expropriated land.

It was an urban legion which might be factual that it was a great grand scheme by both General Motors and either Goodyear or Firestone to equipt regional transportation systems with busses rather than tracked street cars .

It was another outlet for GM to sell diesel engines and whom ever to sell tires .I'm old enough to remember tracked street cars which later became electricfied busses which ran from overhead trolley distribution systems .--politics no doubt .

Well, we've got some people saying the price will go way up, and some saying it will stay pretty flat for a good long while. Folks on this thread have been playing this game or fighting this fight for a good many posts. I don't know who's winning--

It must be a tie.  :-X

Quote from: Al_Smith on January 08, 2013, 09:22:40 AM
...  it was a great grand scheme by both General Motors and either Goodyear or Firestone to equipt regional transportation systems with busses rather than tracked street cars .

It was Firestone, and you left out Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum plus a few other smaller players.

It's a fact that these companies established several holding companies with the express purpose of acquiring city streetcar systems. The holding companies included American City Lines, National City Lines, and Pacific City lines.

It's also a fact that they were found guilty of "conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products to local transit companies controlled by NCL and other companies". And they were acquitted of "conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies."

In other words, they were guilty of buying streetcar companies so they could be the sole supplier of buses (and presumably tires and fuel) to those companies, but they didn't try to keep other people from buying into the holding companies.

There's a lot of debate about whether they were trying to do away with electric streetcars, or were trying to get exclusive access to selling replacement equipment.

Sounds a lot like the Irvings and McCains. Take McCains, they are gobbling up just about every food processor and brand in the country. They own Kraft up here, plus when you read some boxes labeled Christie up in the corner, just look down at the bottom corner and it says Kraftca.com . And I can tell ya right now, a lot of the old brands they have acquired, they have also changed the food value. Cheese is just about the worst they messed around with. It's just processed stuff now in bricks instead of the usual plastic wrapped layers. Old tastes the same as mild.  Cutting corners and costs to make a buck on low food value products. The milk isn't subsidized only market controls (nationally by the CDC) and the price is about double that of any other country. So this is the result with the cheese unless you want to pay $15 a pound. Imported cheese has a big tariff slapped on to compete. What free trade? ::)

I've heard the Irvings insist you finance harvest equipment through them if your doing any work for them. They have acquired about every newspaper in the province, called media concentration, that is supposedly illegal but nobody touches the Irvings.

Well again it's the game of politics or who's palm gets greased ,old story .

They are playing the same game with incandensent light bulbs .Sure the CFL's use less power but what are you supposed to do with the burned out bulbs that contain mercury ? The "greenies " whined until they got their way now what to do with the residue ? What dump them in a land fill only to come back 20 years from now and spend a zillion dollars digging them back up again. Good Lawd they have rocks in their heads.

For that matter what did Firestone have in mind with the worn out bus tires from the other fiasco? Dump them in the Atlantic ocean I suppose .Costs more to recycle one than the salvaged by products are worth. Oh it does go on and on . 

Speaking of light bulbs. I was talking to a board member of our electric co-op that just happens to own a retail store yesterday. He was telling me that the only thing banned about the old bulbs was manufacture. You can still import and legally sell them. The package he had on the shelf said "Made in Indonesia". Kinda sounds like the only thing illegal is an American paycheck.

They are still selling them at our Walmart. I'm switching back to incandescents. It'll take a while to replace every bulb in the house, but man, they do have us over a barrel. Buy mercury bulbs or buy foreign-made. Oh, that's right, the mercury bulbs are foreign made anyhow.

I switched every bulb in the house. Couldn't tell any difference in the electric bill. They will last longer, I don't think enough to cut the extra cost. I read that it takes the same amount of electricity to get both types up to operating temperature. It sounds like the may be a little cheaper when used in a location where the light is never or seldom turned off. Since then, as they blow we are going back to the old ones.

Well with all this talk about so called saving of energy usage in relationships to CFL's they left something out of the equasion .

While the CFLs' do produce more lumans per watt usage the good old Edison  based incandencents produce the same amount of heat the bulb is listed for .75 watts means 75 watts of heat .Read the paper and get warm at the same time if you have enough of them .Now how can you beat a deal like that unless you are in the Arizona desert in the summer time .

Now don't think for a second you're going to beat those rascals at a game they made up the rules to .Just like those danged toilets that flush on a gallon of water you have to flush three times before it goes down .What a grand plan that was .Water saver indeed .  ::)

I'm telling you the wizards that think this stuff up must be survivers of the acid wars of the 60s' that still have residue in their systems and rocks in their noggins --geeze --

We can't get much more than a year out of'm. And you can't buy any outdoor ones around here.  I've looked in every store and took 20 minutes exploring the shelves. All say not for freezing temps and not high moister. So that rules out being for outdoors. ::)

My power didn't change any because I don't leave 15 lights on in the house, never did. One little light in the room I'm at. What purpose is it to turn the lights on in rooms your not in? Offices are the worst, light shining in windows, yet all the lights are on. ::)

That's the problem with any type of florescent lights .To get one to fire much below 50 -60 degrees it takes a special type starter and more mercury in the tube to heat it to ionization so it can illuminate .In my shop it has minus 20 degree high output tubes and ballasts on the 8 foot lights .Danged tubes alone are 7-8 bucks a piece .

You literally wear a flourescent light out by starting it .If you left it on all the time it will last a good long while but then again that's kind of self defeating in terms of energy usage .

Al and Swampdonkey agreeing with each other,Land O Goshen what is the world coming to?

I don't know. I half suspect those Icelanders over there are about to blow up a volcano or something. Then, that's just the beginning of a real cold spell I recon. :D

Quote from: WH_Conley on January 09, 2013, 08:55:51 AM
I switched every bulb in the house. Couldn't tell any difference in the electric bill. They will last longer, I don't think enough to cut the extra cost. I read that it takes the same amount of electricity to get both types up to operating temperature. It sounds like the may be a little cheaper when used in a location where the light is never or seldom turned off. Since then, as they blow we are going back to the old ones.

You will have to break the piggy bank and buy LED's. I have spent over $400 in them outfitting my log house, still have almost that much to go. Power bill is $30 a month lower already, so it is paying for a bulb a month. Lifespan of a bulb is supposed to be 20 years....we will see.

Sorry for the sidetrack...[pun intended}

Quote from: Paul_H on January 09, 2013, 11:12:37 AM
Al and Swampdonkey agreeing with each other,Land O Goshen what is the world coming to?

Oh now we do agree about two percent of the time.It's all a matter of communication ,he with his regional Chinese and me with my flat land hill billy farmer lingo.

Actually I'm not certain who I have more fun with ,the Swampster ,Marty in St. Johns or that guy in Long Island with the jet engine who tutors me on my punctuation.< looky thar,no space ,ha ha ha. :D

Say I just got a revilation ,a bolt from the blue .Since they found all this natural gas perhaps it would be a grand plan to convert every thing over to gas lights like about 1870 .Do you suppose that would drive the price of CFL's down or the price of gas up? Might drive the price of fire insurance through the roof.

What it might do is drive the price of lumber and ties up from shipping all that lumber to rebuild the houses that burn to the ground .Maybe not so good of a plan ,next .

Quote from: Al_Smith on January 09, 2013, 10:48:34 AM
While the CFLs' do produce more lumans per watt usage the good old Edison  based incandencents produce the same amount of heat the bulb is listed for .75 watts means 75 watts of heat .Read the paper and get warm at the same time if you have enough of them .Now how can you beat a deal like that unless you are in the Arizona desert in the summer time .

In fact, all light bulbs are 100% energy efficient. First law of thermodynamics. As you said, it's just a matter of how much light you get per watt. The extra heat an incandescent light produces is mainly infrared, so it is actually heating the room, not just the air around it. So consider:

• I don't leave the lights on when we aren't in the room.
• I only need the lights when it is dark, or relatively dim, in the room. That's usually when the room is cooler.
• Infrared (from the light bulb) heats us more directly than the warm air in the room.
• I heat mainly with electricity.

So if I were to install CFL's, the electricity I would save from lighting is exactly offset by the extra demand on my furnace. In my corner of the world, it gets even worse for people who heat with natural gas. They end up using less electricity (hydro-electric) when they switch to CFL's and therefore burn more natural gas to keep the house warm -- which increases the amount of CO2 released into the air.

CFL's were originally intended for use in places where temperatures are high for most of the year. If you use an air conditioner, incandescent bulbs will not only draw more electricity than you need for light, the extra heat they produce will put extra load on your air conditioner, drawing even more power.

CFL's were also never intended for places where they will be used intermittently, such as closets or bathrooms. They burn out pretty darn quick in those applications.

Incandescents were supposed to be banned here last year -- federally and provincially. However, thanks to the mercury in the landfill issue, they've deferred that for the time being. BC Hydro has also produced an estimate of the number of tonnes of CO2 that will be added to the atmosphere (in BC) if CFLs become mandatory. Hopefully sanity will prevail.

In the meantime, I own a thirty year supply of incandescent bulbs, just in case stupidity prevails ;D.

Mean while back to $40 railroad ties.

Just checked on prices and found out D.Fir ties FOB the treating plant (80 miles from me) pays $21.86 for an 8'6" tie.  And if cut to specs will take all I can cut.  Price "might" go up if timber prices go up.

For cutting a 7 x 9 tie what is considered the proper diameter of the log?  Does anybody have a figure of how much side lumber they get from a 12" tie log?

That how much really depends on the sawyer and how fat your slabs are and your target for opening face and on and on and on. I usually get a board on each side of a 12'' to 13'' tie log. sometimes an extra. I shoot for a 6'' face to start.

PC

The toolbox has a handy log size to cant size calculator to figure out what size log you need to get to a desired cant.  Wane is not included.

https://forestryforum.com/calcs/log_size.htm

To get a 7x9, you need a minimum of a 11.4" log, and it needs to be straight.  I need some wiggle room.

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 12, 2013, 11:54:08 PM
The toolbox has a handy log size to cant size calculator to figure out what size log you need to get to a desired cant.  Wane is not included.

https://forestryforum.com/calcs/log_size.htm

To get a 7x9, you need a minimum of a 11.4" log, and it needs to be straight.  I need some wiggle room.

OK,

But aren't you allowed 1" of wane so the log size could go down to 11"?  Or is that a game you don't want to play?

Quote from: KnotBB on January 13, 2013, 12:09:46 AM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 12, 2013, 11:54:08 PM
The toolbox has a handy log size to cant size calculator to figure out what size log you need to get to a desired cant.  Wane is not included.

https://forestryforum.com/calcs/log_size.htm

To get a 7x9, you need a minimum of a 11.4" log, and it needs to be straight.  I need some wiggle room.

OK,

But aren't you allowed 1" of wane so the log size could go down to 11"?  Or is that a game you don't want to play?

You can get some good 7x9's with allowable wane from 11" logs but I probably end up cutting 2 6x8's out of 12 and 13" logs for every good 7x9 I cut from an 11". Pine might be different; hardwoods tend to have just enough sweep and crook that unless the the 11" log is oval,straight, and slick I don't try for a 7x9.

Our tie market has a minimum of wane, especially where the plate sits.  From a sawyer's standpoint, I never figured I was good enough to get that consistent 1" of wane to try and skin the market by their rules.  It takes time to do that, and time is money and a non-renewable resource.  Your results may vary.

At $21.86, that is the same as getting over $600 per MBF for the lumber in the center of a log, considering that if you saw a tie into lumber you would get 36 BF.

No doubt the better avg. is taking out the tie,, and I found that getting greedy will come back to bite, I have some clear logs I tried to get a few more clear boards and finish with a 6X8, only to reveal knots.  Gene you hit the low grade price pretty close. 

Maybe this is the wrong time or place to ask, but what about landscape timbers? If a log won't meet the grueling specs of a RR tie, what about timbers? Is there a market for them, and what do people generally get for them? Wholesale? Retail?

Okra, I guess it would depend on the size of the timbers and what kinda treatment they would get,  I have cut many for raised beds for folks that want untreated timbers to be more green and organic.  But I'm not sure as to how this would go as far as a large market. I suppose anything is possible. 

Do you have a market?  If not, how are you going to develop one?

I knew of a mill that used to make them.  They had their own tank to dip their landscape ties into and make them.  They also did clearcuts in front of strip mines, and had their own mines.  Money wasn't as much of an object.  They utilized small logs that were destined for the pulp mills.  Their millsite probably qualified for an EPA cleanup spot. 

I went back and found this post I made not all that long ago on our experience with a landscape tie market

Quote from: Jeff on January 26, 2011, 07:06:59 PM
I'd say it works depending on the species.

  Back in the late 70's early 80's, I don't remember what years exactly, there was a big market for aspen landscape ties that were run through a dip tank with a similar mixture. I know there was tar and mineral spirits, and some other stuff.  Nasty stuff.  I remember one time our dip tank motor broke and we had to dip about a 10 bundles by hand.

Anyhow, we were not the innovators of this process, just one of many contractors sawing dipping and selling to the wholesalers.  This market boomed for 2 years. Then it died. Why? By the third year it turns out, there were a whole bunch of hollow crumbling tar shells around the country. The aspen ties rotted quicker with the "Waterproofing" barrier then they would have if they had simply been plain old ties.

So will any species work with that process?  Time will tell. ;) :)

We've tried roofing tar on Tamarack posts in the U.P. at the cabin for feeders, and they rot off faster then untreated.

Tis the truth, Jeff, and yet people continue to use them in their yards. I guess the way to market them is to find out who the landscape suppliers buy them from, and see if I can sell them to the producers. But maybe they do like you were saying, and only mill their own, don't buy any.

I'm wondering if the thing to do is mill them, offer them for sale, and let the customers find their own methods of treating them.  ??? I guess they mostly just buy recycled ties for the most part.

I have sold some 2X6 ERC boards for landscaping timbers. They were put in green last year. I wonder how long they will last? But ERC is too nice to do market it that way!

I recall one day a fellow showed up at our mill and want eight ties.  He was driving a station wagon and thought he could haul them.  At almost 200 pounds each, he certainly would have blown his tires, shocks, springs.  He also thought he could load them himself.

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on January 14, 2013, 12:35:51 AM
I recall one day a fellow showed up at our mill and want eight ties.  He was driving a station wagon and thought he could haul them.  At almost 200 pounds each, he certainly would have blown his tires, shocks, springs.  He also thought he could load them himself.

Hmm! Believe me, I seen worse, Doc! (especially when I visited China, but even in the US!)

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on January 13, 2013, 01:19:13 PM
At $21.86, that is the same as getting over $600 per MBF for the lumber in the center of a log, considering that if you saw a tie into lumber you would get 36 BF.

Huh?

Are you considering that soft wood is sold nominal size?  Wouldn't that allow at least an extra 1 x 6  (from the 9" width) and maybe an additional 1 x 8 with a band mill?

The actual price quoted was $490/m for an 8'6" tie.

The last few years we have mostly got our logs from clearing operations where they want more farmground. I don't think at current prices I have any interest, but doing an internet search reveals that hackberry is apparently used as railroad ties. I can't find where cottonwood is used. We pass over a lot of 11 inch logs of both species. Anyone have experience cutting either one for ties? I still have the problem of finding a place to take them. If there was a market in the future that was good, it would beat cutting cants out of those smaller logs up around 12 or 13 inches that we do take for pallet.

Gday

Jim Its a pretty big market and you can either sell direct or wholesale the direct approach with  durable species will net the best returns as you can just saw them when ordered or keep your own stock up most common sizes are 8x2 and 3" by 6-8-9 & 10' lengths Ill also be sawing alot of 6x2 &3" in the same lengths Mate

I am already booked in for sawing about 1.2 million bft of Pine ties for CCA & CCQ preasure treatment along with about 200000 bft of Cypress Pine and about another 2 to 400000bft of Hardwood Garden Sleepers 

I will also add I get a better price for sawing hardwood garden grade ties than I would if I was sawing for the railroad plus they are the ones that shafted us 10 yrs ago by swapping overnight to all concrete ties for the major lines that are failing now in sections as concrete dose not cope with extreme temps and traffic loads problem is when they go looking for timber sleepers they are not going to find them as Sawmillers have shifted to a whole new market with better returns and that are not as fussy on grade  ;) ;D ;D smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup

Our ties here are most likely going to come from other countries if they do an about face and want to change the main lines back to timber and want alot of ties pronto  which is on the cards its not the first time we have imported ties either as I have resawn creo treated American Oak ties that came out of the city loop line in Melbourne back in about 01 or 02  as they where a trial batch to see how they held up  :) :)

Regards Chris

Well now I am lost. If a tie is cut 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 but they paid for a full 7x9, then The docs math works. Do they do softwood ties differently than hardwoods, or do they do hardwoods the same way? Never having cut any, I guess I never actually measured a railroad tie. That would be paying for an 8 ft log, not 8'6".

Mom's uncle being a railroad man, and her brother being a rail switch sweeper had access to all kinds of ties (treated with creosote). Every building around both yards was propped up with ties and both used them as cribbing in the banks of hillsides near buildings to deter soil creep and erosion. They've been there all my life and then some. They would have been heavy hardwood ties. At times you could go along the rail line where they piled up the old ones for quite some time, so I gather a few walked off. Maybe they was hoping if they sat there long enough that they would walk off. ;D

Heck Kansas, even pulpmills wanted trim wood in the days of buying on cordage. And it's all pulp. I can see a sawmill wanting a little trim. Even that trim goes to their pulpmill. They use every morsel, even the freebies. ;D

You can cut hackberry into ties.  Cottonwood is too soft. 

I think I had put the alternative prices in the beginning of the thread.  I don't know of any hardwood mills that saws logs all into lumber.  Might be a few sawing cherry, but I couldn't get that to work.  Usually its sawed to a pallet cant. That cant is worth about $5-6.  The balance would need about $830/Mbf for breakeven.

Kansas:  did you figure in saw kerf and oversized?  In tie logs, you buy the 8'6" for the 8' price and you sell the lumber the same way.

If you saw a 7x9 hardwood tie (actual size is 7.0" by 9.0") into lumber, I was calculating that you would get 6 pieces of 4/4, 9" x 8-1/2' lumber (36 BF).  That is really tough to do, as you would get 1/16" kerf and 1-1/16" thick lumber, but many mills have more kerf and many customers want 1-1/8".  So, at 1-1/8" thick with 3/32" kerf, then you would only get 5 pieces of 9" x 8' (30 BF) or, if you saw the other direction, 6 pieces of 7" x 8' lumber (30 BF).  At a tie price of $21.50 per tie, that is $717 per MBF for what often would be No.2 Common and lower grades.

Note that different species are used for ties, with a premium (often $2 per tie) paid for red oak and sometimes white oak.  Most of the other ties are bought as mixed hardwood species, but not all species are acceptable.  As mentioned, there are restrictions on wane, as well as requirements for solid ends and minimal end splitting.  So, landscape timers (3x6 is one common size) is indeed an option, but many gardeners do want just any species, but prefer white oak or other naturally decay resistant species.

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 14, 2013, 04:14:03 AM
  At times you could go along the rail line where they piled up the old ones for quite some time, so I gather a few walked off. Maybe they was hoping if they sat there long enough that they would walk off. ;D

They used to sell the old ties for a dollar a pop. Which I have little doubt that dollar most likely ended up in the local track foremans pocket or bought the track crew lunch and beer ,no big deal .

The way they do it now with machinery they cut the ties out most of the time and you just end up with about 3 foot pieces not good for much of anything .Might be good for building smokey bonfires to drive off mosquitoes maybe .

I believe the best way to handle the tie market is to contact a buyer and have them give the low down on specs and species.  Unless someone has a buyer of cut through ties at a price  at or above 500/m, there is no way to make it buying the logs then selling it as it grades.  I'm not really an expert but have done about every conceivable combination as in relates to hardwood and green lumber.  The fellows with kilns have a bonus going for them for sure. But as is has been mentioned before, without sales, it is kinda pointless.   david

Okay, I get it. You were talking lumber instead of a tie.

They are replacing a bunch of ties out along our property. They take these out in whole form. They have been dumping asphalt from road crossings on our place. They told me someone has a contract to pick up all the old ties, the good and the bad. They did haul me in some really nice used ties in exchange for me letting them dump the asphalt. Eventually, got to get a crusher in and send all this concrete and asphalt down the road.

Not sure where the nearest buying yard for ties is from me. Probably wherever Paul or Bibby goes. I won't mess with it anyway until the price was higher. We have been needing a lot of cants anyway for pallets and blocking.

Around here I keep hearing scuttlebut about a demand for sweetgum ties. And yet no one I know is actively selling (or buying them). Someone gave me the number for a tie buyer, but I haven't been able to get a hold of him.

Quote from: Okrafarmer on January 15, 2013, 10:59:46 AM
Around here I keep hearing scuttlebut about a demand for sweetgum ties. And yet no one I know is actively selling (or buying them). Someone gave me the number for a tie buyer, but I haven't been able to get a hold of him.

Actually, writing that, goaded me into trying to call him again, so I did and I just talked to him. He says  that he is currently buying all "normal" hardwood species except tulip poplars, cottonwood, or other poplars.

Prices are: 7X9's : $20. 7X8's $16. 6X8's: $12.

The lengths can be between 8'6 and 9'.  He seems to indicate they are mainly looking for sound wood, no rot or shake, no more than an inch of wane. They don't want more than 15% 7X8's.

He said I can bring him a truck load or a single tie. He is somewhere around 25 miles from my house, and around 40 miles from where the mill is currently located.

Sounds like you could cut a few on a trial basis and see how it goes.

Does any one know of buyers/brokers for ties in the New Hampshire/Vermont/Maine/Massachusetts area? I looked at Koppers and the RTA website and couldn't find information on how or who to contact.

Quote from: Okrafarmer on January 13, 2013, 11:18:50 PM
Tis the truth, Jeff, and yet people continue to use them in their yards. I guess the way to market them is to find out who the landscape suppliers buy them from, and see if I can sell them to the producers. But maybe they do like you were saying, and only mill their own, don't buy any.

I'm wondering if the thing to do is mill them, offer them for sale, and let the customers find their own methods of treating them.  ??? I guess they mostly just buy recycled ties for the most part.

I have sold some 2X6 ERC boards for landscaping timbers. They were put in green last year. I wonder how long they will last? But ERC is too nice to do market it that way!

I built a raised garden bed with 2x8 ERC in 2001. It's as sound as the day I built it but its was pretty much all heartwood. I terraced a small flower bed the same summer out of the those 3"x4" half round treated pine timbers they sell for cheap. The treated 3x4's are rotten in spots.

Good heartwood eastern red cedar would be an acceptable if not superior "green" alternative for landscaping I think.

I agree...ERC is an excellent choice for raised beds, landscaping etc... but you have to trim the sapwood as is does rot much quicker.

I used Tamarack for mine, and it is holding up beautifully.

white cedar, yellow cedar, and red cedar as well. I think of all them, that yellow cedar would be the best. That stuff lasts and lasts and chop into them and they still smell like peeled potatoes. Listed sometimes as Alaska-cedar or yellow cypress. I'd like to have a barn full, but I think it's pricy stuff. Any that I saw harvested, and I saw a lot, was destined for Asia. Cruised acres of it up in the swamps on the mountains of Northern BC.

Tamarack and white cedar are used up here in cesspools, lasts decades. One fellow was looking for large tamarack for pilings as well as cesspools a few years ago. The pilings had to be quite big timbers. I think the bugs have killed off a lot of large trees here like at Jeff's. They tended to be standing because of access and low price and they are short lived.

I'd also wager that on those mountain swamps in BC the lodge pole pine would be pretty rot resistant to. They were so slow grown they were almost petrified. The axe would just bound right off with every swing and just be scratching at the wood. I'd like to test MM's axe on one. :D

I had white cedar posts on a split rail fence.  They didn't last 10 years.  I put in treated posts, and they lasted a lot longer. 

Musta been all sapwood from field grown wood. Swamp cedar grows slow with thin outter sapwood. Some will be only about 6" in diameter and be 140 years old. Lasts decades as pasture posts. Heck a dead swamp cedar from beaver floods will stand longer than a man has time on the earth.

Not to change the subject on uh, er, ??? oh yeah,RR ties.I have been seeing load after load of long ties,14 or 16ft. ties.(switch ties maybe?)Running down hwy. 96 between Jasper and Beaumont,Texas.Do any of you Texas guys know anything about prices, destination,buyers etc.Just wonderin.

I don't know about Texas, but they're a pretty good deal here in PA.  Here they have their preferred producers that make them.  There is a limited market.  They buy from 13' to 23' around here.  There are times they won't buy any at those lengths.

   Yah Jeff, we use tamarack for posts here as well. I call it Larch, same wood differentname. It supposedly will outlast treated posts ;)

    Last fall I spoke to the mgr. at the tie plant. They were only buying crossties then. he said they normally buy long stuff but did'nt seem to have a reason why they weren't then

Depends on how bad the need is. The guy might have had 20 inquiries the last few days and he was already swamped, so just wanted to move on. Happens. ;)

J-dland I think you are seeing cants that are for matts, I also seen them on 96 heading south in Jasper, the trucking company was out of sourlake.

Thanks for the reply two tired.Was thinking such long cants should draw a premium price.Just dont know where to find a buyer.I'm pretty much just a hobby sawyer right now. but have several sweetgums on my property i'd like to get rid of.Hate to just cut and burn.Thinkin they could help pay for this dang problem I have of likin to make sawdust.

Why is it finding a tie buyer is like finding a unicorn?

Quote from: torqueporting on January 17, 2013, 09:40:03 PM
Why is it finding a tie buyer is like finding a unicorn?

I don't know, but I did finally find one.

Now my question is, is finding a tie log kind of like finding a unicorn?

Seems like a feller livin in the sweetgum capital of the world would have options. ???Mabe a unicorn hidin behind every tree    :D

Quote from: j-dland on January 18, 2013, 12:57:01 AM
Seems like a feller livin in the sweetgum capital of the world would have options. ???Mabe a unicorn hidin behind every tree    :D

You have to watch out for tigers around here. They leave giant orange tracks on the highway, and all over peoples' cars and stuff.

I wish I could say we have all kinds of legendary stuff around here, and I guess there might used to been, but now adays there's just too many of us Yankees around this area watering down the local flavor. But for those of you on the Forum, just know, we are the land of legendary Sweetgummery.

I don't know, but I did finally find one.

Now my question is, is finding a tie log kind of like finding a unicorn?
[/quote]

Not around my location. Oaks are the dominant species. There is plenty of maple as well. 

We have billions of trees that would qualify, but finding someone to cut them the right length-- that, my friend, is difficult. And avoiding things like tearout.

Okrafarmer , Does everyone in South Carolina now have a rustic mantel and you are now moving to ties.  LOL :D

Quote from: Ohio_Bill on January 18, 2013, 08:02:12 AM
Okrafarmer , Does everyone in South Carolina now have a rustic mantel and you are now moving to ties.  LOL :D

I haven't started yet, just keeping my options open! I made the first step in fifty. Finding a buyer. Actually, that's the second step, the first was learning about them here. I figured if the price does go up, I better be ready. Otherwise, if I get into some oak and sweetgum logs and have nothing better to do with them, I better be ready to saw out some low-return ties rather than not be able to sell ANYTHING when times are slow.

Quote from: Okrafarmer on January 18, 2013, 07:57:54 AM
We have billions of trees that would qualify, but finding someone to cut them the right length-- that, my friend, is difficult. And avoiding things like tearout.

Didn't know I needed to be schooled on cutting logs to length and worrying about tear out. Do you offer classes?   :snowball:

Quote from: torqueporting on January 18, 2013, 08:48:30 PM

Quote from: Okrafarmer on January 18, 2013, 07:57:54 AM
We have billions of trees that would qualify, but finding someone to cut them the right length-- that, my friend, is difficult. And avoiding things like tearout.

Didn't know I needed to be schooled on cutting logs to length and worrying about tear out. Do you offer classes?   :snowball:

When I said we (this time) I was referring to those of us in my little area of South Carolina. I'm sure I don't need to school you on how to do things where you are.  :snowball:

I don't know how many times I have had some farmer or wanna be logger call and say they had a bunch of logs, and proudly proclaim, I cut them all 10 ft long. Except of course, when you do that, you don't cut the crook out of logs.Not to mention, they tried to cut them at exactly 10 foot, so they all went at 9 ft. A few complained. I refrained from asking them if they had a log stretcher. And I have had walnuts come in that would have been worth more on the stump than what they did to them. We used to actually hold some classes years ago on dropping trees. We never got into how to properly drop a walnut, because that is a bit dangerous and takes a lot of skill to drop a log with no hinge.

Keeping a close eye on log tie prices. Not so much for that but for pallet lumber pricing. With manufacturing and home starts up, who knows.

I'd have to seriously question whether shipping oil by rail is 'quicker' than a pipeline.  Of course, it is!!! IF there is no pipeline... as is the case of a lot of areas where there's never been any kind of oil or gas production before.  Railroads can't transport ng, unless it's compressed into a liquid, and that's not going to happen on a large scale, out in the 'fields'.

As soon as pipelines go in, the need for super expensive rail transport will cease, overnight.

I'd not want to build a business model based upon long term rail transport of crude oil.

Logging and milling my own wood is my number 1 hobby... I make my living as a landman in the oil and gas business, so I'm familiar with pipelines and the time lag it takes to research owners, buy ROW's, get permits, and find contractors and suppliers to actually do the pipeline work.

Quote from: Kansas on January 19, 2013, 04:21:14 AM
We never got into how to properly drop a walnut, because that is a bit dangerous and takes a lot of skill to drop a log with no hinge.

What they stump jump them? :o

Don't tell Workers Comp, they routinely like to make examples and send out a nice bunch of glossy flyers for the winner of the worst accident that month. The hard part is the $$ that leave your bank account to pay for it. A year ago, the local Walmart got a good going over when a young feller was shocked to death polishing a floor. He was an only child of the parents which made it that much worst. Macain Foods had a logger get killed on their land and they had to pay for logging training, first aid and fines. The training money help trained a lot of fellas that had nothing to do with them or their company. Pricey. ;)

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 20, 2013, 06:45:19 AMA year ago, the local Walmart got a good going over when a young feller was shocked to death polishing a floor.

My first mission trip to El Salvador, the guys cleaning the church floors were using a commercial floor buffer/polisher.  Some type of stone/marble/masonry floor.  Pouring water and polishing compound on the floor by hand.  Working barefoot due to the water.  Buffer was wired straight into the buss bar on the electric service with 8 gauge solid (not stranded) wire.  Only the 200 amp main breaker between him and the utility pole.  Standard procedure in that area.

Maybe witht he Dow Jones finishing with a high equal to oct 2007 today this  lumber thing will turn around some. It wouldnt hurt my feelings to sell some ties for $22 and the jacket boards for $1 bdft.

PC

There's a lot of moving and shaking starting up around here again. Lots of land clearing and building going on. Things are looking up. I'm still trying to find a good location to set up my mill-- looking at two or three more possibilities tomorrow.

The nearest big town is going hog wild as well, but not with wood. They are building a new school, expanding the civic centre, adding on to the library, and one other big project. This winter a new filling station in going in by Walmart. This makes 4 Irving filling stations in one town. Leave it to Irving to saturate a place until they are the only ones left standing. :D

E-mailed our tie buyer to get a feel for the market and ask him if he saw any drastic increase in tie prices in the future.

This is his response.

QuoteAs far as the prices making a drastic move upward, I do not see this happening anytime in the future.  Even if rail demand does increase in the Midwest, the wood crosstie is the cheapest material to use.  If we increase our price then the Railroads will look at alternatives such as steel, concrete, and composites.  We will price ourselves out of future business.

Market trends are steady right now but we do not see an increase in business as of right now or in 2013.

QuoteOur current prices are getting ready to drop in March.  We will be paying $22.00 at the mill for a 7"x9"x8'6" Grade 5 tie.  Our inventory levels are very high right now and we are slowing inbound wood purchases.

Red Oak prices are up and 1com jumped up again this week.

White Oak prices have been holding steady for quite some time.

Exactly right. And the Irvings, who ship western oil by rail, is now part of a consortium to push a new pipeline extension into the Saint John, NB refinery with Alberta oil. Sorry Doc, but there's no gold in ties. ;D Besides that CN is about to shut down and tear up more track here in the Maritimes.

What is the market for red oak and #1 common? How much price increase has there been? I would think if its gone up a bunch, that will eventually pull up tie prices. It takes time for mills to switch to different markets.

Prices can change quickly. A year ago this coming spring, the price of walnut logs dropped to the point you could not find a buyer. Now, the price of logs is pretty good.

That 22 dollars a tie works out near 50 cents a board foot. Canadian softwood is up around that high on a true board foot basis. But softwood doesn't work on all pallets. Also realize this; there has been some wide open weather in logging in oak areas across a large swath of the country. It will rain again. If logging gets shut down, the mills will shut down, but they will keep putting in ties.

Sometimes the published prices are a little off. In 2009 flooring was hard to move at 100 under market; now we are getting a significant premium on 2&3A. We aren't even pulling the 1 common as our grading costs no longer cover the difference. 

Kansas, I'm not sure what the price has done for #1 common, but for 1face and better red oak, it has gone up at least 10% here at the buyer I could sell to if I chose to. So far it hasn't been lucrative enough for me to bother, but it's up in the 900's now and was in the 700's a year ago, I think. 8/4 is up over 1,000 now. 1face and better is all I would bother taking them if I were doing it, but I would only do it for those prices if I were starving. I would be more likely to take them poplar since I have a hard time direct marketing that.

RR ties are $20 here.

A sawyer located in the very Northern part of my state called me yesterday quizzing me about my sawing market.  He was interested to find out that I do not sell anything but rely on the portable custom sawing market.  Anyway, he said that he was selling ties for $25.

Ties here are still $22 for 7x9's,  here is a list from one of our local flooring mills, just a few weeks old,

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30023/IMG_0169.JPG) david

Red Oak

1/4/13
FAS 895   Select 875  1com 600 2A 480 3A 350

1/18
FAS 920   Select 900  1com 615 2A/3A Unchanged.

1/25
FAS 940   Select 920  1com 630 2A/3A Unchanged.

2/15
FAS 965   Select 945  1com 645 2A/3A Unchanged.

It made a jump between the 25th and the 2/15 but I must have left those at work.

Location is obviously going to make a difference in price and some may buy higher or lower depending on their needs.

"Rustic" is hot right now. Walnut,W.Oak and Hickory. There are some species we have started to better face grade on the green end.

965 is getting closer to where it was years ago, I still remember 1009 fas, that was the good ole days,

I remember 1400 FAS, and I remember when you couldn't hardly give red oak away.  Its all cyclic in hardwoods.  Chances are, red oak won't be making those kind of highs unless we have some pretty hard inflation.  Maple has made a comeback. 

The question is, looking at Woody's numbers, at what point does a mill think less about railroad ties and more about cutting grade? If you can get a few more FAS or Select, a few more number 1, when does a mill make that switch? That is quite a price jump in a short time. Seems like with pallet lumber where it is at, throw the rest into pallet lumber or cants after you get done with the #1. Its worth more. More work, I realize that.

Has any loggers, or mills buying logs, seen an uptick in prices for oak logs?

Kansas, I'm not a logger, I do buy logs, and keep up on what others are paying for logs, and there is a very slight uptick if you want to call it that, some are still holding fast in the 270-290/m range, will a few others have bumped it up, over 300/m. It all depends on who you know, where you are, and how much you are paying, there is a loyalty factor between loggers and mills for sure, so long as the scale is square,   david

 I have a rail road here going through the farm, seams to me that it has picked up some business as the train is longer (more cars) in the past six months or so. This rail way is quite small compared to many, i am sure though that there are many in its size through out the States and Canada, these little guys won't be able to keep going if the price of ties double,they run a prety tight ship with not too much to spare, ain't no way they will be able to compete and stay alive.
  Doubling or close to it would be nice , it would last only long enough to kill the rail way for good, so what do we want in the long run, a market to wich we can depend on being able to send a product for sure or kill it and try to find an alternative to wich we have no clue, palette wood is good too, it takes about the same type of log to make. But it can't take all of the wood processed at the moment for ties and pallette.
  These small train compagnies hire only a couple of hand full of people each, if they closed down, where will these people go. I think that the price of ties should stay relatively where they are now at least till the economie gets going some again.

Sawing grade is a game of risk analysis.  A good sawyer knows how to read a log and access the sum of the parts.  Its good to figure them out from time to time.

For this example, I'll use $22 for a ties price  That's my breakeven point.  If I saw a tie into grade, I'll end up with about 34 bf of lumber.  16 bf of that will be a pallet cant.  If pallet cants are fetching $400/Mbf, that means I'll get $6.40.  That leaves a balance of ($22-$6.40) $15.60 to get from 18 bf of lumber.  You need an average of $865/Mbf wood to breakeven.  Now you have to figure out the odds of getting all F1F or better lumber to make money.  Pulling into a 2 Com back on one board will lose you money. 

If you have a tie that's clear on all 4 sides, then you have to figure out where the log comes from in respect to the tree.  A butt log red oak will have a higher probability of getting clear lumber than a butt log black oak or a second or third cut.  There are often tell tale signs what the back side will look like.  You just have to look for them.  The secret to grade sawing is knowing when to stop pulling boards, when to turn the log, and when to kick things off the headblocks.  The longer it sits there, the more expensive it is to produce lumber from a unit cost basis.

If the price of pallet or lumber or ties are different, then the breakeven point changes.  Things can change from species to species, so its a good thing to let the sawyer know prices.

Log prices are a factor, but if you don't have control over your mfg costs, not much else will matter.

I did just such a cost anylsis when i started trying to cut a few ties and as bst as I remember on a true bdft basis pallet lumber(my market) was paying $.51 and ties were $.49. Too tight for the extra handling. If it ties then it ships as a tie. I always found the ones that show up a defect(almost always on the last cut or when end trimming) wouldnt make the all good lumber. It is just a salvage mission at that point.

As for trying to cut grade, I would love to cut some. The sides from tie logs make some nice boards and best I can tell it would probably get in the average  of $.60. However the close markets( that I could ship a GN trailer load to) havent opened up yet. Shipping a couple bundles at a time would be the best I could do in a reasonable amount of time. ::)

PC

We have an alternative in casket lumber.  Its graded a little differently.  I am always amazed at the amount of F1F and better I can pull from tie logs.  On an average run of sawlogs, no butts, I could always average in the 40-50% range in the uppers and have 2 com in the 10-15% range.  But, that was when markets were really good. 

I was told by an ole timer years ago, learn the logs, cut for ties, he suggested when cutting 7x9's, if there is a face or two, take it to a 6x8. This has often worked out, but as ron mentioned, you end up with a f1f, the tie now goes for .37/ft rather than .53/ft  I have decided with my volume, it is better to go for 7x9's and take what the log gives.  Custom cutting when available is allot less stressful, no cost out, there is just not enough to stay busy for me. The tie and flooring market is the only way for me to stay busy.  The real killer is when logs are purchased at 300/m  and several only produce 4x6's it is a loss.  Many loggers now run by the ton rather than scaling the log, and as you would expect, some junk gets accidently mixed in the load.     david

how do u go about finding where they buy them? we sawd thousands of ties in the late 1980s but the place we sold them has long ben closed and the tracks removed

Complete side note: I just went to print this thread because its got so much info in it...its 60 pages!!  :o :o Now back to your discussion...

One thing I have noticed over the last 10 years is that the smaller mills sawing grade logs have mostly disappeared. The big bandmills with dry kilns that sell overseas have pretty well priced logs above what a mill selling green lumber mill can pay. Smaller mills that focus on ties seem to be holding their own. The big mills really can't justify putting a 8' tie log on the carriage.

Thanks for the great information Ron.  :)

Stavebuyer hit the nail on the head too.

Last I heard W.Oak logs were .80, .60 and .40.

So going off the green market prices, with FAS being $1.00/ft and Select being $.98/ft, sure doesn't leave a guy much room for sawing cost etc.

As far as the big mills not being able to justify putting a tie log on the carriage, I'm sure some don't but to be honest, I wonder why in the world do we see the logs we do come in the mill.

There was some difference of opinion between myself and my supervisor on Monday when we were cutting W.Oak. I have not yet got to the bottom of it but I put together the following as an example. I have not been told what our 2com or 3A/Rustic prices are so when I find that out, I may lay off cutting ties if the prices are such that it justifies it.

Hopefully this will also help someone else.

7x9x8=42 bd/ft

March price is $22.00/tie or $0.52/ft.

From our place to buyer is 140 miles. Trucking at $4.20/mile would amount to $588.

200 Ties on a semi.

200x42=8400'

$588/8400=$.07/ft trucking.

$.52-$.07=$.45/ft.

2com W.Oak is 440/mbf and 3A is 350/mbf. 4x6 cant is 350/mbf.

If I knew what our sawing cost per ft were, I'd be able to get an idea of what the lumber would have to bring to justify cutting up the tie but I don't.

With some others experience with large mills, they may be able to chime in and help with that. 

Your sawing costs are lower by sawing the tie than by sawing the boards.  It might only be a dollar or two, but in the course of the day, that really adds up.

Ties also have a shipping fee that is tacked on.  Lumber doesn't.  Then there's also a discount that some of the wholesalers take on lumber - less 2% if paid within 10 days, for example.  We get paid when they inspect the ties in our yard. 

When I do my cost comparison, I pretty much just look for a breakeven point where cutting lumber is equal to cutting ties. 

Log costs can be tricky, and a better way to think about it is that the interior of most logs are the same value.  The higher priced logs should yield better jacket boards, and be able to make up for the added value.  Most of the high value logs also have larger diameters to work with.  But, you have to get your value off of those jacket boards.  When value starts to slip, you need to go to plan B.   

In theory, all high value logs should saw to a pallet cant or better.  In practice, its a variable.  My experience has been that the longer I saw on a log, the lower the value of the boards.  At some point, you have to decide that its no longer worth the risk of pulling the next board. 

Log prices vs lumber prices is also a tricky comparison.  You probably have some overrun in there between the lumber footage and the log footage.  Without decent log yield studies, its hard to get a good grasp on what prices should be.

InspectorWoody,
I like your logic and approach.  When we saw a tie, we would likely get around 30 to 35 bf of lumber due to the loss of sawdust.  So, perhaps you should use this when when calculating the value when sawing into lumber rather than 42 bf of lumber.

Sawing white oak has always been a close call, as the white oak market has never been real strong, compared to red oak,cherry, walnut, etc.  we do often see q-sawn white oak doing well...barrel staves and export.  But the low grade seems hard to move.  Prices are given, but buyers are few.

This is the part that gets me. If number #2 and three are that low, and cants as well, why would you not convert that into pallet cut stock and nearly double your money. Just does not make sense to me. Again the question that begs, if softwood pallet lumber out of Canada goes for what its going, hardwood should be as much, if not more. If nothing else, cants should be much higher than .35 cents. I have to be missing something here, because it seems to me, hardwood pallet/cant prices have not kept up with softwood, for whatever reasons. According to my reckoning, a full 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 based on 452 per thousand on a fake board foot basis yields .66 cents a board foot. 5/8 x 5 1/2 is .72. 5/8 x 3 1/2 is .82 on a true board foot basis.

Kansas

Here is how I take your question of not cutting the low grade in to pallet cut stock etc. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  :D

You get more for pallet "parts" because you have added more cost to produce it. A 3.5x6 cant has to be re-manufactured, a low grade board has to be re-manufactured etc. etc. Your paying for extra equipment, extra employees etc.

Could I buy random width 3com for 250/mbf and re-manufacture it for pallet parts and make money. You bet I could. Is there enough there to make it worth it? That I don't know. If I did venture into it, I would request specified widths and lengths to maximize yield. So now the price jumps up to 325/MBF if not more.

Some mills only want to deal with so much.

Ron

As far as sawing cost, I was trying to refer to an overall per foot basis. Say we cut 45MBF/day. What does it cost us to produce each foot. $.20 or $.25? Equipment cost, employee cost etc. etc.

I was not aware of the shipping fee on ties. Does this apply when you truck your own?

I'm looking at an old tie PO. Shipment terms are delivered and Payment terms are Net 30. I don't see any notes of a fee.

I believe we do the 2% and maybe even a 10% but we do offer the Net 30.

If you have an average daily cost, and your volume is 45 Mbf/day (that's good production), you can arrive at an average sawing cost.  My mill is a lot smaller.  But, I do know that if I'm sawing locust, I'd be lucky to 7-8 Mbf/day, but sawing 16' tulip poplar I might get 17-18 Mbf.  All things being equal, which gives me the lowest mfg costs? 

I can even go to sawing 8' tulip poplar at 12 Mbf/ day, and that would give another sawing cost.  If you would look at sawing ties vs sawing everything down to boards and a cant, you would get another sawing cost value.  Its all a variable, and to plug one value in for all the species and diameter ranges isn't quite an accurate picture.  I know that I get better production in May and October than I do any other time of the year.  It may be about 10% difference. 

The tie buyers in our area have different zones, similar to pulpwood buyers.  They pay so much extra for shipping from each zone.  They don't pick up, so all trucking is either done on your trucks or whoever you sub to.  But, payment is the day they inspect the ties.  They mark the bundles so they can compare them at their yard to limit guys switching ties out.  They used to have mills take out the rejects, but found there was also some dishonesty there.

Some of the grade buyers use a discount for quick payment.  At 2%, that 1000 wood drops to 980.  Just something to keep in mind when comparing wood prices. 

There are lots of variables, and as markets change, so should your awareness of cutting practices.  What is right for one mill is not necessarily right for another. 

It continues. My pallet friend that uses Canadian lumber said his price has gone up once again, to 423 a thousand, FOB at the mill. That is on the fake board foot basis. My math skills seem to be suspect today, but as near as I can tell, that is a 47% increase from a year ago. On a standard deck 5/8 x 3 1/2 inch deck board, my guess is its getting close to 90 cents delivered in on a true board foot basis. But here is the kicker. He is having a heck of a time getting lumber in. He had someone wanting to price a block pallet, new lumber, which I assume to be a European type pallet. He has turned them down so far, but is trying to chase down Southern Yellow Pine. He told the lady who called, if I price them, you are going to scream about the price. His brokers tell him it is going up more. He told me anything he prices now is only good for 2-3 weeks. Its interesting that as a pallet builder, he doesn't view this positively. As a sawmill operation, I have a different view.

Kansas, what is the piece price on the boards. When you talk about fake and real, we all might not be on the same page. I believe the piece price would eliminate any confusion.

I have no clue what the term fake board feet means unless he is talking about nominal.

I think he's talking about the dimension sizes in softwoods.  He talked about it before, and refers to a 2x4 only being a 1½x3½.  His buddy is buying them in and converting to pallet boards.  A 5/8"x3½" deck board is getting 90 cents on a true basis.  So, the 2x4 "fake" @ $423/Mbf ends up costing $645 in "real" lumber.  Of course, this price would be better than cutting ties. 

I've tried to follow the logic, and I understand about cutting those 5/8" boards.  Lots of labor in them.  Around here, pallet cants are around $450 delivered.  The cost to peel them off is a lot higher, unless you're set up for it.  I only know of a handful of mills that fool around with them. 

I'm just wondering why his buddy doesn't buy pallet cants in softwoods instead of pine dimension stock delivered in from Canada.  He could also use some options or futures to hedge his costs. 

I'm sure Kansas will correct me if I'm wrong.   

So he is referring to nominal size.

I only read the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread, but I am not a logger so I wont throw my 2cents toward the profitability of sawing RRties. I do want to touch on another part of the tie discussion. Having worked for a major railroad for 37+years, most of them on traveling tie gangs. I have probably handled more ties than this entire group as a collective. I have installed the concrete ties and removed them just a few short years later because they wont stand up to the heavy tonnage of freight lines. I have also installed and removed composite ties, some made with wood chips, sawdust, plastics and glues, because they wouldnt hold up either. I have even installed, and later removed steel ties, that wouldnt do the job either. Wood has an amazing flexability that these other materials simply dont have. Anything to rigid will simply break like repeated bending of a wire. Simply put, the RR's use wood ties because they havent found a better material for the job, and believe me, they keep looking.

Also, not to bust anybodies bubble, I wouldnt look for RR's to be a major hualer of crude oil. When it comes to fuel, acohol will be what the railroads hual the most of. Not just the liquid itself, but also the grain and sugars used to make the ethanol is where the RR's will make their money. Most of the increase in track improvments are being made in the midwest where the corn is grown and the acohol is produced.

Someone mentioned the dangers of transporting crude oil and their by products in tank cars. Even went so far as to publish a few links to some serious incidents that had happend in the past. One would do well to not read to much into these reports posted, the newest one being over 30years old. The railroads have a tremendous safty record when it comes to hualing hazardous material. The trucking companies nor the pipe lines can boast of a better record. Still that doesnt mean the RR's would be a better fit for transporting refined or crude oil across the country. The reference was made to the tank capacity of a tank car compared to a truck tanker, well the same comparison can be made between a tank car and a pipe line. It simply cheaper and more efficient to hual the oil in a pipe line than it is in a tank car, whether by rail or truck.

As for the increased in the amount of track improvements being made, it might interest some to know that the railroads are not really hireing that many people to get the work done. Not even keeping up with the number of folks that retire each year. Layoffs are not that all uncommon and I know of one major railline that has actually cut back on the scheduled amount of track work to be done this year. Of course RR's look at the big picture over many years, not just this year or the next. If manufactureing ever returns to this country, then you can look for the railroads to be the main suppliers of material hualing. If imports increase, nothing beats a train for getting something from the West coast to the East coast in large quantities. Trucks can go where trains cant, but a train can hual more tonnage, greater distances, and on less fuel than a fleet of trucks.

The Railroad may want the Wood tie markets to think that concrete will replace them if their prices go too high.
Now that the secret is out they won't be able to hold that over their head for much longer.

Its not any secret.  If they stopped buying, the price of all low grade would slump.  If they buy too much, they force the price up.  It seems that they simply match the going to supply to anticipated demand.  These guys are pretty sophisticated buyers. 

Right now, they are hauling natural gas by special container on trucks to McCain foods to replace stove oil. At one time they had rail to the local plant but all the river valley rail system was taken up 25 years ago. This is at both processing plants.

News clip (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2013/03/04/nb-mcain-natural-gas.html)

This appears to be a market worth investigating especially since I need to try and make my next
mill purchase at least a break even proposition,

Is there a listing, directory or web-site of tie buyers in NY or the NE??

Good thread, lots of good information and experience  here.

Thanks
DGDrls

It might interest some of you to know that the railroads are some of the largest landowners in the country. RR tracks and right of ways are only a small portion of their land holdings. they do own massive amounts of timber land and do use their own timber for cross tie production. They need more ties, they just saw down a few more trees. Of course after the Conrail mergers, they also sold off a lot of their timber lands, both NS and CSX, in order to service some of the debt that they incrued because of the purchase, but the railroad still hold thousands of acres of timber land. While they do still buy ties from other sources, if prices get to high, they simply start cutting their own timber.

Those RR timber lands were sold off here in NB years ago. If you see NB Railroad Company on a sign here, it's owned by the Irvings. Irvings are a forest company, but do have some track and lease some to. But the rail road, like CN rail, don't own much outside of the rail bed, switch yards and shops. The river valley rail was abandoned 25 years ago and has reverted to DNR, the rail road doesn't own it. It's now the NB trail network. It will never return here. In my county there is very little land that isn't private land, any that aren't are 100 acre parcels scattered hither and yawn that are mostly all cut off. The Irvings have so many companies that it made a couple interesting books. When my grandfather was very young back before the depression he used to go with his father and guide for the Dead River Company on the Restigouche R, for salmon. The Irvings bought the company out, they still exist, and he never cared for Irvings all the rest of his life. The Irvings still have that fishing lodge and have exclusive rights to the water and the fishing. That was why he never liked them.

I have noticed a fair amount of rail tie work here in the Northern NY Region above Watertown,
Has the price on ties moved at all?

DGD

While working this week out in the bush, the area happened to be near a freight rail line. I saw car after car of petroleum roll by one day on a block that bordered the rail road. On this block I had to watch out for old fencing that is mostly disintegrated, but hard on saw blades.  :-\

Only thing I have heard about ties is that a new log buyer started up a couple of months ago and is paying $75.00 per thousand more for tie timber than anyone else and trucking the logs 150 miles. Needless to say, he is getting all the logs. Either he is gambling big time or he has a better market.

What is the going rate for good oak tie logs in your area ????

225 to 250, before this guy came along.

250 here in MO picked up at the landing price.

So  $225-250/thousand  for materials

What are buyers paying per tie delivered ?

Thanks
DGD

Oak 7x9-$21.00, mixed hardwood  7x9 $20.50, 6x8 $12.75.

I'm assuming those log prices to be in Doyle scale.  Its hard to make a direct correlation from one scale to the other.  You're looking at around $477 on the oak, and $465 on the mixed hdwd.

Theoretically, you can cut a 7x9 from a 12" log.  In Doyle scale at $250, you only pay $8 for material.  In a 13" log, that goes up to $10.25, but you'll be getting more in side cuts.  At 17", there is a breakeven point where the tie pays for the log.  Your operating costs and profit needs to come from your woodwaste and your side cuts. 

What's happened to the #3 log values?  Have they moved up along with the tie log price or have they remained low?

The local buyer prefers 9 foo ties. That brings oak down to $.440. It is Doyle. To get the numbers you are talking you have to be buying 8 foot logs. Around here the market is good enough for what logs are left that you will not get any logs. Most of the loggers anymore won't hardly cut less than 10 feet. If you have to buy a 12" log at 10 ' at 250 then the price goes to $10.00. What passes for tie timber around here anymore is not hardly worth taking side lumber. We had an ice storm a few years that has changed our markets completely. Now that the glut is over the demand is out running the supply.

Around here, a 9' log gets scaled as an 8' log.  There is no tie log category for 10' logs, so they would grade out at #3.  We converted some of that #3 wood into firewood. 

I remember about 10 years ago when they were saying that there was going to be a shortage of loggers.  That would crimp supply pretty well and force prices up. 

As far as I know, in this immediate area, I was the last one cutting ties that was strictly buying the logs. The other tie cutters also log. I should say the other guy. He is the only small mill left cutting ties now.

Tie timber used to be 8'6", bought for 8'. Can't do that anymore. Everything to do with the local market has completely changed in the last few years.  There used to be a small mill just every couple of miles. Brokers would travel the country trying to buy tie siding. 

10 ft. ties delivered to the tieyard $32.50. Just went up about a month ago.

There's not a very well established tie market around here. Loggers don't have the tie log frame of mind. 8' logs are 8' logs, and 4-6" of trim is haphazard. If you buy 8' logs, a lot of them won't make a tie because they're not quite 8'6. That puts you buying 10' logs and looking for a market for 7"x9"x18" garage blocks. I've told Profdan to cut all my 8' logs long enough to make a tie from, but I still haven't cut the first tie. I tried to make one today and ended up with a little too much wane. Should have paid a little more attention to the toe-boards! ::)

Okra
Just have to ask... Who is Profdan ?

That's why they have tie logs and #3 logs.  A tie log has what's necessary to make the grade, including over length.  They pay more for the tie log than for the #3 to give the logger the incentive to make tie cut.  Loggers will than make all the lower grade logs long enough to make ties.

I always noticed that many of the better quality logs are cut 10'.  That's just in case they might make veneer, they're long enough.  Same market strategy.

Quote from: beenthere on June 04, 2013, 10:41:16 PM
Okra
Just have to ask... Who is Profdan ?

He is an FF member but I think he has only posted once. I tend to send him emails with links to topics relevant to his operation, since he is usually too busy to browse FF himself. I worked for him for three years, and I still associate with him as one of my chief log suppliers.

Quoteas one of my chief log suppliers.

Thanks, so he is a logger?   or runs a sawmill where you can buy some logs?

He's primarily a tree surgeon.

Our sawn ties($22/18/13) prices have not changed but the price of oak flooring lumber has almost doubled since last summer. 2&3A oak is netting us about 680mbf after freight and 2% net 10 day payment. Sawing 12-14" logs and leaving a 7x9 I get a 50-55% over-run. Including culls and Industrials the math works out like this on a 13" 40 bd ft(doyle scale) tie log. The log will yield..20' of lumber at $.68 = $13.60 for the lumber plus 42' in a tie that averages $20.00(10% cull and Industrials) thats $33.60 in sales per 40' log. Figuring a bandmill sawing rate of $.30 for 62' = $18.60. Lumber and tie value of $33.60-$18.60 sawing costs leaves a log value of $15.00 or $.375mbf. My operating costs on the LT70 including labor and work comp run around $200mbf so I can figure a .10 profit paying $.375 for oak tie logs. Your competitor likely has lower operating cost than my bandmill does. He isn't getting more for his ties; he is marketing his lumber to flooring mills that are paying $100-140 over Hardwood Market Report for 2&3A lumber.

I really need to find a flooring buyer near me where I can sell my 2 and 3.

Wow any log out west that would make make a tie is worth 80,00 per thousand on truck

Captain crunch, trying to understand your figures. It surely isn't 8000 dollars a thousand. And 800 would be too pricy still.

And 80.00 would be too little.

Bump to an old thread. My Amish Neighbor has a circle mill and is interested in cutting RR ties. Located in Upstate NY. Anyone have any info I could get and a company that buys ties that I could contact?

thanks for your time

Maybe fill out your bio in your profile, then we would have an idea where you are from.  That would be important to give you good information. ;)

Quote from: firecatf7333 on January 13, 2014, 09:37:18 PM
Bump to an old thread. My Amish Neighbor has a circle mill and is interested in cutting RR ties. Located in Upstate NY. Anyone have any info I could get and a company that buys ties that I could contact?

thanks for your time

.

The guy was just trying to run up his post count for some reason from what we can see. I'll leave this post here, just in case there is some validity to it, but I just got done deleting a bunch of welcome to the forum post this guy just made to members that have been here for years. This post was the only one left after we got done sweeping up.

Here in Canada at least, the amount of crude on rail has grown exponentially.  Now we have western farmers sitting on grain and can't get grain moved in a timely manner because of oil cargo. Although CP claims increased rail service (a record) for shipping grain this season. There was a huge surplus in the west because of yield. But essentially, absolutely no new track lines. In fact there are lines in real need to have rotten ties replaced. So if ties are so cheap, it's not reflected in what's getting done.

The tie replacing crew recently came through on one of our lines.  That is one well organized process.   ;D

I am getting my mill ready and working through the learning curve. I have been told that ties may be a means of business. There is a sawyer near me that cuts azobe nearly exclusively for the railroad. He told me that once I'm up and running, he would keep me busy with all the work I want from his "turn aways" that he cant get to.

One customer he turned away would pay for just the ties from the logs that he would have delivered and nothing else. Any good wood left would be profit. That was about a year and a half ago. He believes that that customer may still be in the market. The sawyer I know will help me with what he can if it's something I want to do.

I have a Frick "0" with plenty of power. My question is,  is this something that a novice should approach or be left to the mass production pro's and does anyone know what green ties are going for in central Alabama?

Many other questions but feasibility would be the first issue I believe.

I've worked with guys that do as little as a couple of lifts a week, to ones that do close to a load a day.  A lot depends on who you send to, and who does the trucking.  One thing you will need is some dead rolls, at a minimum.  If you're going to claim the sidecuts, then you'll need an edger.  Edging at the headsaw is a dead end street.  You will also need 1-2 helpers.  On a mill similar to yours, I would be able to saw about 5 Mbf/day with 2 helpers. 

If you're not delivering ties close by, then you should work to get a trailer load, which is about 200 ties.  If you deliver close by, you can deliver smaller loads, but your trucking costs are inflated.

No matter what you cut, your'e going to need alternative markets.  Not all logs will make ties.  You should have a market for pallet boards and cants, something for your sidecuts (either grade or flooring), and markets for slabs and sawdust.  You will also need a consistent log supply.  Without those, its going to be a struggle.  I've seen mills go under because they don't have all those things tied together.

Tie specs are limited by species, and length.  Length varies by tie buyers.  Here in the NE, its 8'6" as a minimum, and the Midwest its 9'.  There are limitations on the amount of bark (which has to be removed), as well as shake, double heart, splits and the like.  Get to know what your inspector will take.  Rejects only pay $5. 

There are quite a few chicken houses and horse farms nearby that are already asking about sawdust. I don't believe there will be much trouble selling it based on what a sawyer friend told me.

I have a Corley edger that needs work but that's coming fairly soon. I believe I will put it on separate power rather than try to run it of my mill power. I should have enough horse power, but the flat belt to run it may be longer than I want.

I found the Railroad Tie Association's website, They have a page that has the standards for ties. http://www.rta.org/assets/docs/rtaspecificationsbooklet.pdf

It looks like this is something that I really should consider.

There's a small hardwood mill some distance from here, but has been in operation for at least 25 years, run by the third generation in the family. They get cheaper wood than most small hardwood mills you think of in the US because it's off public lands for the most part. They do buy private wood, but that is mostly subject to crown wood prices. Anyway, they saw a lot of ties, and the gravy is in the figured side lumber which is curly and birdseye. And I think they always sold it and the regular run of the mill lumber to places that warehouse it, like Maritime Lumber where it gets dried. Maritime lumber was sold to someone else that ran it into the ground within a year or so. Too bad to, because that was a great set up for around here. The old fellow that sold was retiring and in his late 70's, ran it 25-30 years I think.

A few days ago, I saw where BNSF is pulling up and replacing concrete ties on a long stretch just outside Omaha. Gotta be good for the tie market.

Letting things slide like they did to a point of no return back in the 1980's will only make it easier for more rail lines here to close. They let bridges and track wash away into the river. I have been hearing on the radio of many more stretches of track getting bad. Via rail has cut way back on passenger service here and would be just as happy letting their Maritime line disappear altogether. In fact that is the direction they are headed.

Quote from: 5quarter on January 24, 2014, 05:39:37 PM
A few days ago, I saw where BNSF is pulling up and replacing concrete ties on a long stretch just outside Omaha. Gotta be good for the tie market.

That's on one of there main lines from the coal fields in N Dakota to at least Kansas City or even further south.  When I lived in north Missouri I watched them replace all the wood ties with concrete.  That was in the late 80's.

This time of the year it was common to count 10 coal trains an hour running day and night.  I hardly ever saw track maintenance at this time of the year just because of the traffic.

35 years on a tie is pretty good life.  I've seen where the wood life is only about 8-10 years.  A lot depends on climate, haul weights and who's doing the study.. 

I've read that the cars are 25% bigger than what they were.  If you're running bigger cars, the old concrete won't hold up.  It also tears up wooden ties a lot quicker. 

Around here, we have two main RR's that go right through the area, and in some places their tracks are barely 100 yards apart. One of them is replacing a lot of ties right now, I believe it is CSX. CSX seems to be running a lot of container trains (contrainers?) these days, and a lot of those cars seem to have a single tandem truck dolly between two spans instead of actually being two separate cars. Obviously this would cut down on rolling stock cost, weight, and maintenance, and possibly have other benefits, but I wonder if it puts more stress on the track having fewer wheels per length of train. I suppose it all depends on the weight of the freight. Norfolk Southern is pulling a lot of tank cars here recently. We do have a biodiesel plant in our area. I also see a lot of cars that are ventilated and look a bit like cattle cars, but on closer inspection you can see automobiles inside them. So those are car cars.  ::) There's a lot of traffic on the rails, but no 10 trains per hour. Maybe one to two per hour, not sure.

So-- any movement in tie prices?

When Dr. Gene started this thread we were getting $21 for 7x9 ties. We got paid $30 this week.

Usual up's and downs and people react. ;)

We are actually seeing a shortage of rail service, as western wheat is still not all sold because it can't get shipped. If there is a boon on rail service they better get going. ;)

Ther are three big mills near me. All of them have the ability to cut ties and they do. But one of them is set up for mainly ties. They have been running wide open with the prices the way they are. One of the other mills is set up mainly for grade lumber, the lumber prices on oak and hickory are through the roof right now, and that mill is running two shifts for the first time ever. The third mill is set up mainly for pallet and pulp operations. The loggers in this area ar running themselves RAW trying to keep up. I guess this is a good thing.

Just curious what ties are bring in different areas now?

In my neck of the woods 7x9x8'8" are bringing $27

Yeah, no big gold mine when there is lots of supply. ;) Go into Kent (Irvings) for a hardwood board 8" x3/4" 8' long and finished and pay $80 a board. :D

7x9x8'8" still $30

All,

      I do not know how far along they are with the process, cost or production capabilities but there is some on-going research to make railroad ties and similar products from old tires. I do not know how long they would last but I would think they would last longer than treated wood ties and I would assume if they ever broke down they could be recycled like melting down old aluminum cans. This looks to me like a good outlet for recycling car and truck tires.

     Also has anyone ever sold poplar for ties? Is there a market for them or are they too soft?

     Have a happy and safe holiday season.

I have never sold any poplar to the RR industry. 

Recycled rubber would be interesting.  But, how well does it hold a spike?  How rigid are they sitting in the sun on a 100° day? 

Ron,

    I don't know how well the recycled  tires hold a spike. I'd estimate they would do okay. I have heard of them being used for fence posts and they had very similar properties to wood. Wires in the treads could cut or scratch you but not that much different than splinters in wood.

    I hate to hear poplar (I'm thinking of tulip polar) not used for ties. I have a mill (WM LT35 hyd) coming in a couple weeks and have a good bit of excess poplar I'd like to thin and thought this might be an outlet for them. Thanks for the reply though.

I worked on a project in Alberta recently for loading Crude Oil Trains or Unit trains. The create a loop so they can pull the entire train (118 cars) off the main line onto the property.  Anyhow they were using metal ties which were more expensive but they claimed it was offset by using less ballast (rock bed under the track).  Not sure if there was an advantage.  ??? To Doc's point, the unit trains do move a lot of oil faster than a pipeline which makes it popular.  Hauling crude from Alberta to Houston for refining would be as much or just a bit more per barrel as a pipline but much faster.  However, if they can can get a back haul of condensate or something back to Alberta then the cost is much cheaper.  Trains are going to be around for a long time....gonna need wood ties as I dont think the metal ones are catching on :D

I was just talking to an old timer who was telling me his grandfather used to mill ties here in Maine from Cedar in the early 1900's and when this fella, now 80, was a young man--in the 60's they used a bunch of those cedar ties to form the foundation of a large cabin and it's still there!

  "rubber ties"    I remember several years back the tie company we were selling to swap to some kind of plastic rr tie so they cut us off.  About two yrs later same buyer came back and got real mad when we wouldnt   sell him any ties. The boss simply told him he hadnt missed a check since they dropped us so look somewhere else  :D. I suspect rubber would be same way. i know they have tried concrete,steel and plastic but always come back to wood.  Run out of wood you run out of rr. ;D

Why they would want to go rubber or whatever is a mystery. It must be some localized experimenting. I never seen anything but hardwood ties here. They don't have "play money" in these parts to experiment with. ;) We barely have a railroad left because they never invested in it to at least fix stuff.

Ron, et. al,

    Following is a quote from a US EPA document listing proposed recycling methods for old tires. Other sources I reviewed indicated the grip of nails and such as comparable to wood. When I first heard of it I thought it was a creative use of a problem asset. I do not know the cost to manufacture or what other environmental problems they may create but it did seem like a good method to get rid of old tires. I do not know if they are more subject to fire/burning than wood or other issues. They would seem to be more resistant to rot and insect damage. They would seem to have flexibility to resist some of the problems associated with rigid materials like concrete. They look like they would be preferable in very wet environments.

"Railroad Ties – Highly durable, rubber-encased railroad ties are being produced using scrap tires. These railroad ties have a steel-beam core filled with concrete that is then encased in 80 pounds of ground-up scrap tires and discarded plastic bottles, held together with a special binder or glue. These railroad ties are over 200% stronger than creosote-soaked wooden ties, enabling railroads to use fewer ties per mile. Moreover, rubber-encased railroad ties could last 60 to 90 years versus 5 to 30 years for wood."

    I am not advocating their use over wood. Just advising the technology is in the works and does help dispose of a problem waste product.

7 ' s are 33.00 here

Oops. 7x9's

most of us will never know if they last 60-90 yrs. :D  but seriously as a nation we do waste so much it is crazy  i am a big supporter of recycling anything possible.  Thats one of the reasons i run a band mill in stead of circle. I could have bought a circle mill for 10000 less than my b 20 less than 10 miles from my house but it took 5 men and about 40 bucks an hour for diesel add in the extra kerf and you saw 1000 ties per week and make the same amount of money as with my b 20. just makes no sense to me

I did some searching on the rubber RR ties.  Seems that they came up with it back in the early '90s.  Another was a company that was going to produce them.  Went to their website and there was scant information on it.  Seems if it was a big marketable product, they would have it plastered all over the place. 

I think there are several things in play.  Just because you have a product, doesn't mean you have a market.  Recycled ties have a place, and they may even be more desirable.  It doesn't mean that they can crack the market.  Tried and true often outweighs new technology.

Economics can be another factor.  Getting material to recycle is relatively cheap when there isn't much of a demand.  When I did work recycling urban timber, we could get logs for free.  We could have gotten them for a tipping fee if it was allowed.  But, there were no other mills in the area.  Our competition was mulchers who did charge a tipping fee.  We got plenty of logs.

If they could produce a tie cheaper, then demand would rise, but so would the demand for the base material.  And, if profit levels would be high, more producers would come on line.  That would make demand for the base materials even greater, and costs would go up.  We have to pay $5 to have tires recycled.  What would base costs be if they paid $5 to buy the tires?

In addition, you have the market force of the entrenched current suppliers.  Would supply dry up if they dropped price by $1-2?  Probably not, since there isn't an alternate market large enough to take in the supply.  That drop in price would be driven back to the stump.

I'm not overly concerned about recycled material coming into the marketplace, at this time.  We can grow trees and mfg ties rather cheaply compared to the capital outlay to build a recycling plant.  Maybe sometime in the future they will be able to make it cheaply with a big 3-D printer. 

Not about rubber ties, but when I was in France over the holidays, I noticed that they use concrete tires for nearly all of their railroad ties near Paris. They have huge piles of concrete ties like we have wooden ones. Just interesting...

I have seen some concrete ties up here

Quote from: kilgrosh on January 06, 2015, 12:22:54 PM
... when I was in France over the holidays, I noticed that they use concrete tires ...

No wonder French-made cars aren't very popular!   :D

Quote from: SawyerBrown on January 07, 2015, 02:05:01 PM

Quote from: kilgrosh on January 06, 2015, 12:22:54 PM
... when I was in France over the holidays, I noticed that they use concrete tires ...

No wonder French-made cars aren't very popular!   :D

Ha, nice!

Well, I'm not sure what price ties are going for, but my parents are having their fifteen acres or so of hardwoods logged off right now (heavy selective cut, leaving as many small trees and a few selected favorite species as possible) and I'm glad they waited until now instead of back when ties were $20. Not sure what ties are in their part of western Kentucky, but the logger said tie logs were a major driver for them as they do the job. They are using chainsaw and cable skidder. I think they're getting mostly oak but some other hardwoods as well. Dad was pleased with the price he's getting, and it sounds like the logger is being considerate with the land (Dad keeps an eye on him and pokes around with his D-2 to smooth up the trails and clean up after them a bit).

As of today sawn 7x9s ties are bringing $40 in KY

Concrete ties have become the norm here over the last 20 or so years. They still use wood on bridges, points, in the yards... but the main lines are steadily going to concrete. Dedicated tie operations are definitely a thing of the past in my part of the world

There are also trials being done or recycled plastic ties now. The data looks good ( for plastic), the higher initial cost is compensated for by a longer service life/ less maintenance.

Thing being that in either case - concrete or plastic - you can't mix and match them with wood. So replacement of wood ties with wood ties is going to be ongoing even as a roll out of new materials occurs.

So does anybody have any updates on tie prices now-a-days?

Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 04, 2022, 10:35:36 PM
So does anybody have any updates on tie prices now-a-days?

$40 for 7x9

Sounds a lot like your last reply on this matter. ;D
Interesting that is the title of this thread.