The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Ask The Forester => Topic started by: wheelinguy on March 11, 2012, 06:16:03 PM

Title: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: wheelinguy on March 11, 2012, 06:16:03 PM
Maybe its simple but I was wondeing how to tell the difference between ash and basswood, especially in winter?  They seem to have similar bark, even when they are cut down I think that they are hard to tell apart.  I'm not even totally sure how to tell them apart in the summer????
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Al_Smith on March 11, 2012, 06:58:20 PM
In Ohio the ash trees are the ones that are dead .

Ash has 5 leaves per stalk or twig whatever you call it .Basswood ,Linden has leaves as wide as they are long .
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Linda on March 11, 2012, 10:47:35 PM
Ash bark is a little lighter in color & kind of looks like it's been scrubbed. Basswood bark is a little darker in color & has more defined vertical lines with flatter tops on the ridges.

Check out these pictures I found online:

ASH - http://treedoctor.anr.msu.edu/ash/ashtree_id.html

BASSWOOD - http://ontariotrees.com/main/species.php?id=2016
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: WDH on March 11, 2012, 11:02:16 PM
Ash has opposite branching while basswood has alternate branching, so all you have to do is look up at the branches.

Ash has a compound leaf with 5 or more leaflets.  Basswood has a simple heart shape leaf.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Clark on March 12, 2012, 12:51:03 AM
In the winter with no leaves things can become more difficult.  Some random thoughts on things that stick out to me:

All ash buds are very large and combined with the opposite branching it's a dead giveaway (although red maple meets those critieria!) that it's an ash.  Basswood buds have a red bud scales and an alternate branching pattern.  Basswood also tends to grow very well from stump sprouts so seeing groups of 3-8 mature trees growing from one stump is not uncommon.  It's uncommon for ash to have more than 2 or 3 from one stump.

Clark
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: WDH on March 12, 2012, 01:18:43 AM
Basswood buds are in-equilateral.  That is, they sit slightly to the side of the leaf scar versus directly on top of the leaf scar like almost all other species.  Once you see this in the field, you will own basswood ID.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 12, 2012, 04:48:46 AM
Basswood buds are pretty large too, but the terminal bud is canted outward. My father used to confuse it for hard maple, by just the bark. And we cut it in areas that had a lot of ash to. Our white ash bark is brown with white blotches up here. Some really old ones get grey bark though, but most often a scrape with an axe will reveal brown or orange brown. I find the crowns are quite distinct. I can pick out the basswoods from a long way off my looking at the tops and it most always grows in with ash up here. Ash limbs are more upswept and basswood more lateral. I believe this is a trait from being very shade tolerant, which ash is not.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: MHineman on March 12, 2012, 08:16:11 AM
  The easiest way is to put a saw into the wood.  Basswood cuts a lot easier.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: cutterboy on March 12, 2012, 08:48:59 PM
Thanks Wheelinguy for asking your question. I have some trees growing with ash that look like ash in the bark but the leaves are wrong. Now I think they are basswood.

Does basswood make good Lumber?
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: wheelinguy on March 12, 2012, 09:14:53 PM
when its dry its very lightweight, lots of carvers seem to like it,
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Al_Smith on March 12, 2012, 09:15:14 PM
It's soft .I guess they use it for certain musical instruments .Other than that I know of no other commercial use .

I have about a truck load left from about a two cord pile which I've given most away for firewood .It burns okay it just takes a lot of it .
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: WDH on March 12, 2012, 10:11:07 PM
It has specialty uses like for carving blocks, but it is not used in most applications because it is so soft.  You never see any basswood plantations, and there is a reason why.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: MHineman on March 12, 2012, 11:15:23 PM
  Venetian blinds were made of basswood, but probably most are some type of plastic now.
  I sawed Basswood for a farmer a couple years ago as 6/4 boards.  He used them for siding on a shed for 4-H calves.  He covered it with used motor oil.  It seems to be holding up fairly well.
  I've got several logs to saw and I'm going to use them for siding on a chicken house.  I'll use good paint instead of motor oil. 
  My understanding is it light weight, medium to light strength, and must be protected from weather by paint, etc.
  Time will tell how well they hold up.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Dodgy Loner on March 12, 2012, 11:47:14 PM
Basswood twigs are much thinner than ash twigs as well. Ash has larger leaves, and therefore requires thicker branches to support the leaves. It takes a bit of "calibration" before you can pick out the different immediately, but it will come with practice.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 13, 2012, 06:01:37 AM
My grandfather used it for trim board around the counter top of the cupboards years ago. There is really nothing special about it, in fact not much character, pretty boring stuff. ;) Every town around here seems to have one or two native basswoods on the main street. They get huge. I guess the nice thing about basswood is it's form and flowering, it can stand some hard pruning and the fact it heals fast after injury. I have three I transplanted from the woods on the farm to the lawn. It's not common here, but not rare. In NB it mainly grows here along the farming belt of the St John River. I never actually began noticing it until the mid-90's when I began tramping a lot of local woodlots. Dad never knew what it was actually, yet it grew on all the farms he owned. On the woodlot I discovered a big old stump beside a cedar stand, right where the land changes from moist to very wet. It has suckered and I trim it every once in awhile to encourage a couple stems. It has flowered now for a couple years. I've been taking seed from the yard and transporting it to the woodlot. Never seen one germinate yet though. Tough stuff to grow, but once it takes hold tough to kill to. ;D Basswood up here has huge heart-shaped leaves, I would bet they weigh as much as any ash leaf.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Clark on March 13, 2012, 11:22:59 AM
Quote from: WDH on March 12, 2012, 10:11:07 PM
It has specialty uses like for carving blocks, but it is not used in most applications because it is so soft.  You never see any basswood plantations, and there is a reason why.

It's also the preferred wood of trappers to use for fur stretchers because it's soft, easily worked and has no pitch in it.

Nobody grows plantations of it but up here there are places where it occurs naturally in nearly pure stands.  It also happens to be our hardwood with the best form and growth rate, aspen aside (I find it tough to call it aspen hardwood but basswood in my book is, we are all full of contradictions!)  Most foresters around here will tell you that basswood is the junkiest tree in the woods but they have their wires crossed.  They are thinking of markets and applying that to the tree's form.   I have measured basswood 80' tall, straight as a gun barrel and the first limb was 50' up.  No other species will grow like that here.

Clark
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Ron Wenrich on March 14, 2012, 06:37:49 AM
I don't see many plantations of hardwoods, other than apple, peach and pear.  Never seen any for fiber production, although they tried it with hybrid poplar and willow for fuel.  Must be the area.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 14, 2012, 06:50:59 AM
I planted about 3500 yellow birch on the woodlot one time. Within a week the hare and moose dealt with them. They were inter-planted with other species and those critters have yellow birch radar I guess. Heck the moose come up to the yard to each some I planted back there, about 500 or so. A few got by and I have a pretty nice looking yellow birch stand growing. :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_yellow_birch_Pl1.jpg)

These are from seed I collected and the provincial seed center extracted and stored it. A nursery in NS grew them. They were 12-18" tall when I sunk them in. Grown in Jiffy.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: WDH on March 14, 2012, 08:41:12 AM
I have seen cottonwood, sycamore, sweetgum, and yellow poplar for short rotation pulpwood, all soft hardwoods.  I have never seen a hard hardwood plantation except for pecan.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: MHineman on March 14, 2012, 10:26:21 AM
  There are a few Walnut plantations here, but most tree plantings are mixed hardwoods.  Usually Walnut, Cherry, Poplar, Red Oak, and White Oak with a few other species for good measure. 
  Pines or fast growing, but short lived hardwoods are sometimes interplanted to keep the more valuable hardwoods reaching for the sun.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 14, 2012, 11:19:09 AM
Up here the initial advantage in height growth is by the hardwoods, but in the end the softwoods tower above the hardwoods. A couple of exceptions for dominant height would be balsam fir and white cedar, they're not as tall as spruce, hemlock and pine when mature. Every one though, with the exception of white pine, are very shade tolerant. A balsam fir can be 50 years old and only 3 feet tall because of suppression.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Dodgy Loner on March 14, 2012, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: WDH on March 14, 2012, 08:41:12 AM
I have seen cottonwood, sycamore, sweetgum, and yellow poplar for short rotation pulpwood, all soft hardwoods.  I have never seen a hard hardwood plantation except for pecan.

Au contraire, Danny! I'm quite certain that you have seen a hard hardwood plantation besides pecan :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15533/eucalyptus_plantation.jpg)
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: 711ac on March 14, 2012, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: WDH on March 11, 2012, 11:02:16 PM
Ash has opposite branching while basswood has alternate branching, so all you have to do is look up at the branches.

Ash has a compound leaf with 5 or more leaflets.  Basswood has a simple heart shape leaf.
This is what was explained to me by a state forester here,(in the winter, no leaves) and it is crystal clear to me now! Don't even look at the bark, it's like too many other trees.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: WDH on March 14, 2012, 10:46:43 PM
Justin, I stand corrected  :).  I have seen a whack of hard hardwood plantations, just not in North America  ;D.

Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Jeff on March 14, 2012, 11:15:18 PM
At our mill the yard guys were forever having ash logs mixed with the basswood and basswood mixed with the ash.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Al_Smith on March 14, 2012, 11:18:38 PM
Bass wood/linden can get huge .A yard tree will spread out like an oak with a huge canopy .

My ex wifes grandparents had one that was over 5 feet in diameter that  grew in about 60 years that fat .Danged thing cracked the sidewalk and shot big limbs right over the house .Whoever bought the farm when the old folks passed on must have gotten annoyed with it because it's gone now .
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: WDH on March 14, 2012, 11:50:13 PM
As you move up the tree, basswood bark tends to get less rough and a little more smooth.  There can be little bumps or pimples on the upper bark.  That is never the case with ash.  Ash is rough and stays rough. 
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Ron Wenrich on March 15, 2012, 06:15:01 AM
We get tulip poplar and ash mixed together.  You wouldn't think there is much of a problem since the heartwood of ash is brown and for poplar its green.  But, one of the truckers would unload the logs, and he was color blind.  He couldn't see green. 

We don't get too much basswood.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 15, 2012, 06:20:40 AM
I wonder if you could count all the spaced maple and birch stands I thinned over the years as plantations?  The only difference is nature planted them. I'm not talking spacing of large trees, just stuff 2-5 inches diameter and maybe as tall as 25 feet. ;D :D
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: WDH on March 15, 2012, 08:17:57 AM
You just helped mother nature.  If mother nature does it, it is a Forest versus a Plantation. 
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: Al_Smith on March 15, 2012, 10:10:49 AM
About the only thing I've seen "planted " other than southern lumber pines in the Carolinas was hybred poplar .

They got on that kick maybe 25-30 years ago for firewood but it never worked so well .They'd have been better off to just plant corn and call it a day .If nothng else they could have made moonshine out of it .Instead they got spindley little trees about as soft as balsa .

It was one of those brain storms that came from mother earth news .Might not have been a bad idea in areas where it was either too steep to farm or the ground was so poor it wouldn't hardly grow a weed .Poor usage of good arable farm land IMO .
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: lumberjack48 on March 17, 2012, 08:32:05 PM
Basswood and Black Ash are completely to different trees here, like night and day, and a White Ash stands out.

I took all the W Ash home for firewood. I've had guys come on the job for firewood, they would start cutting Basswood. They'd tell me how nice the wood was. Then I'd have to explain to-em that the wood they've been cutting isn't worth hauling home. I'd take a little time and show-em what to look for when choosing wood.

I loved cutting Big Basswood, theres nothing that cds up like it. The biggest in i cut was 5', between Dunbar and Twin lakes, that is Basswood country.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: cutterboy on April 16, 2012, 07:58:13 PM
Well I'll be DanGed! I had a guy stop and ask if I had any basswood lumber for sale. He wanted to make some kind of inside shutters for his windows. He said to buy them it would cost $500 a pair and he has 22 windows so he wants to make them. He said the directions call for basswood.

I think I'm going to log and saw some of my basswood trees and have the lumber on hand.
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 16, 2012, 08:32:49 PM
Yeah, on the Canadian Woodworking Forum, someone is making plantation shutters. (http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?44666-Finally-a-workable-means-to-making-plantations-shutters-but-with-caveats.)
Title: Re: ID Ash and Basswood
Post by: cutterboy on April 17, 2012, 06:15:51 PM
That's it! Plantation shutters! That's what he told me but I couldn't remember the name.

Thanks SwampDonkey.