The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Timber Framing/Log construction => Topic started by: ljmathias on December 31, 2010, 11:05:20 AM

Title: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on December 31, 2010, 11:05:20 AM
although it will have at least one "bent" in it... my daughter's house has finally taken shape in our minds (not an easy task, getting two creative minds to agree on anything, let alone an entire house).  She sifted through plans, daydreamed some and found the perfect compromise- if any compromise is ever anything but less then perfect- hence, it's name.  In any event, we've gotten approvals needed, had the "perc" test done and passed, and put in a red clay driveway with maybe enough gravel on top to keep from making a skating rink for cars when it rains, so now to the plans and building itself.  I'll detail more of the prep work on my own, but my lovely daughter has begun a blog detailing her version of reality, such as it is: http://measureoncecusstwice.blogspot.com/  I was surprised and delighted at her insights and outpourings, so I throw it out to you all for comment.

My plan here is to summarize the process of building a hybrid house, mixed timber framing and stick building, although that really begs the whole thing, in fact.  I'm cheating in lots of ways, using pre-fab trusses (not at all easy for the design she's chosen but we have a very creative truss engineer housed in the local manufacturing facility) and mostly stick built.  Reason for this is simple: I'll be doing most of the work alone, although she wants to help and her son, my oldest grandson, has good intentions but no training and a mind that wanders in such a creative way it's hard to break into submission.  Fact is, she just had shoulder surgery to repair a broken bone and torn rotator cuff so she's not going to be much use for several months... Oh, and the timberframing part?  That will only involve a two story bent that will serve to support a loft we've added to the plans, and the rafter trusses for the cathedral ceiling in half the house- only 16' or so wide at the widest although I may stretch that to 20' to cover the stair landing and add some dimension to the entry upstairs.  Overall a not-so-big house (picture below) with a 938 sq-ft footprint and maybe 1500 sq-ft total usable space; not big but big enough for two people (for now) and hopefully within the budget I have available to build it without a mortgage- not going to be easy and we'll have to do most of the work ourselves; lucky my son is a plumber and good worker, and may have free time I can hire him for over the next few months of the on-going recession that has hit us so hard here.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/house_resized.jpg)

If there's interest here, I'll give details; if not, maybe just summarize key points.  One thing I've learned is that, no matter how much you think you've learned, you really don't know much (substitute "me" and "I" for you...), so maybe there are other members of the forum who would like a step-by-step description of the process of building a house with a most-of-the-time one-man crew of semi-retired educators who is just knowledgeable enough to get himself into trouble, over and over again...

So anyway, to get started, here are some pictures of the first couple of steps- the first two below are of the knoll and after clearing trees from the knoll where the house will be (trees to be used in building the actual house).



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/the_knoll.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/knoll_cleared.jpg)

Turns out, driving a 4WD tractor up to the knoll is not the same as getting a dirt truck or cement truck up there; for that, we had to actually build a driveway with a good culvert for the occasional water that flows through the "branch" that is in the way... and the next few pictures show how red the fill clay is we use, the antique John Deere bulldozer belonging to a subcontractor my son has worked with before, and pictures of my daughter Jessie "holding" the dozer in her hand, the grandkids "helping" next to where I drilled my post auger into the ground and couldn't get it back out (no reverse on my PTO) plus the oldest grandson (River Moses, who will one day live in the new house) and third oldest grandson (Judah) walking up to the knoll from our house across the creek- just a stone's throw away assuming you have a really, really good throwing arm.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/jessie_holding_the_dozer.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/grandkids_and_tractor.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/River_and_Judah.jpg)

Ok, enough for now; hope this wasn't too boring but today's a rain day here and I'm stuck inside with too much time on my hands...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on December 31, 2010, 01:18:39 PM
Looking forward to this! Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Brad_bb on December 31, 2010, 06:19:13 PM
Did you clear all the trees off the knoll?  I like the idea of working WITH what's there.  Besides it takes them so long to grow.  I hate removing them if not necessary.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on December 31, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
Heavens' no and perish the thought: the trees are part of what makes that place so special for us.  They had been planted by the previous owner and although in need of thinning, offer a beautifully secluded location but one that still has a decent view of the meadow and stream in the valley, so no, we only cleared just enough trees to make a foundation.  Start layout tomorrow if the rain lets up- going to try a new way (for me anyway) of stringing my batter boards.  I'll first drive rebar stakes in exactly where the four corners of the foundation will be, squaring those up and using the old trial and error method plus 3-4-5 and diagonal measuring.  Once I have those set, I'll run strings and square those up using a vertical four foot level and/or plumb bob.  Then I'll check for square on the strings with a tape although this is hard to do- holding one end in one hand while I stretch it to another corner to read the tape (yeah, and I'm Stretch Armstrong, too).  Anyway, doing things by yourself makes for inventiveness- how's the old saying going about necessity and someone's mother?  I thought Mother Nature was the reason we could invent anything at all- brains too large to fit our skulls so stuff has to leak out to make room.   :)

No pictures today- sporadic rain and other projects kept me off the knoll.  Did start a bedside table for one of the kids and managed to slice up one pine tree just cut from the knoll before the rain kicked in again in earnest... had to get a sawdust fix before the year ended.

Hey everybody: Happy New Years! 8) 8)  Had my 62nd birthday two days ago and made it through another year in more or less good health, with all the kids healthy and well if not rich and famous.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: AvT on December 31, 2010, 10:47:28 PM
I didn't read every word of this post or your daughters blog but i skimmed a good portion of it and find it all delightful.  I love the orange clay and your daughters writing is phenominal.  precious the way she describes you.  Great stuff
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Buck on January 01, 2011, 10:52:45 AM
Keep it coming LJ. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on January 04, 2011, 08:14:03 AM
Decided to fill in details of the process as we go.  Nothing earth shaking here, just a step-by-step of what it takes to build a house in southern Mississippi.  I would guess most of the steps are pretty similar to what others have found (or will) in building outside the city, but maybe not.  Anyway, my daughter will continue her blog as we go and I'll try to keep this thread up to date.  Turns out that building a house is much more complicated than just putting up a structure: duh!

Details of getting started

Building a house out in the country in Mississippi is not the same as building in the cities here.  In town, we now have good oversight by city government.  This involves getting permits and having inspections at appropriate times.  For example, the last Habitat for Humanity house we worked on required pressure testing of all roughed-in plumbing, including the waste lines.  This involved having 8-10' stacks sticking up from the main waste line that were filled with water and monitored for a few hours for drop in level.  Pressure from this height of water is pretty reasonable, certainly more than the pipes will experience in actual use.  Other components such as electrical have similar inspections.  Are these necessary most of the time?  No, of course not, but unfortunately there are still (and always will be) builders who try to cut corners and who do sub-standard work that doesn't show up for years, not until all of a sudden water spurts from places you didn't even know there were pipes or the sag in the floor turns to major droops and drops and your foundation shifts under you.  Sadly, we need inspections and permits to protect the unwary and uneducated home-buyer from such people, and even more sadly, we always will.

Things have changed, though, even out in the country.  When we built our first carriage house and then our main house, I called the county courthouse to check on what I needed to do for permits and inspections.  "You want our permission to build your house?" came in response to the first request on permits, followed by "You want us to watch you build it?" after I posed the second question on inspections.  No permits 13 years ago and no inspections- great for me but there are lots of houses out here that lots of people are having problems with years after they bought them- problems no one takes responsibility for except the uneducated buyers.  Nowadays, post-Katrina and all the problems with insurance companies covering wind but not flood damage, and even the county we live in requires flood certification before water can be hooked up for construction purposes. 

The sequence of events is listed below- nothing all that difficult or expensive, but tedious and must be done in the right order.  Also, you have to keep your paperwork with you when you go in for some other pre-building task as you never know what this new step will require from previous ones.  In fact, the county has a new planning board with real laws and teeth to enforce them, so things are changing fast: once a government agency figures out that its existence and funding depend on making itself a PITA, it devotes lots of thought and energy to that aspect.  Still and all, things could be worse- still no inspections out here for any home construction other then the septic field.  Guess I have no problem with that as I regularly jog past grandfathered-in trailers and houses near enough to the road that their raw sewage pouring into the drainage ditch creates both a health hazard and some unpleasant atmospheric contamination (if you get my drift or rather, snift...).

So the first thing you have to have here is an address.  You go to the county office for addresses (or whatever it's called this month) and they pull up either a topological map or a satellite view of your building site.  They locate your proposed building as precisely as they can, then guess at how many other buildings might eventually become reality on either side of you and across whatever road you're nearest.  Based on that, they guess as to which number will best describe your location.  Seems like a kinda iffy process but an important one in the long term: sure, your mail will be delivered to the box you put on the road with that address on it, but more important, the location is what shows up on the 911 dispatcher's phone if you call with a real emergency.  They do have to know where to send a volunteer fire truck or ambulance if you need them.  Problem with the volunteer fire department is just that- since they are volunteers (and bless them all, they work hard at doing their best), they have to first get to the closest fire station, get protective gear on, crank up the trucks and water tankers (no hydrants out here), get to the property as fast as they can.... All in all, most houses and barns burn to the ground before then can mount an effective quench-and-contain on the fire.  Definitely not their fault, but just part of why our homeowner's insurance is twice what it is in the city.  Of course, our taxes are (currently) a whole lot less also, but that's changing pretty fast as the county figures out it needs more of our money to pay salaries.  Oh, well, the price of progress....

Now that you have an address, you go to the courthouse where they pull up the same topological map you've already seen once, look at the water flow nearby and relative elevation of the piece of land you plan to build on, and decide whether or not you're in a flood plain.  If you are, give up now and find another place to build: no homeowner's insurance for you or at least, not at a price you can afford.  Now if you're not going to have a mortgage (I don't do those anymore) and you're willing to take your chances and drill your own well for water, you might be able to get by, although it's not clear at this point in time whether you could get electricity piped in or not.

If you're not in a flood zone, you get a piece of paper stating that you're not which you now take to the next office in the sequence you have to visit.  Usually that's the health department which oversees percolation tests for septic fields.  No, there's no public sewer system in the county, unless you count the creeks and streams that outhouses might drain into... which means you will have a septic tank and field.  Now you might live in a county-located subdivision that has a kind-of sewer system that goes into a small treatment or dispersal system that the builder has to install before he can build his first house.  Rules on subdivisions have changed a whole lot lately, mostly for the good: who wants a couple dozen or a couple hundred house's worth of sewage draining into Black Creek or into a drainage ditch along the road?  Probably not a good idea: I was talking to the health department employee who did our perc test and was surprised to find out that, of all the places that mosquitoes that carry West Nile virus like to lay their eggs and grow their larvae, they prefer stagnant water with some raw sewage in it.  So, the lesson is simple: if you don't put in a septic field right, not only will the health department be after you but so will swarms of virus-infected mosquitoes just itching (for real) to infect your family with bad bugs.

Oh, and the perc test is an interesting one.  Used to be, back when I built the first couple of houses out here, that it actually involved testing for water percolation: dig a hole, fill it with water and see how fast it drains away.  This is a good indicator of what will happen to the outflow from your septic tank- all that not-quite-digested gray water that pours out has to have some place to go, and it better not be to the surface for the reasons described involving mosquitoes.  Turns out that there's more involved than just water drainage, as the county health agent pointed out: there's also the presence of ground-dwelling bacteria, or at least the environment that such bugs can grow in, so that they can help with the conversion of your waste water to clean water for those downstream of you.  As the agent told me, there's loam and sandy loam and sandy clay and pure red clay... the list goes on.  It seems that there are places here that just don't have any percolation: he described trying to find some place on a fifty-acre tract of land that the poor landowner wanted to build a house on: took four tries in different plots of the farm before he found a place that just barely paced.  Sometimes, he said, they just don't find a place that will support an in-ground septic field, which leads to high-tech (and you guessed it, expensive) alternatives that have to be used.  Luckily, we passed the test: on to the next office....

Which turned out to be the electric power company.  Since we didn't have any natural gas service to the nearest road, the house we're building will be all electric.  That makes the electric company happy, I guess, although they gave us brochures and folders on how to build more energy efficient homes.  We'd already planned to do that but some of the requirements laid out for their certification levels were pretty expensive: R39 insulation in the roof/ceiling which requires lots of thick batts or thick blown-in fluff or very expensive foam of some kind.  The foam is out of our price range, leaving blown-in or 10" fiberglass.  Decided to talk to the truss guy on this... although I first made my initial deposit on the electrical service to set up a site inspection.  Let's talk about that first, then trusses and framing.

The electric utility people I've dealt with over the years have been extremely helpful and friendly, and why not?  They do run a monopoly so your only alternative to buying from them is putting in solar, which costs more arms and legs than exist among the family members involved in this enterprise.  Accepting the reality of the situation, I met up with the site engineer (I guess you'd call him that) and talked over possibilities: since the house would be all electric, they'd run overhead wires for free up to the last 130' which they'd put underground.  We were about a thousand feet from the road- three poles with wire; ugly and passing through pretty heavy woods where the chance of a falling tree during a storm or one of our beloved hurricanes would mean "lights out" for some undetermined period of time.  Or we could go all-underground at the cost of $4/foot: let's see, for a thousand feet that would be... lots more than we got budgeted.  We choose overhead wires, not liking the choice much at all: 30' clearance on the right-of-way means open space we didn't want and couldn't use for tree-farming plus a fair number of trees coming down before their prime.  Guess I get to turn more of those into lumber and siding then planned.  Oh, well, such are the compromises in building a new house on un-invaded farm land.

Now the interesting part: to have electricity for the actual construction process (helps a lot to run a circ saw or cut-off saw let alone fresh coffee brewing all day...) we have to set up a temporary pole.  This means a pole (which I happened to have- never pass up the chance to acquire some pressure treated poles) plus conduit plus meter base plus cut-off box with fuses plus receptacle plus ground rod and wire.  All told, a hundred bucks or more not counting the pole... and guess what?  We can't use any of it in the actual house when it's ready for trim out.  Oh, bother, as Winnie used to say (I am trying to fix any language problems I've developed over the years since I'll be sharing work time and space with one impressionable pre-teen and lots of younger grandkids).  Ok, bought the components, will put those together today and have the pole ready to go up as soon as the electric company is ready to set poles, which brings us to a major problem: no driveway, no poles.

Seems the power company likes to use trucks to bring in and set their poles- big trucks that take up lots of space and make major impressions on soft ground, such as the "branch" that drains a small part of the farm directly in the path of our future overhead lines.  Solution: put in a culvert ($300), bring in a bulldozer to widen the path and then pack down fill dirt (dozer $450, fill dirt $960) and then the gravel on top to keep the red clay fill from becoming mud that will bog down anything on four or more wheels (two loads, $720).  Oh, and to keep the new dirt from just washing away under the gravel, we had to plant winter rye (hope it catches fast) and overcoat with 12 bales of hay ($150 total).  So now we have a path for the trucks that (hopefully) will not settle too much or slide down the branch with the next heavy rainfall (see pictures above for visuals).

Next up: back to the utility company for a meter base for the pole and to put down deposit for interim electrical service, then to the water company to put down deposit for service so we can lay pipe.  Stay tuned for more details...
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on January 04, 2011, 06:09:10 PM
It always makes me wonder how codes vary so much from place.  I've built both in Texas and West Virginia and it's like night and day.
Here in WV the power company requires that the owner put in the conduit for underground but there is no charge for the wire or hook-up labor. 
The conduit and hardware for my house service cost about $800 and for my shed service about $300.  Pretty reasonable.  Of course I was able to do my own digging or the cost would have been much higher. That's about 40% more than if I had gone above ground.  You still have to buy the service center, pay the inspector, etc., whether you go above or below.  My friend in Ohio was able to do the same thing and he was not even required to put in conduit.  Did you ask the power company if you could do it this way and avoid the $4 a foot?  The conduit costs a lot but no where near $4 a foot.  I sure like not having to deal with overhead wires.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on January 05, 2011, 06:20:43 AM
Underground is vastly superior to having wires overhead but expensive no matter who does the work.  I've done it both ways- paid them to plant it and done the digging, conduit laying and covering myself.  Unless you own a ditchwitch or don't care about having a foot-wide hole to fill that's 3-4' deep, it's a lot more efficient to just let them do it; besides, they do it all the time and are fast and efficient at it.  When I did the big barn on our place, my son and I took on the task- he happened to have a mini-excavator at the time so we had a 12" wide hole 3 1/2-4' deep sitting open till the electric company people could come verify it was deep enough, THEN we could put in the pipe- 4" diameter and PITA to work with on long runs like this (couple hundred feet). Also, you have to leave the pipe uncovered till they inspect again (sometimes they'll do both inspections at once after the pipe is in but pray for no rain- empty conduit floats real nice).  So, you have pipe in the ground and now you wait again till you come up on their priority list to come run the wire and hook up the service.  All in all, took a couple of weeks.  When we were ready to hook up my son's house- about 130' this time from the junction box sitting next to the driveway), I bit the bullet and paid them to do it- all done and lights were on in 6 hours... sometimes time really is money, especially when a daughter-in-law and three young children are waiting to move in...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on January 05, 2011, 07:49:56 AM
It was not nearly that hard for us.  The Elec. Company gave us a list of inspectors. When the boxes were installed and the conduit laid, the inspector came out the day I called him, looked it over,  put a sticker in the box, we back filled.  We had power two days later.  Different companies and states, different rules and results.  It sucks.  Also our conduit had to be 3" not 4".  Big difference in price
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on January 08, 2011, 09:52:33 AM
Update on the driveway: finished the fill dirt, blocked up the side downstream of the usually-dry creek to help hold the bank in place, sprinkled heavily with winter rye seed and covered with straw.  First picture below shows the finished product with a picture after of the sprouting grass- happened perfectly: day after we planted it rained but not hard enough to erode or wash the seeds away so they actually took root very fast, less than a week.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/finished_drive_4.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/winter_rye_2.jpg)

Next comes electricity: setting up a temporary power pole and watching the power line clearance cut...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 09, 2011, 06:20:27 PM
I'm glad to hear you and your family are moving forward. I was concerned about you when the New Years storms rolled through, but I think most of them were north of you.

I hope you make it through the expected ice storm in your area.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 21, 2011, 07:08:36 AM
This thread has been dormant awhile, but not because we were. In fact, just the opposite: too busy to take time to upload pictures and write commentary.  I decided for posterity (my kids and grandkids mainly) that it was time to revitalize and re-post, so here goes....

Update on the utility poles: so we got the driveway built and I put together the utility pole that will provide the temporary service (it comes down when the house is finished and they put in the last couple hundred fit underground).  Pictures below of that useful device: not something I'll use everyday, but given the history of building on the farm (half a dozen structures so far and more to come), I'll keep this one for future use as well.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/pole_closeup.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/pole_top.jpg)

The main excitement was having the power company crew come through and "make a hole" for the lines.  After Katrina, they are now very, very strict with right of way clearance: 15' on each side of the line: OUCH!  That meant a lot of trees we wanted to keep, lots of SYP's, some nice red and white oaks, hickories which we have too many of, and a few beautiful dogwoods that had been volunteered but provided fantastic spots of white flowered emphasis in the spring.  Two problems with having the power crew cut their clearance: they don't care about stumps or trash- just leave it lay or push it to the side and get 'er done.  URGH!

First picture below is of their lead truck plowing it's way onto the farm: the invasion starts!  Second are the "scouts" who are, you guessed it, "scouting" out the path of least resistance and maximum destruction.  Well, not really: they were actually very nice about it and we negotiated the line paths to actually minimize number and type of trees lost.  Still hurt a lot, though, seeing all those decades of growing hacked down in a few hours- picture three doesn't really do it justice so I'll find some more and upload later.  Picture four is after the cutting is done, the poles set and lines strung: I've reconciled myself to the fact that I now have a whole bunch of bucking, forwarding and sawmilling to do with the downed trees.  Fortunately, it was still cold when all this happened which meant the pine beetles weren't out yet and I could get nice clean, yellow lumber from the SYP's cut.... more in the next post on that.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/power_truck.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/workmen_in_the_woods.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/1439/power_line_cutting_2.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/power_line_cutting.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 21, 2011, 07:53:20 AM
Ok, so the powerline went through the land like a tornado (or more appropriate to our recent history, like a hurricane) and left a lot of downed trees and tree trash.  Here are a few pictures of the right of way now free of dangerous trees that might any minute leap through the air and grab the powerline for a quick surge of electrical energy- trees need their addiction fixes too, you know; that's why so many trees land on powerlines- to feel that sudden surge of energy coursing through their veins...

There's also some more pictures of downed trees and trash laying there- strangely, it doesn't look quite as bad in the pictures as it did when we started clean up work.  Guess you had to have been there... or maybe it just looked worse to us since it was our land and our trees. :'( :'(



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/trees_down_3.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/trash_from_logging.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/trees_down_2.jpg)

Amidst the mess left by the power company were a few really nice logs that had to be trimmed and skidded.  I usually try to keep logs as long as possible for skidding even though I use my medium sized farm tractor with FEL and backhoe bucket on it to do the job- not the best choice, but it's what I have and it does the trick as long as I'm careful.  I have developed a good sense of "oops, that's too heavy or I'm pulling  the wrong way" when skidding now, so I don't have nearly as many of those driving on just the front wheels experiences: I always hook to my FEL bucket and back the logs all the way to the mill- as a teacher (professor, actually) I've grown eyes in the back of my head so I can watch the students while I write on the board- helps with grandkids and skidding also but it does mean you have to keep your hair cut short to not block the view. :)

First picture is of a log ready for its last ride- and sorry, but no jolt of electricity for this baby to send it on with pure electrical delights.  Second shows a stack of logs ready to buck, third shows them from a different angle and forth is logs ready to become lumber.  I'll show more of the lumber piles that resulted from all the death and destruction caused by the power company (why do I keep blaming them?  I asked for it, didn't I?) but the last picture shows what the lumber coming off the mill looks like: a mix of live-edge siding and dimension lumber for framing.  I normally would NOT have cut dimension lumber- not worth my time as it's cheaper and kiln dried at the big box stores, but in this case, it was either cut into lumber or burn- waste not want not (something a mother must have said sometime in the dim, distant past- probably Mother Nature).



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/log_to_skid.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/logs_before_bucking.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/logs_to_buck.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/logs_on_deck.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/lumber_plus_siding.jpg)

In line with my last comment, I've always struggled with how to salvage and use the smaller trees that get taken down, either on purpose for thinning or like here, to clear land for some purpose.  I don't usually get enough of these at any one time to make it worth while to try and market them so what do I do with these "toothpicks?"  Well, one answer which may or may not be a good one is to just peel them and let them air dry.  I did this after Katrina, for both big and small logs- cut up a lot of these to side my son's house so that worked out good since I had a pole barn for storage and drying.  In this case, what with clearing the house site footprint and having a bunch of smaller trees from the power line installation, I was whelmed: too many to peel efficiently.  I use a Kaiser blade (or swing blade) to peel fresh cut pine trees- works great and is way faster than anything else I've tried.  Only problem is, it's just like real work, and I certainly sweat like a pig (although oddly, pigs don't) and wear myself out pretty fast doing this.  So anyway, I have a pile of small logs just waiting for me to find time to finish peeling them for storage in the barn so they can dry and become something useful.  Here's a picture of a few I did manage to get peeled though- pretty at first, then the sap oozes out and the sticky stuff picks up dirt and shavings and sawdust and some black, nasty looking mold or fungus.... all in all, not to pretty on the outside (just like me, I guess) but still solid and useful on the inside (don't I wish!).



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/peeled_logs_2.jpg)

Enough fun for now- got to get to work and get something useful done today... :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 22, 2011, 06:48:35 AM
Thought I'd try the automatic uploader to see how that re-sizes pictures.  Haven't been happy with the way my pictures look- too small for my aging eyes.  Anyway, first three are of lumber from a downed white oak- sure hated to see that one go as it was just getting to the size where in a few more decades it would have turned into a really beautiful, straight-trunked tree.  Oh, well, such is progress... :'(   :-\

Last picture is more an illustration of why safety is so important- safety that comes from being aware of what you're doing, paying attention to what the logs are doing, and guarding against malicious intent.  Remember that logs are NOT your friends- they will try to roll the wrong way, twist and turn in unexpected manners and generally do whatever they can to cause you injury.  They do this, of course, to get revenge for being cut down.  You'd feel really, really bad if someone took a chainsaw to parts of your anatomy, especially if such behavior resulted in your untimely demise.  So do trees feel- a fresh cut tree knows it's in its death spiral, sap and life energy seeping from its open wounds, and its last thoughts (from a tree?) are to get back at whoever did this terrible deed. 

Problem with this white oak was, I was not the one that caused its premature termination.  All I was trying to do was salvage body parts, just like we do organ harvesting from the just deceased (ugh!  Not something I care to think about too much- who would want parts from an old, beat up white male anyway?).  So anyway, as I was realigning the white oak log onto my LT40 loader arms, it twists in my hands (yeah, I "forgot" to use a tool) and leaped down onto my foot.  Fortunately for me, nothing was broken, just lots of bruising and soreness that lasted about a week.  Well, lesson learned: think like a log from now on and try to imagine what it would do to cause the most damage to this pesky human that just caused its death, then prevent it from doing that... yeah, right: think like a tree?  My grandson already believes that of me, no reason to reinforce his faulty view of his wise and all-knowing Pop...   :D :D



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3379/white_oak_3.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3379/white_oak_2.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3379/white_oak_1.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3379/IMG_3531.jpg)

More later...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: thecfarm on March 22, 2011, 07:35:40 AM
Are you some relation to magicman?  :D  Ouch!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 22, 2011, 07:41:22 AM
No, but I do admire him greatly- works smart and hard, communicates effectively and often, and as far as I know, he hasn't lost any limbs yet... unlike the trees he converts.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 22, 2011, 08:51:03 AM
Footings...

are a PITA, but necessary.  As they say (whoever "they" happens to be), if your foundation is good, the rest is easy... well, may not actually be true, but no question, square, flat and plumb sure helps.  First, though, you have to dig trenches for your footings.  Oh, and just to back up and explain, we're building a raised slab, which is very much like a slab on grade but with a little bit of the "raised" as in "raised foundation with crawlspace."  No crawlspace here.  Instead, we build up a block wall that will be filled with concrete and rebar when the slab is poured, which rests on fill dirt specially brought in and packed down for it.  I like this kind of foundation because, first of all, it's fairly easy (although not as easy as a pier foundation with beams sitting on the piers), it locks all the rough plumbing underground and away from what freezing temps we do have, and most important, pretty well blocks all access for termites, bugs and small rodents, all of which we have aplenty here in the Deep South... especially termites.  Oh, and the most important reason of all: I can pretty much do a foundation like this by myself, although in this case, I didn't.... whatever.   :)  "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy," someone famous once said; same holds true for building a house.  Success depends on adapting and overcoming, just like fighting a war, although with a house, it's Mother Nature to some extent, your own poor planning and irrationality, and in my case, pure stupidity.  We all do stupid things, just some of us do them so much better...



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/overall_layout_with_batter_boards.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/downhill_to_lowest_point.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/me_thinking_about_work_left_to_do.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/trenches_and_batterboards.jpg)


So the pictures above show rough trenches dug carefully with the backhoe on my tractor, "fixed up" trenches that have been cleaned out using the hand tools shown, and below is one the pine stumps that had to be dug out because they were right in the way of my trenches.  I had cleverly aligned the foundation footprint to miss all the stumps left from clearing just the area where (I thought) the house would set... but No!  Daughter has other ideas: she wants the house turned on its axis to face the meadow and stream better.  I had lined it up so the front porch faced almost due south, allowing both early morning and evening sun.  She was right, though, (and I'll not tell her unless she reads this- don't want her getting a big head) as the view is much better now that it's turned about 20 degrees.

Anyway, digging the trenches is careful work with a tractor, or at least as careful as you (I) can be moving a few tons of metal around already dug trenches in pretty soft dirt that wants to cave in with a good breeze.  Following that is backbreaking handwork to square up and clean out before putting in rebar.... oh, and digging out stumps.  Did I say there were stumps involved?  See pictures below for size and shape.  Couldn't pull them out with either the backhoe or FEL on the tractor- God made pine trees to have a deep, tough taproot to keep them from blowing over in a hurricane, which is why they mostly snap off somewhere in the middle of the best log possible so you get shorter lumber than you want.   >:(  Anyway, used the backhoe to dig all around the stump, break what roots I could, then hand shovel out enough to get one of the chainsaws down in the pit so I can run a good chain on each stump.  Finally get enough of a cut to break it off and pull it out, then backfill enough to allow a form to be built to hold the footing soon to be poured.  More on the pour in the next post- got to go to work now.

Lj



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/grandsons_foot_on_another_stump.jpg)

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on March 22, 2011, 10:49:38 AM
Thanks for doing the extra on the pics. Much better on the eyes.
Enjoying them.

And take care of the foot (both of them...:) )

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 22, 2011, 05:41:08 PM
Thanks, Beenthere- foot's much better now although still hurts if I put weight on it wrong- probably something to live with from now on, along with all the other accumulated aches, pains and mental deficits I've built up over the years.

Picture uploader is fantastic- takes whatever you have (except for one picture I tried that gave the error "File too long for uploader"??) and they come out the right size and much easier to see.  For those of you who haven't yet learned to use it- spend the little bit of time it takes and show us what you've got or done. 8)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 23, 2011, 06:13:13 AM
Live Edge Siding

I thought it might be useful for those who have thought about making this type of siding to see how one person does it.  What I'll describe today is just the conversion of SYP logs into green siding.  Later on as we continue the house building effort we'll get to applying sealer and finish, cutting and installing, and putting on final protective coat.  Timing for this first step is crucial, and falls into the category of "When's the best time to plant a tree?" question; answer: "40 years ago..."  When's the next best time?  Now, of course, so now it is since I didn't have the foresight to get this done last year for two reasons: didn't know I'd be building a house this year, and certainly didn't know which trees would be prematurely terminated by the power company in their quest to sell us electricity.

First step, of course, is the right logs.  Best for me are those around 10" or more in diameter.  We're going to use minimum of 8" boards with 6" reveal, so even with variations of an inch or so, we get nice coverage and an acceptable "view" of the finished house.  Picture below shows a new batch of bucked logs ready to be sacrificed on the alter of sawmilling.  Notice that some of these are considerably bigger than 10" which is alright.  This just means more careful slabbing to remove bark and a board or two that gets trimmed down to 8" or so later in a separate step.  The goal is to end up with a cant that has three clean cut sides and one with bark still on it (picture below).  There are two competing characteristics which depend on log diameter.  If the log is pretty big, then the cant you get will have nice straight live edges with little curve to them.  This kind of cant is easier to cut and gives more uniform boards but they are much more "boring" to look at when finally put on the house.  Much more visually appealing are cants from smaller diameter logs (more curve in the live edge that results) or better yet, cants from the upper portion of the log where lots of branches have been trimmed.  Leaving a little of the "branch stump" on the rough side of the cant makes for really interesting live edges on the boards- lots of things to attract your attention and break up the symmetry of board after board flat and straight.  If you want that symmetrical look, cut all four sides of your cant square and flat, make all your boards exactly the same width and you have a nice lap siding that is uniform- not for me, however.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3385/logs_on_deck.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3385/live_edge_cant.jpg)

Ooops, something wrong with the picture inserter- I'll see what I can figure out or may have to ask Jeff for help.  Got the pictures to my gallery but can't get them in using the two-click method... put them in above using the copy-and-paste method; let's see if that works....

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 23, 2011, 07:45:09 AM
Ok, I'll pick up this topic of making live edge siding again... hope the picture inserter works better but if not, I'll go ahead and use the cut and paste method.

I should back up and give an overview of the process I use:
-First, find "interesting" logs of about 10-12" in diameter; interesting meaning with some branch stubs left on
-Second, buck to length: I vary this to give the siding a more unsymmetrical look, with some logs 8' or so and others up to 20' in length.  Depends in part on how long a piece of siding I'm willing to man-handle and what distances there are between windows, doors or along a wall: if you can stretch a single piece of siding from one corner of the house to the other, this is ideal- no board-to-board edges for thermal expansion and water ingress
-Third, make a three sided cant with one side bark-on, set for even multiples of desired lumber thickness in the flat-to-flat dimension (I use 4/4 scale) and about 8-9" across (this will be the width of your siding)
-Fourth, cut boards to thickness (4/4), scrape off sawdust from both sides, trim off bark so beetles don't infest while it dries
-Stack lumber on FIL, move to drying pile, sticker and cover
-Let air dry for a year or so (won't happen here) or kiln dry; I see no reason to kiln dry lumber for exterior use that is free of bugs (this is all fresh cut, no beetles and kept clean and covered and away from termites)
-Trim each board as you install, seal coat both sides and put up wet
-Finish house, wait a month and apply top-coat to all exposed siding and sealed wood

Ok, now back to steps with pictures.  We've got the cant squared up, and then cut the first board off: it's got sawdust on both sides (bad for fungus growth) plus bark on one edge: picture below shows a typical board slanted off the mill with sawdust being removed by scraping with a piece of busted sawblade (I used to break a lot of blades on my LT30 manual; none so far on my LT40: why?).  Next picture shows bark removal with a kaiser blade: it peels right off, takes about 30 seconds for a board, then load clean board onto FIL (picture in a previous post).



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3385/scraping_sawdust_2.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3385/removing_bark_from_siding.jpg)

Great!  The double-click inserter is working again...
Shown below are a couple of pictures of stickered and stacked siding getting ready to do nothing while it dries some before we put it up.  Ideally, it should be equilibrated to the humidity of the house location, and here in the Deep South, that's about 100% most of the year, most days.  Major concern is ability for wood surface AND edges to soak up sealer just before install.  As long as it's "some dry" the sealer works fine but drier is better.  You may notice some of the boards have more branch stubs left on which makes the siding much more interesting: this is one application of rough sawn lumber where you (or at least I) don't want all board edges straight, and actually provides a use for the upper part of a SYP that has most of the branches on it.  Our pines tend to grow very straight and tall, with most of the trunk self-pruned and free of branches- boring  but makes for great boards and beams.  The upper third or fourth is where the branches are, and it's easy to just leave that part for the burn pile... except when you want (or can sell) live-edge siding: do I smell money here? Oh, well, man does not live by bread alone... although having money to buy bread is sure nice.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3385/live_edge.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3385/siding_stickered_4.jpg)

More about siding later when we start sealing and putting it up.  I realized the other day, though, that I don't have nearly enough siding cut.  Did a rough calculation (best kind for rough cut lumber) and came up needing about 1200-1400 sq ft of siding.  For a 6" reveal, a 12' board cut at 8" (roughly) will cover about 6 sq ft.  So... I need about 200 12' boards or the equivalent.  My stack in the picture is about 12' long and 4' wide.  With space between boards, that's about 3' of board surface wide times 12' long or 36 sq ft per layer: that means about 32-40 layers.  Doing it based on number of boards per layer (5) I come up with 40 layers.  My stack of siding only has about 20 layers in it: URGH!  This means over the next week I have to take down a half dozen trees in addition to the ones that the power company "gave" me. :'( :'(  I hate cutting down my own trees in such small lots, but can't justify buying a whole truck load right now (can't find a logger willing to bring me just one anyway so it's a moot point).  So the point of this part: more work to do, which I guess is pretty much a constant state of affairs till the house is done.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 23, 2011, 10:36:26 PM
footings and foundation walls

Ok, so in between digging trenches and getting weather I could count on to pour footings and get blocks laid, I did the tree-to-lumber conversion.  Now it's back to the trenches and finish the footings.  Most of a day forming up a couple of spots where the ground dipped a little too low and I needed form boards to hold the concrete in plus lay rebar, wire it together and put it on saddles for the pour.  Upstart of all this was a couple of rough nights trying to sleep with a really sore, aching back... and did I say it hurt, too?  I hate drugs (all kinds) but ended up taking aspirin- helped enough to sleep.  Sadly, I lost the pictures of the rebar and the concrete trucks working their way close to the trenches for the pour.  Also had a pain with that- my eldest son was home for a visit from Maryland where he captains our 1939 wooden sail boat for charters of up to 16 people.  Anyway, my other son (the plumber) got tied up and couldn't help till later so it was just the two of us plus a little help from the driver.  Got the first 8 yards in and more or less smooth and at the level of the grade stakes (carefully hammered into the sub-soil to a depth where their tops at right at where the top of the footings should be so that an even number of layers of blocks brings the height up to the right level). I foolishly calculated the amount of concrete I'd need: came up with 14 yards and foolishly told the concrete super that was what I'd need.  Should have said "let us finish the first load and we'll call in amount for the second" which would have given us time to smooth what we'd poured, put in rebar to anchor the block wall and estimate how much more concrete we'd need... so there we were, just finishing up the first pour when in roars the second truck all hot and bothered to dump his load.  Wow, did we scramble then!  Concrete, like time, waits for no man: pour it in your forms or it gets dumped somewhere.  Can't leave it in the truck too long or you have a very expensive specialized piece of equipment that isn't much good for anything anymore.

Well, we did it, although we were a little low in a couple places (only an inch) but NOT high anywhere which block layers absolutely hate- you have to cut every block in the bottom layer when that happens.  Other problem was we had to hurry and shove in our tie bars (rebar spanning from the footing up inside the soon-to-be block wall that when filled with concrete will form a solid structure that will resist motion in any of the three directions that we're normally concerned with).  Since we didn't have time to re-string the batter boards, we missed the inside of the about-to-be-laid block wall in a few sections and made it real difficult in others since the rebar was actually where part of a block should be, meaning more work for the block layer.  Such is life and the joy of being a general contractor doing too much of the grunt work...    :P :o

Sorry to be so slow with the pictures- I know, "we like pictures..."  but had to get all that off my chest first.   First picture below shows pallets of blocks we had delivered and the second, more stacks plus some of the poured footing.  Not shown is the pallet of cement for the mortor.  All told, about $900 for the blocks, $1300 for the concrete and almost $2000 for the rebar, rebar grade stakes, three rolls of remesh for the slab to be, and wire ties, saddles for the rebar to sit on and thick polyethlene to put down below the slab to keep moisture out.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/blocks_to_lay.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/blocks_and_footings.jpg)

Not easily seen in the pictures are the step-downs for the footings.  Because of the grade slope from no blocks at the highest point of the porch slab down to six blocks at the edge of the house, there were lots of step-downs.  These are where you put in a wooden "dam" to hold the concrete in the upper level from continuing to pour down hill into a lower level exactly 8" below the upper one.  The idea is, a layer of blocks laid on the bottom level will have a layer on top that lines up perfectly with the upper level footing... obvious once someone explains it to you.  These steps make forming a lot easier, since almost all of your footing concrete is just below grade and no wooden forms or stakes to hold them in place are needed.  These also save a fair amount of concrete since you don't have to form above grade and back fill with concrete.  

So anyway, we did get the footings pretty near to where they needed to be and a couple days later, the block layer and his crew show up at 7 am (first picture below).  Almost had a major delay: he thought I was ordering the sand for morter and I thought he was... luckily I checked in with him day before the job, and the gravel and sand trucker was able to squeeze in a load first thing in the morning.  He got his equipment unloaded and set up (pics below) while I waited for sand back at the other side of the creek.  Dumped the load where we were making a playground for the grandkids, and then I hauled FIL loads over for them to mix with- worked out great: no extra sand laying around at the worksite (not good for future grass and scaffolding support) and the grandkids got a great new place to play.  

The series of pictures that follow show the first blocks laid at the corners of the deepest (tallest) wall- these are used to set strings for rows in between the corners that are built up in rapid succession.  They built the walls at 90 degrees to this first, tallest wall, then connected the ends at the shallowest part, then finished up with the partial walls that will help frame in the back porch slab.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/block_layers_coming_onsite.jpg)





(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/getting_ready_to_lay_blocks.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/laying_block_7.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/laying_block.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/laying_block_2.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/laying_block_3.jpg)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/moving_morter.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/laying_block_4.jpg)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/foundation_1.jpg)

Six hours after they started, with time in the day still for a late lunch, the foundation walls were up.  Below is one picture showing the finished walls, followed by one of me thinking about the days and days of back-breaking labor I'd missed by having professionals do the job for $840- best money I'd spent yet on the house, though certainly not the last.  Oh, and the last picture shows me and two of my work-horses: my tractor with FEL and backhoe and the old F250 I'm using to haul supplies.  My "good" truck is 4 years newer than this one, a '95 F150 long bed, which my son is driving right now because we can't figure out the problem with getting fuel to his diesel F250 work truck which is also a '95.  One thing about a Ford truck: you have to work hard to kill one, although they can be frustrating and occasionally expensive to keep running... at least ours are paid for.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/foundation_walls.JPG)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/thinking.JPG)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/pops_old_truck.JPG)

Well, the foundation walls are up.  Now to brace them and fill the new "hole" we've made with good red southern clay to support the slab.  Then we'll put down the plastic sheeting, rebar and remesh, and bring in concrete and finishers to pour the slab.  The fun never stops! :D :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: pineywoods on March 24, 2011, 09:59:46 AM
DanG, LJ, you building right in the middle of a pine thicket.  I see all them tall skinny pine saplings and thin..ice storm, look out roof  ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 25, 2011, 08:52:48 AM
Good eyes, Piney, but the trees aren't as close to the house as they look (mostly) and they're pretty small.  Problem is that trees, like grandkids, grow up and get big.  It's such a beautiful location, with the house nestled into the pine grove that we can't bring ourselves to clear it off for safety in the next hurricane (oh, one will come, it's just a matter of time).  We will be thinning the grove, though, to free up canopy for better growth.  The shade is wonderful, though, especially with summer coming on- I'll be framing and roofing and all the other stuff in the heat of the day- temps are hovering in the 80's right now and our hope is that summer waits just a few more weeks.   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: BAR on March 25, 2011, 06:27:57 PM
HI LJ,
How do you find time to do such a great presentation with all the work you are doing?

Real Question:  Do you have any problem with sticker stain on your live edge siding?  Do you use stickers from the logs as you saw....or what?  I assume they go up as sawn, unplaned.
BAR
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 28, 2011, 08:35:29 AM
Thanks for the questions- forgot to put those details in.  On my son's house, I cut Katrina logs that had been "drying" in the pole barn for 4-5 years.  In fact, I cut them, hauled them over by the house, stained them and put them up wet- no stickering at all.  On the house we're building now, I'm cutting green wood (fresh road kill from the Power line) and stickering that to dry as much as possible before we're ready for it.  I'll do the siding last, since once I have house wrap on and a water-tight roof on, and windows and doors installed, the house is well protected from the elements and I can do all the inside work to completion.  We'll see on sticker stain but I don't think it will be a problem- I use dry stickers and cover with tin.  Good news, though- just "discovered" that I have several layers of pine at one inch or 4/4 that have been air drying for years.  I did a lot of emergency cutting after all the trees were down from Katrina.  Problem is, these all have blue stain, and so far, the new stuff is bright yellow.  We're using pigmented stain, so that may not be a real problem in any event.

You never know though- seems like every aspect of every "new" house I build is an experiment.  I learn so much from hands-on experience that I change things as I go based on new information.  Each house seems better built, tighter and more energy efficient than the last, but at my age, it could just be me mis-remembering or seeing things that aren't really there, who knows? :) :)

Was going to order fill dirt today if I can get it.  "Lost" the weekend on a campout with the boy scouts: my eldest grandson is becoming very active in scouts and I'm trying to encourage that as much as possible- broken home and all that.  Anyway, it was "crossover" for the Webelo cub scouts in the troup- neat ceremony that seemed to mean a lot to the younger scouts.  Made the older ones aware again of their responsibility to the new-comers into the troup- a good thing all around.  Good team building all weekend and lots of memories and skill development.  Course, my aging body doesn't appreciate the outdoors like it use to...  >:( and I came home pretty worn out.  Needless to say, slept like a log last night.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: laffs on March 28, 2011, 09:22:31 PM
looks like nic work to me LJ
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 28, 2011, 10:41:23 PM
Good news and bad news: ordered fill dirt for in the morning and we figure five truck loads should do it.  Built a dirt ramp over concrete filled low section only two blocks high so I can get the backhoe tractor in to spread and help pack.  now the bad news: 80% chance of rain tomorrow night.  I really need to get this done so we can pour the slab or I'd wait till I was sure of dry weather.  So, I've heard horror stories of filled foundations like ours filling up like a swimming pool, causing the clay to swell, and you guessed it: BOOM! Walls blown out all over.  Any one have this experience, or better yet, the opposite: rain falls, water goes away somewhere and all is well.  Going to try and get the dirt in, leveled and packed before the rain so I can spread polyethylene down on top, tape the seam and hope for the best.  Thoughts or suggestions?

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: DouginUtah on March 28, 2011, 11:30:24 PM

I guess location and soil type makes a difference, but most places require that fill dirt/sand be flooded to make it settle. And settle it does!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 29, 2011, 08:17:39 AM
Thanks, DouginUtah- in my case, it will be flooded whether I want it or not: new forecast is 80% chance of rain tonight and all day tomorrow, which means it's a 100% most places for the next 36 hours...

I'll get pictures of the wood braces that I installed to hold the blocks in place, although it seems like a bit too little to actually do any good.  Talked to my block layer, though, and he definitely recommended it so maybe it really does help.  Only took a couple hours to gather lumber, drive stakes and screw everything together.  Oh, and by the way, I don't nail form boards, batter boards and such any more- much easier to use an impact driver and square bit screws, although it is a little slower setting them up.  You win during dismantle- things unscrew lots faster than taking apart nailed boards, driving the nails back through and pulling them so you can re-use the lumber.  Overall much faster, cleaner and you recover the wood in much better shape.  I'll get pictures this morning of the braces and the dirt going in- probably also have pictures of our new "swimming pool" after it rains, but we'll hope for the best.  As they say, "Time waits for no man," and this case, for no woman: daughter is getting a mite impatient and we really do have to get the slab poured so we can start the fun part: framing!

Another by the way: daughter has started up her blog again, or "blahg" as she calls it.  Latest entry is pretty good, capturing the new attitude and life-style we're moving slowly toward:

http://measureoncecusstwice.blogspot.com/

More later, have a great morning!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on March 29, 2011, 09:01:46 AM
Will you be putting styrofoam down under the plastic? What about compacting the fill?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on March 29, 2011, 09:42:27 AM
Let me first say that I have absolutely no experience with this kind of construction...but it would scare the heck out of me compacting dirt inside of a freshly laid block frame.  There seems to be very little holding those blocks in column.   And it sures seems like that when your are pushing dirt down, you are also pushing it out.  But what do I know...nothing.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on March 29, 2011, 09:52:13 AM
Looking good, LJ.  You do good work!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: fishpharmer on March 29, 2011, 10:00:54 AM
Looks great.  Lj, could you dig a hole in a low spot and install a float activated sump pump from home depot?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on March 29, 2011, 10:17:52 AM
Quote from: Qweaver on March 29, 2011, 09:42:27 AM
Let me first say that I have absolutely no experience with this kind of construction...but it would scare the heck out of me compacting dirt inside of a freshly laid block frame.  There seems to be very little holding those blocks in column.   And it sures seems like that when your are pushing dirt down, you are also pushing it out.  But what do I know...nothing.

It's done all the time here. I believe it's called a stem wall but not sure. I did the same thing building the ICF house but my bottom course was unfilled styrofoam block, didn't have any trouble. I walked the compactor for 2 days and watered in between. and all night.

Are you going to put pex pipe in the slab for heat?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 29, 2011, 05:47:45 PM
Qweaver: you're absolutely right on pushing out the walls, but it depends on how tall they are.  At the small end- just two blocks high or rather a block and a half with the L-shape for the other half to allow slab concrete to pour right up to and down the columns of the blocks.  Highest wall is 6 blocks high (or 5 1/2) and that's the one to worry about.  I cheated a lot and used double reinforcement to keep it from bowing out or cracking. First, about every third "column" down the stack of blocks, I put in a piece of rebar and then filled with ready-mix concrete.  Some I didn't put the rebar in but just the concrete, mostly these are on the shorter walls although I did fill about half a dozen scattered on the tallest wall and the two that taper to it.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/concrete_in_blocks.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/rebar_plus_concrete_in_blocks.jpg)

I thought this might be enough support to prevent lateral breakout but my block layer suggested otherwise, so I ended up bracing the walls from the outside with boards as seen in the three pictures below.  You can see the rebar sticking up from the concrete filled columns in the walls. 



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/east_wall_braced.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/south_wall_braced.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/rebar_sticking_out_of_block_wall.jpg)

Seems to have worked ok- next entry will show the dirt truck coming in and the progress of spreading, compacting and smoothing seven loads of good 'ol Southern red clay.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 29, 2011, 06:13:49 PM
So, this morning at 8, the truck began hauling in fill dirt.  First picture below shows it "sneaking up" on me- hard to do with that huge diesel engine straining under the load of 16 yards of red clay.  Second picture shows the truck after it "surprised" me, starting to turn around so it can back up to the foundation wall.  I first thought to have him slide in to the shortest wall with the least difference from grade, but that didn't work too well- hard to get in and out with a truck this size.  We dumped the first load there and discussed alternatives- made the decision to cut off the temporary water pipe so he could back straight in and up to a slightly higher part of the shortest wall- much easier and he was much happier, although this resulted eventually in a fair amount of dirt getting down the block columns in that wall.  Bummer: this means hand work digging it out so concrete can fill them during the slab pour.  More about how that works later...



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/truck_coming_in_with_load.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/truck_with_full_load.jpg)

(http://#039;d%20get%20the%20right%20fall%20from%20inside%20the%20house%20down%20into%20the%20slab. %20We%20also%20ran%20the%20pex%20in%20through%20a%201%201/2"%20PVC%20pipe%20both%20to%20protect%20it%20and%20allow%20a%20"reinstall"%20if%20needed%20at%20a%20later%20date-%20hopefully%20never.%20%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttps://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/rough_plumbing.jpg)

These are a few pictures of Jessie and River, my daughter and grandson for whom we're building this house.  They fought to be "king of the hill" on load number four, then River said something sassy so Jessie had to chase him down the mound.  River worked hard, though, at least for about half the job- stomping on dirt near the walls to compact it some and spreading it out as needed, or as you see in the last picture in this set, chasing lizards and being "king of the hill" on a stack of leftover blocks.




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/River_and_Jessie_on_4th_load.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/River_stomping_fill_dirt.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/River_on_blocks.jpg)

In order (I hope) are some of loads 1-7 in various stages of just-delivered, spread out or being spread out by me on the tractor... although the tractor took it in his head to try "balancing" on the foundation wall- looks pretty dangerous but he survived.  Last picture shows end of day, last load in and spread after 8 hours of mostly hard work.  We decided to quit at this point: supposed to rain a bunch tonight so we covered with plastic, put some boards on it and just walked away...  Sometimes when you're really tired and worn out, that's the best option- leave the final leveling for another day, hopefully tomorrow but that will depend on the weather.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/second_load_going_in.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/third_load_2.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/third_load_srpead_out.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/third_load.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/tractor_balanced_on_west_wall.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/seventh_load_in_and_spread.jpg)

Next entry will show everything survived a horrendous thunder storm (maybe and maybe), and the progress on getting everything flat and at the right height, then with plastic down (no styrofoam insulation, although I thought about it- too expensive) and rebar on top, and then remesh on top of that all ready for the slab... I hope.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on March 29, 2011, 06:18:39 PM
Are you going to embed some pipes for waste plumbing?

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 29, 2011, 06:25:30 PM
Forgot that Raider asked about putting pex tubing in the slab itself- we'll probably do that although it might not be worth it.  The house will be well insulated and sealed everywhere to make it as airtight as possible.  No gas here and didn't want to use propane, so this house will be all-electric except for the wood heater in the living room which should supply all the heat needed in the winter.  Still not sure about the pex though- put it down in my son's house but haven't gotten around to hooking it up to a boiler or hot water heater- not enough time and money...

Also forgot tally on the dirt: $735 total for seven loads, 112 cubic yards.  The fill dirt may or may not support the slab.  Oh, it will during the pour, but I don't have time to do what Raider Bill did: 2 days with a compactor.  That is certainly the best way to go, but as it turns out, this slab will be totally supported by remesh over rebar that is tied into rebar set in concrete in the foundation walls which will be filled completely with concrete (at least mostly, can't reach some of the fill dirt that accidentally got into the blocks).  In fact, there are some builders that use this approach for raised foundations down here: after the slab is poured, they run water through the fill dirt to wash it all out, liberating the crawlspace for plumbing and electrical as needed.  I have no plans to do that- let sleeping dogs lie, I say...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 29, 2011, 06:29:34 PM
Sorry, Jim, I was typing while you were- sure, my son and I will hand-dig channels in the fill dirt to set the pipes in for waste going to the septic tank which will be the last major component installed.  The perc test was good so our field won't have to be too large or above ground, but that comes later.  Hopefully, we can get the pipes in tomorrow just before we finish up the rebar/remesh mix.  Glad you reminded me, though: got to talk to the son tonight and tomorrow line up a cement finishing crew to pour the slab.  I've done slabs but I don't have enough help right now to do this one, and mine are great for barns, but not so much for houses. :D  Some things are best left to the professionals, me not being one of those when it comes to construction.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on March 29, 2011, 09:32:38 PM
You say that you are not a professional, but you are a DanG good contractor, carpenter, logger, sawyer, Professor, father, grandfather, etc.  8).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 30, 2011, 11:22:35 AM
WDH: thanks for that, and I guess it points up an important aspect to life- being good at stuff other than your job is sometimes more important than the job (spending time with family, helping others, doing hard productive work.

James: thanks for the suggestion on sump pump, but it poured a bucket here and I didn't have time to set one up anyway.  Let's hope walls don't get pushed out... Back to it later in the week but still have to do rough plumbing (son will do that on Sunday, he says), get the termite guy to spray the dirt, then all the parts for the slab to put in and tie together...  I LOVE this stuff!  :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on March 30, 2011, 03:26:37 PM
Are you going to lay foam down under the slab?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 30, 2011, 04:32:34 PM
Raider, thanks for asking.  Been thinking more about that, and talked to my son as well.  Not sure the trade-off would be worth it.  We're installing a high SER heat pump-air conditioner and will super insulate and seal the place so it should be inherently easy to heat and cool.  Our winters aren't all that cold anywhere- no pipes in my house and we have the same raised slab but with natural rock floor and it doesn't get uncomfortable summer or winter.  Her house will be all electric which makes hot water pretty expensive as opposed to a wood burning stove in the living room that will have a window in it plus can be opened to function as a fireplace.  Final analysis- probably not worth it for her.

Maybe you could summarize your take on putting foam down?  Did you find it worth the expense and trouble?  I'll check the prices tomorrow but even the thin stuff isn't cheap, plus we'd be walking all over it while putting down the rebar and remesh and probably crush it or punch holes through...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on March 30, 2011, 05:11:13 PM
I got mine off Craig s list for $4.00 per 4X8 Sheet it was 2inch stuff. I don't know if it did any good or not really as my slab is the basement floor. I was a bit of a pain. If I was further up north than Tenn and the slab was going to be my living space floor I'd do it again.
Maybe someone else will jump in with better answers.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on March 30, 2011, 07:27:34 PM
QuoteMaybe you could summarize your take on putting foam down?

For me, the foam would keep the floor at a temp close to the room, without the differential between the room air and the soil beneath the slab floor.
The differential may be slim to none in your warmer southern climate, but it wouldn't take much to cause sweating of the floor given the right conditions. IMO ;)

But if you put it down, I'd be sure the plastic on top is continuous so when pouring the  concrete cannot slide under the plastic or the foam. Makes a real mess then, as my good friend learned the hard way, and I was helping.

Fence-like rebar over the plastic and/or foam helps that a lot.

Some concrete contractors dislike the plastic because it takes longer to get on the floor to finish it. My last builder put plastic down and then a 1" layer of sand on the plastic. That helped with the finishing time, apparently soaking up some of the extra water in the concrete.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on March 31, 2011, 08:58:19 AM
For us, the plastic is a must- keeps the concrete floor drier and controls humidity better, but I've pretty much decided that the foam is not worth the effort.  Won't be doing PEX tubing in the slab either- running out of time and way short on money right now... isn't that the story of my life? :D :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on March 31, 2011, 09:42:44 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on March 31, 2011, 08:58:19 AM
For us, the plastic is a must- keeps the concrete floor drier and controls humidity better, but I've pretty much decided that the foam is not worth the effort.  Won't be doing PEX tubing in the slab either- running out of time and way short on money right now... isn't that the story of my life? :D :D

Lj

ah certainly know this feeling....... ;) ;D  I had great plans building mine but like ol Forest Gump said "things" happen. Between by wallet springing a leak and all the money running out, my lack of building skills coming to light some planned things just didn't happen.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 03, 2011, 06:32:24 AM
Plumbing rough-in and termite treatment

Quick update on the plumbing rough-in, then off to church and back to the worksite...

Saturday the weather was perfect: clear, dry (for us anyway) and sunny.  Got up to 80 or so which meant a little sweat but great fun with the grandkids who "helped" some on the dirt-filled foundation.  Spent $200 on PVC of various sizes, brought home the 20' pipes (2 and 4") resting on the passenger side mirror and tied to the bed- there's planning for you; luckily it didn't come loose and go flying down the road in front of the cars backed up behind us.  My daughter had a new entry in her blog on "Driving Lessons:" http://measureoncecusstwice.blogspot.com/ in which I taught her the very important lesson of how to drive like a farmer.  I've followed enough farmers to know, but rarely practice this fine art myself- too much of a hurry usually.  The key is this: take your time, enjoy the ride, look at all the other farms and fields carefully as you pass, and don't worry about the steadily increasing parade behind you...

Anyway, got the supplies to the site and my plumber son, Josh, didn't go finish a major commercial remodel he's working on- knee giving him fits again.  He wasn't so "stove up" though that he couldn't work on the new house, so we did.  Had to shift out a little excess dirt from the fill in first: turns out my "measuring eye" needs recalibration: what I thought was a few shovels full turned out to be about ten FEL buckets of extra dirt that had to be removed to get down to the level for the next steps.  Took an hour or so, which gave Josh time to play with his kids while I drove the tractor back into the foundation and scrapped, dug and redeposited the dirt outside.  Finally got to the real work of the day: under-slab piping.  This is really important to get right if you don't want to bust up concrete later because you measured wrong.  It's also important so that the "excrement flows downhill," as the saying goes.   :o :)  If you don't have the right amount of "fall" in the waste pipes, then it doesn't, which means it backs up and your house fills up with it- not a pleasant development.  And here's the real problem: no way to test it till the house is all built, everything is installed including floors, walls and finish plumbing, and it's way, way too late to fix.  Sometimes my son tries to hurry this- PITA job doing rough in, and the only reward is getting it done so you can move on.  Luckily, our on-site supervisor kept us in line: a blue-bellied lizard my oldest grandson caught next to the foundation.  Have no idea how he got to Mississippi- he looked this particular species up and it's range is said to be restricted to California so he must be a retro-immigrant, finally coming to his senses after experiencing life on the left coast and returning to the roots of the nation- the Deep South.   ;D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/onsite_lizard.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/blue_belly_on_lizard.jpg)

Well, darn it all: the auto-inserter isn't working again; wonder why this time?  Oh, well, back to manual cut-and-paste of image info into the post...

Once we had the dirt level and our supervisor on-site and cracking the whip, things moved pretty fast.  Hand-dug the trenches for the pipe, measuring carefully for position for the washer drain, the AC and hot water heater drain, the kitchen sink drain and the pipe coming down from the upstairs bathroom, all tied into the 4" main that exits under the master bath toilet which we had set "in concrete" during the footing pour.  That pipe goes under the block work to be at the right depth leaving the foundation, so I'd put that in after digging the footings, and poured concrete around it.  Also ran the PEX water line through a PVC pipe under the footing and into the block wall of the house.  That will go up into attic space (such as it is) above the back porch to be split and dropped into the the hot water heater, the kitchen sink, up to the 2nd floor bath and down to the washer hook up and master bath toilet, bath tub and lavatory.... but that all comes after the frame is up.  Pictures below show my son Josh in the ditch working (or about to or having just done some), me trying to help (I always look real serious when mistakes can be costly- son just shrugs it off which is good) and the two of us discussing something. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/josh_in_the_ditch.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/me_helping.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/josh_and_I.jpg)

Last picture shows some of the tools needed for this job- shovels, of course, and a dirt tamper; not shown: level to check "fall" in the pipe, a skill saw (circ saw) to cut the pipe, tape measures, pipe glue (keeps the excrement from leaking out...) and the plans to double and triple check measurements (dang lizard is a perfectionist).  In the distance you can see the old F250 that has now become the farm truck (see my daughter's post in her blog for details).  She'll be gradually assuming responsibility for helping turn the farm into a more profitable enterprise (daughter, not the truck): we've already planted a half dozen fruit trees in the last week, two kiwi vines, a new grapevine in the vineyard (such as it is) and a bunch of herbs and vegetables.  More plans in the works and more on that later. 

The old truck was just sitting behind the barn: we'd blown the engine (or it came that way, whichever) so I'd had a rebuilt one installed, but hadn't really gotten the truck road-worthy.  Bit the bullet (which always means spending more money around here) and had new tires and shocks put on.  While the tire shop was doing that, they discovered that the front brake pads were almost gone and a major leak had developed at the rear axle: ouch!  That old truck better last a really long time now- way too much money "invested" in it!  My daughter and grandson were considering names for the beast (we always name our equipment in the hopes it will feel more like family and go the extra mile- never seems to work though), when the grandson came up with "Lazarus," an appropriate name and one that's easy to remember (some of us need that).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3399/rough_in_tools.jpg)

Have to stop at Lowe's on the way home from church and pick up a couple fittings we "forgot" we needed, then back in the ditch to finish up pipes and cover up for the next step- termite treatment... stay tuned. :o

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 03, 2011, 08:40:17 PM
Day 2 of the plumbing rough in

Not sure if I mentioned it yet, but the rough-in is one of three stages for plumbing; numbers two and three are stack-out and trim-out.  The hardest to get right is the rough in. "Why?" you might ask?  Well, I didn't know this till I worked with Josh on a couple last year- you have to get the measurements right for pipes that you just bury in the dirt, and by right, I mean within an inch or less of where it's supposed to be, otherwise your toilet is in a wall or your waste line is in the middle of the bedroom instead of in the wall of the bathroom- pretty serious problems that can only be fixed with a jackhammer and lots of sweat and tears (no blood- we bleed without need of a jackhammer).  To get your figures correct, you have to first make all those changes to the plans that were agreed upon (or not but you do them anyway).  First picture below shows me re-figuring window placement in the kitchen so we could move the sink over three feet for a better view and to allow the conduit for the electrical service to enter a narrow attic space instead of the middle of the kitchen.  We needed to have the waste for the sink connect to a vent that goes straight up through the roof so water will flow down the drain (well, duh!): suction is a powerful thing and can stop flow easily without such a vent.  So knowing where the window is (exactly) means we don't put the vent pipe in the wall to go up through the window- would look a little odd, don't you think?

We also moved the bath from one outside wall (east wall of the master bath) to the north wall.  For some reason, the plans had an outside door in the middle of the master bath... why?  Daughter wanted a storage room under the roof there anyway, so we took out the door, moved the bath but left the window on the east wall (wouldn't be much of a view into the storage room...).  Also, because we're having trusses custom made for the roof (strength for when all those pine trees come crashing down in the next hurricane), we lost most of the attic space big enough for HVAC unit and hot water heater, which meant they had to be located somewhere in the house.  To do that, we replaced a storage closet (bummer, never enough space for storage) with the HVAC closet, put the hot water heater next to it and eliminated a half bath.  For a two person house (daughter and grandson), didn't make sense to have two and a half bathrooms: one down and one up is enough.  This freed up space next to and in the master bath for closet space, so we got that back.  Summary: find exactly where the floor drain with p-trap for the HVAC and hot water heater overflow has to be; locate the relocated bath drain and put in a rough-in box, and position  the drain for the washer that we moved from the east wall of the very small washer-and-dryer room to the north wall.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/Serious_blueprint_work.jpg)

Ok, now we know where we're supposed to put all the pipes in the dirt and walls, the challenge is to do it, which means more hand digging and pipe cut-and-paste.  First picture below is Josh working on one connection to the 4" trunk line that connects to the outlet under the master bath toilet.  Next is an almost completed section, and last that same section from a different perspective but now finished.  All in all, another 3 hours (six man hours) to get 'er done.  Went back later in the afternoon to cover up all the pipes and work on getting the dirt pad level and below grade needed for slab... more later.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/Josh_cutting_trench.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/main_trunk_in.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/all_finished.jpg)

We worked kinda slow today, enjoying the breeze cooling us off in the 80 degree sun and watching the kids play around the work site.  We could get away with this because our supervisor (the blue belly dragon) now resides in my grandson's new terrarium to be part of his reptile merit badge project- lucky lizard gets three square meals provided to him- well fed crickets- oh, and that's three meals per week or so... Well, we finally got this thread turned to food, what say you?  Rather eat the lizard or the crickets, or maybe a delicate concoction of the two?

Lj 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 03, 2011, 09:16:19 PM
Sunday break time

We had worn ourselves out on the plumbing rough in (I know, it didn't take all that much to wear us out) but we had gotten all the pipes in the ditches where they were supposed to be... well, almost all.  At the last minute, as we were picking up tools, scrap pipe and spare fittings, Josh said, "Oops, forgot to put in the clean out..." which is a big deal if your waste pipe gets plugged up with cat fur you flushed down the toilet, or a big grease ball from the kitchen sink, or whatever (it happens) and you need easy access for a "snake" to try to unplug it, and if that fails, a water jet to blast it out (and that costs a lot more but works every time).  So, Josh takes his tools and the fittings over to the wall by the kitchen, twists off the glued vent pipe and 90 degree bend, and busts a whole in the form block with his hammer.  Then he re-assembles but with a T-connection for the vent pipe rather than a 90 degree, and puts the clean-out cap on the outside (set way out and not glued on yet because we haven't decided yet what finish will go on the outside of the blocks- bricks, stone or a coat of paint to save money).  I forgot to get a picture...

Speaking of snakes: some of you may be aware that pet pythons have been released in the Florida everglades over the years, mostly by kindly (but really stupid) families who think they're doing someone a favor by not finding their pet snakes (who have gotten to big and expensive to feed) another home, either above or below the dirt.  Well, it turns out, these pythons are reproducing like crazy and have now moved into Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi.  How do I know?  Well, here's my story and I'm sticking to it: son Josh took his sons fishing in the pond, and surprise! it wasn't quite as out-of-balance fish-wise as we thought.  Warm weather has the bass out feeding and growing again: the boys caught a half-dozen or so half-pounders, then Josh landed one at about a pound and a half.  He called us to come see, so Nana and I mosey on down to take a look-see.  Yup, that's a fish alright (first picture below).  My HDAD-ADD kicked in right about then, when I noticed the canoe had some rain water in it.  I pick it up from one side, then tilt it over so the water can run out.  I take a step under/over to help lift when my bare foot comes in contact with what my subconscious screams is a "Snake!"  I jump back in real fear: last week a water moccasin was relocated from the world of the living to the nether world down by the creek (Josh is a good shot with a hand-gun), and my hind brain was sure this was another one: wrong!  It was one of those giant pythons, roamed all the way up here and just dying for a meal, with me number one on the menu.  Next picture below shows this hummer about to launch itself at me with the intent of winding it's enormous length around and around my body so it can squeeze the life out of me.  Notice the demonic blue eyes, cold as ice and filled with malice!  My life flashed before my eyes, and then my son noticed and said, "Hey, boys, look at the black runner!"  Our encounter then evolved into a nature lesson on good snakes versus bad ones: the boys got to see up close its tongue flickering in and out, it's coiled body but narrow head and all-black body signifying a friendly member of our local wildlife population.  Josh nudged it so the boys could see how fast it can move- gone in 60 seconds; no wait, that was a really dumb movie; this snake was gone in about 2 seconds, so there!  Well, maybe we can get this "new best friend reptile" to serve as job supervisor for the rest of the slab prep coming this week: dozens of rebar to tie in place, cover with re-mesh and get everything ready for the slab pour: yippee!

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/Josh_n_the_fish_again.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/Snake_too.jpg)

Oh, and this last picture shows that I actually did recover from a strange encounter of the fourth kind: me playing with or holding some of the local grandkids, who do some crazy, silly things, or maybe just lay there growing like a weed while being still... Life is good. :) :)

Lj

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/Pop_n_babies_too.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 04, 2011, 08:25:31 PM
That snake must be getting ready to shed.  Glad you spared it. 

Wow, you are making great progress.  Your daughter is lucky to have such an enterprising Dad  ;D.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 04, 2011, 08:47:50 PM
WDH: how can you tell it was about to molt?  The only odd thing I noticed were the eyes- a shade of steel blue maybe?

Progress: got almost all the extra dirt out of the foundation, and now it rained like thunder and lightening (plus hurrcane warning and watch in sequence) so I hope nothing got washed out...  Plan is (was) for tomorrow to finish the dirt inside to grade for the slab, form up the porch slab with a 1" fall over 8' and 3" below the main house slab to keep water out.  Also, the termite guy came and looked at the set up, gave us a really good price for treatment and annual contract (which guarantees replacement if the house gets eaten and falls down) so he's on hold for later this week/early next.  The fun never stops! ;D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 04, 2011, 08:57:01 PM
When they get close to shedding their skin, they get a film-like coating over their eyes.  That is what your boa constrictor looked like to me.  Otherwise, the eyes should have been clear with a defined iris.

You have lizards and snakes, maybe you will not find any termites  :D.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 04, 2011, 09:09:08 PM
Actually, I don't have to find the termites, they find me.   >:(  Lay an untreated board on the ground for a couple of days, pick it up and it's already marked with termite trails... another couple of days and their inside.  Worse right now though are the carpenter bees- picked up a piece of lumber I had leaning against the foundation to use to hold down the polyethylene over the red clay as it rains (going gung ho right now, in fact), and one of those bees bit me and flew off- had just started hollowing out her nest, about half an inch in when I "irritated" her.  Found a homemade carpenter bee trap design on the internet- anyone out there tried making there own?  Got to make some quick and get them away from my barns and lumber stacks...  Don't know which is worse, termites eating the wood, or carpenter bees hollowing it out for a nesting place- and I do mean hollow: cut one board from a torn-out rafter, and the nest was measured in feet up inside, greatly weakening the board.  Life is good, but bees like that are bad!  >:( >:(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 06, 2011, 08:26:42 AM
Update on rough in plumbing and slab prep

I am continuously amazed at what strange and wonderful creations we humans are.  There are parts of us we don't even understand and certainly don't know how they work.  I'm speaking specifically now of the subconscious- that part of the brain we have no conscious control over but that is always chugging away, mulling over our actions and thoughts, and trying to keep us from doing something stupid.  Of course, we mostly ignore it and do stupid stuff anyway, or forget to do the stuff we're supposed to- whatever.

So two nights ago, I'm two hours into a sound sleep when my subconscious finally breaks through to my conscious and wakes me up with a start- happens all the time and I've learned to pay attention because it's usually something important.  I'm laying there, waiting patiently for the message to get through when wham@! it hits me: anchor bolts.  I remembered then reading on the forum about the new pressure treatments and their effects on steel- much faster corrosion and the only solution long term is either stainless steel (best but pricey) and hot dipped galvanized.  Two days later I've traded in my already rust-covered plain steel for galvanized bolts.

Then last night, bad sleep all night but I foolishly ignore whatever my subconscious is trying to tell me.  This morning, I'm on my third cup of coffee trying to make up for not very good sleep when wham@!  it hits me: no drain for the master bath lavatory.  Son and I both missed it in our desire to finish up last Sunday and go play with the kids.  Luckily, the termite spray for under the slab is not till tomorrow afternoon, so I have to scramble to today, finish up the fill dirt leveling and forming up the back porch, dig a trench, bust a block and tie in a drain for the lavatory, then form up the slab for the front porch.  No problem- I've got two or three hours before and after work...  just get 'er done so we can pour slab next Tuesday: weather prediction is perfect.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on April 06, 2011, 09:12:53 AM
All I can say is "check list".......
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 06, 2011, 03:35:44 PM
I hear you, Jim.  Only two problems with a checklist: first, you have to make it.  Second, you have to remember to check it... I lose out on both counts, although I do make lists regularly, there just not the detailed kind that would help... Off to fix our mistake and get the last of the excess dirt out so the bug man can do his termite treatment tomorrow- fairly involved: injections of potent pesticide all around the inside of the foundation footing, including four feet down at the deep end.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: submarinesailor on April 06, 2011, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: ljmathias on April 06, 2011, 03:35:44 PM
termite treatment tomorrow- fairly involved: injections of potent pesticide all around the inside of the foundation footing, including four feet down at the deep end.

Lj

LJ,

I don't know about the state of Mississippi, but here in Virginia about the only thing they can use is the same thing used in Flea and Tick collars.  And according to Orkin, it is only good for about 5-12 years.  Don't ask me how I know all this.  About $3,000 to $8,000 in termite damage - again.  This is the 3rd time they have gotta into one of my homes.  Sure do miss the GOOD OLD STUFF.

Bruce
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 06, 2011, 09:20:17 PM
I'm not sure what's legal here either, but we'll find out tomorrow at 4 pm... and frankly, doesn't really matter to me as long as the company stays in business and honors their warranty.

Finished up "flattening" the fill dirt inside the foundation. In fact, first picture below shows about one-third of the "extra dirt" that was inside the stem walls.  I will have to get my volume measuring eye calibrated again (or maybe wear my glasses more often when I'm working outside, although then I break them).  Oh, well, what's a little hard work... for three days... leaving me with rubbery arms so weak I can barely type.   :-[   :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/extra_dirt.jpg)

Next picture shows the "added" drain pipe for the lavatory: good thing my brain made me aware we'd forgotten to put this in on Sunday because it's a REAL PITA breaking up concrete with a jackhammer to do it after the slab is poured, although I guess we could always have just cut a hole in the side of the house and let it drain out onto the ground... not! :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/lave_drain_addition.jpg)

Last picture shows the finally and really finished view of all the pipes roughed in and ready for the pour on Tuesday... oh, did I mention we're scheduled for Tuesday now? 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3382/full_view_of_rough_plumbing.jpg)

Termite injection on Thursday, all weekend to put in plastic, rebar, remesh and finalize forms, and we should be good to go.  Got my favorite cement finisher lined up and I've contacted two different ready-mix companies to check availability for then, plus the weather is supposed to be perfect... which means it will probably pour cats and goldfish, or whatever.  Keep your fingers crossed and I'll add pictures as we go.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 09, 2011, 07:51:48 AM
Saturday update

Well, I was tied up working when the bug-man came so my daughter got to supervise that aspect, and I forgot to have her ask about what treatment chemicals were used... oh, well, I'll try to remember to call and find out.  Made progress after that and before and after work on Friday- this is the kind of back-breaking progress that you love "having done" more than "doing," if that makes sense.  While I like doing both, it's especially satisfying when the two come together and you enjoy doing it as much as getting it done.  Which leads me to something I was thinking about yesterday, about why I take such great pleasure in building structures, especially houses: each component of the project is a well-defined, specific task requiring a unique set of skills and often a unique set of tools.  Oh, sure, the skills carry over from one segment to the next- things like measuring accurately and being able to visualize the final product through all the rough digging, dirt and mud.  There's also that continued process of re-thinking each step as you're doing it to make sure you're about to do the right things in the right order.  Of course, there's also those "ah, ha!" moments when your subconscious lets you know you forgot something important.  The more exciting of such "light bulb!" flashes (watch "Despicable Me" with your kids or grandkids to find out about that one) are the ones where you suddenly realize how you can do it more efficiently, more easily or more cost effectively (cheaper:   :) ).  I usually get those just after I did it the hard way or the wrong way, but there's always next time, if I can just remember it for then... and memory is always the second thing to go.   ???

Back to the basics of the process: we've come to the part of foundation building which is not quite as back breaking in some aspects and leads to rapid rewards of the kind "Whew!  Now that's done."  Seems like it's been a long time getting footings dug and poured, getting block stem walls erected, filling with red clay to bring it up to level, all with a really great storm in the midst that raised the possibility of "block blow-out," a disaster of monumental proportion if it happens.  Fortunately, it's not happened to me (yet) and this time I took the block layers advice and braced the walls while filling the inside.  Then there's the painful (and really back-breaking) job of leveling: as far as I know, this can only be done the old fashioned way, with pick and shovel and lots of arm-power.  My son told me about using a "grade string," so I didn't have to resort to the board-and-level method I'd used last time.  One of the big hurdles in this process is bringing the fill down (or up, as the case may be) to exactly level or a little below the bottom of the L-block bottom layer.  You want to have at least 4" of concrete plus reinforcement in your slab, but with the ever-increasing price of ready-mix, you don't want to use any more then necessary.  This is easy right next to the stem wall, but harder as you move away: the eye (at least mine) is notoriously unreliable for gauging "flatness" when digging and shoveling tons (literally) of dirt.  The answer is to use a brick and block layers favorite tool: a piece of string.  I had a couple of the string holders for this (with a notch in them to hold the string and slightly-slanted notch to hook over a block or brick; picture below).  Bricklayers use these to keep their rows straight and level.  In a grading operation like this, you dig a flat spot all the way across as best you can, stretch the string from one lower edge of the L-block to the other and you have a perfectly flat guide to follow.  This was such an obvious and easy fix to measuring all the time the way I used to do it: lay a 2X4 down with a level on top.  Another nice thing about it is cost: almost none.  And last, it's very easy and quick to re-position for the next area to be brought to level.  The result of all this, about 7-8 hours of really hard, tedious work, was a flat surface that will contain just the right amount of concrete (picture below).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/string_blocks.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/flattened_fill_dirt.jpg)

You can also see on the left side of the picture the area formed up for the back porch, which will be a slab with footings all around to support the posts that will support the roof that extends all the way over both front and back porches.  I really like doing porches this way for two reasons: they make great living space for our lifestyle here on the farm, plus it's fast and easy to build the structures integrated rather than adding porches after.  We had put rebar into the footing sticking up for tie-in to reinforcement that will be in the slab, so I had to bend these over to put them within the top of the soon-to-be-slab: they'd look awful funny sticking out of it and I'd have to cut them off anyway.  Next picture below is after the termite treatment: doesn't look any different even up close, but let's hope the $400 for the treatment and $150 for annual inspection and re-treatment as needed is worth it.  The company is a national one with a full-replacement guarantee, so if termites do get in somehow... well, let's not go there.   ::)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/after_termite_treatment.jpg)

Next picture shows the plastic down and cut to size- without someone else to help hold it tight on the other side, it's hard to cut to fit exactly so I ended up with some gaps here and there... but it's close enough I'm not concerned: the goal is to reduce moisture migration up through the concrete slab and further discourage termites from trying to get in.  Wish it would work as a water barrier- rain predicted for Monday and we don't pour till Tuesday, so if it does, the water has to go some place and that could be a problem- block blow out.  I did have braces all around to help prevent this but had to take them down to dig and form the footings and slab for the front porch.  This will actually be a slab under the porch itself which will be at about 4-5' above grade.  On my house, we just left this dirt, and the water dripping through the decking gradually washed the dirt away and made for problems under the deck on the house, problems such as rotting support boards and exposed footings- you can ask how I know this but I won't tell you as that's the other project I'm working on right now... >:(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/plastic_down.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/footings_for_front_porch.jpg)

So the second picture above shows the footings I dug yesterday just before dark- somewhat challenging on the low side of the house what with slope and trees all around, but got it done.  First thing this morning: smooth the trenches, put in rebar and form up the outer "walls" for the pour.  We'll do this as a slab-on-grade where the concrete and rebar/remesh flow from the slab itself down into the footing.  This is also called a monolithic slab, as it's all one piece.  I'm over-doing on the reinforcement, in case you hadn't noticed.  In fact, the cement finisher I lined up was surprised when he asked "Rebar, remesh or fiber?" so he'd know how many crew members to bring.  Most people use one of the three, some use two together, me?  I'm using all three.  I figure you only get to do the foundation once (just the thought of having to do it over sends chills up and down) so why not do it so it'll last?  Rebar is to prevent major separations of the slab when the inevitable cracks form (my understanding anyway)
while remesh helps hold things together on a more local scale.  "Fiber" is really just glass fiber, same stuff used to make boats and some car bodies: it's to stop the cracks from even starting (I'm told) and if it works, this would solve all the problems associated with concrete cracking.  Problem is, it doesn't stop all of them, hence the other two types of reinforcement.  Oh, well, it cost more now but should save a lot of heartache and problems over the decades and centuries to come (not that I plan to live that long... but who knows with modern medicine?)  So first step: get the rebar in place and tied to rebar that is placed down the columns in the stem walls.  (Last picture below although hard to see).  If you remember, I went ahead and put these in before I put the fill dirt (clay) inside, and filled those columns with bags of pre-mix I mixed up in the bucket of my FEL.  The idea was to help hold the walls from blowing out; well, now I'm counting on them to do that again as I form up the lower slab below the front porch.  Pray for no rain!  Oh, and I did manage to get the rabar in the main portion of the upper slab, cut and tied in place.  Kind of a pain to bend the rebar over that I'd pre-cemented into the stem walls: it has to bend over so it's below the top of the soon-to-be-slab, and better yet, in the bottom third of the slab for maximum benefit.  Can't see any way to make this easier right now- can't pre-bend it when I put it in as that would make using the tractor inside the stem walls impossible and might cost an eye or two...  :D  Oh, well, there's always next time to figure it out.  Off to finish the lower footing prep, get rebar in everywhere and start the remesh install- PITA for real!

Lj

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/fist_set_of_rebar_in.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 09, 2011, 09:57:05 PM
Saturday update April 9

Busy day, but one of those days where you feel like the kid you used to brag about being... you know the one, "I walked to school everyday, uphill both ways."  Usually there's snow and rain and wolves involved also.  Can't say any of those apply, but mosquitoes, now that's another question: they've come roaring into our little neck of the woods like hordes of invading... well, something really hungry.  Went out this morning and little swarms of them hovered and attacked all the way up the hill to the knoll where the new house is going in.  Just to prove a point, the two pictures below show first uphill to the house we live in (Nana and Pop), and uphill again to the knoll: told you, uphill both ways, and with mosquitoes to boot!

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/uphill_to_the_house.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/uphill_to_the_knoll.jpg)

So to carry the analogy to its logical end: worked like crazy all day and felt like climbing uphill the whole time.  Dang, but shovels are hard work, but then so is putting in rebar for footings, laying plastic, putting in more rebar in the back porch slab area, putting in remesh there as well, and then starting on the remesh in the front porch form.  Lasted till 5:30 and my arms wouldn't work anymore, so I called it a day and walked back home (you got it: uphill!   ;D)

Last picture in my last post showed the roughed-in trenches for the footings for the front porch.  First picture below is after about 4 hours of forming up, carving off excess dirt and generally making it flat and clean (sort of anyway, after all, it is mostly dirt).   8)  Next picture shows the plastic down (under a porch?) plus rebar in for the footings and the first three pieces of remesh at the far end.  Got 6 more pieces to cut and lay down, then wire tie it all together so it's ready for the pour. 8) 8) 8)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/front_porch_slab_rebar.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/front_porch_with_some_remesh.jpg)

Now back to the back porch: got the rebar in (what I had left- only enough for four rows across the slab, none perpendicular, and no time to run get more.  Well, remesh will have to carry the load in the middle, and after all, it's a porch, right?  Daughter showed up and helped with the remesh for the back porch: wow, it goes a lot easier with two people to manhandle (girl handle?) a 36' long piece of sharp and unwieldy wire mesh that gets caught on every stake and corner on the way to it's final resting place.  Daughter is tied up most days packing and moving stuff into the carriage house so she can get her house on the market and hopefully sold: we could sure use the equity to help finish the house!  First picture below shows the back porch formed up, plastic in, rebar on top, and remesh on top of that, all tied up nice and pretty with wire ties!  So the back porch is ready, the front porch almost ready, and the main slab waiting for help to haul in and place nine or ten pieces of remesh 26' long... as I said before, the fun never stops!

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/back_porch_ready_to_pour.jpg)

Still a 40% chance of rain on Monday: let's hope it misses us so we don't lose all that bug spray soaked into the fill dirt in the slab areas.  I'd sure hate to have to postpone a couple days and get it sprayed again...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: fishpharmer on April 09, 2011, 10:25:56 PM
LJ, I'm just trying to catch up on your thread.  Nice fish, nice snake.  Mostly, what a nice Dad and granddad you are.

Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 10, 2011, 07:29:16 PM
Thanks, James- some things you work hard at and some things are just plain fun...

Last week or so we've had unseasonably dry weather, at least somewhat below 90% humidity, but I went out this morning at about 7 and by 8 I was soaking wet.  Yesterday, changed clothes twice and ended up taking three showers by bedtime.  It occurred to me that we have the opposite situation weather-wise that exists up north.  Used to live in Michigan while I was in grad school and they used to speak of the seasons as being spring, summer, fall, locking in, winter, unlocking and repeat.  We actually have it a little simpler: fall, winter (such as it is), spring, and "sweat."  Summer doesn't really have any meaning other than how it affects your ability to do stuff- and sweat the way we have it here is pretty inhibiting.  Oh, well, actually did get some work done after church, which was a special occasion: our newest grand-daughter, Lucy Rosalie (my mother's name was Rosalie) at 2 months was christened which means they have to keep her now, no sending her back.   :)

On the new house prep work, got all but one 8' section of remesh for the front porch slab, and four of seven 24' sections for the main house slab.  Three more of the long ones in the morning plus the last 8' section and we'll be ready for ready-mix... if the rain holds off or isn't too heavy, that is.  Just have to wait and see what tomorrow brings, like always.  :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 11, 2011, 10:31:33 AM
Monday: done

Got started at daylight and Jessie (my daughter) joined me shortly after.  First picture below is her hiding behind a bush- game she used to play when she was just a youngster oh, those many years ago- if I can't see you, then you can't see me, so hide and seek was just covering up your eyes.  Be nice if some of our problems today would disappear if we just covered up our eyes.   :-\

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/jessie_hiding_behind_a_branch.jpg)

Here are pictures of Jessie and I fastening the wire ties that holds all the rebar and remesh in place.  You can tell what the worst part of this job is: bending over all the time- duh!  By the end of the day, back muscles are so sore that just sitting down or taking a shower becomes a chore almost not worth doing.   :-\

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/Jessie_the_Builder.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/Pop_and_Jess_tyin_down_the_rebar.jpg)

And here's a close up the actual process using a fantastic little invention, the hand twister she's holding, that makes the whole process tolerable if not great fun.  Second picture shows a close up of a finished wire tie, for what it's worth.  Last picture is added just for fun: our latest granddaughter, Lucy, at 2 months and already smiling at how well the new house construction is going... or maybe just smiling for the fun of it cause Jessie is smiling and cooing at her?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/Jessie_demonstrates_technique.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/finished_twist.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/Smilin_at_Aunt_Jessie.jpg)

And here's Jessie showing off our work, doing the old "Vanna White" routine... gotta love her.  :)  You can see that the slab-to-be is now as ready as it will every get to becoming a slab-in-fact: all the rebar and remesh are down, wire tied together and supported by small pieces of broken up cement block.  Ideally, the rebar should be in the bottom third of the slab but not touching (surrounded by concrete if possible) with the remesh somewhere about in the middle, although in an imperfect world, with bent and twisted wires, that will be plus or minus the thickness of the slab. :D  We do our best, but that's not always good enough so we live with the results anyway.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/Jessie_Vanna.jpg)

Another couple of pictures of the ready-to-be-poured slab area with all the rebar and remesh in place.  Sure was great having Jessie help, as it took less then half the time I was spending for each 26' section to unroll, flatten as well as we could, lift into place, and tie it down to the remesh already there and the rebar below.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/remesh_done.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/remesh_finished.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3424/rain_protection.jpg)

The good news is that every thing's ready for tomorrow's pour.  I'll call the cement finisher and ready mix company and confirm getting started first thing in the morning.  Of course, that's the eternal optimist in me assuming the 85% chance of rain now predicted for later today will actually not happen.... but then the eternal pessimist in me spoke up, "what if?  What if it pours buckets full, what then?" so in response, we put down a plastic 'rain coat' over some of the preped area, not that it will do much good (last picture above).  If the wind doesn't blow it off or away from the edges, then we still have the problem of the water has to go somewhere.  Got a small hole in the wall near the north-west corner, so maybe all the water will just flow there and exit the main slab.  The one I'm really worried out, though is the front porch slab- deep trenches for footings for the monolithic slab mean "bathtub!" for rainwater.  And if they fill up, dirt walls will collapse, making mud in the bottom that will most likely cover the rebar in there for the footings.  Now the hard question: do we pour anyway, if this happens, hoping the concrete will somehow seep under the mud and cover the rebar to make a good, solid footing, or do we take the rebar out, shovel out the mud, and start over?  Good question there; sadly, I don't have an answer now, and won't till after we see how bad the damage is.  Which could mean I call the finisher and ready-mix company and get a delay for a day or so...

Great walk back from the work site, uphill of course, but what a beautiful day, in any event, full of soft winds and lofty promise.   :)

Lj



Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 11, 2011, 08:01:44 PM
LJ,

Good luck with the monsoons and the tempests  ;D.  Looking really good!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 11, 2011, 10:25:19 PM
Great news: the storms seemed to have missed us!  Now I won't be able to sleep in anticipation of getting the slabs all poured and the first third of this new house wrapped up... and then on to framing, the really fun part.  I think working with wood is the ultimate enjoyment anyway, and using wood in a house, making it into a structure that people will live in for years and years, is just about the best there is.  Anyway, on to morning... :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 13, 2011, 08:13:18 AM
There are two types of blessings we get from God.  One is when He says you need to be tested some more so here and we have to face difficult situations... and that comes under the category of "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger," I guess.  The other kind is when you wake up in the morning and check outside to see what the weather did, and the stars are scattered across the sky in white-on-black beauty with little evidence of rain on the ground and your plans can move ahead on schedule despite your worst fears.  

Seems the thunderstorms that went from 30% likely a week ago to 100% for part of the night last night ended up splitting into two bands that skirted us right by us here in Purvis: what a fantastic occurrence!  So this morning, I worked on 'work' some, ate my favorite oatmeal breakfast and three cups of coffee, and was on the knoll before light.  Tried to take a picture of the formed up slab but it was too dark even with the flash.  I started taking off all the 4 mil polyethylene we'd used to cover the main slab and protect it from rain- didn't need it as it turned out, but that's the way of insurance: you're betting you'll need it and the insurance company is betting you won't, but if you need it and don't have it. ouch!

I hired a concrete finisher and his crew to do the heavy lifting on this part.  Several reasons involved: I don't have all the tools needed, especially the 'whirly gig;'  I don't have all the skills needed, although I've poured slabs for barns and the sawmill shed, they haven't been poured with precision; I couldn't line up enough people with enough skills to do the job for free; I didn't have the time to wait anymore.  That doesn't mean I was totally useless all day.  For starters, while waiting for the finishers to arrive (boss called at 7 for directions, got lost anyway...), I had a couple things to do: pull off all the plastic rain protection, get the boards and dirt out of the way (missed a pile that I had to move with the FEL later), and get the water hooked up.  Seems when we originally put the water in, there was just a little fall out of the meter box into the ditch, such that when I was packing the dirt back in with the tractor, I 'accidentally' cracked the PVC at the junction.  Didn't show up right away, but about a week later I get a call from the water company that they were reading the meter and happened to notice water just gushing out of the box- pretty observant and thankfully, pretty timely!  Water running full blast for anytime is wasteful and our little mistake cost us $140 for the month.  Son helped out night before the pour: we dug out the ditch, re-connected and let the PVC glue dry.  Tuesday morning, the other end of the water line had to be fixed: when we put it in, we set the upright hose bib away from the house footprint so as not to interfere.  Bad idea, as we put it right where the dirt truck had to drive to dump a bunch of loads of dirt into the foundation.  I ended up cutting the pipe off below grade, putting a rock over it and covering it up while we finished work on the foundation prep.  But hey, I realized the day before the pour, "You need water to rinse off tools!" So while it was still dark, dug up a trench from where the main will connect to PEX going into the house back to where I'd cut off the main line, cut the pipe (which I damaged with the back-hoe so had to cut off an extra couple of feet), laid in new pipe, glued it up, and back filled to have a place for the concrete trucks to back up to the slab.

Back to the main story: crew finally got there around 7:30 and the first truck full of ready-mix got lost on the way- one of the problems of building out in the woods is that you're, well, out in the woods and hard to find.  First few pictures below are of the first truck finally sneaking up on us, the crew starting the pour and the first really wet concrete slipping down the stem wall block columns and beginning to fill the form blocks.  Finally!  It was almost anti-climatic, working and waiting for weeks to finally see the actual process start.  It was wonderful, I have to admit.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/first_truck_coming.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/beginning_of_the_main_slab.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/first_truck_load_in.jpg)

Didn't take long and that first truck was empty, washed out and on it's way.  Second truck pulled in a few minutes later with the third truck right behind- way to fast for my taste but these guys were ready and quickly finished filling up the main slab and moving onto the front porch: series of pictures below...  The third and fourth pictures show the process of "screeing off" which means taking a long, flat and strong board (I use a 2X4, they use an aluminum '2X4' which works a lot better and costs a whole lot more).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/second_truck.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/second_load_pouring.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/second_load_in_place.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/second_load_screed.jpg)

Picture below shows final pour for the front porch slab: this will provide support for the columns for the deck and all the way up to the roof trusses, and will give a clean, smooth and dry storage area, 4' high but 8 feet wide and 36' long.  We'll use treated plywood for the deck so it's rain proof and finish off the outside like the house with rough sawn siding.  On thinking about it, I should wire it with lights so it's more usable...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/front_porch_slab.jpg)

Now the main slab and front porch are poured and one or two of the crew will work on those while the back porch is poured... Two pictures below show that just starting and just about finished.  Took a fourth truck load to get to this point and the finisher had it pegged pretty close when he estimated how much we'd need to fill the last of the front and back porch forms, but we had about a yard left in the truck: dump it or use it?  I hate to waste anything, so we worked like crazy for ten minutes, everybody helping out including the boss and the truck driver, to form up a landing for the front porch steps coming down to grade: 6X8 form of 2X4's with dirt packed around to keep the concrete in, and we had just a little left after that... so I still hate to waste, and had him put the rest around the culvert ends of the driveway we'd built way back when we started- seems like months ago, and guess what?  It WAS months ago! :D


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/third_load_ready_to_pour.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/finishing_up_back_porch.jpg)

What's beautiful to watch and so hard to emulate is the skill and coordination of a crew like this that knows what they're doing and how to do it.  While part of the crew was putting ready-mix in place, another crew member would be smoothing or setting anchor bolts or doing any of the hand-full of steps involved at just the right time in terms of cement hardening: start too early, and it doesn't "take" but start too late and it doesn't happen.

First picture below shows the main slab poured, looking rough around the edges (cause it was) and waiting patiently for some of the crew to 'float it' and do initial troweling.  "Floating" uses a tool called a bull float and I just realized I don't have a picture o this unique piece of vital equipment: it's a flat piece of board or metal attached to a really long handle.  You push back and forth across the surface, raising and lowering the handle to keep the leading edge up so it doesn't dig into the wet concrete.  This back and forth action smooths and flattens the surface in preparation for final finishing which occurs in several steps.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/third_load_in.jpg)

The second-to-last step involves the "whirly gig," which only the boss operates, either because of his years of experience or so he doesn't have to do all the tool clean up, or both probably.  :D  It's good to be the boss!  I call this thing the whirly gig although it looks like a big box fan laid down without it's safety cover.  The blades spin slowly, powered by a gas engine, to pull up cement and spread it over the surface.  Don't forget there is lots of sand and rock in this mixture, but on the surface you want mostly just the cement, which is the strong 'glue' that holds it all together.  You push the aggregate down (rocks and sand) and pull the wet cement up using this device.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/the_boss_and_the_whirly_gig.jpg)
Last is the final troweling, down on hands and knees and bending over, sweeping back and forth, back and forth, from one end of the slab to the other.  This is usually done by just one person while the others work on different parts of the slab or at different steps:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/final_finish_main_slab.jpg)

Oh, and somewhere near the end, but before the concrete sets up too much, one of the crew sets anchor bolts which hold the house down to the slab in case of high winds or earthquakes (can anyone say 'hurricane?'). These are placed about every 4' or so, and within a one foot of corners and door openings, and hopefully not where a stud or post will fall, although you don't really know where those will be right now so no sense measuring for them.  However, you DO have to set them precisely for the front and back porch posts: 6X6 treated posts that will hold up a major part of the roof and second floor truss weight.  I use metal supports on the bottom that are held down by the anchor bolts (so those have to be put within a half inch or so of where the center of the posts will be).  These supports hold the posts up so water can't wick under and rot the wood.  They also hold the post down with nails or screws driven into the bottom of the post.  We put posts at 6' centers on the back porch, and 4' 11" centers on the front.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/anchor_bolts_going_in.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/anchor_bolts_2.jpg)

Final pictures are 'what it's all about:' getting a concrete foundation that is square, flat and smooth.  First picture is a side view of the main house slab showing just that- it really pays to have an expert do this since this IS the foundation and the base for all flooring material: "If the foundation is true, everything else is easy to get square, plumb and flat."  Last few pictures show completely finished slabs, with main slab as smooth as possible and front and back porches having 'brushed' surfaces for traction that are made with, you guessed it, a brush!  In this case, they use a big push broom, carefully pushing back and forth, kinda like they did with the bull float, to just score the surface but not raise up mounds of cement.  Oh, and that's me in the second to last and last pictures, acting like I actually did something, but in any case, extremely happy that things turned out so well.  The last picture shows hand prints of the future occupants and owners: daughter and grandson, who came and went during the process as they worked on other stuff to get ready for the framing, finishing and move in steps to come later.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/flat_and_smooth.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/front_porch_slab_finished.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/me_acting_like_I_worked.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3435/Jessie_and_River__prints.jpg)

What an adventure building a house is!  Sometimes things don't work out like you planned, sometimes they seem to work out even better.  In this case, the weather cooperated perfectly, the temperature and humidity were excellent, the crew and concrete arrived on time, and everything went perfectly, including getting an "extra" landing for the front porch steps- truly a blessing!  And to top it all off, James (fishpharmer) stopped by just after we finished up the pour and the crew had left.  I'd planned on working till three or four but everything went so well, we finished by 1:30, so I had time.... James and I spent an hour or so looking at the slab, the ponds, talking about his Lucas and my Woodmizer, looking at lumber I'd cut and stickered and at pictures on his phone of some of his recent adventures in sawmilling, and of course, fish and farming fish... but I'll let him tell you about that.  Had supper, went to boy scouts with the oldest grandson and collapsed in bed a totally happy human.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on April 13, 2011, 08:43:54 AM
Nice narration and pictures!  It's just great that everything went so well. 
I've never been around for this kind of slab pour.  Does the concrete fill the block cavities?  It seems like it must at least partially fill them and that the concrete must be mixed pretty wet to get it to flow into the blocks.  Filling the blocks would consume a lot of concrete.
The last concrete that I poured was $100 a yard last summer in WV.  How many yards did you use?
Quinton
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 13, 2011, 10:26:01 AM
Thanks for the comments and questions.  Yes, the concrete fills the wall cavities- that's what makes this such a strong and durable foundation.  And yes, they water it down some so it flows better, but even then, I noticed some air trapped inside: I was placing one of the anchor bolts and it almost slid in when the "bubble burst," just like a dot.com... Sorry about that, but couldn't help it. :o

Cost: $80/yd and we used 32 yards total.  I over-dug the footings on the front porch slab and probably was way too conservative in the main slab in making sure we had at least a full 5" of concrete... but then again, you only get one chance to pour your foundation- no cheap or easy way to fix it if you don't do it right. >:( ;)

Went out this morning to "water the slab," and it looks great.  Discovered something after last load yesterday that I regret now- I'd ordered "fiber" to be added to the concrete and the dispatcher forgot, so instead of triple reinforcement, we only have double with the rebar and remesh.  Let's hope it holds.  :) :)

Got a few "lessons learned" I'll post later- amazing thing is that no matter how many times you do something like this, you always learn something new or realize there's a better way.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 13, 2011, 08:43:20 PM
I like to see the work signed by the artist!  Very impressive to say the least.  Your daughter has to be very happy. 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 17, 2011, 07:31:15 AM
Ok, took a couple days off to actually do some "real" work, the kind you get paid for, but it's weekend so back at it.  Amazing how fast you get anxious to start the next phase once you finish one- I think of building a house (or most any building) as a three-phase process (not the same as three-phase electricity which I wish I could get but can't- way too expensive).  First is the foundation and slab (if there is one)- takes roughly one-third of the overall effort even though most people think of it as a trivial part of getting started.  I spend as much time on this as anything else for the simple reason that if I screw up the foundation, I have to work a whole lot harder to make the house square and plumb... plus the house might shift, settle and crack...   :'(

Pulled out some of the SYP I'd cut roughly into 2X4 and 2X6 dimensions.  Been airdrying a month or two, and I was pleasantly surprised at the weight and color- still looked nice and yellow- no blue stain- and it was down to a reasonable density, although a few of the boards were like heart-pine: dense and hard and that marbled with that rich, deep brown that indicates lots of sap dried to resin.  Could have been a pine that was struck by lightning maybe?  Anyway, while some of the boards had bowed or twisted some, most were in pretty good shape, so checked dimensions: most were within a sixteenth or so (I'd cut them oversized by about that much or a little more to allow for shrinkage) but a few were still oversize.  This gave me a chance to make some sawdust, although not much- stacked them on the mill and trimmed them flat, at least on one side.  I figure a flat interior wall is the key in this house-- outside will be covered in OSB and then live-edge siding so small imperfections there won't matter.

I had sawed a mix of "a little long to allow for trimming of studs" to "whatever the log would give" in length- paid off as I needed top plates that were as long and straight as possible.  Took a load of roughly 8-9' 2X6 boards over to the worksite, set up the chopsaw with a block set at exactly 92 5/8" and trimmed a bunch to length for studs- slow but hey, the wood was free, kind of.  Forgot I needed PT for the sill plate, make a run to Lowe's with the grandson, and then laid out the first wall- most complicated one with multiple windows, a door, three intersecting walls into the interior, and three pipes sticking up for plumbing.  Took my time to think it through and get it right, then cut to length, drilled holes for anchor bolts, notched or hole-sawed for plumbing, and marked out stud and intersection locations.  Was thinking about it over coffee this morning and realized something I hadn't taken into account: I'll need to leave one section of this wall open to allow tractor or forklift in to raise the single bent that will hold up the loft and trussess.  May re-think this: why not use a hoist or pulley tied to one of the many trees nearby to lift the bent?  Or I could just ask a dozen or so friends to come do a hand-raising...

Problem is going to center around timing: get most of the rest of the walls up so I can tie the bent in and finish up stairs (which will also attach), flooring for loft and trusses.  I'll need about two weeks lead time (says the truss maker) but don't want to have a pile of trusses sitting around, getting wet and mildewy while I get the frame ready for them... challenges again!  Having only made a few bents before, and a sawhorse, I'm not able to estimate how long it will take for me to cut, fit together, raise and lock in place the two-story bent.  Well, first things first: get accurate measurements on heights for the loft beam and top beam, pull logs from my Katrina stash of air-dried SYP, cut the 8X8 lumber out and sized to length, then start cutting braces, and all the joints I'll need.  Won't be using TF for the loft floor joists or roof joists so that makes things a lot easier- maybe a week all told?  Another plunge into the unknown- what keeps life interesting.

Ok, here's a question for you all: I'm building this house to last a hundred years or more, in an areas without earthquakes but with periodic hurricanes and tornadoes.  I'll use hurricane ties at the stud-to-sill and stud-to-top plate connections, and glue-and-hurriquake nail the OSB siding on, but I'm toying with screwing my frame together rather than using a nail gun.  This would be a whole lot slower, but would the greater holding power of the screws be worth the effort, or is this way overkill?  Any opinions out there?  I've got the time to do it this way (although daughter and grandson are getting anxious) but not sure it's worth it...

Forgot to take pictures yesterday but I'll get some today after dinner-on-the-grounds at church, followed by our Easter egg hunt- they won't let us "older" children participate anymore; said we hogged all the eggs, darn it!  Oh, well, guess we'll have to content ourselves with watching and taking pictures...   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 17, 2011, 10:20:14 PM
Sunday evening, April 17

What a great day! Combined church service (great sermon and music), dinner on the grounds which meant we all had to sample too many dishes and ate too much, then the easter egg hunt which didn't actually involve hiding anything for the little ones- 2-5: just scatter the candy-filled-plastic eggs in the tall grass of the back field and let 'em go at it!  Of course, with the sun out, all the chocolate candy was melted... and don't ask how I know this.  ;D

Got home finally after a stop at Lowe's to pick up the PT 2X4's I forgot yesterday.  Seems I can't get any of the PT trees to grow on my land, darn it!  Where do they grow those things anyway?  Oh, and to finish up the slab section, we all walked over to it the day after and rejoiced... as you can see by the pictures below- two of the younger grandkids just dancing for joy, and the oldest happy as could be with his future house.  Wouldn't it be great if we adults could throw off our inhibitions and do the Snoopy dance for joy when something comes out right?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/dancing_on_the_slab1.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/dancing_on_the_slab3.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/dancing_on_the_slab5.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/River_inspecting_the_slab2.jpg)

And now the last picture of the slab before starting the framing process: this was the same day as above but shows the wet surface of the slabs after I "watered them."  Water a slab, you might ask?  I thought you wanted them to dry, no?  Well, actually, no: it really surprised a few years ago (don't ask) when I learned that concrete doesn't dry out to harden, but hardens because of a chemical reaction between the cement in the concrete mix and water.  The water actual makes the cement into rock again, but it takes time, and the less water present, the longer the time.  If you wet the surface everyday, or even twice a day, the water is absorbed and speeds up the reaction.  You have all heard that you shouldn't work on concrete right away, you have to give it time to cure enough to get hard enough... well, general advice is meant to be adapted, so in my case, I was out the day after it was poured to unscrew all the form boards and braces, and break everything free.  Did I mention that I have stopped nailing form boards and stakes now, and only use screws?  Sure it's slower assembling them but taking them apart is a breeze, and you get back your boards AND your screws.  In fact, I used most of these today in making walls...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/freshly_watered.jpg)

Ok, so I did some trimming of air-dried pine I'd cut a month or so ago, then carried the boards over to the worksite, trimmed them down to 92 5/8" on the chop saw with a stop that I carefully adjusted to just the right position and screwed to the saw table made out of 2X stuff that the chop saw was also screwed down to- works great, fast and easy way to make the same cut over and over.  Only problem was weight: the pine isn't completely dry yet, which means it will probably shrink more in the walls- oh, well, we'll just have to live with that.  It also means that these boards are HEAVY!  Just flipping them end-for-end to trim first one end, then the other cut to length was a workout.  So, managed to cut enough to start assembly process.  First thing (top picture below) is lay out.  Cut the PT sil plate and first top plate to exactly the same length, then position the sill plate exactly as it will line up next to the anchor bolts.  Mark position of the bolts, and any pipes you might need to cut around, then measure from the edge, and make an X where each bolt hole will be, then drill with a 5/8" spade bit.  If you stop before going all the way through, flip the board and finish from the other side- clean holes and no tear out.  Cut out pipe holes or notches, then try it for fit; if it's good, pull it out, lay it next to the top plate and start marking.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/sil_plate_with_holes.jpg)

I always try to lay out my windows, doors and side-wall connections first.  I measure carefully from the corner I picked to start with, kinda like the reference edge in working a timber: even if you're off on the slab by a little, all the changes will occur in the walls farthest from the one you start at.  This means you want to choose based on any roughed-in plumbing that is already set in stone: you can't move it now, so work with it instead.  The corner I picked was where the master bathroom is: the bathtub drain, the lavatory and the toilet waste drain are all locked in now: if you measured right when you were getting ready for the pour, everything should work out fine.  I forgot (don't I always?) two things: the added storage area on the back porch which removes a window and would have moved the toilet over a few inches so the window wouldn't be so close to the wall of the storage room; plus the vent pipe position.  Since I had planned on moving the window, I told the plumber (my son) to position his vent pipe exactly where the window is on the plans- dumb three times!  Here's the problem: the toilet position is set in concrete; can't be moved.  The partial room where the toilet is has two walls, one full and one partial on each side, so since the toilet can't be moved, neither can these walls.  To move the window, I'd have to move the walls... duh!  Which means I can't move the walls or the window.  Talked to son today: we'll jog the vent pipe over into the stud wall next to the window and up through the roof; not an elegant solution but since all that will be moving in the vent pipe is vent (air), bends and twists don't matter; just a pain to stack it out after the frame is up.

The slab is 36' wide at the wall I started with, and because of the several pipes in the wall, it was easier to break the wall into sections that ended/began at these pipes.  Most only affect the sill plate, not the top plate, so we don't loose much strength, and don't forget, these are 6" walls so we'll have lots of extra support.  First section of wall, closest to the master bath corner, is shown in stages below.  First are the two plates with markings for studs (on 16" centers making sure to measure from the outside of the wall that the end of the plates will coincide with: this puts a stud (or rather half a stud) where a 48" piece of siding will fall, allowing the adjacent sheets to be fixed to the same stud.  Second picture shows more of these markings.  By the way, you mark them bottom of sill plate up and top of top plate up.  You do this so you can see the markings from the outside of the frame as you position and then nail in the studs and units- clear?  This means these two boards will flip up and away from each other, then moved out to allow studs in between to start the assembly process.  I always leave the sill plate laying as marked and flip up the top plate to start fixing studs to- easier to read than scrambling over it to see the markings on what will be the bottom of the sill plate.  You could do it the other way just as well, first fixing your studs to the sill and then flipping up the top plate and nailing.  First board on one end you square up carefully using your speed square (or triangle, if you follow the Jim Rogers convention).  You also use this tool to mark your anchor bolt positions, pipe positions and stud positions across the two boards: with 2X4 stock, a normal square goes across both, but with 2X6 stock, it doesn't quite make it, which is why I bought an oversize square years ago when I built our house.  Had it on the site two days ago and now it's vanished- raccoons ate it I guess, or I buried it while moving dirt around?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/plates_markde_for_nailing.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/sil_and_top_plate_notched.jpg)

The next picture below shows a connection box for the end of this wall section to be tied into from the end of the 90 degree east wall going south (did I mention I was working on the north wall first?).  I use a C-shaped box, with the flat part between the two studs facing the adjacent wall which will also have a stud facing back to be joined together in holy matrimony to live happily ever after... wait, got my ceremonies mixed up.  This shape gives extra strength to the connection in both directions.  There's been lots of discussion in various "green building" sites and magazines on how to use one less stud to make the connections- saves some lumber for a whole house, but did I mention we live in hurricane country?  Saving lumber is not nearly as important as resistance to racking and sway.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/wall_to_wall_connection_box.jpg)

Which brings me to my quandry: do I nail as I've always done, using an air gun that makes building walls and framing super fast, or do I use the much stronger binding screws?  Both are galvanized or coated so rust isn't a problem, but pull out strength is: screws don't, ever, even when you want them to because the head is stripped and you can't get it to unscrew.  Nails are softer, can be "shifted" a little one way or the other with a few blows of a hammer to get studs and walls to line up properly during raising, but did I mention they pull out easier?  One of the reasons to "glue and screw" sheathing on (OSB on the wall frames and roof rafters) is to stop the initial pull out that gradually leads to nails coming out and things going south... wait, I already live in the south!  The glue plus screws (rather than nails) I've read increases the lateral strength of walls by a factor of 4: popular mechanics did some tests on this approach years ago, but I can't remember when or which issue.  Just think, though: it's 4 times harder to get a glued and screwed house to start falling down.  Of course, once you break the glue bonds, it falls down just like a nailed house except it doesn't: screws resist pull out much better, so the boards don't separate as fast or as easily even after the glue breaks.  Well, I'm thinking, if screws work so good in OSB sheathing, why not in framing?  Wouldn't they offer the same increase in strength, the same resistance to initial and ultimate failure? 

My guess is yes, so now the question comes down to time and money (just like always): is it worth the extra time, like a dozen times slower screwing each fastener in rather than "popping" it in with an air gun?  And screws cost a lot more than nails, although I haven't calculated out the actual difference.  Even if there isn't any different in cost, time is money, or at least it's always "time" which means it will take a whole lot longer to get the house done.... but having said that, one hurricane in my daughter's lifetime that DOESN'T blow the house down would make it worth all the trouble?  So which is it?

Ok, I chose to compromise: I'm assembling the frame first with one nail from the airgun in the middle of each stud.  With a 2X6, recommended number of nails for tying studs to plates is 3; 2 for 2X4's.  With three, I figure the middle one doesn't experience racking forces (like the middle of a beam doesn't help much in carrying load which is why you put your mortise there rather than on top).  I then go back and put a screw top and bottom using an impact driver- fast, but certainly not as fast as a nail gun.  I'd appreciate any comments or references to technical articles on this subject... I'm hoping NOT to be around for the next one-a-century hurricane like Camille and Katrina; hold that, maybe I would like to after all, and why not?  Storms are fun if you're in a wind-proof house, no?

Sorry for the ramble- it's late and I need to get sleep.  Last pictures are of two exterior wall sections for the north wall and one connecting wall 40" long that will separate the bathtub from the toilet, although why you need to do this is beyond me- it's in the plans and daughter says, "Keep it."

Lj

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/1st_wall_section_done.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/2nd_section_minus_header.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/bath_end_wall.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 18, 2011, 07:26:23 AM
Your lumber looks good!  Apparently your County does not require that framing lumber be grade stamped.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on April 18, 2011, 09:18:30 AM
Lj:
A tip about pictures. When you have a picture/photo uploaded from your camera to your computer, review them there first. While in Windows Picture and fax viewer, rotate the picture using their rotate controls to make up to the top. Then when you close that viewer the picture will remain up. Then upload them to your gallery and when you post them the up side should be up.
If you're not using Windows Picture and Fax Viewer, then rotate them in your photo software, before uploading to your gallery.
Also, a space between photo insertion tags in your post helps. It makes the photos separate from each other and less confusing.
Thanks for all your great posts on this subject.
Jim Rogers
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 18, 2011, 04:13:45 PM
Thanks, Jim- I think I figured most of this on the fly, and the more recent pics conform, don't they?  I'll make sure I do them this way...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: jamesamd on April 19, 2011, 09:22:14 PM
Looking great LJ  8)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 20, 2011, 07:37:57 AM
Thanks, James and Jim: appreciate the feedback and help.

No, WDH, my county is just now entering the effort of oversight and regulation of individual home construction.  In the city, of course, they follow the international codes, but out here, it's been slow coming, thankfully.  Well, I say thankfully, but it comes down to the problem of free markets and capitalism: if we let the business owners (small contractors in Mississippi) work without rules and oversight, they build shoddy houses which stick their new owners with high energy bills, continued fixes and upkeep and not-very-pleasant homes to live in.  The cost for this are the new regulations that are being implemented, which hurts the rest of us (vast majority) who do build according to code.  Like any law, it is a result of and aimed at the few law-breakers who would probably ignore it anyway and still build crappy stuff till they got caught.  Oh, well, not my call;  I just focus on today's needs and keep plugging away...  like having to pay Uncle Sam a huge tax bill this year: ouch!

Made great progress yesterday on lay out of framing and getting lumber in place- I'll update later today after I retrieve my camera which I foolishly left laying on the slab yesterday evening.  Had planned to go back and finish up a few things but what with grandkids to play with and boy scouts to go to with the eldest grandson, ran out of time... again.  Seems to happen more and more these days: running out of time and money.  >:( :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: submarinesailor on April 20, 2011, 08:17:00 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on April 20, 2011, 07:37:57 AM
like having to pay Uncle Sam a huge tax bill this year: ouch!

running out of time and money.  >:( :D

Lj

Lj,

I truely know the feeling........no time, no money and too large of tax payments.

Bruce
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 20, 2011, 08:23:45 PM
Better to run out of money that out of time, in the ultimate sense :).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 20, 2011, 10:08:35 PM
WDH: right about that for sure- at least I'd rather pay taxes than not be ever needing to again...  :(

Another lesson learned: 2X6 walls are darned heavy, especially when made with lumber that's only partially dry (air drying but not long enough).  Also, not to do heavy lifting of awkward stuff alone, unless you think it through real carefully.  Tried hooking the first section of exterior wall to the FEL using a couple of screws and straps- didn't take into account the breaking strength of the screws: strong but brittle, and they just snap off when they've had enough.  Nails will at least go gracefully, bending before the give up the ghost.  Oh, well, here's the story: started to pick up the poorly supported wall section when the screw snapped and the whole section fell onto my favorite impact driver: picture below.  Lesson learned: don't leave valuable tools where heavy stuff can fall on them!  :-\ :'(
Oh, and the section somehow fell wrong (is there a right way to fall? if you're made mostly of wood?), and cracked both the sill plate and the top plate- second picture.  Finally, carefully, got the wall up and partially bolted down and braced, then screwed the broken pieces back together and tightened down the anchor bolt nuts.  Stupid!  But then, we all do stupid things, it's just how often and what the consequences are that matter.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/broken_driver.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/broken_sill_plate.jpg)


Anyway, continued with layout, drawing placement for studs, windows and doors as in the picture below.  Got the second section built and used the FEL very, very carefully this time, with two tie-down straps to stabilize and lift it into place over a vent pipe set in the wall floor.  Next picture shows Jessie after she helped with this-- amazing how an extra pair of hands to stabilize and guide make all the difference in the world.  Picture after shows her tightening down the anchor bolts.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/plates_markde_for_nailing.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/2nd_section_ready.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/Jessie_holding_up_wall.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/Jessie_and_anchor_bolts.jpg)


Somehow in the course of getting 2X4 studs for the interior walls cut, I realized that this wasn't a productive use of my time, and since time is money, I went to Lowe's and spent some of each: came home with a load of lumber that thrilled the daughter but I have to admit is not the color I'd have picked for framing lumber:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/load_of_pink_studs.jpg)

This stuff creeps into your work and starts to turn every thing the same- weird hybrid structures starting to develop that I will forever deny ever existed inside the walls of the finished house; all the more reason to finish quick before any of the subcontractors start work.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/wall_turning_pink.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/hybrid_walls.jpg)


Help!  I've been infected by commercial lumber!  Well, so much for hysteria; at least the pace has picked up some, now that I'm not back and forth to mill just to make some 2X4's.  Still making all the 2X6's though which means at least every other day pulling boards from the drying stack, putting them back on the mill and trimming down to 5 1/2" in width so they fit PT sill plates.  At least it lets me make sawdust on a regular basis, and that helps.  I have to admit, though, that framing is my favorite part of building: laying out the walls on the slab with all the key components in place (like doors- it really helps to have doors in your finished house), laying out the sill and top plates, nailing and screwing everything together and then raising and bracing.  It's especially satisfying when you start putting in the interior walls that intersect the outer ones- that's when you find out if your slab really is straight and square and your first sections were put together flat and square on the slab so they rose up into place just right.  I barely needed the level for the last few sections shown above (just joking: a level is absolutely the single most important tool at this stage, other than safe work habits and a partially functional brain of some kind... in short supply around here, it seems, at least until the daughter shows up).

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: submarinesailor on April 21, 2011, 06:11:58 AM
Lj,

I just gotta ask;  what's the pink for?  Mold and mildew treatment?

Bruce
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 21, 2011, 07:36:09 AM
I think that they are Martha Stewart Designer 2x6's  :D.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Buck on April 21, 2011, 07:44:17 AM
Temple Inland uses dye on studs. Kinda separates them from the pack. That and the wagonwheel T logo are their mark around here.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 21, 2011, 09:15:57 AM
Actually, the pink color was not my idea- these are store-bought 2X4's that I couldn't make for the price they sell them at... Martha may have been involved, who knows? Or maybe "American Idol Wood" or "Dancing with Star Lumber" or ... well enough foolishness, back to work.  :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on April 21, 2011, 10:40:01 AM
Often a die is used to cover some off-color of the wood. May have blue stain (which doesn't affect the strength) or be a species that has a different tone to it that the customer may not be familiar with. So they die them to make them all look the same. Now why they'd pick pink..... ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 21, 2011, 01:18:23 PM
Pink was chosen to allow those of who are secure in our manhood to allow those that aren't to think otherwise... what?   :)  Shoot, I don't know, maybe the owner of the lumber company has a wife who likes pink, or maybe the owner IS the wife...  only thing that matters is: are the straight and strong, and they seem to be for the most part.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on April 21, 2011, 01:24:23 PM
Quote from: ljmathias on April 21, 2011, 01:18:23 PM
Pink was chosen to allow those of who are secure in our manhood to allow those that aren't to think otherwise... what?   :)  ............

Yeah, riiight!!  ;D    :D :D
Get it covered up quick a'fore the subc's come, like you said. ;)   
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 21, 2011, 06:05:25 PM
Back to business of framing.  But to frame you have to have lumber, and I'm basically cutting as we go, so it was back to the sawmill this morning to clean up some 2X6's and 2X4's.  Didn't realize I had any more 2X4's buried in the stack but did so loaded the FEL half with those and half with the 2X6's, took them to the mill (30' away), stacked all the same width on (MOL the same, which is why I'm trimming them), and cut them to exact dimension lumber dimensions.  Did two FEL loads which was enough to finish the east wall.  First three pictures below are 2X6's before, during and after trimming.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/2X6_to_be_trimmed.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/2X6_being_trimmed.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/2X6_trimmed.jpg)

Next two pictures below show the rest of the days work: building two sections of the east wall and getting them up.  Getting better at double checking my work- had forgotten to put a "nailer" in next to the wall stud for the interior wall of the bedroom- needed to tie the ends of the interior siding or drywall to something at the soon-to-be interior corner.  Trimmed up the window on this wall as we don't need it as a temporary "door" as in the north wall- left both windows there without the bottom sills and cripples so we could freely go in and out with lumber and stuff.  :)  Having learned my lesson on dropping walls that break things, I used the FEL very carefully to pull the longest section upright onto 2X4's that were laid inside the anchor bolts.  This gave the sill plate something to push against to distribute the load so I didn't accidently bend one of them over- don't ask.   >:(

Working alone requires some dexterity and speed- daughter and grandson were tied up moving- even with a FEL to help.  Got the longest section upright and then couldn't get the 2X4 out from under so it could drop down on the bolts.  Took some back and forth finangling with one hand on a pick (good lifting leverage) or hammer, holding it upright with the other hand while I pull the 2X4 out with the other.  Oh, wait, that's three hands, which means I had use my feet which looked really crazy- me trying to hold the wall up and balanced and jump-pulling the board out.  Oh, well, looking crazy goes with the territory here- finally got it out, the section dropped down, anchor nuts on and everything leveled up with a brace.  Then nailed and screwed the connecting studs together to join it firmly to the section already standing.  

Whew!  Couple of times I almost lost it, which is why you need to be fast- drop the pick, pull it back upright just before it goes over, and try again.  Lots of sweat on this one, but finally got it lined up pretty good.  Pulled the next section over and hoisted it into place, using the FEL to lean against while I did some trim work on the sill plate so it would fall into place and line up right.  Then another brace, more nails and screws to tie it to the section just put up, and that wall is framed!  Laid out the walls for the master bedroom closet, the doorway wall into the master bath, and it started to thunder, then drizzle.  Figure this was a good time to quit for a cup of coffee so put all the tools in the truck cab- waterproof storage at its best!  Just made it back to the house when it cut loose pretty good, the wife came in from shopping, so we discussed plans for the Thursday service at the church, and here I am, finished for the day whether I want to be or not.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/east_wall_perspective.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3443/East_wall_up.jpg)

Things are going slower than I'd hoped.  Had coffee with daughter last evening at the bookstore- after church tradition with us: we have dinner at the church, then the grandkids that are there play with the other kids on the playground, then we go recover over coffee.  Sometimes it's important just to reflect and plan, which made us realize that we won't be ready for trusses for a couple of weeks- business trip next week, then making a timber bent to support the loft floor and trusses at the ceiling, finish the rest of the framing.  Well, at least things are going even if not as fast as we'd like... and the house is beginning to look more and more like a real house!  Daughter is super excited and spends a few minutes each time she comes to help just looking at how everything is laid out and fitting together- dreaming is half the fun.  :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on April 21, 2011, 08:39:37 PM
Nothing is as exciting as building your own house. 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on April 22, 2011, 07:55:25 AM
Quote from: WDH on April 21, 2011, 08:39:37 PM
Nothing is as exciting as building your own house. 

I agree Danny!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: PC-Urban-Sawyer on April 22, 2011, 12:15:52 PM
Quote from: Raider Bill on April 22, 2011, 07:55:25 AM
Quote from: WDH on April 21, 2011, 08:39:37 PM
Nothing is as exciting as building your own house. 

I agree Danny!

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I can think of one thing that's usually more exciting than building your own house.  No further details because this is a family content site...

Herb
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on April 22, 2011, 10:07:27 PM
Finally had a full day to work, and got a whole bunch done.  Daughter was tied up showing her house and getting stuff boxed up and moved out, so I worked alone most of the day... until almost supper time when I got the helped needed to raise the walls.  So, last picture last post showed east wall of the Master Bedroom.  Today, first thing I managed to knock out the corner closet- not what I would have built but it was in the plans and Jessie liked it, so there it is.  Had to build the first of three sections for the south exterior wall first, then tied the closet frame to this and to the east exterior wall put up before:


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3458/BR_corner_closet.jpg)

This picture also illustrates why having a sawmill in your toolbox is so handy.  In the past, I've cobbled together door and window headers using store-bought dimension lumber, which works alright if you don't mind using mixed thicknesses.  This time I cut a log from my hoard into  8 1/4" wide planks (picture below), and then used these as the main uprights for the headers.  This width allowed me to cut top and bottom plates from 2X4 r 2X6 stock; all four pieces ready to assemble below.  Never seen 2X9 dimension lumber for sale, but it would probably be "shrunk down" to about the size needed here.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3458/8_in_header_lumber.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3458/header_boards.jpg)

Nail on the two studs, one on each side, then the two jack studs (support studs inside of these butting up to the header, and you've got the window roughed in.  Of course, if not going to use this window as a temporary door, it's best to go ahead and put in the window support plate plus the cripples to support- you can see this assembly installed in several of the pictures here.

Spent the rest of the morning and most of the afternoon building the two sections left for the south wall.  I would do the door differently next time, locking it into the middle of a section rather than at one edge.  Oh, well, six inch walls are a whole lot different to frame ups than typical 2X4 stick frame walls- harder to assemble and much harder to raise, set with a level and make perfect.... well, as perfect as I'm able to. :D

Around 5, Jessie and Josh (2nd son, the plumber) answered my call for help and showed up to assist in raising wall sections to heavy for me alone.  We made a startling discovery that answers a question raised here- why pink lumber from the big box store?  Turns out it matches my daughter's toe nail polish perfectly, meaning that either the manager of the sawmill making this lumber uses this particular brand and color, or his wife does, whichever.  Second picture shows Josh figuring how the best way to lift and raise a really heavy 16' section of south wall.  The three of us finally got it up, braced both ways and anchored with bolts and nuts.  Then fit in the door section I'd built earlier, trimmed the top plate for a better fit, and tied the two together.  Then slid in the last section of the west wall of the master bedroom. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3458/Jessie_nail_polish_matches.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3458/Josh_helping_raise_big_section.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3458/west_BR_wall_up.jpg)


By a little after six, I'd nailed these all together, picked up the tools and put them in the cab of the truck in preparation for an 11 day absence from the work site, and moseyed uphill to the house for dinner.  At this point, I was tired, but didn't realize how tired till I took a quick shower, ate supper and tried to get up to help with the dishes- couldn't move.  Remember the scary TV ad some time ago, "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!"  ?  Well, I didn't have the strength to move at all and ended up sitting over dirty dishes for a few minutes, willing my arms and legs to move and hoping I didn't just fall off the chair and lay on the floor, crying out like that old woman in the ad...

Too tired now for any more but I'll catch up tomorrow.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on April 23, 2011, 08:16:14 AM
Quote from: PC-Urban-Sawyer on April 22, 2011, 12:15:52 PM
Quote from: Raider Bill on April 22, 2011, 07:55:25 AM
Quote from: WDH on April 21, 2011, 08:39:37 PM
Nothing is as exciting as building your own house. 

I agree Danny!

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I can think of one thing that's usually more exciting than building your own house.  No further details because this is a family content site...

Herb

In my case the houses stick around longer, are cheaper and are way more reliable. ;D ;) :D

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: submarinesailor on May 04, 2011, 06:03:26 PM
OK Lj, its been 13 days and I'm in bad need of a fix here. :-\ ;D ::)  I need my daily dosage of " not quite a frame frame". :o :o :o :o :D

Just kidding - hope the business trip went will.  Off to Chicago ::) next week myself for GasMart, trade show for the gas industry.

But I still need my daily dosage......................  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::);D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Bruce
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on May 04, 2011, 08:22:13 PM
He is probably out looking for some pink or mauve sheathing to go with the 2x4's  :D.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: jamesamd on May 04, 2011, 10:16:51 PM
Lj,We know thats Your foot in the flip-flop,but We don't make judgements,here.............












Men ,have to do what,what they ,got to do :D
Jim




Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 06, 2011, 04:54:18 AM
Finally made it back to the US- was in South Africa when bin Laden was taken out and strange to not be at home when that happened.  Oh, well...

Did find some beautiful chartreuse siding but it doesn't go well with the framing lumber so I guess I'll have to keep looking.  And I haven't worn flip-flops in years, and it amazes me the places you see people with them on, like on international flights and airports- what if there was an emergency and you had to actually run somewhere? Or someone dropped something really heavy on your foot?  Getting more and more into the Boy Scouts, so getting the "Be Prepared!" hammered in at every weekly meeting is starting to take hold.

Hope to do a bunch of work this weekend, from finishing up the framing to getting some sheathing up to lock in the square on the frame to starting the actual timber framed support holding up the loft floor and trusses.  Wow, am I ever ready to be back at it!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 10, 2011, 07:35:12 PM
Well, I'm back in business, or at least trying to be... been at it for two days and results are really starting to show.  In fact, today we (Jessie was helping) almost finished up all the first floor interior room framing. Pictures below are of the master bedroom closet (may have shown this from a different angle), the master bath with the head wall up to house the plumbing and separate it from the commode, and the pantry.  The last was a late addition- seems a lot of you work from napkins at an early stage- I actually bought a set of plans for this house and while the basic footprint has stayed constant, lots of details have gotten shifted or modified.  Worked yesterday till 4 or so, and Jessie came over to decide on location for kitchen windows.  We went through the whole house in an hour or so, visualizing where everything would be and ended up making some changes, which is always good to do before you actually build it... :)  I know from experience how that goes, and if someone was paying for this, those "change orders" would be worth a bundle. :D  Anyway, the pantry came into existence when we realized there was this beautiful empty wall and space next to the back door- we'd eliminated the double doors- couldn't see them working for this family- and substituted a 36" regular exterior which gave us an extra 3' to play with, hence the built in pantry.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/Jessies_closet.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/master_bath_bathtub.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/pantry.jpg)

So now to sheathing, and I know, the exterior walls aren't all up yet!  Well, knowing that lots of framers use plywood or OSB sheathing at corners to lock in square, I figured I might as well go ahead and start that process since I can that by myself- can't lift the 2X6 exterior frames into place alone, unless I'm willing to risk damage to myself and the frame.  Bought enough OSB to do the first floor exterior and went to work.  Two things that are really great: hurriquake nails, a battery powered large caliber glue gun, and glue, of course (sure, that's three things, but who's counting?).  So first thing I do is gently pound three nails at the junction of the sill plate and the foundation- these hold the sheet of OSB up so I can nail it in place with the fantastic hurriquake nails.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/nails_to_hold_the_sheathing.jpg)

Then I use this battery powered glue gun, it's a real hand and arm-saver: .  I don't know if any other companies make any like this or not; I got this baby with a bag full of other stuff (which I seldom use) on special from Rigid.  I bought the whole set so I could get this glue gun, which is fantastic- hang on to the ladder with one hand, reach out and slobber some glue on the frame for the next 4X8' sheet of OSB, move the ladder and finish the bottom half.  Where it really shines is on roof sheathing, where I have to hang on with one hand (fear of heights) while I apply the glue.  So the second picture below shows how artistically I make this glue application.  Can't say it was all my fault though- summer heat is here and the 90 F temp made the glue run like honey...  :(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/battery_powered_glue_gun.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/glue_on_a_joint.jpg)

Oh, and here's a blurry picture (sorry) of the hurriquake nails.  These won a Popular Mechanic's best in class award a while back- they've been tested on pull out and it takes 3 times as much force to pull these as regular galvanized and maybe twice as much as ring-shank.  They're a little more pricey, but I can tell you from changing the garage into a boys bedroom on the last house- the nails don't come out without a huge amount of effort.  Couple that with the glue, which stops the initial movement that loosens regular nails, and you have enormously stronger sheathing.  This is important because with stick framing, the sheathing works in conjunction with the mostly inadequate 2X4 stud walls to really strengthen the envelope of the house- it's the combination that works so well, and the "glue and screw" method of hanging the sheathing makes it even better.  Ok, so it's not really "screwed in" but it's close and it's fast with a good nail gun.  Since the picture's so bad, here's what these nails have: part spiral shaft, part ring-shank, and the two together make strong joints.  Someone else (can't find the reference) did a study on "glue and screw" vs just nails on the exterior sheathing: four times stronger in racking (if I remember the numbers right, which I may not have... >:(  )

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/hurriquake_nails.jpg)

And now pictures of the sheathing up- first two pieces, then the whole east wall.  As I got to the low end of the slope, on the south part of the wall, I was lifting almost three feet up in the air to get the sheets onto the nails and lined up with the last piece- but then, you do what you gotta do to get 'er done.  I've often heard it said "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger."  Well, folks, I ain't getting any stronger so I'm not sure what the outcome will be here... :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/sheathing_going_up.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/first_wall_sheathed.jpg)

And just to show that I am learning from all this, here's a view down the east wall which is actually as flat and square as it looks.  Used the old trick of running a string from one corner to the other and pulling the wall in or out as needed, then putting the top plate on and nailing it in place.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/pretty_straight_wall.jpg)

Well, got to go- time for Scouts and the grandson is getting anxious- he had two teeth pulled today to allow braces to work their wonders, and his antics under laughing gas were really laughable- daughter did a terrible thing and recorded most of it on her cell phone- strange what that stuff can do to you, maybe why I hate drugs so much.  More later...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on May 11, 2011, 09:07:47 AM
Change orders on cocktail napkins are easy just order another drink........
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on May 11, 2011, 09:37:40 PM
The time, thought, and quality that you are putting in the design of this house will pay off big time.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 14, 2011, 06:49:24 AM
Saturday morning, rain is over and the severe thunderstorm missed us last night, thankfully.  Sorry I've been lax on posting last few days, but a week of 8-10 hour days of 'getting stronger' building took their toll.  It was actually a welcome relief to have it rain yesterday afternoon- the day started out badly, had to work alone sheathing and was making mistake after mistake (some not of my own doing, although when you take on the responsibility to build a house, I guess all mistakes are yours).  Put up most of the equipment when the thunder started and just finished hammering in a sheet of OSB when it started in earnest, hurried to cover last few electrical tools and ran toward the house in the downpour.  Then as I got thoroughly soaked and realized how cool and refreshing the rain felt (just like the grandkids who love playing in the rain), I slowed to a walk and just enjoyed it.  Sometimes getting rained on is the best thing that can happen to you- got home, changed clothes and spent a couple of hours catching up on forum entries, then a former student of mine showed up after graduation and we relaxed for a while catching up on his job and family.  Never did get back to the work site last evening- felt good for a change not to go to bed bone tired.

To catch up some on our progress, Jessie has been helping a lot with the sheathing, although she doesn't quite grasp the idea of covering up windows and then cutting out the sheathing- here she is "gazing" out the window in her bedroom.  Next is her pulling the nails set under the sill plate that held the sheet up we just glued and nailed in place- sheathing is SO much easier with two people! This is on the south wall and since we had a slab poured there for the porch, we put up scaffolding on wheels- makes it even easier not having to lift the sheets up to chest high to place them from ground level.  Oh, and another point: if you plan on doing much construction or upkeep on your buildings (and don't we all?), buying some scaffolding is money well spent.  When I built the first two houses, I rented the stuff- ended up paying about 3 times what I could have bought it for (problem with working alone- progress is really, really slow sometimes).  Also, it is so much safer putting up three levels of scaffolding to paint the top part of the wall and trim (which is what the wife is doing right now) then to work from a ladder with one arm stretched over your head as you cling for dear life and can't even see what you're painting.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/Jessie_looking_out_window%7E0.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/Jessie_sheathing.jpg)

Another point to keep in mind- cut about twice as much dimension lumber as you think you need.  With culls and uses I forgot about (bracing and top plates), I ran out of 2X4 and 2X6 boards before the last walls were done, which meant more of the hideous pink lumber.  Good news, though, is that we got a good price on pre-cut 2X6 studs for the west wall and the last of the north wall (only about 30 boards) but it saved the effort of pulling or cutting more logs which would have been another day lost- we're anxious to finish the first floor framing and get housewrap on it for rain protection: trusses should be ready next week or the week after and I still have two 8X36' porches to get up to hold the trusses up.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/Jessie_and_pink_stud%7E0.jpg)

Framed up the first section of the west wall- did the 26' wall in two pieces, one 12' and the other 14', neither of which I could lift by myself.  Luckily, we had a visitor from out of town- our 'Auburn daughter' who spent a semester with us while she did summer internship at the university here.  On her last day of break before summer school back at Auburn, she came over with Jessie and River to help lift- my goodness, it was easy with four people!  We lifted it up, slid it over, lifted it onto the anchor bolts and slid it down 6" to drop in place, all without breaking a sweat- and that just doesn't happen in the recent 90/90 days we've been having.  First picture is of the "crew" about to lift, then of them enjoying the fruits of their labor, such as it was.  Amazing how the old saying is true- many hands make light work, even if the hands are inexperienced.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/wall_raising_crew2.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/exterior_wall_up_with_crew.jpg)

Finished out that day by completing the last section for the west wall, getting the wife and Jessie and River to help lift it into place (Kayla had already gone back to Auburn): west wall ready for hurricane ties and sheathing-

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/west_wall_complete.jpg)

Time to talk about hurricane ties.  Yeah, I know, it's not how they do it in Florida, but we don't get hit as often as they do, and being an eternal optimist (who prepares for the worst, which my wife says makes me a pessimist- go figure), I just use the 4" half-twist straps top and bottom of the frame.  Picture below shows one section where I put ties on both sides of the anchor bolt- I don't always do that, sometimes using just one tie per bolt, but it depends in part on how far apart the bolts are in a given wall.  Here's one job where having the right tool is important: Bostich makes a nail gun just exactly for nailing these ties in place- uses 2" nails, thicker than regular nail gun nails, and has a special two-stage press-and-shoot mechanism which is actually a PITA to get to work right- the first "press" to activate the gun takes too much effort, a design flaw that should be fixed.  In any case, this gun makes the ties go about 10 times faster than nailing by hand, and the problem with hand drives is that you have to hold the tie in place with one hand, hold the nail in place with the other, and hammer it in with the third- and try as I might, that third hand just hasn't materialized yet.   ;D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/hurricane_ties3.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/hurricane_tie2.jpg)

So now we have all the exterior frames up except for one section of the north wall where I'll drive in with the FEL to lift the timber framed loft support and roof beam bent into place.  Also, all the interior walls are done now except for the one facing the closet for the hot water heater and HVAC unit- had to get specs from the HVAC contractor and my son on heights for the pedestals and opening for the air return.  Turns out that 30" should just about work, plus that is just about right for the pre-hung doors that Lowes has for this purpose: 24X60".  These doors have no pre-cut opening for a door knob unit, which is fine since I'll just use a surface mount knob and a magnetic catch.  That also means I can put in two side by side opening from the middle, which will let the plumber and the HVAC contractor install their units and get them hooked up fine.  Air return opening needs to be 24 1/2" by 30 1/2" so I'll frame that up today, stand that wall with the two door frames in place, and was planning on lining it.

You have to line the HVAC area for two reasons- keep the air flow going right, and slow down fires.  Yeah, I know, who plans for fires?  Little fact I learned a while back: better to plan then get surprised.  No, nothing of ours burned, but I was working on the house a couple of days ago, and black smoke starts pouring up over the trees between us and the neighbor across the road.  Seems his shed/barn was on fire.  Right after the smoke, all kinds of booms and pops- must have been filled with spray paint cans, old cans of paint, bottles of stuff (I'm not guessing as to what) but that sure made for excitement and sad for him, although it was a shed in need of being replaced.  Other little fact I learned- dry wall (plaster board, whatever you call it) is excellent fire block- it's mineral filled and doesn't burn so it actually is a key part of slowing down or stopping a fire that might start in a house.... and where is a likely place for that?  Of course: the HVAC and water heater closet!  So I'd "misplaced" that fact in my head and was about to haul over a sheet of 3/8" plywood to line the closet when the neighbors shed burned up: bang! My subconscious retrieved the drywall fact and I realized I'd have to wait to line it till after it's under roof- need the fire protection but don't need the drywall to get rained on.  So that part is on hold.

Today we finish up the sheathing except for that last little section in the north wall, frame up the HVAC closet and that finishes the interior walls, and start on the porches- bought pressure treated 6X6's for those as I've seen what happens to untreated posts used for porches and carports when exposed to the weather.  Sure they last a long time, but when they fail, they just crumble from wet rot.  I need this house to last long after I'm gone so better to pay a little bit and have the security.  Well, the sun's up- off to work.  Have a great day, you all- looks to be a beaut!   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on May 14, 2011, 08:40:32 AM
I haven't visited this thread in a while...I'm amazed at your progress. :)

This thread should be required reading for anybody building a house.  Wish it was in existence when I started my house.  Would have saved me a lot of head scratching, along with a few mistakes.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 14, 2011, 09:57:07 PM
Thanks for the words of encouragement, you all; time for today's update.  First thing we did this morning was finish up the sheathing.  First picture shows Jessie hammering in nails on the last of the south wall sheathing- this is important when you glue to the studs as the glue will hold the sheathing out a little bit so hammering them in after putting them in place with the nail gun tightens up the connection and makes the wall flat.  Second is a picture of the south wall finished with windows cut out and door open for business- if you have really long legs, of course, or like to jump up and down four feet to get in and out; porch is coming soon, hopefully in the next couple of days.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/Jessie_hammering_home_nails.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/south_wall_sheathed.jpg)

Next picture is Jessie with the battery powered glue gun- she picked up on this pretty fast although she moved a little slow in spreading the glue on the studs and plates, which means the "bead" was actually more like a whole lot of wasted glue that squeezed out when we nailed the sheets up.  Oh, well- that's how you learn.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/Jessie_with_powered_glue_gun.jpg)

Once we finished putting up the sheathing on the north wall, the windows had to be cut out.  On the first house I built, I measured carefully the opening in the frame, lined out the window (or door) on the sheet on the ground, cut it out and THEN put it up- usually got it pretty close but not always which meant re-cutting after it was put up.  Why not just skip the first step and cut it after it's up?  That's what the pro's do and after watching them use nails and a drill to locate the corners of the opening to the outside (so they could mark and cut from the outside), I decided to use the impact driver and screws: much easier and faster to put in accurately, and a whole lot faster to remove just before the actual saw work.  So here's the process I use, and it's actually pretty fast: drive a screw through at each corner of the window, just a little bit up from actual corner so that the angle the screw makes puts the point outside exactly where the corner is; now go outside and snap chalk lines around and between the four screws; remove the screws; cut the window from the outside with a circular saw set at just the thickness of the sheathing- no need to cut into your frame any.  Pictures below show a screw from the inside, from the outside, and the chalk line after the screws are removed.  Last picture is of Jessie looking out the west wall with the windows cut out and all ready for house wrap.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/screw_to_locate_window_corner.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/screw_in_window_corner_outside.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/chalk_line_for_window_cutout.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/Jessie_looking_out_west_window.jpg)

One nice thing about making progress, especially with sheathing- it hides a lot of mistakes.  Don't know if you remember, but early on I mentioned that I had located the vent pipe for the waste pipe directly under a window.  The picture below shows how I worked around this, using a couple 45 degree bends, a circular saw and a spade bit in a drill: ran the pipe over and through the window leg, and up through the top sill.  Normally my son would do this during the rough in stage of plumbing, after all the framing and sheathing is done, but in this case, I didn't want to go through three support legs to the right, so went up through a C-shaped wall junction which would not have been accessible after sheathing was done, so best to go ahead and route it now.  We'll just have to be careful of the vent pipe sticking up a bit when we set the trusses.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/vent_pipe_zig.jpg)

Now that all the sheathing was up and window openings cut in, we moved on to the porches.  First order of business was to lay out and raise the walls for the "equipment room" that will take up six feet of the north porch, leaving 28' for other stuff and the door into the kitchen.  Jessie caught me in the picture below just after I'd used my "persueder" to straighten up the wall a little bit- just like with kids, sometimes you have to get their attention first using something heavy...   :D 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3484/me_with_the_big_wall_straightener.jpg)

This wall (and the opposite wall to be made last) were particularly dicey as we'd poured the slabs with a built in 2" drop over the 8' to allow good run-off.  We'd also built in a 3" step down from the main house slab to the porch slab to keep water from blowing in under the door or the sill plate (not likely after we seal it) and to keep water from wetting the bottom of the sheathing, the siding and frame- rot happens when water is present.  Long story short: had to use over-size studs for this part (cut from 2X6's 10' long) AND had to cut each one to fit the slope so the top plate would be level with the rest of the house to support the trusses.  Took some careful line-of-sight eyeballing to line up the board Jessie was holding up on the outside with the top plates of the exterior wall inside the house, but we got 'er done.  It was now 6:30 or so, dinner was calling and I was starting to make stupid mistakes, so we called it quits for the night.  Important rule: when you start making bad decisions or not thinking through what you're doing before you cut the lumber, then it's time to quit or take a long break, even if it's first thing in the morning.  That's what happened to me yesterday- one stupid mistake after another (haven't told you the really dumb one yet), so by 9 am I was in dire need of coffee and some quiet meditation to get my brain re-calibrated, something not easy for someone who's highly ADHD... if you know what I  mean. ;)  Didn't mention the hour I spent this morning fixing the really dumb mistake I made yesterday, so let's not talk about it: key point is this- fix it right away, don't wait till later when it's harder or when you might forget to do it till it's too late cause you already put the trusses up and now you have to live with it.   >:(

Some days you win, some you lose and some you just break even.  I've learned over the years that no matter what kind of day it is, keep pushing ahead, fix the mistakes and try to make not so many the next day- So the plan for tomorrow: finish up the equipment room, sheath it and get started on the north porch posts and beams, but that will come after church and I crank up the sawmill to cut the beams to size: sawdust again at last!   :)

Lj

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on May 14, 2011, 10:49:40 PM
Awesome.  It is starting to be a house now.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: thecfarm on May 15, 2011, 06:42:13 AM
Looking real good. I always say ,You have to do something to make mistakes.  ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on May 15, 2011, 07:08:23 AM
Try using a router with a bottom bearing bit to cut out your windows/doors.  I cut every hole in osb with a Freud 1/2" bit.  Even used it to cut the off fall on full sheets of the gable ends, and roof.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 15, 2011, 04:50:43 PM
Larry- thanks, great idea and you don't have to have a line to follow.  I'll try it on the gable ends since the windows are all cut now.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on May 16, 2011, 11:59:58 AM
looks like you guys are having a blast building this place 8)
We get funny looks when we tell people we're actually ENJOYING building our house :o :D
Seems like the essence of building a homestead has gotten lost along the way for most :(
Thanks for sharing it with us!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on May 16, 2011, 12:59:29 PM
Quote from: frwinks on May 16, 2011, 11:59:58 AM
looks like you guys are having a blast building this place 8)
We get funny looks when we tell people we're actually ENJOYING building our house :o :D
Seems like the essence of building a homestead has gotten lost along the way for most :(
Thanks for sharing it with us!

I couldn't agree more! Building my house was one of the best times in my life. Some people just don't get it I guess..
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 17, 2011, 07:14:25 AM
Well, last two days have resulted in two key framing components getting done along with wrapping the first floor frame with house wrap- all these took about twice as much time as I'd planned for but how's that saying go about the best laid plans of mice and men?  At least were getting closer to being ready for the trusses... :o

The HVAC closet was something of a challenge for two reasons- one, I didn't plan adequately for the door (actually two doors), and I actually did this one knowing what was needed.  Last house I built, I completely forgot about having an HVAC location inside the house and had to convert a small closet to one after the frame was up and the roof on.  Having learned that lesson (I hope- never can tell with memory what it is) I chose the location for the closet carefully this time, even though it was not even in the plans I bought- how could an architect worth his/her salt forget this most important component of a house?  Anyway, daughter was disappointed because we turned her coat closet near the back door into a combined HVAC and hot water heater closet.  She saw the light when faced with the option of having neither- boy, some lessons are hard to hammer home!   ;D

I allocated what I thought was enough space inside the closet, moving the east wall over two feet for the water heater, but totally forgot to price doors.  Last house I fabricated a door that screws into place- has a nice white-board on the front for messages that the kids never use, another great idea that went nowhere.  This time, planning ahead wisely, I went to Lowes and found the doors actually designed for an HVAC closet- 24X60" which is great, neither right or left handed so you install as needed with top and bottom the same on the prehung door unit.  Anyway, with the extra needed for the door opening, the extra 2X needed at the edges all around for the non-load bearing frame, and height needed for the air return filter opening (24X30"), I had just exactly enough room to fit it in all in with 3" to spare.  Lesson learned: next house, plan more carefully.  Of course, I could say that phrase over and over again with virtually every step in the process, from plans to finish trim... :D  

Picture below shows the final frame in place- took an hour to cut and put together in the right order, leaving out support and side trim 2X's so I could nail it into the existing walls first, then put in the remaining pieces and tighten everything up.  Oh, and I've reduced my "margins" for openings on the interior- I build a lot more square than most contractors, I guess, and have found that leaving a full inch on each side of a window or door opening means I have to put in a piece of 2X stock to fill the gap, so nowadays I tend to use just half an inch.  With the small doors and the need to locate them as close to the side walls as possible for maximum axis to the interior for water heater and HVAC unit installation, I only left half an inch total in each opening.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/HVAC_closet_east_view.jpg)

The next-to-last framing component to finish was the added-on exterior equipment or storage room (did I say "change order?") which was my daughter's idea and a good one- you never have enough storage.  This space we designed to either store stuff in or use as a work area, so we put in a window opposite the door for natural light and we'll build in a workbench just below it to do stuff on... or just pile stuff on, whichever.  First picture shows first two walls to the east and north, second picture with the west wall and door frame.  I think I mentioned what a pain this was to frame up- with the 2" slope in the slab for rain run-off, I had to cut every stud individually.  On top of that, the outer wall on which the trusses will set had to be eyeballed carefully to bring the top plate into the plane of the rest of the house- helps to have all your truss supports lined up or your trusses do weird things, bowing and twisting out of true (and how do I know this?  Ah, that's a secret I'm not ready to share yet  ;)  ).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/equip_room_north_wall_up.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/equip_room_door_wall.jpg)

I mentioned using a "true" nail gun to tie sill plates to concrete- here are two pictures of the actual gun and a couple of nails in the equipment room west wall holding the frame in place.  After pounding the 3" concrete nails down flush, the frame will be held pretty well from lateral movement (which keeps the walls from moving around as you do the trim work), but they aren't any good at preventing lift.  Oh, they help some, but not like anchor bolts combined with hurricane ties, but at least they add something to overall stability.  You absolutely have to anchor interior walls with concrete nails or drill-and-smash in place anchor bolts.  I see a lot of construction that doesn't do this and can't figure out what they're thinking- walls that will move if you happen to bump into them hard?  Not too pleasant for a new home owner...  >:(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/22_cal_nail_gun.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/nail_gun_into_concrete.jpg)

Well, the big news was getting some house wrap up.  This does two things for us- sure, it is important for the final structure, stopping or slowing moisture transport in and out of the frame and house, but for now, it serves as a "rain coat" for the frame, keeping water falling from the sky from warping the frame and swelling up the OSB.  When we built the neighbor's house (long story there), we got the frame up, the sheathing on the walls and roof, but no house wrap on yet when Katrina hit- blew some of the roof sheathing off and absolutely soaked the OSB, some of which swelled to twice it's original thickness.  This made putting up siding a PITA, and it sure didn't look very good at the top of the exterior walls, with the sliding out about half and inch or so from plumb.  Much better to try and keep it as dry as possible.  We had a small rain after some of the OSB was up on this house, but not enough to make things really bad, and now the house wrap is on, folded over the top to protect the upper edge of the OSB, and we should be much better protected- we still have a few weeks before we can finish the porch supports and the TF bent to hold up the loft and trusses... too little time, too much to do, ain't that the story of life nowadays?

First picture shows River helping to hold up house wrap while Jessie and I button-nail it in place.  Second one shows Jessie trimming out a window opening, pulling the wrap in and around to tack it to the inside of the frame where the nail caps won't stick out from the wall and make a bulge in the interior wall siding.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/River_and_house_wrap.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/Jessie_trimming_window.jpg)

Even the wife, who is decidedly NOT a construction worker (although she does everything else just great) came over to "help," mainly by bringing us drinks and a snack and then holding the end of the house wrap roll while we finished up the south wall...  gotta love 'er, at least I do. :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/BJ_helping_wrap_house.jpg)

The wife is a great picture taker, sometimes too much so as we all get 'caught in the act' of doing stupid stuff.  Every once in a while she takes a beaut, though, and managed to catch River as he transforms into an Ent, with tree branches beginning to sprout from his head.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/River_the_Ent.jpg)

And just for the record, I actually do do more than supervise...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/me_and_house_wrap.jpg)

Sure is nice seeing one more step almost done in the long sequence that eventually results in a house... first picture below is the house-wrapped east wall, where most of our rain will hit.  Of course, nothing is as much fun as HAVING done work and being able to relax with the grandkids.  Second picture below is me with the two granddaughters, both with amazing personalities already.  The oldest definitely has a mind of her own and can be a real drama queen when she doesn't get her way, which is fairly often, actually.  The youngest must be incredibly bright (aren't all grandkids?) because she already knows how to buzz her lips as drool drips down her chin and then grins like "didn't I do great?" and all at three months!  Life goes on... :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/east_wall_wrapped.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3498/Lila_Lucy_and_I.jpg)

And yes, if you need to ask, that is a bandage on my nose- seems a window frame and I had a disagreement on who should occupy that particular piece of the space-time continuum... and yeah, the frame won that argument.  Got a goose-egg that wasn't the biggest I've ever had, and sliced the bridge of my nose a little, but at least no stitches this time. ;)  So today is dedicated to the last of the sheathing and house wrap we can do before we finish up the TF bent, getting wood pulled to trim for the porch support frame, and cutting out the 18' posts and 16' beam for the bent.  Lots of tractor work for the FEL and cutting with the sawmill, but hopefully we'll be ready to put up some of the porch framing by this evening... if not, I'll never tell.   ;D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on May 17, 2011, 09:53:17 PM
Looking a little banged up, but satisfied, Partner!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 19, 2011, 09:36:53 AM
Yeah, a little banged up but very satisfied- you know what they say about equipment: if it don't break, it ain't being used... same applies to the human body if you're doing something that challenges your abilities, which for me, is most of the time given the level of my abilities.   :)

Progress is being made at a level that my daughter and grandson are really beginning to appreciate- they've both added to their blog on the house building, giving their view of "reality" such as it is- I enjoy reading their entries since they see and say things quite differently from me: http://measureoncecusstwice.blogspot.com.

So as my grandson says, "the frame is a wrap!"  Two pictures below show the equipment room on the porch framed up, sheathed and wrapped, and the view of the entire north side of the frame but minus the huge gap that will allow me to bring in posts and beams to build the bent that will be a central part of the living area...  more on that later. ;)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/equip_room_wrapped.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/north_wall_wrapped.jpg)

Sorry for the pun on movie making, but there certainly is a lot of drama in building a house, not the least of which involves making nature's resources (wood) do what you want in the construction process.  Now that we've reached the point where support for the trusses is needed (got the call yesterday- they're ready for delivery next week), we have to finish up the two porch frames and the bent for the interior.  To do this, I dived into the stash of Katrina logs that have been "aging" in the pole barn: as you can see, the pickings are getting a little slim in number but sizes are still good.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/log_pile_decreasing.jpg)

First picture below shows the log that I sawed just one side flat on- we'll sand, stain and seal it for use as the beam at the top of the bent, the one holding up the trusses.  It's 10" still in diameter and the trusses actually sit on the outside two walls of the house, the house wall proper and the porch frame made of 6X6's, so the weight on the beam is well within what I used to calculate whether it was big enough using the handy-dandy tools on the forum.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/top_beam_for_bent_2.jpg)

Next picture below shows the pretty large Katrina log that I'd peeled and stored in the pole barn yeah, these many years (how many is it now, almost 6?)).  I'd taken some side boards off already, and after the picture, took off more to get it down to the right size for the four 6X6 beams I carved out of the middle.  Side wood is shown next before trimming down to 8" width for siding.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/big_Katrina_log_SYP.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beam_on_the_mill.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/side_wood_for_siding.jpg)

You might notice that the 6X6 beam shown is bowed- even after drying in the log for all these years, it still moved a lot when I was cutting it... just shows how persistent Mother Nature can be/is...  :D  Next are three logs about to become two 8X8 posts to hold up the two beams, and the bottom beam that will support the floor of the loft.  The posts will be squared up to just a little over 8" each way- this turned out to be easier to work for me: I trimmed slabs off to a 4/4 mark, then sliced off at that thickness till I got to the mark closest to 8" which turned out to give me a post a little bigger than I'd planned for which is fine- nothing depends on this or will be affected by the additional wood and it will help support everything.  I just have to remember to measure accurately as I lay out the marks for cutting shoulders and mortises.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/two_posts_and_a_beam.jpg)

Last picture is of the stringers I'd cut a while back and had air-drying- nominal 2X12's but a little short.  On drying, they had bowed some so I put them back on the mill and cut both sides to straighten them out. I used an online calculator to lay out the stairs and it shows a length of 16' 4"for the long part, longer than I'd planned because I forgot to take into account the 1' width of the floor trusses which raises the second floor to 9' 1".    Well, we'll cross that bridge (or stairs) when we come to it next week; got to get the bent up first and then put in the stairs. If it isn't one thing, it's another, in the immortal words of Rosanna Rosanna Dana.   :D  which certainly ages me more than building this house does.

Lj

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/2_by_12s_for_stringers.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on May 19, 2011, 08:15:32 PM
It is amazing that those logs kept as well as they did given our climate.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 19, 2011, 09:31:48 PM
Amazing is the right word for how these logs have held up.  Of course, I peeled them pretty soon after they fell, and got them out of the weather in the barn immediately after I peeled them, so they didn't get weather-rot like the two piles I had stashed outside (wouldn't fit in the barn) but foolishly didn't cover with anything.  Those logs turned into a really nice burn pile awhile back when I tried to find one that I could cut for siding- didn't happen!

The logs in the pole barn cut beautifully- nice straight slices, no waves or even teeth marks on the wood, and the sawdust came out like sand in size.  Didn't have to use water lube except once when I hit a resin pocket and gummed up the blade, but it cleaned right up with a generous squirt of water plus pine sole plus dishsoap- man that stuff works good!  and the value is great, if define "value" as performance over cost- cost is so low, i could dump it on by the bucket full and still win. :D

I cut the last beam today and a few more side boards for siding; still have to pull a log or two to turn into braces, and here I'm in a quandary: it might look nice to have braces the same size as the posts- 8X8"- but the weight would be enormous.  As it is, I'm not sure I'll be able to lift this thing into place with my poor little FEL- might be dangerous to boot.  Found an extendable all terrain forklift for rent- almost $2000 for a week, but it would sure make lifting the bent and getting all the trusses in place a whole lot easier.  So do I go with safety and speed at a much greater cost, or do we figure out some (safe) way of getting the bent up, putting up the porch posts and beams (6X6 but with one section spanning almost 20' and fairly heavy), and lifting the trusses up by hand plus FEL?  My stomach knots up thinking about lifting the bent into place- oh, I know, it can be done lots of simple ways as have been described on the forum, but I'm now in hurry mode- trusses will arrive Monday or Tuesday and I still have a solid week or ten days (Hah!  Best laid plans...) to get all the support structure in place and I don't want the trusses laying out in the weather for very long. Well, as Pooh the bear says, "Oh, bother!"  Did apply stain to three of the beams that will be used in the porches to support the trusses- color looks good and as soon as we get some siding stained and up, I'll post pictures of the process.

Off to Maryland to spend a couple days with my son and his family there.  We've entered his charter sail boat, the Lady Patty, in the "Elf Race," whatever that is- no plans to try to win, just to enjoy having the family on board with a few other "paying guests" while we sail along with the rest of the entries.  Should be fun and the weather looks good on Saturday- not so good on Friday or Sunday, but for race day, ok.  I'll let you know how we do... ???

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 24, 2011, 10:20:23 PM
Ok, just to prove we actually did crew in a sailboat race (for the first time), the pictures below document the event: the inaugural annual Elf classic boat race from Annapolis to St. Michael's, MD.  Both are beautiful locations, made more so by the classic wooden sailboats that bring to life the maritime heritage of the area.  My son's boat (first picture) is a 45' (40' deck), two-masted canoe stern boat vintage 1935, actually built near where she sails today.  Second picture shows the crew waiting for the captain on race day- this was actually the hardest part.  As my son says, sailboat racing is hours of boredom punctuated by moments of pure terror.  Well, the closest we got to the 'terror' part was raising and lowering the sails to try to catch some wind (third picture).  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3507/lady-patty.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3507/waiting_to_start.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3507/raising_the_main_sail.jpg)

The race started out in our favor, with a good following breeze that allowed us to out-sail most of the other participants, but then about noon, the wind died down to an occasional puff that let the less heavy and sail-endowed entries catch and pass us.  By 2 in the afternoon, we were becalmed and were informed that the race was to be 'called' at 3.  Not wanting to waste the afternoon (we were  not quite in last place), we motored on in to enjoy the St. Michael's Maritime Museum- great place to spend a few hours learning history and details of boating on the Chesapeake Bay.  And just to prove we actually did enter the race, here's a picture of the official entry recognition award (well, at least we got something out of it other than a great day of trying to sail), cast in metal and suitable for mounting:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3507/metal_racer_plate.jpg)

And anyone interested in a great way to spend a few hours on the water, I'll ask my son to give any forum member a free sail- of course, he just may say 'no'   :D  but then again, I do hold the mortgage on his boat.   ;D  Let me know if you're planning on being on the Eastern Shore, near Easton or better yet, St. Michael's or Tilghman Island- beautiful places to visit and lots of creative uses of wood in the maritime industries, even today. 

Now back to the more serious stuff of actually doing some post and beam work... in the next entry.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 24, 2011, 10:45:54 PM
Framing up the porch beams and the loft and truss support bent

Now the fun is really happening- working with big pieces of wood!  I showed one beam I'd cut earlier, and the picture below shows both of the beams for the interior bent, one to support the loft and one to support the trusses that we'll get later this week.  Both have partial rounded exposed surfaces (do you call this "live edge" even though it's not properly an edge?) that have to preped for the interior- lots easier to do this on the ground than up in the air.  Second picture shows the partially sanded area on the second beam- we'll finish that in the morning, do a smooth sanding with finer grit, than stain like the posts (got one post partially stained- third picture).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/two_beams.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/loft_beam_sanded.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/interior_post_stained.jpg)

Couple things to note about the last picture.  First, the rough sawn timber was cleaned up beautiful using a new toy  (oops, don't let the wife see that- tool, of course): a Makita 12" hand planar that came by UPS on Monday.  Boy, is that thing heavy and awkward to use!  At least it can be pushed slowly down a large piece of rough-flat wood to leave a glass-smooth surface that's ready for the next step, which is staining.  Daughter wanted something darker than the exterior color for the interior, so we picked up some Minwax Dark Walnut stain/sealer- gave a beautiful, rich dark color to the aged pine.  We thought of going with a clear finish, but the pine isn't really all that pretty, what with blue stain and worm trails (you can see them on the surface of the beam).  While these both add "character," we opted for half-a-character here, keeping just the worm trails and hiding the denim look.

The exterior stain is a lot redder than the color on the website we bought 30 gal from (ouch!  Don't ask) but it goes on great and even covers the icky yellow-green of the pressure treated 6X6's we'll use for the porch posts. Picture below shows a beam and the first piece of siding stained for the exterior; ok, so I may put up some siding in between doing other stuff- HDAD is great fun to have, and sometimes useful. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/stained_siding.jpg)

Tomorrow I start raising stained posts, bracing them up after which I'll drop (hopefully not literally) the beams on top for the front porch at the low end- almost 12' in the air.  I first have to cut the 8 1/2' tie-beams that will link the end posts to the house proper, stain those and raise them to link to the two end posts (ok, so it's out of order, I'm tired and ready for bed).  Then we'll put in angle braces- not mortice and tenon, however, just held in place with long timber screws.  This will be a two person job for sure as a 4' piece of 4X6 pine is pretty awkward to hold up and screw in place at the same time.  Then on to the real fun: making up the interior bent.  This will wait on staining everything, making rough cuts to length, cutting the M&T's, smoothing everything, trial fitting, final stain of newly-cut wood, and first coat of clear satin polyurethane.  More tomorrow...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: jamesamd on May 25, 2011, 10:24:07 PM
I love it LJ,can't wait for the next episode.
I want to see it standing 8)
Jim
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 26, 2011, 06:02:34 AM
Next episode isn't such a good one, actually. :'(  Daughter got side-tracked yesterday (as did I) and we decided we should burn off the pine straw around the knoll to prevent future problems in the ongoing drought.  Should have done this before we started building- we'd talked about it and then just plunged into the construction instead.  So, 7 am, light breeze blowing from the south, beautiful day, and we raked straw away from anything sensitive and started a downwind fire- letting the flames gradually move toward the wind rather than before it, easier to control and doesn't move fast at all.  Worked great even though the wind picked up some, got her burned off and settled down by early afternoon.  Between the heat and other duties, we took off for a couple hours and went back to the house.  Long about 5 or so, had just finished up a project in the house when we heard a noise just like a paint can exploding in a fire, maybe because it WAS a paint can exploding in a fire.  Pulled on my shoes and ran over to the hillside to see flames burning up the picnic table, the four plastic bins with assorted hand and power tools and my best Stihl chain saw.  Grabbed the hose and just managed to keep the flames from going under my faithful F150- son noted afterward that the right rear taillight cover had been "remodeld" by the heat- won't quote him on his comment though.  :-X  Spent the next two hours soaking every likely hot spot that might cause a flareup again, although since we'd burned the whole area, there wasn't any fuel left or real danger unless a spark jumped maybe 30 yards- just something to do while I absorbed the losses and counted our blessings: my truck escaped, none of the beams or lumber were touched, and most important, not a bit of damage to the frame.

So, I wake up at 4 am from a sound sleep knowing something is wrong, dash downstairs just as lightning lights up the sky: hadn't checked the forecast last night in my state of depressed happiness and had left quite a few tools out.  Grabbed clothes and shoes and a tarp, rushed to the knoll and managed to get everything in the cab of the truck or covered before it cut loose.  Walking back in the light rain that proceeded the downpour underway now, I kept having that up-and-down emotional surge again- we desperately needed the rain and desperately didn't want it to rain on the uncovered posts and beams only partially stained and sealed- the plastic sheets I'd kept from the foundation work for just such an event had burned up and I had nothing to cover them with- not many options at 4:30 in the morning in the dark so I came home, made a pot of coffee and got caught up on news and the forum.

Rain is coming down pretty heavy now, so the big question is: what will this do to the beautifully air-dried timbers laying out sucking up all this moisture?  Certainly won't be able to stain any for a couple of days, and might need to wait even longer for them to surface dry at least.  I'll have to go over later and sweep out the water on the slab- while the house wrap will protect the wood in the frame pretty well, no sense letting it wick up into the sill plate and the OSB from the inside.  A well-sealed frame on slab makes a great swimming pool actually, at least for small frogs and bugs... :(

No pictures of this fiasco to share- my camera was sitting on the picnic table ready for the next set of pictures on cutting the bent, and I refuse to use my wife's camera to document the state of the camera (and everything else) when I finally dug it out of the ashes... :'(

Well, at least it will be a little cooler today- going to try to put up posts for the back porch and maybe lift the truss support beams in place on top, although that will take some careful planning and preparation so they don't tumble off when I use the FEL to hoist them up... work goes on.  Pray for quick drying and a new camera. :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 26, 2011, 02:32:42 PM
Changed my mind on pictures of the fire aftermath.  The culprit was a patch of pine needles that we hadn't burned- decided to stop it just before the fire got to it and apparently the wind fanned up some coals near enough that sparks jumped and it took off...  Controlled burn is in the distance, uncontrolled in the foreground:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/burnt_hill.jpg)

Fire had just gotten to my tool storage area and melted my plastic bins- these work great for keeping the tools dry from dew and rain, but they are definitely not fireproof.  Second picture is of my chainsaw- an 18" stihl that has been my workhorse for larger trees and logs.  It was the one I could always count on starting whereas the other two I have (no name needed- no reason to criticize as it could just be my fault) sometimes start and end up in
the shop too often.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/melted_bins.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/burnt_tools.jpg)

First is picture of my poor camera- obviously not fireproof either... and neither is my F150, or at least the tail light cover, which had just started to melt when I got the hose on and quenched the fire- took some doing, too, with just a garden hose.  Found out half done that part had melted and was leaking about half the water, but at least it held long enough to get the fire out.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/melted_camera.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/remodeled_traillight.jpg)

Well, today is another day, kind of- rained early and is now pouring down (afternoon) with tornado warning just issued.  Hope we don't get to find out just how wind stable the frame is.   :-\  Anyway, had a few hours of clear and managed to get up the east and west porch frame assemblies, posts up and braced, then top piece cut, hand delivered and screwed in place with 8 or 12" fastwings. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/east_porch_frame.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/west_porch_frame.jpg)


At least I got something good done today if the wind doesn't blow the whole frame down.  Wife just reminded me we forgot to get construction insurance on the new house- must be my week for stupidity pills. :(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: fishpharmer on May 26, 2011, 06:03:33 PM
Could have been much worse.  DanG glad it wasn't the whole truck and house frame too.  The camera resembled some grilled chicken a member cooked burned. :o 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Norm on May 27, 2011, 08:18:26 AM
Sure glad it didn't make it to your frame LJ. Don't worry about a mistake or two like that, we all do it. You are just honest and brave enough to fess up to it, unlike me!  :D

BTW really enjoying your thread on this, thanks.  :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: thecfarm on May 27, 2011, 08:21:02 AM
Like I say,To late now. Sorry to hear of your troubles.
Like that field in the background.Do you own the land up to the field? I keep about an acre cleaned up across the garage. No view that way,but it sure does look good.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 27, 2011, 04:18:36 PM
Thanks, guys- appreciate the encouragement; I'll keep blogging this process as long as anyone is interested, and maybe a tad past that even.  Now that I've got the picture taking process down with java uploader, that part goes well, now if I only had a brain- no, wait, that was the tin man; I meant, if I only had a camera... :D

Our land goes way past what you can see in the picture, and the daughter and grandson will end up with maybe 8-10 acres.  Most is wooded- this place is mainly a tree farm- but the field you can just see is the best open land for cattle.  She's looking into Dexters- a friend of hers tells her you can raise 3-4 on just what you see, maybe a couple acres, and if we clear some more, add in goats and chickens.

Back to work on the front porch- got some more posts up and now I have to figure how to raise a 20' 6X6 beam 12' in the air- tried lifting it up, but I don't think I could climb the ladder with that load balanced on my upraised arms- such is human frailty that I have to deal with.   :-\    Son said he would help shortly- he just had his knee scraped out and is healing nicely, so much so that he's ready to go back to work after a week off.  Pictures later, if we're successful; if not, either no pictures or next week.   :o

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on May 27, 2011, 10:09:35 PM
The controlled burn looks great, the uncontrolled burn not so great.  A minor set-back.  Could have been much worse.  Any of us that have not had everything that we own smashed, sucked up, and blown away, including ourselves and our families, are truly lucky and blessed.  What has happened all across the South and Middle of our Country in the last few weeks sheds a new light on what can cause a bad day. 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 27, 2011, 10:48:36 PM
Thanks, WDH, makes me feel not so bad, although with the virus running through our family for the last week or so, maybe the reason for making so many mistakes all at once is right there in front of me: it's the infamous "stupid virus," that makes sane men (and women) crazy, turns good thoughts bad, and generally makes you do not-so-bright stuff...  >:(  and then again, maybe not.

In any event, between feeling punk most of the day, it was one of those "if you can't do big stuff, do small stuff" kind of day.  Oops, that was yesterday when it rained most of the day, so finally hooked up the stainless kitchen sink my son had liberated from a discard; he helped, too- actually, he did most of the work and I gophered.  So as to the "no big stuff" day: only managed to raise three posts and one beam, but dang it, they are heavy beasts!  Worked alone to cut and lift the posts up, hold them with one hand while checking level with the other and screwing in the braces with the other- oops, back to the "wish I had three arms" mode of working, which is why it took so long to get anything done.   :-\  First picture below shows the three posts up and the beam laying there waiting to be trimmed up.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beam_ready_to_go_up.jpg)

Since this was a 6X6 and I needed to cut the beam in half for the lap joint with the other beam making up the south support framework, I hauled out the bigger saws.  "Mama Bear" allows me to cut 3" deep or a little more, ideal for the end cut on the lap joint.  "Papa Bear" is a Makita which is way dangerous to handle, made even more so by the cleverly placed safety button that you have to press with one hand while you hold up the saw with the other and squeeze the trigger with the other- are we seeing a trend here?  Guess the safety button is mandated by legal concerns- laws or lawsuits- but it's a real PITA!  And once you get that blade up to rpm's, the saw twists and turns in directions you don't intend it to go- great demonstration of gyroscopic action, but not safe at all.  My point is: if you're considering one of these, think twice; hand-saws work pretty good...  :o  oh, and "Baby Bear" is a 7 1/4" Dewalt regular size circ-saw.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/the_three_saws.jpg)

The Big Bear does a nice job of cutting off or cutting along a 6X6.  Picture below is the beam and the cut-off.  Oh, and I notched the other end of the beam to clear the brace beam coming from the side of the frame- thus everything will be anchored together and all beams rest on top of posts.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beam_cut_for_lap_joint.jpg)

The first step in getting the beam up in the air (safely) is to use the FEL on the tractor.  Problem is, reach up is 3' short of the top of the posts (first picture below).  The safe solution is to muscle the beam carefully up onto the wheeled scaffolding 2nd floor (second picture) where it luckily rests only a few inches below where it needs to be on top of the posts (third picture).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beam_part_way_up.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beam_resting_on_scaffold.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beam_moving_onto_posts.jpg)

This worked great for two reasons: each upward step was easy, and the whole process allowed limbs and other body parts to NOT be under the beam and possible travel paths down to ground level.  No problems anyway, and I managed all of it alone except for moving the beam onto the posts- son came over and lifted and pushed from the scaffolding while I lifted and guided from on top a ladder.  Now you might ask, once you have it up there, then what?  Good question: I didn't use mortise and tenon to lock things together on this but went for the fast and easy method (read lazy and working mostly by myself).  I'd run across fastwing log screws at a timber framing meeting in Canada a while back and ordered some for whatever- turns out they're great for lots of things, from making log furniture to tying parts of house frames together.  Picture below shows the 10" screws I used here plus the extra long drill bit to pre-drill the holes (lots faster and makes sure they will go all the way in against huge friction) and my back-up impact driver.  Maybe you remember my number one driver, the one I laid the first section of 6" frame down on ever so carefully so it crushed it pretty good?  Well, let bygones be bygones...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/drill_screws_and_driver.jpg)

When all was said and done, small step by small step and with my son's help, the day's work was three posts and one 20' beam, all aligned, shimmed and with the beam as close as I could get it to even with the top of the top plates on the main house.  The trusses will sit on both the house walls and the porch frames, and will tie them all together and make a solid second floor and roof system.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/south_porch_frame_half.jpg)

Hope to feel better tomorrow so I can finish the south porch frame and half of the north porch frame.  Truss delivery was put on hold till next week and I still have a loft and truss support frame to build that will go inside the living room/kitchen area....  "One small step for man..." and while moon landings are not in anyone's immediate future, each step of building this house feels like a major success.  At least I'm not "sitting on $30 million of low bids..." waiting to blast off. :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on May 28, 2011, 08:02:23 AM
We frequently used the pig pole to handle posts, beams and other heavy items.  You can't see it in this picture but we attached a 1/4" chain from the end of the pole to the top of the bucket to take out some of the bending load on the pole. 



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13195/PigPole.JPG)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on May 28, 2011, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: fishpharmer on May 26, 2011, 06:03:33 PM
The camera resembled some grilled chicken a member cooked burned. :o 

Now I have been quietly following along, watching the progress and keeping my mouth shut, but really, I guess that James is right.  That camera is a pitiful sight also.   :D :D

You are doing a wonderful job Lj.  Your project is much larger than mine, but at least you have help.   ;)  Those beams really look good.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 28, 2011, 08:07:06 PM
Thanks, Lynn- yeah, it's a little bigger but you've built lots as well.

Thanks for the suggestion, Qweaver.  I've actually built one that I tried to use to lift 60' trusses up onto a 12' tall barn frame- almost worked but couldn't move them once we got them up there so ended up hiring a crane for half a day anyway.

Well, today's another day- started out quiet with fog covering most of the farm, nice to start work in the cool of the morning.  Feeling somewhat better today plus made my mistakes on the south porch frame yesterday, so today I managed to get up 3 more posts plus the top beam (with son's help) in 4 hours or so.  First picture below shows all the posts and top plate beams in place.  Second picture is an attempt to show that all the posts are vertical and line up pretty well- actually, you can't see the line of posts farther down the row but take my word for it, they line up pretty good.  Third picture is of the top edge of the top plate beams- 36' span with two beams spliced together in the middle and reasonable flat and flat to the rest of the house frame.  This is important for the trusses to line up and maintain vertical shape while sitting on four different bearing points.  They were designed to sit on two each, but with the shorter ones over the cathedral ceiling in the living room and over the loft above the kitchen, we needed two support points for each half, which is why it's so important to get the porch frames up, square, plumb and flat on top.   :)  I tried to show the last with the fourth picture, but again, it's hard to see when you're lining up across 32' of top plates and can't look at the view because you're hanging onto the beam with one hand and shooting the picture with the other; view is over the porch beam looking north across the rest of the frame.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/south_porch_frame_done.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/south_frame_lined_up.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/top_plate_line_up.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/flat_to_top_plates.jpg)

Also got a couple of the north (back) porch posts up- measly little eight footers. :D  It was actually fun handling these whereas with the 12' front porch posts, it was all work and no play... :(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/north_porch_posts_up.jpg)

Virus caught up with me about 5 or so, but the daughter (who's also feeling under the weather along with grandson who's been really sick with high fever and breathing difficulties) made up for her lack of help today by getting us all ribeyes at the best butcher shop in town- great way to finish the day, other than being on the forum, of course. :D

Lj

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on May 28, 2011, 09:53:16 PM
A nice posting on posts!  Those ribeyes had to make things a little better.  Ribeyes always make things better in my book.  I only got to have sirloin tonight, but I love sirloin too  ;D.  Enough of this food drivel and back to work  :D.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on May 29, 2011, 08:36:15 PM
Our house has a similar deck complete with posts and beams.  I thought and fretted for a solid week on how to get my top beam level with the house walls so the trusses would set good. :P  My top beams were 6" X 12" and were showing signs of wanting to bow as they dried.

One day the truss builder stopped by and said put the beam up after the trusses were in place. :o ??? :o  He explained when possible they cantilever the truss overhang off the house wall...cheaper to build.  In essence my deck beam only holds the truss from flying off in a wind storm.

I also had one of those little un-expected fires.  Tried to burn down a huge oak next to the house.  Don't forget to put the lids on those plastic tubs at night unless you want to fill them up with rainwater...don't ask how I know this. :-[  What wonderful memories. :)

I really like your house site.  Can't wait for the next installment.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on May 29, 2011, 09:28:07 PM
Larry, I did something similar when I built our deck.  I leveled the foundation on blocks, dug holes where I wanted the post, bolted the pipe legs hanging down into the holes and then poured concrete.  Yup, level.   ;)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 30, 2011, 05:27:42 AM
Thanks for the suggestion, Larry and MM- I've done it both ways and it depends on how your base is tied to the footing or foundation, or in this case, to the slab we poured under the porch for storage.  I'm using post plates that raise the post about an inch above the slab to create dry space and prevent wicking at the bottom of the post- sure, they're pressure treated but they can still rot.  To hold down the post plates, I put in anchor bolts in the wet concrete or in two cases (misjudged where the anchor bolt needed to be), drilled a half-inch hole in the slab, pounded in a concrete bolt and used that.  With either type bolt, I deliberately left as much showing above the bottom of the plate as I could and still be able to snug down the nut and washer on the threads.  With about half the anchor bolts, I had to use an oversize nut as spacer, then washer and nut tightened down as tight as I dared- didn't want to crack the slab and pull the anchor bolt out.

The point of having an inch or two or three of anchor bolt stick up is to hold the post bottom from sliding around.  The post bases are tightened down pretty good but when raising a post and trying to twist it into place between the sides of the post base, I'd often wiggle the base around some.  The hole I'd drilled in the bottom of the post would then slide down onto the exposed anchor bolt and stop lateral movement.  After re-squaring the base as needed and bracing in two directions to get each post plumb, I'd screw the base tight to the post with six deck screws- much more secure than nails which tend to work out over time.

So, when I built my son's house up the lane, we built the main house frame and put the trusses on top, then raised the posts and beams under the overhangs.  Working mostly alone meant that I had to be very creative on how to lift a beam up onto the post, slide it over under the trusses and wiggle it around on the posts to get everything lined up- a major PITA the way I was doing it, so if anyone has a better way, please let us know.  This method also means all posts have to be in place before the beam is positioned if you want the anchor bolt to be up into a hole in the bottom of the posts to keep them from moving around.  I ended up with lots of shims and shim boards- harder to get right and for some reason didn't seem as "right" as having the trusses flat on top of the beam.  Of course, with natural curves and imperfections (both in the wood and my own), I'll most likely still have to use shims on the pre-assembled porch frames- we'll see next weekend or the one after when we raise the trusses.

Another consideration is: when do you cut the posts to length so the beam sits on top at just the right height to form a flat surface with the rest of the frame?  On the south porch, I cut half the posts after carefully measuring from a string running the length of the porch slab.  Hard to measure accurately alone with no one to hold the other end, so I ended up with shims that ranged from a quarter inch to almost an inch- not good.  The other half I raised and cut in place.  Using scaffolding and a small chain saw, this worked a whole lot better than the other way, and the beam sat flat and square with no shims.  Balancing on scaffolding was bad enough, what with chips and sawdust going everywhere while I tried to keep the saw cutting on the line.  Doing this on top of a ladder would be dangerous and most likely not very accurate, although I've not tried it- skill level and courage gauge not high enough.

In my case, with the cathedral ceiling over the living area AND a post and beam support for the trusses at the top and the loft half way up in this area, I had to have as much support as possible- having a truss half sitting on just one wall frame and the beam of the post and beam didn't seem like enough (I always overbuild unless I can't), so I wanted the porch frames up for a two-point base support plus the upper support to tie it all together more securely.

Let me show you the truss designs and that may help explain what I'm talking about.  First snapshot below is of the trusses that will be over the first floor bath, laundry room, HVAC closet and master bedroom- about half the width of the house.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/full_truss.jpg)

Second picture shows a half-truss that will rest on wall frames at the bottom and the post and beam support at the top right- you can just see the "beam" the designer used (looks like a 2X6) but ours will be roughly 8X8.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/half_truss.jpg)

Of course, there's the other half of the truss which will be tied in at the top of the beam and the other half of the house frame.  Make sense?   ???

Back to work: today's jobs will be boring, boring from a description point of view: cut two more beams (for the back porch), and brace stock for the porches and the interior support post and beam bent; finish sanding the two interior beams (these are "live surface" if that makes sense- not cut on the sides or bottom to show better), stain them and cut to length.  Then the exciting part: moving them all into the frame to rest on 2X stock on the slab for cutting mortises and tenons.  I thought about using sawhorses but my "ponies" aren't sturdy enough and I don't want to spend any more time "getting ready."  

My target is to have the bent ready by Friday.  I'm hoping to rent an extendable forklift to use to raise the bent and get the trusses up on the frame.  In the process of lining up half a dozen helpers for the weekend so I need everything ready to go Friday night so we can do it all Saturday (at least what needs the forklift for) so I can give the forklift back: those babies are expensive!  This seems to be the only fast, safe and efficient way to get 'er done in a day.  Someday I'll build a system like has been described on the forum for lifting beams and bents into place, but not today.  Since this is a hybrid house (and that's stretching it- it's mostly stick built), and I have OSB as sheathing, I need to get it under roof as fast as possible.  With a pure timber frame structure, taking your time in the weather seems to work alright- big sticks don't seem to suffer as much (although I'm reading that in- haven't actually done a full size timber frame yet... :'(  ).

Wish us luck- weather forecast is clear till next Monday.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on May 30, 2011, 08:09:27 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on May 30, 2011, 05:27:42 AM
Wish us luck- weather forecast is clear till next Monday.Lj

Yup, I'm off to the Cabin for the rest of the week.  Gotta work while the sun is shining.   ;)

Good luck on yours Lj.   smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: jamesamd on May 30, 2011, 09:00:01 PM
Dang,LJ!
I can only type 5 words a Min ;)
Love them trusses!Theres BEEF in them bad boys!
Jim
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on May 31, 2011, 10:28:14 PM
Good luck and beware the heat there, MM- it was a killer here today and supposed to be worse tomorrow.

Thanks, Jim- trusses were designed by a professional at the truss manufacturing plant in Purvis- they do great work there and I've used their trusses in a barn and two houses I've built.

Today was the kickoff for hands-on timber framing, but what a miserable day for it.  Got started at 6 and by 8 it was already getting hot and sweaty, by 10 almost too hot and by 11:30, time for lunch and a long break.  First thing was to gather my tools: first picture is the chain (saw) mortiser which does a great job of hogging out wood for a mortise.  Second is the invaluable timber framing "square" that I learned about here on the forum, and learned how to use from Jim himself at a workshop.  Third is the new 12" hand planar which makes quick work of smoothing an 8" beam or post- not easy, but quick.  In fact, as I was shoving that monster down the length of one of the posts, I found out how much work it still involves and I was sweating like the proverbial Mississippi pig!   :-\  At least it gets the job done, and that's what I'm all about right now.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/mortiser.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/TF_square.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/12_inch_hand_planer.jpg)

For all the sweat that went out and liquid that went in, I hoped to have accomplished more by day's end, but I'd forgotten how slow and careful making large joints is.  I decided to use 3" top tenons on the posts for the top beam to rest on.  There will also be two braces (4X6?  3X6?) that will stiffen up the bent, although daughter has decided she doesn't want braces on the beam between the kitchen area and the living room- afraid of head-clunking and other assorted injuries from them: mine not to question why...  :-X

First picture shows the work of the chain mortiser: a rough opening 7" long and 3" wide MOL.  Lots of chisel work follows along with laying out the shoulder, hogging out most of the wood for it with a skill saw (actually, a DeWalt) followed by more chisel work and some belt sanding to smooth it out (second picture).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/rough_mortise_in_post.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/mortise_with_shoulder.jpg)

Tenon on top of this post required lots of hand sawing after the Papa Bear did his work as well as he could, and Mama Bear cut the 3" MOL shoulders to saw to...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/post_top_for_beam_to_set.jpg)

Also, I've taken to staining everything on the ground and finish sealing as much as possible before raising since it's so much easier and less messy that way.  Of course, if you use a dark stain like the dark walnut used here on the pine beams and posts (see picture below), you can't easily see pencil marks during layout.  Oh, well, everything is always a trade-off of some kind. :P  Touching up after the raising should be easy and fast.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/post_stained.jpg)


And like any work in progress, there's always more work than progress.  In this case, one of the posts began oozing lots and lots of pine resin after I stained it, making the stain run (pine sap turns out to be a great solvent) and making the log very, very sticky and hard to work with.  As I was cutting timbers for the rest of the back porch beams and braces all around, I pulled one log out of my stash that had a pronounced curve.  Used a forumite's suggestion on how to open it up- cut the "horns" off first, then flip and cut the bow out to relieve tension.  This worked so well and the interior was so nice, that I just made a new 8X8 post out of it.  It has a lot of "live surface" near what will be the top, but the butt of the log (what's left of it anyway) will be on the floor and is flat and smooth even before the planer gets used on it.  So this will be the new western post in this bent:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/replacement_post.jpg)

During the process of sawing out the beams and posts still needed, I had some log ends and side lumber available so I started making the 3X3" trim that will go around doors and windows.  These will be stained dark walnut also, and will contrast nicely with the white PVC in the window frames.  I used 2X stock for trim on my son's place and sometimes the siding would show a little or a little too much, either way not desirable, so this time I'm going with thicker stock.  Brought this load over with the replacement post- pretty wood for being around in debarked log form since Katrina, that evil dance partner we had when it was our turn at "dancing with the stars" and hurricanes... :o

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/side_lumber_for_siding_trim.jpg)

Things are going a lot slower than I'd hoped- about 2:30 I couldn't take the heat anymore, had another break for re-hydration and rest, then sawed as above.  At the rate I'm going, getting two or maybe three half-joints done per day means this week's raising ain't going to be.  We're postponing for a week, hoping to do a more careful and artistic job than if we tried to hurry up and get 'er done for this weekend coming.  At least, it's all coming together piece by piece, and oh, I forgot I have to make a "Commander" for fit up and assembly.  First task for tomorrow.

Can't keep my eyes open- hope the weather holds.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 01, 2011, 09:47:03 PM
Made some progress today but not as much as I'd have liked.  Oh, well, isn't that true most days? I lay in bed in the morning, just barely awake and excited about what I've got planned for the day, so I go over each part, estimate how much time it should take and what sequence to fit it into... then I slowly pull my aching body out of the bed, make my way to the coffee pot and start that brewing.  After a couple of cups and the news plus forum updates, maybe a little breakfast, I head out to get a jump on that mental list.... about an hour later, I'm already two hours behind and it's downhill from there.   :D

Did get the replacement post shaved off first thing- boy, that new 12" powered hand planer is fantastic- hard work to push down a sticky piece of timber, but the results are worth it (first picture below).  Then I cut a mortise in it for the loft support beam.  This time, as my memory of how to do these gradually comes back, I outlined it in pencil, sliced the surface fibers with a utility knife followed by a chisel, then mounted the chain mortiser in place and hogged away.  Placement for this was coming back to me- getting the chain just off the lines in both directions but not too far so you have a lot of chisel work.  After getting most of the wood out from one side, I flipped the post (see how easy that sounds??) and using just the chisel this time, worked out the half inch or so that I couldn't get with the moriser.  Then chiseled the sides clean and straight, remeasured everything to make sure it was in the right location from the sides and the foot of the beam, and finished clean up.  Was about to cut the shoulder housing (second picture) when I realized I needed to rough out the tenon that would go there so I'd get the housing right.  I'm using half or three-quarter round beams so we'll have a "live surface" showing from below to people looking up, so that means tracing the curved part (after marking and cutting the flat part that will sit in the housing), transferring that to the housing so that it will nicely fit the shape of the beam resting in it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/planed_vs_nonplaned.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/new_post_mortise.jpg)

Decided to try something different this time for the tenon- why not use the mortiser to cut away everything that isn't tenon?  Might be cleaner and in someways easier than using power plus hand saws.  Found out it definitely isn't faster, but then, I was trying to balance the beam on its rounded part and cut from the square surface- kept tipping over till I screwed two pieces of 2X into the sill plate I was working over- worked great.  First picture is of the mortiser set to start cutting, second shows work in progress, third is what I could do till the base wouldn't slide anymore to the side or I'd cut out the wrong part and couldn't clamp on what was left.  About half way through one side of the tenon, I realized I didn't have to cut all the wood, just that next to the outline of the tenon- duh!   :( :o

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/mortiser_for_tenons.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/mortiser_for_tenon_cutting.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/tenon_almost_done.jpg)

Did most of this work before 11 and then it really started to heat up- hit 97 today, and I literally can't work out in the blazing (appropriate word) sun at that temperature.  Did some measuring to check heights for back porch beam, and quit for the day.  Oh, and I hired a brother of my daughter-in-law to help with tedious but easy stuff- price was right as he's not legal for a real job and he did work hard up till 11:30 when he had to go get ready for a baseball game.  He helped move around a couple of bigger pieces of timber and then spent most of the morning staining siding which we stickered to dry some before putting up.  Last time, on my son's house (wife is sister to helper) I stained and immediately screwed the boards up- messy, messy but went fast.  Maybe this time will be less messy, although now I have to do all my chop-saw work with mostly dry boards.  Trade-offs again.   ::)

Had arranged for floor truss delivery after 1:30, so took the helper home, picked up my two chain-saws from the repair shop (luckily they hadn't been in the way of the fire like my wonderful but deceased Stihl), stopped at the insurance place to sign off on construction insurance (which I'd totally forgotten about till the fire- stupid pills again) and during the chasing around, the driver with the trusses calls an hour early and says he can't find the drive.  Well, hey, that's why I wanted to be there- the drive isn't one really, and meanders back into the woods for a few blocks before you finally come out at the knoll house site.  So I tell him I can't make it back for an hour, and give him directions- big mistake.  I hadn't moved the siding and beams I'd put where he needed to pull in to drop off the trusses, so instead of waiting for me, he tries to back around the curve, down and over the culvert and back up and out of the end-run of the drive.  Come to find out he's in a "learn by doing" program with the truss company, which means they'd just lost their two drivers and had hired two new guys within the last month... so he got to train on my curving drive (my daughter's actually), only he didn't: managed to back it right down into the mostly dry creek bed and half-off the side of the built-up drive over the culvert.  He says his mirror was blocked by branches, but there weren't any (as his boss pointed out when he got there) and he admitted that "he'd gotten pretty drunk last night..." which I guess he thought of as some kind of excuse.  One tow truck later, two hours of wasted time for his boss, his foreman, himself and me, and he finally gets the truck into the worksite, drops the trusses and skeddadles.   Found out (sadly) that he'll be back on Friday with 42' trusses balanced on the trailer to try again; guess we'll see.  His foreman walked over the site and commented that there was plenty of room, even outlined for him where to pull in, how to back up and where to drop the trusses.  Maybe he won't get drunk the night before... :-\

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/floor_trusses.jpg)

Supposed to be almost 100 F tomorrow, so I'll do what I can to clear a better path for him on the drive, although two really big flatbed delivery trucks and five concrete trucks had no problems.  Also need to get the posts finished up- have to make two braces for the top beam and burn holes for them in the beam and two posts, then sand and finish the two beams, and the new braces and new post.  Won't get them up this week end, though, unless a miracle happens and the wood loses about 3/4's it's weight.  I'm guessing at a ton or more total weight and I can't afford the extend-a-boom forklift for more than a day or weekend (they only charge for one day). 

Time to review brace layout and measurements...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on June 01, 2011, 10:05:47 PM
It was 101 degrees here today.  Brutal.  Good luck tomorrow and drink plenty of fluids. 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: fishpharmer on June 02, 2011, 06:35:57 AM
lj, could you share the specs on the hand planer, sure makes a nice finish.  Your daughters drive is curvy, yet has plenty of room.  Maybe the truss company driver was texting ? My daughter took out a fence post texting, when driving around the farm >:(.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 02, 2011, 04:51:51 PM
Well, James, my kids have taken out all kinds of things, from mailboxes and tail light assemblies to fenders and bumpers- one even rolled his car going only 35 mph according to witnesses- and that was all before texting!  Think what they could do now if they were teenagers again!  For that matter, I'm thinking what I would do now if I were a teenager again- scarey!   :o

Got a little work done this morning, mostly clean up and rearranging lumber and sawhorses, making plenty of space for the trusses in the morning.  Sure hope the driver lays off the sauce tonight and takes his time in the morning.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 02, 2011, 05:34:04 PM
Building a house generates plenty of interesting experiences.  I don't let the bad ones effect me much anymore and rejoice when I have a good one.

The guy that delivered our blocks got his 18 wheeler jack knifed around a 20" walnut and barked the tree good.  I felt sorry for the driver as there was a skiff of snow on our drive, and he was new.  I thought about telling him it was a $10,000 walnut tree but could see he was already stressed out enough.

Than the concrete driver who tried twice to roll his truck off in the hollar.  I didn't feel sorry about this guy and neither did his employer. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/concretetruck.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 02, 2011, 10:54:46 PM
Looking good with the mortise and tendons Lj.  I got in a couple of good days before getting side tracked, but it was hot...yeah.  I was stopping about every 30 minutes for a cool drink.  I have been well pleased with the powdered Gatoraide.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 03, 2011, 02:30:55 PM
Yeah!  The trusses made it, and after careful twisting and turning, the driver got them back to the worksite and unloaded.  Unfortunately, because of the heat, we only worked till 11:30 and didn't get any work done on loft/truss support other than cutting the brace stock at 4X6- only need two braces now so those should come along over the next few days assuming we don't all melt.  Temp today at 100, and predicted to hit that for the next several days; heat index is ranging around 105.

MM- I drink gaterade by the buckets but really don't like the powdered stuff.  I run through two cases a week, at the least, and that includes breaks for ice water and an occasional snack.  Sweating so much sure makes life interesting- change clothes several times a day, usually two showers a day, and lots of rest breaks.  Take care you don't overheat, Lynn.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on June 03, 2011, 04:26:32 PM
It is miserable hot here too at 100 degrees.  Dangerous, really.  You are going about things smart. 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 03, 2011, 09:45:20 PM
Fishpharmer- forgot to reply to your request on the planer: it's a 12" Makita, heavy and hard to push down a beam but what a job it does smoothing them out and making the surface flat.  There's only one of these on the market that I'm aware of so if you search for 12" Makita hand plane you should find it.  I can give more details if you want but here's a surprise: I bought mine from amazon for about $200 less than anywhere else and despite really negative comments about how they weren't in stock and deliver took months and months; mine arrived in three days, so go figure.

WDH: hot is not the word for it, maybe "brick oven" or "wall of flame when you go out the door" or "death air" maybe.  I don't think people up north really understand the pain our summers bring that compensate in some way for the brutal winters they have- trade-offs again.

Ok, here's the puzzle for tonight, and a free pine log to whoever gets it right.  Imagine that you poured the front porch slab 12" longer (or wider: distance from main house slab to edge of porch slab) than needed for the porch itself to reduce splash up on the posts and under-porch area.  Now imagine that the cement guys didn't know this and went ahead and put anchor bolts as they normally would: 2-3" from the outer edge of the slab.  Now imagine a builder in a hurry who didn't measure before setting posts and built a support wall 12' high like the one below only 12" too far out from the main building.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/south_porch_frame_done.jpg)

Now imagine that the contractor/builder decides to measure one more time before calling in volunteer help next weekend since the trusses have finally arrived and are ready to go up: the trusses, according to plans, are built so the outer ends rest on supports exactly 42' 4" apart.  Just for the sake of argument, the measurement from porch supports and equipment room outer wall at the back of the house to the outer edge of the 12' truss supports at the front of the house measure 43' 3".  Let's suppose that the wall of posts shown above is actually 9' from the edge of the main slab, not 8' as in plans. 

Here's the question: given the above, what would you do to remedy the situation?  The trusses are already built and delivered: not enough slack between outer rest points to allow 12" shift toward the front porch (actually not even an inch available because of the slanted overhang); also, this would throw off support points designed in at all the other walls.  Now suppose that the distance from back porch support beams to front of main house frame is exactly 34' 4" (just like it's supposed to be).  You have all the common tools (saw, crowbars, levels, tapes, and even the tractor with FEL).  Also, the beams are screwed to the posts with 12" log screws, the bases of the posts are screwed to the metal post supports with 6 3" screws each, and the bases are bolted down to the anchor bolts which you can't get at because the posts are in the way.  So, do you unscrew everything, take it all apart and start over?  Do you call the general contractor and tear him up one side and down the other till he agrees to eat the cost and fix the problem somehow? (oh, wait, I'm the GC)  Do you cut the overhang rafters off the trusses and let the water pour from the roof onto the top of the uncovered beam and down onto the porch proper when it rains?  Any other ideas?

Of course, this is all just a theoretical situation, a possibility that might come up someday in a friend's job so you want to be prepared to help when or if it occurs.  Any hypothetical solutions to this admittedly far-fetched hypothetical development?  Sleep on it, friends, and this will serve as your mid-term exam...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Holmes on June 03, 2011, 10:22:04 PM
You could cut the overhang rafters off, sister a 2 by on the bottom of the truss to whatever distance you want past the beams and reframe the last 6 to 8' of roof at a lesser pitch. I assume the trusses are supported by the house wall . Or you can ask yourself "what is the right thing to do"? Holmes
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: fishpharmer on June 04, 2011, 06:31:57 AM
lj, thanks for the details on the planer.  I wouldn't have asked if I didn't overlook the picture of it, my bad.

Go easy on the general contractor, he's overworked and underpaid :).

Now I will try to solve your puzzle from the perpective of a farmer with little building experience. :-[

How wide is the porch side to side?  I have a heavy duty 27 foot long steel flat truss that might be used to replace the whole wall.  I would give you a good deal on one. You would have to come up with some sort of I beam uprights for each end and maybe a couple for the middle.  Actually, I might have a couple of stout I beams for the ends too.  The steel could be later boxed with wood to stay with the timberframe theme.  That would save drilling new anchor bolt holes.  And you could use all the treated posts for your shop instead :).

On the other hand, if your going to disassemble the frame, you may as well just move it back. That sounds like a lot of work.

Or when (if?) the crane comes to raise the trusses. move the whole (intact) wall back a foot.  Brace the posts well, unscrew from the metal plates on the bottom and slide the whole wall back.  You could put the post base plates back with some big tapcon screws.  Just cut the beams off a foot where they attach to the house frame now.  Easy, right?  Most likely a lot more difficult then it sounds.

I have one more idea, but I will spare everyone for now.

Maybe you should just chew the general contractor out, after all. :D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 04, 2011, 06:35:16 AM
Can you sawsall off the anchor bolts?  Than un-screw the brackets and move the posts/beams back as a unit.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: SAWMILL BUDDY on June 04, 2011, 07:08:23 AM
I'm with Holmes on this one. ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 04, 2011, 07:43:37 AM
Well, we're getting close to what I'm (theoretically) actually doing but not to let the cat out of the bag early, any more ideas?  And who wants a bag full of cat anyway?

Thought of what Holmes suggested and almost went with that: hard to imagine taking down an already built wall or moving it lock, stock and barrel but those seem to be the best options.  In my experience (which obviously I don't learn much from or I'd know theoretically that to "measure twice and cut once" also applies to placement of large pieces of the structure such as walls and porch supports) altering an established plan has more follow-on problems than fixing the problem so you're back on track with the original.  If I took Holmes' suggestion, which I almost did, then I'd have a lot of new wood added to the rafter trusses.  This design has two dormers on this side of the house and that would raise the roof line below the dormers, possibly cutting off the bottom of the windows.  Also, we're planning on a metal roof which would mean another full set of cuts for the pieces that would go on the new roof slope.  And these are just the problems I can foresee- there are always about twice as many that actually turn up.  Here's an example: when I built my second house way back long time ago, one of the rafters was cut a little too short.  It was the third to last and we were trying to finish for the day so we just nailed it in that way: how much difference can that make, right?  Difference was this: that rafter now rested several inches in and lower at the base on the top plate, throwing off the plane of the ceiling inside the house.  Didn't realize this till after the roof was on (stupid- didn't think it through) so when I finally got inside to work, the tongue-and-groove ceiling had a massive looking bow at the single rafter that was the wrong length.  Would have been so easy to fix at the time but impossible to fix after the roof was on. 

Oh, and I have other examples of why it's vital to fix a mistake right now, right when you make it before you forget about it or get used to the idea and don't think through the consequences.  Plans are good for a reason for people like me- lots of you can go from a simple napkin or back of a piece of wood drawing to finished structure with no problems (at least that you'll admit to   :D  ) but I can't visualize that far in advance so I need a step-by-step sequence with a design I can see and go over again and again as I move the project forward.  I also need to use checklists more as Jim has suggested- the time it takes to think through a process and right down checkpoints helps in many ways, most important of which is to check off each step as you go so you don't forget any.  Pride makes us do things otherwise, though (speaking for me only now   :(  ) and when I think I have a given process down so that I don't need a checklist, why that's when I forget a key step or make a crucial mistake that I have to fix.  Some of us never learn...   ;)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Norm on June 04, 2011, 08:02:03 AM
Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it was 94° here yesterday. Of course it rained the night before so the humidity was just a tad high.  :D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 04, 2011, 09:39:37 AM
Remember the old saying Lj, "Carpenters cover up their mistakes.  Doctors bury theirs".   ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on June 04, 2011, 09:56:32 AM
I'd think I'd take it apart as best I could and move it to where it's suppose to be. And finish off as planned.....

I know that will be a great big job, but it seems like if you do something else it will affect/effect something else further on....
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on June 04, 2011, 11:53:23 AM
You have pink studs, so how would your daughter like a leaning wall? ;)

I'd like to see a pic of the truss design. (or did I miss it ? )
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 04, 2011, 01:40:13 PM
Lj showed some trusses on reply #133.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 04, 2011, 03:12:43 PM
I did show some of the truss designs- I have them all if you want them although there are about a dozen all told with the way they had to break them up for the cathedral ceiling area and keep them all to a certain height for trucking to the site (I have a bunch of cute little triangles about 2' tall that will go on top of the installed trusses to make the "point" at the top).

Only 94?  Shoot, we hit that by 11 and now it's 98 with a heat index of six million or so.

Jim: you're absolutely right- the answer to this little hypothetical exercise is that it's better to fix it right than fix your fixes later... so here goes.

First picture shows what someone might do (half done) if they found themselves in the hypothetical situation outlined earlier.  Two key points: short or long screws used throughout which makes it way easier to remove/repair/relocate if need be; and second, the whole bent (if we can call it that wrongly, but it's a descriptive name) was put up in two parts with the top beams held together in the middle by a lap joint with 6" log screws.  So, just back out the log screws there and at the end beam joints to the posts affixed to the exterior walls of the main house frame, unscrew from the post bases and everything's free to lift and move (or fall over if you didn't brace it or tie half to the bucket of a FEL with nylon straps).   BTW, that works great if you go ahead and screw on the 2X6 plates for the porch decking and railing to the posts- this stabilizes them by holding them all in alignment, helps support them when you lift with the FEL bucket and straps, and keeps them from falling forward or backward if you use a strap over the top beam tightened on the bucket hinge shaft.  Hope that was clear as I forgot to take a picture of this possible arrangement that someone might use sometime if the need arose.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/south_porch_half_fixed.jpg)

Just a guess, but doing half the set of posts and one end beam might take around 4 hours or so, depending on prep work and how much thinking and worrying time you put in getting ready.  Of course, once you've done half, the other half should go a little quicker, say in 4 hours or so....

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/south_porch_posts_fixed.jpg)

Now the nice thing about doing the same job twice (or actually fixing a possible mistake on the first time) is that your second setting of the post bases is done much more carefully and everything will line up even better.  Also, you might have an extra set of anchor bolts for the last foot of concrete slab that could be used to construct a really narrow garage for a lawnmower or a really long and narrow set of shelves just under your deck edge.   8)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/south_porch_fixed_bases.jpg)

Now for the good news: trusses made it in without a hitch.  Ok, so maybe there was a hitch or two, but who needs all those trees anyway?  And besides, now the driveway is just wide enough so that if we ever need another set of trusses delivered for some reason that is totally beyond my imagination right now, we're all set.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/trusses_arriving.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/trusses_on_ground.jpg)

Now if you look real close at the truss package laying there in all its glory and beauty, you might notice that only 8 or so are full length.  The rest are in pieces that will rest on outer and inner walls plus the upper level support that will be the top beam of the bent I'm about to get back to after all that hypothesizing about mis-measured post locations.  Thankfully, the manufacturer lined them up in the package just where they should be in the house- I had nightmares of figuring out which piece went with the other three or four pieces to make up a single support structure...   :o

So here's my present dilemma: I've got some siding that I could get up and see something accomplished quickly (I like that reward mechanism).  I've got supports in place for half the trusses and truss assemblies that I could go ahead and put up (maybe alone, maybe not) and see some roof line start to take place.  I could start another controlled burn... no, better leave that one alone.  Or I could do the interior bent which is the next step in a logical sequence leading to a well thought out and planned raising and truss installation.  Which shall I do?  ??? ???

Ok, I'm going to try and do this right: spend the next three or four days cutting joints and piecing big sticks together, trying to get my braces laid out and cut right (thanks to Jim for excellent descriptions of just how to do that but slow, slow careful work of the kind I am not good at keeping focus on), and doing the final assembly of the bent so it's ready to raise by next weekend.  Darn it- duty over fun, or maybe duty and slow fun over instant gratification!  Live and learn, live and learn- and boy am I learning a lot living this build.   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 04, 2011, 03:29:30 PM
Reply to Beenthere: Oh, and Beenthere: thanks for the suggestion on the "leaning wall" idea.  You don't know how hard I tried to rationalize this in my head but it sure would look funny.     :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 04, 2011, 08:22:13 PM
Quote from: ljmathias on June 04, 2011, 03:12:43 PM
Also, you might have an extra set of anchor bolts for the last foot of concrete slab that could be used to construct a really narrow garage for a lawnmower or a really long and narrow set of shelves just under your deck edge.   Lj

Or nice porch railing,  ;)  or just patch the holes and remember that we all make mistakes.    :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 05, 2011, 07:34:23 AM
Just for completeness, I'm giving a step-by-step process as I imagine it would be done for actually moving an already built and raised porch post and beam support framework.  In fact, as someone mentioned earlier, it now seems to me that building your porch AFTER the trusses are put up makes good sense- pluses and minuses to both ways of doing it, and my guess is, based now on having done it both ways now, is that it is easier putting up the posts after the fact, but then they play no role in actually supporting anything.

First step: measure very, very carefully where the new line of posts should be.  Mark on slab at both ends, then snap a line across the entire width to ensure that the new locations all line up perfectly.

Second, buy new base plates for half the wall.  Since you'll move half at a time and need plates for one half to drop into with no easy way I can see of reusing the old ones for this, drill anchor holes for this half, then use the pound in anchor bolts and tighten down the nuts.  Oh, and be sure to put the nuts and washers on, and set the base plate in place so that if you miss the bolt a little and damage the threads some, you have the nut below this so you can tighten.  Once this half of the structure is moved, unscrew the anchor bolt nuts, and use these base plates for the other half.

Third, screw on support boards.  You might use random placement or measure and place the deck support frame and railing support frame boards where they should be later for when you actually build the porch deck.  These boards help keep the spacing of the posts secure and keep the posts from dropping off the top beam.  One advantage of using the 12" log screws drilled and screwed from on top of the top beam down into the posts is that they provide enough strength to not have the posts drop off when you lift the whole thing- only the middle two posts are actually secured to the FEL as below for lifting.

Strap the FEL bucket to the frame (or vice versa, however you look at it) and gently put enough pressure upward to support the framework from falling in or out.  Use a strap up over the top beam and back to the bucket hinge rod to help with this.  Do not put inward pressure on the posts, lift from the support boards only- otherwise, you'll squeeze the middle posts together, maybe break them off (don't ask but it didn't happen here) and at least make it difficult to re-align in the new location.

Fifth, unscrew posts from base plates.  Nailed in fasteners would make this slow and tedious.

Sixth and seventh, whichever order you prefer, unscrew the end beam log screws from the post screwed to the building and shorten it enough to allow moving the assembly into place at the right position.  If you measure carefully, the posts will be perpendicular after the move with no adjustments needed.

Eighth, put 2X and 1X stock next to and around the new bases so that the posts won't bend them when lowered into place.  As you lift and move the assembly, you won't have much play with the FEL in moving back and forth or right and left.  Just set them down near where they should be but still secured to the FEL, then sledge hammer them into place so they drop into the new bases without bending the base uprights.

Screw everything back together for this half, and repeat for the other half.  Oh, and don't lift the first half (with the lower part of the lap joint that the other half top beam will rest on) until you move the assembly forward enough to clear the other half of the lap joint- hope that was clear.

All in all, this method was theoretically the most straightforward why to fix a hypothetical mistake that you might face someday.  I know I would never be so foolish and non-careful as to do this, but then again, we all have bad days... :-\

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 05, 2011, 08:50:23 AM
You made a good day out of a bad problem.   smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 05, 2011, 12:49:24 PM
Thanks, MM- hope and pray you don't have any similar mistakes to fix... :) speaking hypothetically, of course.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 05, 2011, 01:09:06 PM
One of the tests for a builder is how they handle problems...theoretical problems in your case.  I think you did great. 8) 8)

My big test was when the water supply line, distribution lines, and waste line managed to come through the slab a foot from there proper position. :o
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 05, 2011, 03:04:38 PM
So, Larry, don't make us ask (although I guess you did): what did you do to fix it?

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 05, 2011, 07:18:31 PM
According to plan the plumbing was to come up in what I call a wet wall with an access panel.  Due to my mis-measurement they were sitting a foot from the intended wall in the utility room/pantry.  I could have relocated the wall as it wasn't framed yet, but that would have meant resizing two bathrooms and three bedrooms.  After thinking about a week I remembered Kathy wanting a washer and dryer that sits up off the floor about 12" on pedestals.  Instead of a pedestal I built a laminate covered plywood bench.  The plumbing resides in there with a hatch for access under the washing machine.

Like you mentioned one small change effects other matters.  The hot water heater was supposed to fit where the dryer was relocated.  I ended up with a short fat one above the dryer.  Adding to the tight squeeze the furnace we bought fit perfect in its allocated space but we added some super duper filter system for my allergies.  Of course the filter required extra room for access.

I think everything is positioned well now.  Still have a ways to go before its completed.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 05, 2011, 09:36:43 PM
Way to go, Larry- like MM said, carpenters cover up their mistakes (I prefer to say "fix them") but doctors bury theirs.  I'm not ready to bury any of my projects yet- burn them maybe, but not on purpose...  :D

Back to the bent in progress: spent the morning reading up on brace layout and cutting, and going over the truss placement and support locations needed.  Thought I might do a little planning and thinking before I actually dive into that huge job- I know, it's unAmerican to plan something, but call me a throwback to earlier times.   ;D

Tried to do some work about 1 or so but it was just peaking out at over a 100 F so my mind said "yes" but my body said "Heck no!" and came back into the cool to read some more on braces.  Had dinner with the kids and then tackled the two braces I need for this support bent.  Decided to use 4X6 stock since that seems to be the standard, even for 8X8 posts and beams.  Not sure it will look right, but got to start somewhere; next time I may try 6X6 or 6X8 and see how that works and looks- will certainly be a lot harder to cut and handle making the braces and doing fit up, but we all love a challenge.   ???

Picture below is of the two braces I laid out and cut in about 2 hours (sorry about the blur, I was getting tired and couldn't see real well what I was taking a picture of...).  Seem to be pretty exact, and I measured all parts at least twice, some three times so I'd be sure I had it right.  These are my first real building braces, although I've made a couple for some sawhorses and a few for a frame-in-progress (really, really slow progress) that was started under Jim's guidance a few years back (I did say slow   ;)  ). 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/two_braces.jpg)

Tools used to make these include a pencil and speed triangle, and the four items pictured below- regular size skill saw, carpenter's square, hand saw, and of course, Papa Bear saw that weighs a ton and scares me every time I push the button and pull the trigger to start a cut.  Wish they could make a saw with this big a blade but a lot less weight- it's cumbersome to lift and hold in place, hard to see the alignment slot on the front while lining up the blade on the edge to start the cut, and just a general pain to use.  But like a lot of tools that are a pain to use, it does what it does better and faster than anything else I can think of, so I use it carefully.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/brace_tools.jpg)

Tomorrow morning I'll smooth the braces and hog out the mortises, smooth those out and make sure the tenons fit, then start finish planing and sanding.  Might be able to do fit up in the evening or Tuesday morning- good timing since I'm lining up "volunteers" for the bent raising and truss placement for the weekend.  Still have to finish building the six inch exterior wall on the main slab and the last half of the northern porch support.  Should be able to get this done in time, and then away we go!   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 06, 2011, 10:22:59 PM
Ok, actually did a fair amount of what I'd planned for today although we only worked till 11 or so and then a couple hours later in the afternoon- didn't quite hit a hundred today but still dang hot and I'm out of gaterade.  Used chisels (1" and 2") to smooth out the braces- ends are shown below.  I deliberately picked brace stock that had some character to it- using SYP for the braces as well as the posts and beams, and these two braces have a number of heartwood streaks and knot blemishes that make them pretty neat after they're all cleaned up.  Guess I should have planed them before I cut the tenons and shoulders, but I had the extra to cut back to the full 4" and 6" so it worked out well.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/two_brace_ends.jpg)

Did get one brace pocket done, but what a pain!  Had to keep trimming back and chiseling out for several reasons, most important of which is that I forgot to add the half-inch housing to the depth of the chain mortiser when I hogged out most of the wood.  That meant I had to chisel it out the slow way, which worked fine anyhow.  Second problem was the angle and placement of the shoulder slant at the upper end of the pocket.  I had gathered I needed this to be at almost 8" from the base for this 45 degree brace, but turned out to be at 10" and I don't know where the discrepancy came from.  Now that I've got one done right, I'll get the other three in the morning (I hope   :o ).  You'll notice a little tear-out on the upper and lower edges of the pocket- these are from the chain mortiser, and I didn't realize it but the chain had gotten a little loose (just like any chain saw chain) and it would "kick" a little or snag sometimes.  After I tightened it up and oiled it, this problem went away.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/brace_pocket_finished.jpg)

Finished clean-up work on the other mortise and housing for the loft beam.  This is on the new post I mentioned to replace the one that was "leaking" so bad.  Turned out pretty good and I think I've got the dimensions pretty close on the tenons and mortises for the two joints that will support this beam, but fit up is not practical at this stage.  Each of the major sticks in this bent weighs in at several hundred pounds, so manhandling them alone is impossible and even with daughter and grandson to help today, it's a lot of weight to wrestle.  One of the half-rounded beams almost rolled off the support scrap log onto a foot-- way too easy for these things to get away from you.  Once I have all the joints cut and stain applied, we'll position them inside the main house slab and try fitting them all together.  Worst case is we do this on Friday night or Saturday morning coming up when I'll have some additional help, just before we put up the trusses.  One thing that I didn't fully realize before starting this project was how much more difficult it is working with partially rounded timbers.  Square timbers are so much easier to position and cut than the beams I'm using here.  Trying to mark and position a saw (Papa Bear) in a stable orientation on a rounded edge for a cross cut or end cut is really hard, made even worse by the weight and awkwardness of this big gyroscope.  I hate to admit it (not really) but the last picture below shows trim work that I did with a little electric chain saw.  It was the wrong chain for cutting from the end of a log- jumped and snagged too much- and it was difficult to line up and keep aligned- luckily the daughter helped with that.  It would have been impossible, though, with any of the circular saws without a whole lot of re-positioning and lock-down effort.  It's also really hard to draw straight lines in either direction on round wood.  I took a class at a timber frame conference on working round timbers, but that was done with perfectly uniform round sticks- these pieces aren't, on purpose for the look.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/loft_beam_housing.jpg)

Finished sizing and smoothing the two tenons on the loft beam and it should be ready to go after sanding and staining and fit-up:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/loft_beam_tenon.jpg)

Also got the top support beam cut to length and ends trimmed to 8" for carving out the mortises for sitting on top of the two posts with through tenons.  Or do I have that backward: through mortises for the full width (length?) tenons?  Need to smooth both ends to correct thickness, then cut the two mortises tomorrow.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/top_beam_in_prep.jpg)

If I get all the work done planned for tomorrow, Wednesday should be fit-up and trim to get 'er right.  Then drill peg holes.  I'd like to use draw bores but I'm not sure how easy it will be to repeatedly put all the tenons where they belong, mark them, and pull them for drilling.  This wood is very dry and shouldn't shrink at all now.  I would like the additional draw down of slightly offset holes, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort... guess it will depend on what help I have tomorrow and Wednesday and how hot it gets.   :(  I'd love to say I'll just do it the right way, but time and energy come into play: we're raising this weekend no matter what as I've got to get those trusses off the ground before it rains.  Time waits for no man- a famous saying said by someone famous, I'm sure    ???  ; termites wait for no man  or woman either.

Lj

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 09, 2011, 07:29:08 AM
Despite the rain yesterday afternoon, which actually gave us a nice siesta break and cooled things off some, we managed to make visible progress.  Invisible progress is the kind where you do lots of stuff, measure and cut joints and generally keep things moving along but you can't really see anything coming together.  So, two main things in progress yesterday- making brace pockets and starting the fit up and trim process.

Making brace pockets isn't all that hard on all-square timbers, but on partially round ones, it's a royal pain (not to offend any UK or Canadian members).  Had to do all kinds of tricky measuring- using an upright square as an alignment tool, measuring from the one flat part of the beam three different ways to find the pocket location, running a string from one end to the other to make sure the end beam mortises and the brace pockets all line up... spent way to much time getting ready, and then even more actually cutting them.  Did the pockets in the posts (mostly square) pretty easily- using 42" for the legs of the triangle with brace lengths of 59 13/32" or as close as I could get to that.  While I could use the chain mortiser on the square posts, I couldn't get it to clamp onto the rounded parts of the beams I was working on, so had to resort to the manual chain mortiser in the picture below.  I "eyeballed" this to vertical and cut down about what I thought was the right depth into the pocket (second picture)- way too shallow on the first one, much closer on the second.  Third picture- lots of chisel work to make the shoulder housing and the tongue mortise... arms ached after each one and had to stop and sharpen the chisel during this process I was cutting out so much wood.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/manual_mortiser.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beginng_brace_pocket.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/brace_pocket_in_progress.jpg)

When all was said and done, after roughly 7 hours of mostly hand work, both braces fit pretty well and lined up well with each other and the mortises in the beam ends- next step for these will be today's second installment on fit up.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/both_braces_fit_to_top_beam.jpg)

Speaking of fit up, while it was sprinkling yesterday, daughter and I managed to man (or woman) handle the two posts into the main frame slab, line them up on blocks and start the fit up process (first two pictures).  Of course, you always have to trim some (third picture) but I was amazed at how well things came together (fourth picture).  Only one joint actually fit up but today we do the rest, I hope- got some help coming at 8 or so and we should be able to man and boy and woman handle the timbers around well enough.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/loft_beam_fitting_to_post.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/moving_beam_into_post.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/trimming_during_fit_up.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/beam_fit_to_post.jpg)

Off to work, more later... Lord willing and the creek don't rise (meaning, hope it doesn't rain today).

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on June 09, 2011, 09:46:42 AM
looking awesome LJ.  I heard of the mortiser being used to do shoulders as well ;)
The round/waney stuff might be harder to cut, but man does it ever look wicked once it's all put together and fitting tight 8)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 10, 2011, 05:35:41 AM
Thanks, frwinks, and you're right on the round wood- pain to do but boy does it look great.  Today is the day for full fit up of the bent so we can do final trim and be ready to raise this evening or in the morning.  Not enough help so I've figured out how to use the FEL on the tractor to gently guide the top beam onto the posts and braces- daughter and grandson will help with that so hopefully we'll get this finished, stain the pieces that need it and peg everything together.

Yesterday was one of those boring but necessary days.  Well, on the other hand, any day that you see progress is not really all that boring except in the doing of it...   ;)  We did general area clean up to get ready for the crew coming in on Saturday- don't need a bunch of trash pieces of wood and stuff that I've gotten used to walking around and over causing any safety problems.  Also did three of the four "last" jobs to be ready for the bent raising and truss installation: stick framing the interior and exterior walls.  First picture below shows (hard to see but it is there) the small section of framing ready to go in place that includes the door opening and support for the stairs.  This will be right next to the east post of the bent and we need room to move the bent around as we place it so I couldn't do this section till after.  Same applies to the last section of exterior wall for the north side of the main house frame (second picture, ready to move into place).  Not seen is the door assembly for the exterior back door- not much to look at really, just a header and legs.  The telescopic forklift is supposed to be delivered today, and I need access to first raise the bent and then move it into final location to secure it to the west wall.  The bent will be solid enough that having just one side tightly secured should keep it in place as we load in trusses around and onto it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/under_stairs_door_frame.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/last_of_the_north_wall.jpg)

I really can't believe we're actually right on schedule despite the extended siesta and rain breaks we've had over the last week.  Heat plus humidity have been real hard to work through, and two or three changes of clothes plus a couple showers per day add to the time out breaks.  Temperature is a supposed to be a little lower next two days (only 94) but there's a 30% chance of thunderstorms both days, and walking on wet wood to move trusses in is not the best for safety.  Lightening could also be a factor- maybe you all heard about the strike at Camp Shelby just a few miles from here that shocked 70 some soldiers, injuring a few enough to require hospital treatment?  We really, really don't want that happening on Saturday!   >:(

Hope to have pictures of a fully assembled and stained bent by the end of the day- time to get ready.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 10, 2011, 07:27:59 AM
You have completed a lot of intricate work and it really looks good.  I'll be working on my project for the next couple of days and out of touch, but anyway, good luck with your beam/timber raising.   :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 10, 2011, 10:05:28 PM
Hope you're careful up there, MM; when you get back you can tell us all about it, with pictures, of course.   ;D

Well, today was the day when we had to get the bent done, and surprise, surprise: we did it!  "I love it when a plan comes together,"  said by who on what ancient TV show?  We started out trying to finish up the finish work on the beams and posts- Jessie sanding and staining while I worked on laying out the positions for the trusses we'll put up tomorrow- used black magic marker so in case it rains, they shouldn't get washed away.  Layout for the trusses plus engineered floor joists is complicated, with the joists having to shift a little one way or the other sometimes because they're on 16" centers and the trusses on 2' centers.  Every few feet, they fall on the same place and you know what they say about two objects occupying the same space at the same time?  Yeah, well, me neither...  :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/Jessie_sanding.jpg)

Once she had the staining done, we went ahead and started fit up.  We could slide and manhandle most of the timbers but the top beam was just too big and heavy, so we fashioned a sling under the FEL bucket to lift that piece into place.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/FEL_alignment_tool.jpg)

Worked great, too- with just a little twist of the cant hook, it would  rotate into position for sliding on the through tenons on top of the two posts.  Had to carve one of those done a bit, and then when we added the two braces, things almost fit- almost.  Somehow I'd managed to make the brace pockets not quite far enough "north" of line between the two corner points of alignment- forgot Jim's name for these.  Upshot was, I could drive one side down to have the beam flat to the top of the post but this raised the other side.  After going back and forth a couple times like a three stooges caper, I realized I'd have to pull the beam up enough to unseat the braces and do some trimming.  Ended up fitting them together three times before I got the pockets carved right, but then things came together great... except for the trimming I had to do on the loft support beam with though tenons that were just a little bit too wide.  I blame it on the rain that swelled the wood a mite, but who knows, coulda been me... :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/first_fit_up.jpg)

Once we got everything tight (enough), it was time to lock it all together, and I have to admit I cheated some here.  I just couldn't muster the energy to pull everything apart, drill the peg holes through the mortises, put it all back together, mark the tenons, pull it apart, drill the tenons just a little bit shy of the mark, and then put it all back together for the last time.  Instead, I used 12" log screws to pull the joints tight- pre-drill almost to the depth of the screws then use an impact driver to pound them in and pull the pieces tight against each other.  THEN I drilled holes for pegs and pounded those in... using the tool set below: a "hole hog" with 1" auger bit, manufactured pegs (haven't tried making them myself yet) and a good old hammer to drive them in.  Worked slick and the whole thing pegged up tight.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/hole_hog_and_peg_tools.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/pegs_in_east_joints.jpg)

Then the real fun began, if you count being all puckered up for an hour or so while you lift a ton or so of wood into the air above your frame and pray nothing bad happens till you get it fixed and braced in place!  The telescopic forklift arrived about 4 but we didn't get the frame all tightened up and pegged until about 6.  Pictures below are of me very carefully moving the forklift into position, the frame hanging in mid-air as I slowly move it into position against the exterior wall frame trying real hard not to knock it over, and then after setting it down, using a come-along strap to pull it about an inch upright before I braced and screwed it to the wall.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/forklift_moving_into_lift.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/entire_bent_lifted.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3501/Jessie_holding_up_entire_bent.jpg)

Daughter Jessie wanted one picture for Mom to show how she single-handedly pushed the bent up into place and held it there while I fixed it in place... oh, well, at least she's excited about the progress.  By 8 we had put away tools, moved the forklift away from the frame and made it inside for supper, tired but still wound-up from the excitement.  To paraphrase a sail racing observation my son quoted for me, "raising a bent is long periods of tedious boredom punctuated by moments of shear terror."  All said and done, it was a great day.  8) 8)   Tomorrow, the trusses....

Lj


Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on June 10, 2011, 11:19:25 PM
Amazing progress!  You must be very pleased.  Maybe you will sleep well tonight with that success. 

BTW,  when you must have not been looking, someone took a chisel to that Woodmizer shirt and opened up a joint just below you armpit.  Maybe it was the Wood Sprites.  Who knows ???.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 11, 2011, 05:05:14 AM
Well, WDH, I did sleep pretty good, like a rock as the saying goes, but woke up early when I started dreaming trusses...  :D  And that's my favorite Woodmizer t-shirt because it's the only one I have.  Wife keeps wanting to throw it away but I keep rescuing it from the trash.  It's about on its last legs, though.   :(

Couple cups of coffee and I'm off to today's projects.  Now that the bent is up, I can bring the exterior wall in and put it on its anchor bolts, lock it to the west wall, put the door frame in and add the top sill plate.  Then stand posts for the north porch wall, cut those to height and place the last two porch beams in place.  Finally, stand the interior stairway closet door (where Harry will sleep) next to the new bent post, tie that down with bullet-driven nails into the concrete.  Then the trusses can start going on.  Weather is chancy on thunderstorms and it's supposed to hit 95 today so we'll try to finish as much as we can early- at least we should have a window of opportunity if any of the volunteer help shows up; if not, it's going to be a long, slow day, but that's alright- steps to do now are deliberate ones, best done carefully and accurately so that 4X8 sheets of sheathing line up right on the truss joists.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 11, 2011, 09:47:19 PM
Now that we have the support bent in place, it's time to use the telescopic forklift to get the biggest trusses and floor joists up and in place.  This is not as easy as it might sound- despite the fact that I got the smaller of the two offered by the rental company, this is still a honking big piece of equipment, worth it for the reach although we never got anywhere near the 3 ton lift limit.  Before we could actually dive into the trusses, though, we had the catch-up jobs to do to get the frame finished and the porch support wall done.  For the porch, we needed three more posts stained, which daughter did (first picture) while I put in the stairwell door frame and (with help) got the last section of the north exterior wall anchored in place, sheathed and covered with house wrap.  Son Josh was a major help in these efforts, as well in running the forklift with expertise and helping with other chores.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/staining_last_three_posts.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/stairway_closet_door_ready.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/last_of_north_wall_framed.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/north_wall_sheathed.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/son_and_nail_gun.jpg)

Two hours given over to getting ready for the trusses, and then we had to get the trusses themselves ready.  They were delivered in a wrapped and nailed together package with, you guessed it, the ones that needed to go up first sitting at the bottom of the stack.  This meant an hour of lifting and sorting the pieces on top till we finally got down to the ones we needed.  Picture below shows the helpers and me doing this while baby Lila appears totally disinterested- and well she should be, for this is her second birthday and we had to plan for the party in the evening amidst everything else (and she loved it, with lots of "lello" stuff, yellow being her new favorite color). 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/me_and_helpers_sorting.jpg)


We pulled them over to a more convenient location for access with the monster forklift, and hoisted the first two up onto the bare frame.  Because of the room needed to move the trusses into place with the forklift, we decided to start in the middle rather than on one end, like we usually do.  This was harder in many ways, but we managed to get two upright braces nailed to the stairwell wall to hold the first two in place while we fussed around getting them plumb and square.  I'd pre-marked two top plates so lining up bases was not too bad, except for the bows and twists that we had to cut braces for to keep things straight.  Luckily, the first two main trusses were bailed together to stabilize the wall next to the stairwell on the second floor.  Then we ran into a problem on the third truss: we could put spacers in at the bases to keep everything lined up, but needed to do the same on the slopes and tops which we couldn't reach safely (or not at all for those of us who are height challenged).  Luckily, we could build a minimal man-lift for the forks (with a rope that I made SIL use despite his protests) that put him at just the right location to do this.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/man_lift_action.jpg)

By three pm, after working since 6 am with a half hour lunch break, we were all wasted, and SIL (I found out later) was on the verge of heat exhaustion with dizziness and lack of thirst- bad signs, but we quit soon enough and his thirst came back fast enough that he recovered pretty well during the birthday party.  Asking for help (free of course) is always a chancy thing.  We'd lined up a couple of experienced carpenters who wanted to help and then couldn't at the last minute.  We'd lined up other help that ended up not showing at all.  Best of all were family and a couple of last minute call-ins that came to provide the necessary number of hands to move and stabilize 42' long trusses while we very, very carefully used the forklift to extend and lift them close to where they needed to be.  All in all, only five long trusses got put up today, but given the pre-work needed and the lack of skilled expertise of all of us, not a bad day at all.  And at least we made some progress...   :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/five_trusses_braced.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/first_five_main_trusses_up.jpg)


Got to get the last four long trusses up tomorrow after church- on top if not braced up and in the right place- plus the four 28' engineered floor joists for the second floor bedrooms: the forklift goes back early Monday morning.  The rest of the trusses and floor joists we should be able to get up and in place with the FEL and hands-on muscle power (if we don't all collapse from the heat and humidity first- I must have drank 8 or 10 gaterades today plus water in between).

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 12, 2011, 10:01:40 PM
Skipped church today- pastor is at annual conference and the guest speaker didn't sound to good (turns out I was wrong on that) plus had to use the forklift to finish up what it could do before it goes back tomorrow.  Did a lot of "fill in the blanks" type work first, though- checking alignment of the trusses we put up yesterday and then screwing them to the top plates with 6" log screws.  Incredible how strong these things are although without pre-drilling the holes, they just won't go into this resinous pine I cut and the fir that the trusses are made of... so it takes some time but boy, does it tighten everything up.   :)

Then did stuff I could do alone- daughter did her Sunday good deed driving a friends mother to visit him, and then finishing up clothes washing and helping son pack for scout camp.  Boy, is he excited but a little anxious also, since this is his first time to be away for so long.  His mom, on the other hand, claims it will be a great vacation for her, but my guess is she misses him already.   :'(  So what stuff is easy alone in this heat?  Not much actually, but I did get some floor joists up (first picture) and locked in place with log screws.  These will butt up to the stair header for the stringers (or vice versa, depending which direction you're looking) so they need to be held fast and solid.  Then decided to try moving the last four long trusses into place by myself (second picture).  Took it slow and careful as I didn't have any "eyes" up there to tell me where they were as I moved them up and in.  That means I ended up jumping down, climbing a ladder or scaffolding, getting a fix on progress, climbing down and moving everything a little closer to where it should be.  Do this a few times, and your legs will ache by the end of the day...  :(  along with your back, your arms, your neck and your brain, although what use the brain was today I couldn't tell.  ???

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/floor_joists_abutting_stairwell.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/last_long_trusses_in_transit.jpg)

So after trying for an hour or so, I finally just left them hanging there till I could get some help, which happened late in the day, around 5:30 or so.  Son Josh came over with his two boys, and they played and scrambled around on the other side of the house from where we were working- dangerous place, new house construction site.  When Josh actually moved the forklift, he had both boys in the cab with him so he would know where they were.  Lost a pup on Thursday to the garbage truck- he was a youngster (daughter's "rescued" pup) and was just starting to show real growth and fill in after being not treated to kindly before we got him.  Made us all sad and very mindful of how easy it is to end a life or maim a young body- good lesson but sad way to learn it.

So when he and the boys left an hour later, the last four trusses were up and blocked and braced (picture below).  I'll to final alignment with a string tomorrow and screw them down tight.  Need to get more substantial bracing up as well, so we'll need some of the longer 2X4's I'd cut that have been drying for a little while- not dry enough for careful work but plenty good for hidden braces.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/long_trusses_done.jpg)

You might notice the sizable gap between the two sets of long trusses- that's on purpose, and was designed in by the engineer to accommodate the two- and three-piece truss sets that will make up the dormers.  There's an identical gap over the vaulted ceiling in the living room, but the trusses for that area are even more complicated because of a longer span without support.  Totally forgot to build the support walls that will house the dormer windows- not very wide or tall, but without them, there's nothing to hold up the trusses so we couldn't even start putting those in.  First job for tomorrow will be to build one of those.

Final job for the forklift before I sent it home was to place the 12 14' floor joists that will make up the loft floor and kitchen ceiling- could be done by hand but these things are just heavy enough and awkward enough that bruised and broken were in the forecast- hooked all of them with the forks. lifted them up and into the kitchen area, only to discover that they were backward- should have been turned 180 degrees to put a small pocket they each have all on the interior for final alignment with a clean 2X4 or two.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3530/last_floor_joists_up.jpg)

It was too much trouble and too hard to back and shift that monster forklift to turn the joists around on the ground, so I left them up there and put some planking in place to walk on.  Scared me some- don't like being even 8' up with possibility of a fall, which was highly likely since I was manhandling the darn things around up there to get them all pointed in the right direction. :o  Quit with three left- getting dark and muscles wouldn't work for me any more- at least some parts of the body have enough sense to know when to quit and go get supper.... although I was too tired to eat much, just a shower and snack, and a delicious oatmeal cookie made fresh yesterday for the helpers.  Since there weren't as many as we'd expected, that meant leftovers, always a good thing.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 13, 2011, 10:08:25 PM
Looking good Lj.  Who says us elderly folks can't work in HOT weather.  It hit 102° at my place today.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 14, 2011, 05:22:21 AM
I think the Mother Nature this year is shooting at 100- missing some days, going over others; not a very good shot, all told, but we all love her anyways...   :)  I cheat, though- although I've done a couple days straight through, I also have other stuff to take care of so between 12 and 4 or so, I work in the shade or inside, then hit it again till dark.  Yesterday was one of those days, however, where I did a lot of detail stuff (nailing or screwing down trusses and floor joists, laying out positions for today's work, putting in braces and making everything stand up square and parallel).  Today we're finishing up alignment and bracing on the long trusses, putting in some more short, two piece trusses and finishing the floor joists- I really like some place to stand on wider then a 2X4, so we'll throw some OSB up to walk on without all that nervous tension that saps your (my) energy and makes me much less productive.  I've also got to find my air-hose splitter so we can have a nail gun at both sides of the house- getting old dropping one down, walking it over and climbing up on the other end to nail up a brace or two, and then carry it back to the other side.  Wasting a lot of time with that kind of up-and-down tool moving but I've learned from one bad experience how important it is to get trusses right now so sheathing fits right and tight- I hate having to put up "nailers" when one is out of alignment by an inch.  Bout time to go start sweating again... :-\

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 14, 2011, 07:54:04 AM
And what would we ever do without nail guns?  I don't even want to remember.

Stay cool Lj.  I'm off today.    ;)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on June 14, 2011, 08:03:30 AM
We moved to south Texas in 1977 and I've spent most of those 30+ summers sweating over welding jobs of one kind or another.  That heat is one of the main reasons that we decided to build the cabin in West Virginia.  It's going to be 72 deg here today and 95 in Texas City.  But winter in Texas is pretty darn nice.
Great looking place you are building!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 16, 2011, 07:29:43 AM
Trouble sleeping last night, between the full moon and dreaming half-awake about putting up trusses and laying T&G floor underlayment in the upstairs area...  :-\  Wasn't that long ago our ancestors lived in caves and tents and were chased by all sorts of meanies during bright nights, some walking on two legs.  Oh, well, just time for a short update before work starts again.

I think I said this once before somewhere, but it seems to fit again- this house is a work in progress, and most times there's more work than progress.  Been putting in all the needed braces for the trusses that are up, and laying down floor joists for the loft area, plus putting up a couple of small truss ends that will be part of the roof support over the stairwell.  Mostly, though, it's been the dormer truss sections which have been taking up a lot of time.  First picture below shows the north support sections with a double top plate on which will sit one leg of the roof trusses that extend up and out over the south main roof.  One of these is shown in the second picture- almost had a crash on that one- nailed up a support 2X4 to slide the roof extension up and out over so I could lift the "foot" into the cradle shown in the first section.  These pieces weigh in at over a hundred pounds- a little much for me to lift with one hand and nail-gun in place with the other.  So I got it up in the air with the base in place and as I climb the ladder to nail the main part up, I see the nails are just starting to slide out and about to drop the whole thing.  This would be bad for lots of reasons, one of which is me in the way.   >:(  I quickly get my shoulder under the truss (stupid- should have used a 2X4 prop instead), strain to get it back up to where it should be with a couple whacks up using the nail gun as a sledge hammer (another bad idea- the top is already cracked where I've done this before, but it's amazing what you find yourself doing when you actually don't have that third hand that would be so very useful) and banged in a couple nails to secure it.  Caught my breath and nailed it and used some 3" screws to secure it in place.  Third picture shows the other side, south view, where I have to build a support frame for the rest of the dormer roof units and the window header and frame.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/dormer_space_trusses.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/dormer_roof_trusses.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/dormer_outside_roof_trusses.jpg)

Speaking of which, I've been searching everywhere for dormer windows, the old fashioned kind that have two hinged window sections that open in the window and back toward the room.  To close them, you just push them together and lock in place manually.  I can't find them anywhere- anyone have an idea where I could buy them at not-too-steep-a-price?

Last, spent several hours getting floor trusses for the loft oriented, lined up with a string (love that stuff) and screwed down on both ends.  I've been using 8" log screws with pre-drilled holes that go through an angled leg and base plate of the trusses down into the frame wall top plates or into the porch beam.  This makes them secure to tilt and to uplift, so I may or may not add the hurricane ties when I get the trusses all up, or maybe just put them in select areas.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/loft_floor_joists.jpg)

Oh, and just an added note: I decided to pay for the full week of the forklift rent- no way I could single-handedly muscle most of the trusses pieces up, and that work is going lots slower than I'd hoped.  Speaking of which, off to finish up the north porch beam so I can lift the truss pieces over the kitchen and loft into place, hopefully today.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 16, 2011, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: ljmathias on June 16, 2011, 07:29:43 AM
Speaking of which, I've been searching everywhere for dormer windows, the old fashioned kind that have two hinged window sections that open in the window and back toward the room.  To close them, you just push them together and lock in place manually.  I can't find them anywhere- anyone have an idea where I could buy them at not-too-steep-a-price?

Two (used to be three) of the local lumber yards here have custom door shops.  I'm not for sure what they can make but I bought a non standard french style door a while back that was custom made.  It turned out cheaper than a standard door from one of the door manufactures.  Give em a call and if they don't do that kind of work bet they know somebody that does.

On the house I'm building now I just used pretty much standard trusses.  The salesman gave me a little tour of there company and I'm amazed at what they can put together.  It's really interesting seeing you build with your trusses.  I know I'm learning something.

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 17, 2011, 06:45:11 AM
Yesterday was a good day- worked mostly alone but a helper from church showed up and we really got stuff done.  As he said, "two guys working well together are four times more productive than one alone."  If you throw in the nail gun, he's probably right. :)

First thing we did is finish up the posts and beam for the northern porch.  I'd deliberately left these undone so I could drive close with the FEL and forklift to get stuff in place, but the great room-kitchen trusses rest on these so we had to get them up before we could move forward.  First picture shows my good friend and retired pastor (although he's been called back- no rest for the wicked or willing) putting up one of the last posts, and second the finished northern porch structure through the trees and mess around the worksite.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/last_porch_posts.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/Back_porch_pillars.jpg)

You might notice the telescopic forklift is still here- I found I couldn't live without it (wish I could afford to buy one) so we kept it for another week, and may extend that till we get the trusses up, the roof sheathed and the metal roofing on- it is SO much easier to just lift things into position rather than having to wrestle them up there by hand and FEL.  Next picture shows why: with the forklift, two pieces of rope and my trusty assistant, we lifted into place the first of the great room trusses in about 10 minutes, and had it screwed down tight in another ten.   8) 8)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/first_great_room_truss_up.jpg)

I'd been sweating these trusses for days- they weigh about 150-200 pounds each, way to much for one person, and even two strong people (not me) to lift up into place without damage to body, mind and the trusses.  Today he's supposed to come back early this morning- if so, we might get all the big trusses up and locked in place.

In the last picture for today, you can see what I spent the evening doing- sub-flooring.  This is new-to-me stuff called Advantech that is supposedly rain-proof OSB tongue-and-groove flooring, 3/4 inch MOL that allows you to get your flooring down when it's easy, use it for safer working on second floors, and it's not all that expensive.  The safety factor alone is worth it- I hate walking on non-nailed OSB sitting on floor joists, or even worse, walking on just floor joists.  Made the comment about not liking heights much any more, and David (helper for the day) replied that after seeing how hard it was for his wife to heal from a major injury, he'd decided it wasn't worth risking anymore- too slow to heal at our age and never right again afterward.  Weird how your outlook changes as you get older...  :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/subfloor_done.jpg)

Off to the work site to get started for the day.  Hope to have lots more of the trusses up and some support walls built for the dormer windows by end of day... wish me luck.   ::)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Norm on June 17, 2011, 07:44:34 AM
I used the advantech on our last house for the flooring. I'd had too many houses built that as soon as the OSB got wet it swelled at the edges. It worked even better than I hoped.  :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 18, 2011, 02:04:02 PM
Lj,  I tried to send you some cool weather, but it did not get to me.   :-\

Those trusses really look good, but your prep work looks even better.    smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 18, 2011, 09:24:12 PM
Thanks, MM, been working when I can I get through the heat- this is one of the worst summers we've had in years.  Between the sun and humidity, I just can't get through the 12-3 time slot most days, and even mornings are tough to stay hydrated.  It was 80 this morning at 5:30 and my shirt soaked by 6.   >:(

Did make some progress today but forgot the camera- finished up the window frame and support structure for the grandson's bedroom dormer.  Decided to go with the biggest window I could find- a 48" by 36" sliding window from Lowes, if we can get it delivered.  That left me a little less than I would have liked for space- 4" just below the window for flashing and trim, and not quite enough for a good header.  The roof over the dormer is light and well supported on both sides with only two smaller trusses coming from a knee wall on the north side, up and onto the window wall.  Lifted the last three trusses into place with the telescopic forklift- what a time and body saver that has turned out to be!   8)  Oh, and I put it on a credit card so I don't really have to pay for it.   ???

So now I have two-thirds of the trusses up and braced and screwed down with 8 or 12" log screws, depending.  Finished the sub-floor so that's all done now, and decided for evening shift to start stairs.  Like a lot of part-timers out there, cutting stringers has always been a slow process, fraught with mistakes that I end up fixing by trial-and-error.  Found a stair calculator on-line that gives a detailed listing of cut locations, stringer length and run-rise settings to use on a square.  Jim Rogers had given me two of the brass buttons that you screw onto a framing square to lock in the locations for the run and rise- thanks again, Jim!  Made the first one as carefully as I could, then set it in place- was off 3/16th at the top and almost 1/4" at the bottom on slant- trimmed those up and I'll use it as a template for the other two, get those nailed together and put up, then screw down rough under-steps so we can eliminate the ladder climbing- after 10 or 20 times up and down in a shift, I've gotten more exercise that working out at the gym.  ;)

Well, grandson made it all the way through his first summer scout camp- he got homesick but toughed it out, so to celebrate, we had home-made pizza and watched the new True Grit- great night off.  And tomorrow, I'll finish the stairs early, then church and dinner-on-the-grounds with our departing pastor, and just taking it easy the rest of the day.  After all, it is father's day tomorrow, so doing nothing with family might be just the ticket!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 18, 2011, 10:39:37 PM
Indeed a well earned day off.  I'm looking forward to mine.   smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 19, 2011, 11:34:38 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on June 18, 2011, 09:24:12 PM

Like a lot of part-timers out there, cutting stringers has always been a slow process, fraught with mistakes that I end up fixing by trial-and-error.  Found a stair calculator on-line that gives a detailed listing of cut locations, stringer length and run-rise settings to use on a square.  Jim Rogers had given me two of the brass buttons that you screw onto a framing square to lock in the locations for the run and rise- thanks again, Jim! 

My experience exactly.  Friday I found a online calculator and did the same...not trusting the first calculator I found a second one and both agreed.  At the top end I have a bit of brick ribbon to cut around so I drew the stringer in SketchUp.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/197/stringer.jpg)

All ready to cut the stringers just need some wood.  The steps are for an outside deck and the bottom rests on the ground (flat rock).  Figured I need ground contact pressure treated.  Found out most quick, ground contact 2 X 12's are not a stock item at most yards.  My local yard had to order them so it will be a few days before I find out if my calculations work.

Wish I had some of those buttons as I've used em in the past and they make for accurate work.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 19, 2011, 10:14:54 PM
Yes, the buttons work great- here's a picture of them on my grandfather's old framing square- a bit rusty but I hate to mess with it trying to clean it up for fear I'll mess with it...  ;)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/stringer_square_buttons.jpg)

Word of caution: they work great if your wood is square and straight, otherwise when you slide down for the next run and riser, you might be off just a hair, and that makes a huge difference by the time you've done 13 or 15 of them.  You could be off half an inch and not through trying to be accurate.  Using the stair calculator, you get a listing of every "point" of the zig-zag- mark each and it gives you a check on your slide-and-mark process.  It is much more accurate using the calculated and marked point settings, which are laid out to the nearest 32nd of an inch.  The only problem with all this is the one we should always keep reminding ourselves (as noted in the "braces shrank" thread nearby): wood moves.

I assumed (foolishly, of course) that Lowes prime 16' 2X12's sold specifically for making stringers (which cost two arms and a leg) would, in fact, work perfectly for making stringers: HA! I meticulously laid out the first stringer with double checks on all lines marked with a sharp pencil, cut exactly to the line and very carefully hand-sawed down just to the intersecting line, did notice a little binding of the skill saw blade but figured it was just in need of sharpening or replacement, got all done and stood back to admire my handiwork: what?  the stringer that was perfectly straight to the eye before now has a pronounced bow in it?  Yeah, it sure does- seems my notching out the steps relieved tension and let the board relax over an inch and a half from straight.  I'd planned on using this first one as template for the other two, but now what?  My son happened to drop over with his eldest daughter who just turned two, and she suggested putting some pressure on it while nailing a "straightening board" to the side.  Smart girl!

So I tried that with a 2X4 because I wanted space to drop drywall and trim down next to the stringer against the wall it would be fastened two, and got back maybe half of what had bowed.  Ended up using it as the template after all, slowly lining up the flat each time I moved down the length marking each run and rise- stupid way to do it, I suppose, but I figured it was no worse than laying out the next one from scratch and having it do the same or maybe do it in the reverse direction.  This time I screwed a 2X6 on and that helped some- not nearly as much bow, and on the third one, got it pretty straight.  So now I have three stringers, each with a different amount of bow in them... we'll see how they go up.  I was going to pre-fab the entire staircase on the floor and lift it into place, but decided I may have to replace or re-do one of them so decided instead to fasten them up one at a time and then put bracing in between after I checked for flat, plumb and square.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/stringer_bow.jpg)

Oh, and just to point out one problem with the on-line stair calculator (well, not really a problem if you know about it): the program assumes a true 12" width and gives the end-to-end and bottom and top chord lengths based on that width which is wrong for dimension lumber.  In fact, the 2X12s I bought varied in width from 11 plus a hair up to 11 1/4 which they are supposed to be.  That meant also that using one for a template chops off the ends of the zig-zag points of each step- no big deal since I'll be covering them anyway but irritating just the same.   :-\

Finally got all three cut and braced with screwed on lumber; sorry for the blurry picture, but it was getting dark and the camera shutter was slower than me heading for home and a shower.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/all_three_stringers.jpg)

You might notice that one stringer appears to have steps cut in both sides- I figured we'd try to build an Escher staircase and see who tries to walk on the bottom...  :D

Hope to get these up first thing in the morning and planked with 2X8's for rough steps while we build.  I like using 2X for step underlayment so when you glue and screw your actual treads on top, you get an extremely solid, non-squeaky set of stairs.

Last points: I almost forgot to take into account the width (thickness) of the wood flooring that will go on the second floor- you have to use this in your calculation and stringer setting to get things right.  Then I almost forgot to subtract the thickness of the rough steps (1 1/2") from the bottom of the stringer, so I had to cut that off of the template before I made the others.  Then I forgot that the stringers will sit on the concrete of the slab (with sill seal underneath) instead of on the ground floor flooring, so that added back on an inch or so.

All in all, stringers and stairs are probably the hardest part of building a two-story house (if you want access to the second floor, that is), and one that requires remembering and taking into account things that come later (floor covering thicknesses) and rough treads (if used) and finish tread thicknesses.  Finally, the on-line program I used apparently has a major flaw: it does not take into account how you fasten the stringers to the supporting wall.  I have truss ends to fasten to which means I really don't need a 1" or 1 1/2" end plate pre-fastened to the stringers before lifting them into place.  This almost caught me here: in one of my umpteen measurement checks, I found that the top run was a full inch shorter than the others, and this after very carefully measuring and cutting exactly as the program had them laid out.  I'll compensate by using a piece of 1X nailed in behind the ends of the stringers, although maybe pushing the first step out a little more with a piece of 2X would be better- make the top step (coming down) just a little wider to prevent missteps maybe, a bigger target being easier to hit?

Time to read the news and go to sleep- supposed to have help at dawn to put up the last of the trusses, and dawn is coming early nowadays.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 19, 2011, 10:36:40 PM
Yup, I had several 2X6's to close up on my saw while cutting rafters.  Sometimes more than once on the same cut.  Stress and compression wood does strange things, no matter who's sawmill it came from.  It seems worse if it has both heart and sapwood, which yours appears to have.

Anyway, lumber always has the last word.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: dukndog on June 20, 2011, 07:05:17 AM
LJ,
I got a square that looked like that from my grandfather as well. I did clean it up a bit with some white vinegar. It'll remove alot of the rust from them.
I really enjoy following your story on this home your building!! Very informative and with pictures, even I can understand it!!
Rich Miller
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 20, 2011, 07:59:48 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on June 19, 2011, 10:14:54 PM
Using the stair calculator, you get a listing of every "point" of the zig-zag- mark each and it gives you a check on your slide-and-mark process.  It is much more accurate using the calculated and marked point settings, which are laid out to the nearest 32nd of an inch.  

That's a great idea but something my calculator did not give me.  I added dimensions to my SketchUp drawing.  It looks like SketchUp will only dimension to a 16th...maybe it needs a little tweaking or maybe that is close nuff.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/197/stringer_1.jpg)

Learning more and more from this thread.


Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 21, 2011, 06:18:55 AM
Larry- not sure you really need more accurate layout.  I don't know about you all but I can't pencil in and cut to that level of accuracy anyway; I'm doing real good to get it to a sixteenth...  :)

Quick update before getting to work- my volunteer helper is the first assistant I've ever had who actually shows up on time, even if that time is dawn.  So yesterday was one of those fantastical days that happens rarely when building something as large and complicated as a house- everything went extremely well. As my daughter told me one time, some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.  Yesterday was a day when the bear and I sat down and had dinner together in peace and harmony.

First the stairs: after all my concern with the bowing and then using a bowed template that I straightened as I went, we put up the stringers and wonder of all wonders: it was as near perfect as anything I've ever done on that scale!   8) 8)  Not only were the runs all level but they and the risers lined up perfectly across the three stringers.  I did decide to use a 2X8 for the top brace and spacer which brought the first step out a little more then the rest, but it helped hold the three stringers in alignment while we wrestled them into place.  We also put a brace at the bottom under where the stairs will be closed in and that helped as well.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/stringers_up.jpg)

Turns out the runs were just long enough to accept 2X8 rough treads which I put flush with the rise each was sitting on.  This left over an inch of space behind to drop the finish risers into, which should work great- leaves enough wiggle room to get everything lined up right when the time comes.  I may have mentioned that I tend to over build things, so to secure the stringers to the frame, I used 8" and 12" log screws through the wall stringer into the (and through sometimes) the studs there, and through the floor joist components into the stringer ends at the top.  Later I'll build the side wall that will go under the outer stringer to finish off the closet space under the stairs.  It is very nice being able to climb up and down on stairs rather than ladders:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/rough_stairs_done.jpg)

Second major accomplishment yesterday was building in an end brace for the trusses over the stairwell.  The truss engineer said he couldn't figure out how to do it with pre-made trusses, so we'd have to do it stick framing.  Used two 2X6's, one on top of the other spanning the two sets of doubled trusses on either side, then set the two south trusses in place, nailed them from behind, and added two more pieces of 2X6 behind the first set.  The lower one we set in parallel and nailed it flat to the one next to it, but the top one we turned 90 degrees and made a strong-back to help prevent sideways motion and to stiffen up the whole assembly: worked great!   8) 8)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/stairwell_trusses.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/truss_brace_over_stairwell.jpg)

Both projects hadn't taken nearly as long as I'd thought, so we had time to put in trusses on the north side.  In fact, we managed to set all the remaining sections other than the gabel end piece that will go on last:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/last_of_north_trusses_up.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/north_trusses_done.jpg)

Wow, it's beginning to look like a real house!  :o  8) 8)  We got all this done by 6:30 which was a good thing because our departing pastor and his wife were coming over for desert and coffee before they make the long trek "up north-" which means somewhere in northern Mississippi.  They've been transferred to a church in Hernando (spelling?) and we will miss them sorely: he's baptized all four of my youngest son's children and kept my son and his wife involved in the church over the last 9 years- and that's quite a feat.  He was also there when I had heart surgery and later when I had my prostrate sent to a better place because it decided to cultivate some cancer cells.  Hate to see someone leave who's been such a big part of our lives over the years.

Dawn's coming, time for work and the last of the trusses, I hope, although there's forecast for thunderstorms.  We did get some rain last night, hallelulah!  Maybe the grass will turn back from brown to green and the pond fill up some.  Blueberries never did finish plumping up- no water for a month now.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: shinnlinger on June 21, 2011, 06:40:37 AM
Nice work and I too am a fan of Advantech... and zipwall and ziproof for that matter but let me highly recommend you hold onto that Lull as long as you can. 

Whip up a platform 12 ft wide that slides/locks on those forks and you can set your tools, materials and a workstation for roofing and siding and climb onto with a ladder.  I was lucky enough to do maintenance on a Lull while I built my place, it took me a while to finish up working on the machine so I could keep it a "little longer", a "little longer", a "little longer", until it ended up being here for a year and a half.  If you are working virtually alone it will dramatically increase your productivity and safety.

Dave
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 23, 2011, 10:36:39 PM
Well, I have to admit that the Advantech flooring lives up to its claims- been raining off and on for three days now and no end swelling or flaking of the OSB.  It rained a downpour about 6 this evening which ended my work for the day, but it started out great and we got a ton done despite the occasional drizzle during the morning.  First picture shows daughter Jessie helping with the west dormer window framing that we had to get up so we could lift the dormer roof trusses into place.  Second picture shows the three short trusses laid on the upper beam of the bent and the dormer window frame we'd just made. I'd show the picture of those finished but major problem came to light when I installed them in the afternoon- supposed to have five and the company only made up (and charged me for) three, so both sides of the dormer need trusses which I'll call about in the morning.  Hope they can make them up quick for me...   ???  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/Jessie_with_last_of_trusses.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/dormer_rafters.jpg)

We then finished up the last two south halves of the main cathedral ceiling truss sets, and finally the gable end.  First picture below shows that truss all gussied up with 2X4's to make her pretty but mostly to keep pieces from breaking off when I lifted from the middle- at over 500 pounds, that's a lot of weight to suspend from a single point and I didn't have a strong-back lifting bar.  Instead, we stiffened the truss by screwing on 16' 2X4's at the bottom near both ends and doubled up in the middle.  My faithful helper, David, came back for the finish, and in his usual role (as retired pastor), he guided the flock to its resting place on the end of the frame.  With the reinforcement added, we used a single rope tied in the middle to lift- that allowed David to turn and align the truss as I lifted it and telescoped it up into place.  Wow, that forklift is useful!  If it wasn't so expensive, I'd keep it for a while or better yet, buy a used one- anyone got one they want to part with? Next picture shows the gable truss in place and nailed and screwed tight enough to hold it- I'll finish up aligning and bracing it tomorrow in good light.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/gabel_truss_ready_to_go.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/gabel_truss_up.jpg)

You may notice occasional metal braces between trusses in some of the pictures.  These were available from the fabrication company and are perfect for spacing and light bracing- they make for exactly two foot OC and all you have to do is pound the main spikes down and then bend in and set the two latch locks on either side- simple and fast.  You just have to be careful of two things: you have to seat the trusses tight against the shoulder stops or your spacing will be off, and you have to watch out for the sharp spikes that hold them in place.  Got several nicks over the last few days, but today I moved too fast near one and jammed a spike into my thumb- bled like a stuck pig.   >:(  :D  Goes to show, no matter how hard you try, stuff happens.  Picture below shows one of the benefits of these spacing braces: with careful measurement and alignment in the other two dimensions, you can get a pretty flat set of trusses ready for sheathing.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/trusses_lined_up_on_top.jpg)

Speaking of sheathing, I decided to try to get some done before it rained again today.  But first, I set three or four braces between and at a diagonal to the trusses- sure does make things nice and solid, not so swayable when you climb around in them up high, which I really, really hate.   :o  First picture below shows the two I managed to get up.  To make the first row go a little easier, I use pressure treated decking for fascia, first coated with the same sealant used for the siding and porch posts and beams.  It matches well, and is resistant to pretty much everything except carpenter bees, dang them!  By raising this fascia board the width of the sheathing above the truss tops, I could put glue on the trusses then flop a sheet of OSB into place where it was held by the fascia and nail it down with the hurriquake nails.  Slick and smooth with two people, but for the afternoon, it was just me and the forklift- works great at lifting sheets into place and giving me something to stand on while I laid them down.  Was about to start the third one that will overhang the east gable end and fly rafter (I started in the center of the roof this time to see if that made it easier to keep things aligned and square on the trusses- not good to run out of nailing places before you get to the end of the roof).  I'm using plywood for the last section over the gable ends- more about that tomorrow... today it started to rain a little and I just had time to get tools under cover when it opened up- got soaked on the way home.  Pictures below show the first two sheets of roof sheathing (in the rain) and the dormer window west (in the rain).  You can just see the three dormer roof trusses I'd set earlier sitting all by themselves and forlorn, waiting for the rest of the family to join them. :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/first_two_roof_sheathing.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/rain_in_the_dormer_window.jpg)

Tomorrow I only have the forklift till late afternoon, so I'll try to get as much sheathing onto the roof as I can.  Should go reasonably well, but I'll have to also do the fly rafters (or part of them, the support 2X's at least) so I can nail and screw the sheathing onto them to help hold them up till I can finish the ends later.  Still got bracing to add, two more dormer trusses to order and get up, the west gable truss to line up and brace, and both gable end fly rafters to finish... for now, and then roofing felt and metal roofing.  Sure hope to get it dried in by early next week... the frame is getting soaked every day now, and that's not good.  :-[

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Norm on June 24, 2011, 08:11:40 AM
Looking good! Did the cold front we had come through make it that far?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 24, 2011, 09:37:05 PM
Don't know about any cold front, Norm, although it did get all the way down to mid 70's last night.  :D

Rain put a damper on work some yesterday and the frame interior was full of water this morning.  Grandson River came over to help and spent some time pushing water toward the door with a push broom... some success although he claimed the water was faster than he was.   :)  He helped in other ways as well, running for drinks and watermelon during breaks, handing me nails and glue tubes while I was out on the roof sheathing, and helping mark the positions for purlins for the fly rafter (first picture)- guess you could call them fly purlins?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/River_helping_mark_for_flys.jpg)

Most of the stuff I read describes building a "ladder" of joists and 2X runners to lift up and nail in place on the gable ends- sheathing then helps hold it in place.  Two reasons I don't like this approach- I have a hard time holding up one end in place while I push the other up and fasten it where it needs to be.  Sure, there are ways around this, but most involve time consuming and sometimes dangerous "fixes" to the hoisting problem.  Second reason is stability- hanging all that weight from end-nailed sections plus the nails through the sheathing, and of course, you can't stand on the outer edge to work, especially if your sheathing is OSB which allows nails to pull through pretty easily.  I do it a little differently- probably learned this method from someone but can't remember if I did or who it might have been- oh, well, memory is a fickle reflection of reality anyway.

What I do is make a two-board assembly that will become the fly purlins, if that's the best way to describe them- the part that sticks out from the last supported truss to the end of which is attached the actual fly rafter.  I've used two versions of this idea on the current house I'm building, one that doesn't use 2X fly rafters (just 1" facia that is screwed to the sheathing and the fly purlins) and one that does.  First picture below shows the former- I used 16 1/2" purlins and support shelves that were 43" long to span from the purlin to the second truss in.  Having marked locations for these (either 16" or 24" OC depending on what you prefer), I hold one up tight, nail gun the inside support shelve up first, then at the outer truss and finally through the outer truss and into the purlin itself.  I'm using screws on one side of the house and ring-shanks on the other to see which holds better.  I'm sure the screws will if tested, but the nails should provide plenty of support and stability.  Second picture shows the purlins on the other side of the house from the first ones- I cut the 2X4 back by 1 1/2" but left the shelf going out: I'll attach a 2X4 to the end on top of the shelving which will help hold it up while I align it and nail it into place.  Guess you could call this "building a fly rafter on the fly" or something crazy.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/premade_fly_purlin.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/fly_rafter_pulins_version_2.jpg)

First set went up on the northern half of the east gable wall- seemed to work fine but I cheated a couple of ways.  First, I use plywood instead of OSB to help support the fly rafters and purlins, as much for my piece of mind (and safety when I'm standing out there) as anything.  Second, I use screws driven from top of the plywood sheathing down into the fly purlins- really holds them tight.  Third, I used glue between the purlins and the sheathing.  In fact, I'm gluing everything down and then using hurriquake nails for most of the sheathing, screws for just the flying part.  Next picture shows what I got down this morning with the help of the forklift- what a useful piece of equipment!  I was able to load a dozen of so sheets on the forks, then position it so that I could just walk the sheathing into place, hook the spacers and drop it down on the glue.  I was worried the 7/12 pitch would be too hard to walk on, and it was when it was wet at dawn.  As the OSB and plywood dried out, things got better and I was able to walk fine, which explains the sore feet I'm now nursing- standing and walking at that angle plays heck with your ankles and the soles of your feet, but it was worth as shown below.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/forklift_for_sheathing.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/view_down_sheathing.jpg)

Now the good news: called the equipment rental place to have them come pick up a most useful tool that I can't afford anymore, and they sadly announced that they couldn't come and get it today, would Monday be alright?  Was it in your way?  I said, no, it's not in the way, so it's fine till Monday.  Of course, I was jumping for joy inside-  8) 8)- didn't want them to know as they might charge me for more days- I just might be able to finish the roof sheathing over the weekend, and if not, at least get all the ply and OSB up on the roof so I won't have to manhandle it up by myself...  I'm beat as it is, and pushing and pulling sheathing up two stories gets old real fast!

Now for the bad news: pink lumber is breeding into pink mold:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3536/pink_mold.jpg)

The high humidity and heavy rain the last few days have caused this stuff to sprout in several locations on the trusses- seems to be specific to those, though, as I haven't seen it anywhere else.  Question is: is it something to worry about or will it just die out and go away once the house is dried in and dried out?  I know this isn't a mold forum, but hey, one of you must have seen this stuff somewhere somewhen, no?   ??? ???

Tomorrow bright and early back at the sheathing- will finish out a couple of rows on the north side, then try to get some done on the south.  Problem is, I still have to build in a section of trusses and purlins over part of the stairwell- engineer at the truss place couldn't figure out how to do it with their stuff so he left it to me.  Also need to mount two dormer trusses that somehow got left off the cut list- I put up what I had and I guess I was tired because I kept thinking something doesn't look right...  ::)  Was back up in the loft looking at my handiwork and enjoying the view when suddenly it hit me: I didn't have either of the gable trusses for the dormer!  Seems they just went missing between the final design and the cut list... they did a rush job for me (why it's good to use local if you can- they want repeat business like everyone, but they know it's more likely to come from us local yokels).  Also have to build and mount the fly rafter purlins for the south half of the gable ends- another 11 each side- so I can glue and screw the ply sheathing to them as I build rows up...  hope it doesn't rain this weekend!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 24, 2011, 10:29:16 PM
I've never heard the term "fly rafters".  I think they are the same as what I call barge rafters.  It is an easy way to build the rake.  Notch the end truss on the ground for a 2 x 4.  After the truss is in place its an easy job to put in the pre-cut  2 X 4 barge rafters plus a 2 X 6 at right angle.  But...its now near impossible to attach the fascia single handed.  To make it even harder I used a 2 X 6 with a Hardi plank on top of that...hopefully so I'll never have to do any maintenance.

On my garage gable end I built the ladder thingy on the ground and hoisted it up with blocks.  Through bolted to the end truss and sheathed with osb using glue/Hurri-quake nails.  I think its plenty strong plus I have a metal roof.  I made sure it was safe but it took all day for me to do what should have been a 1 hour job at most.  On the actual house gable ends I got help and did it the right way with barge rafters.  I also had to put up with hee-haws from my helpers on the way I did the garage. :-[ :-[
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 24, 2011, 11:21:34 PM
Looks like the rain is mostly gone for a while anyway.  I know that we need rain, but builders don't.

Did I understand that you were going to use metal roofing?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 25, 2011, 06:11:25 AM
Yes, MM, metal roofing and I may put metal rake and flashing the same color.  The metal fab shop I bought my last batch from has moved or disappeared, so I've got to track them down or find a new source- the slump is hitting everybody it seems.

Larry: my trusses are just 2X4 and the gable trusses are not all that solid to begin with, so I decided not to cut out 1 1/2" slots for the supports like you did- probably would have been fine but we do live in hurricane alley here.  And you're right on the time involved- for something so simple in concept and easy to do at ground level, it's a difficult, slow job up high, and I hate working at that height.  I just can't seem to relax and enjoy it like some do, which means I'm twice as tired by day's end- once from the work and once from being tense all the time with muscles knotted up and tight waiting for the slightest tilt or twist that would start a fall.  Aren't we humans crazy creatures?  Saw a National Geographic picture of a lion in the top of a tree leaping from one branch to another, and lions ain't no lightweights either!  Be nice to be a lion sometimes... :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 25, 2011, 06:57:15 AM
I don't know what I was thinking last night...there called lookouts.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: dukndog on June 25, 2011, 10:39:50 AM
Might want to mix up some vinegar and spray on the mold. It should "kill" it. If not, then I know bleach will...I just hate the ammonia smell!!!
Glad the heavy equip guys are running behind for ya!! Sometimes being slow is a blessing!!!! I used a lift painting and trimming some time back, rented it for the weekend, paid for it in advance, called em on Monday to pick it up, they showed up the following Monday!!! Got 10 days rental for 2!!! I tink I had to put diesel in it twice!!
Good Luck!!

Rich Miller
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 25, 2011, 02:06:23 PM
Mine came from Reed's Metal here in Brookhaven.  He has several other outlets, but I'm not sure where.  Will you screw it down to the OSB, or use lathing to create an air space?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 25, 2011, 03:32:17 PM
Yeah, guys, it's great to get a little lagniape (sp?) now and then, and I am sure using the forklift to get more roofing on...

MM, I'm of two minds about the strapping on the roof under the metal.  Several metal supplier sites online indicate that it's not needed.  On the other hand, the air space should help cool in the summer and the lathing makes it a lot easy to screw down- definitely screws, but trying to find the truss tops under the felt will be a real time waster even if I snap lines. Any comments from others out there?  What's been the recommendations from the manufacturers and what's been your experience?  Any advice would be welcome.   :)

Son whose a plumber just installed an LG individual room heat and cooling system- 3 room unit with very small and quiet units hung on the walls like large picture frames plus the almost silent compressor run about $4,000- considerably less then the ducted system we'd been pricing with an HVAC installer.  Anyone have experience with these? More energy efficient (as claimed)? Definitely easier to install (he just did one and could help do the new house easy), and with individual room controls, seems like it would save a bunch on utilities.  Again, any advice or comments are welcome.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 25, 2011, 03:53:04 PM
Lj, I would want to talk with the roofing people.  I do know that when metal roofing is placed over asphalt shingles they always use 1X4 lathing.  I know for smoothness, but to me, ventilation is very important.

In my instance, I used 2X4 lathing nailed to the rafters.  The reflective backed foam was nailed to the underside of the lathing.  This provided 1½" of ventilation space under the roofing and also prevents the fiberglass insulation from contacting the roofing thus impeding ventilation.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 25, 2011, 07:24:23 PM
I've been using Central States 29 gauge metal for the last 10 years.  26 gauge reserved for commercial and boat docks due to wider spaced purlins.  I picked them because they have a state of the art plant just down the road a bit, the price is right, and the warranty while not the best is close with 40 years on paint.  Kynar (sp) paint is the best but expensive...used it once on a shed roof.  The metal must be installed per manufacture guidelines so they will honor the warranty.  They will have a pdf with guidelines and I notice they change over time and with each manufacture.

House roof last year was installed over 30 pound felt into osb with screws on the flat.  Shop roof was installed 8 years ago over Dow Blue Cor into 2 X 4 purlins 2' OC.  Again screws on the flat.  Both the house and shop are the same metal...the shop shows the same color but is a flatter pitch and dust/pollen doesn't wash off as easy with the rain.

First house roof I did was about 20 years ago with real standing seam.  Screws went into the seam with a metal cap over the screws.  Roof sheathing was osb.  The roof still looks near as good as installed with no leaks (as of a few months ago).  Minor chalking because we use grey.  I can't remember the gauge or who made it but I do remember the cost...about the most expensive roof you can buy and it took forever to get it on.  I would never spend that kind of money again but it was impressive.  Probably a pic in my gallery.

Only advice I can give is pre-drill and don't mash the washers down on the screws.  Just a little pucker is needed.

Can't help on the HVAC...the house I'm building now is my first on a slab and I've found out they perform a lot different than a house with a basement.


Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Holmes on June 25, 2011, 11:30:51 PM
I just went to a class on Mitsubishi mini split heating / ac systems and I installed a few Daikin units last year. These units would be a great way to heat and cool the new house.  They have been doing this in Europe and Asia for years. They are very efficient and you may get some tax credits or rebates.



Quote
Son whose a plumber just installed an LG individual room heat and cooling system- 3 room unit with very small and quiet units hung on the walls like large picture frames plus the almost silent compressor run about $4,000- considerably less then the ducted system we'd been pricing with an HVAC installer.  Anyone have experience with these? More energy efficient (as claimed)? Definitely easier to install (he just did one and could help do the new house easy), and with individual room controls, seems like it would save a bunch on utilities.  Again, any advice or comments are welcome.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on June 26, 2011, 12:10:28 AM
Holmes
Do you have a link to the split system?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on June 26, 2011, 07:00:13 AM
I've used metal roof on our cabin and the 6 sheds that we have built over the last five years.  I now wish that I had used standing seam on the cabin.  We have had two leaks on the cabin and getting up on the steep cabin roof is a real challenge.  I'm seriously considering replacing the cabin steel with standing seam.  I don't want to deal with a leaking roof in my old age.

Quinton
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 27, 2011, 06:40:38 AM
Quinton: I've had a leak in my metal covered barn but it was my own doing- left too much gap at the top for hot air venting and water blows up inside during a storm.  Do you know where your leak is and from what?  I put a metal roof on my son's house- about a 5/12 but no breaks other than vents- and it has worked perfectly.

After reading more on the subject and taking into account the need to be able to walk and work safely during install, I'm going to put down 1X4 lathing as fastening points and to allow better air circulation.  I'm assuming the ribs on the metal allow enough air to flow up and out the ridge vent during hot days- anyone know if that's true or not?

Anyway, the forklift will leave today so I'm off to try to finish up as much roof sheathing as possible before they claim it.  It makes a world of difference hoisting the sheets up to just where I need them rather than having to arm-power them there, especially considering it's a 7/12 slope that I can just barely walk on, although not safely enough for my taste- always have one hand ready to grab the sheet that's next to me except when I'm lifting one to flop down in the spacers, and that takes two hands, two feet and a skyhook! :o

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on June 27, 2011, 07:30:48 AM
I am having a metal roof put on my house.  It will be put down with 1x4 lathe on two foot spacing like you described.  The air does circulate up through the ribs.  Supposed to make for a cooler attic and better energy efficiency.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 27, 2011, 07:56:00 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on June 27, 2011, 06:40:38 AM
Quinton: I've had a leak in my metal covered barn but it was my own doing- left too much gap at the top for hot air venting and water blows up inside during a storm.   Lj

Lj, I don't have a picture to illustrate but the top edge of the top sheet (under the ridge cap) should be bent up.  The result is a ¾" "flange" that is vertical and will stop wind blown rain.  I have a special handheld tool that is used to bend that edge up.

I'll try to remember to take a picture this week.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 27, 2011, 08:00:39 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on June 27, 2011, 06:40:38 AM
I'm going to put down 1X4 lathing as fastening points and to allow better air circulation.  I'm assuming the ribs on the metal allow enough air to flow up and out the ridge vent during hot days- anyone know if that's true or not?  Lj

Absolutely.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: pineywoods on June 27, 2011, 08:40:34 AM
Safety tip for metal roofing. Wear soft sole shoes and always put your foot on top of a screw head. The screw will dig into the soft shoe and keep your foot from slipping. For rain blowing up under the roof cap, my supplier has soft foam 1 inch X 3 ft strips with notches cut out for the ridges. Goes between the top of the roofing sheet and the ridge cap. 3 hurricanes and no leaks yet.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: witterbound on June 27, 2011, 09:51:47 AM
I'd spray the mold with a mixture of 50 percent bleach and 50 percent water. 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 27, 2011, 01:21:43 PM
I've used the foam strips three times.  The first time the adhesive failed and the strips blew out with the wind.  They got that fixed now.

7/12 pitch is scary for me.  I use a safety harness on osb and won't tread on metal.  The pros have no problem with 7/12 pitch.  It gets a lot slicker when covered with pollen and that's hard to see/detect.

Couldn't get the metal up on one side of our house without kinking because it was way to long.  A trick is to roll it and fasten with a rubber tarp strap on each end.  I've also have a modified vise-grip with a rope loop welded on.  Grip the metal just on the edge and pull it up.

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 27, 2011, 01:24:24 PM
Piney, that "top closure" material will also eliminate your ridge top ventilation and only allow air and moisture to escape out of the gable ends.  Personally, I would rather flair the roof ends up and maintain the ventilation along the entire ridge cap.

I use "bottom closure" above the fascia to prevent wasp from entering, but I install vents underneath the eves to provide an entrance for fresh air.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 27, 2011, 02:36:48 PM
You just answered two questions I was about to ask- but for the life of me, I can't see how to bend the ribbed metal that I use- one reason it's strong and wind resistant is that it doesn't bend easily, and if it does, it's a mess.

I was going to end seal with the gasket stuff and use the hardiboard soffit with pre-drilled holes for ventilation- that stuff is a pain to put up, and you absolutely must have two people to do it or you end up with lots of broken pieces, but it lasts forever, is fire and bug proof, and seldom needs re-painting once you have it finished: trade-offs, but I've seen what carpenter bees can do to wood soffits, even painted ones, at my daughter's house.  They are riddled with holes and tubes, and the whole set of soffits will need replacing before she can sell it.  More work but other things first...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 27, 2011, 03:04:02 PM
Just an update on metal roofing- talked to the local supplier and he sent me to their main website: centralsteelmfg.com, or you can go directly to the pdf file of the results of a USSteel study:
http://www.centralstatesmfg.com/UserFiles/File/ACQ%20Pressure%20Treated%20Lumber.pdf

Key points are these: do NOT apply metal roofing over pressure treated lumber- corrosion is accelerated, as shown in the article above; and it is better to put down 1X4 lathing for air circulation, otherwise the heat is reflected down into the sheathing and attic, and this reduces the life of the underlayment as well.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on June 27, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: ljmathias on June 27, 2011, 02:36:48 PM
- but for the life of me, I can't see how to bend the ribbed metal that I use-  Lj 

I'll try to remember to take some pictures.  You do not bend the rib, just the flats.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on June 27, 2011, 04:38:11 PM
Lot of different ways to skin this cat.  Might also depend on how your trusses are made...mind are tailless and flat out to the end which made it simple.  I made 6" "V" panel pine for the soffit and was planing to vent with 1 1/2" aluminum extrusion.  At the last minute I got cold feet because of my age and the maintenance issue.  Next idea was to brake aluminum and use the pre-formed aluminum vent panels.  I backed out on that idea also because matching aluminum on the gable end looks...so aluminum. 

Finally just said do it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/soffit.jpg)

Hardi boards under the gutter match Hardi boards on the gable end...and it looks like rough cedar to tie in with the deck.  Aluminum vents from the Hardi to the brick.  Could have used vinyl.  Either way it's an easy install.  I knocked together a thingy to cut the aluminum.  I may have a picture if your interested...worked as well as the thousand dollar thingys.

Central States is where I mentioned earlier that I have been getting my metal.  I've visited in there factory and they said they will brake me any shape I desire if I have a unusual situation.  Real nice folks.  They do have a distribution network called Metal Central along with private distributors.  If you can, get price quotes from both but make sure you don't tell Metal Central as there may be a non-compete clause in your area.

MM, I don't know what they sell your way but what I used on the ridge most definitely vents and is rainproof.  They make one brand that is corrugated that you can actually see through but keeps the rain out.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 29, 2011, 05:38:32 AM
Thanks for the great update on metal roofing- still got some investigating to do but plan to order this week or next at the latest.... got to finish roof prep first.   >:(

Speaking of which, been so busy that I haven't had time or energy to post... and that's pretty tired.  Trying like crazy to get water protection so we can stop the mold and let things dry out on the inside- got a little shower last night and more predicted for today, dang it.   :(

Anyway, the beloved forklift wandered away on Monday, leaving an empty place in my heart and lots more muscle work to finish up the roof... last pictures of it hoisting up sheathing for the north side roof.  Also used it to get the first two rows down on the south side- what a life saver!  Drop on that side is 12' straight down and I really, really don't like having my toes on the edge of a roof that high while I wrestle a 4X8' sheet of OSB into place.  Using the forklift, I could stand back from the edge some and slide the sheets into place- slow and professionals would have laughed their heads off, but I'm still here and in one piece, no broken bones although lots of cuts and splinters...   :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/forklift_before_departure.jpg)

Seems hard to believe we only had the forklift for two weeks and went from first floor frame only to having the bent up and all the trusses raised and braced.  Just goes to show what modern machinery can do for you. 8)  Also strange that, while I had the forklift which was pretty darn expensive to rent, I felt unending urgency to maximize use of it for everything I could think of, and actually did pretty much.  Would have liked to finish the roof decking, but at least got a good start on that.  Now that the forklift is history for this house, a new urgency to get it dried in has taken over.  Seems like it's one urgency after another, but that's the way houses get built, in my experience...   :)

Next picture show the flying barge rafters done on one side of the house.  These were a real pain, standing at the top of an extension ladder, holding the unit up in place with one hand, hanging onto the ladder with one hand, and hoisting up the nail gun to get that first crucial nail in place so I can let go of it and hang on with both hands... :o  Anyway, got those done and they look pretty straight and flat.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/fly_rafter_up.jpg)

This picture shows the fill-in rafter work to bridge from the north side trusses to the south side ones over the stairwell- still haven't figured out why the truss engineer couldn't have done this but it was no big deal- had plenty to nail to on either side.  Used three strong backs made up from a 2X4 nailed to a 2X6, with the east end squeezed in between truss components and nailed to two of them and the west end butt joined to the trusses on that side.  Both sides had doubled trusses for strength.  Laid 2X4's on top of these, screwed them tight with 8" log screws and ring-shank nails, and they were nice and solid.  Had a 34" bridge on the south side of the ridge board, and that also helped make it strong.  Got a row of sheathing laid on top of this section and everything felt rigid under foot.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/fill_in_roof_trusses.jpg)

Also got the last two dormer trusses that had been missed by the manufacturer- they whipped them up within hours after my call, another good reason to use local sources if possible.  Went and picked them up Friday afternoon, used my "extra" time on the forklift to hoist them up and get them in place but didn't finish nailing and screwing them down till Monday morning.  They're the two on the outside, the gable trusses for the dormer roof and absolutely necessary for adding on the flying barge rafters (I like that term- combines the two names I've run across for these and sounds like something substantial, doesn't it?) for the dormers to keep rain from hitting at the intersection of the dormer wall with the roof.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/dormer_finished.jpg)

Here's the really good news- started putting down felt and lathing on the north side on Monday.  Really need to get this place dried in as soon as I can.  Enough for today, off to get a start on finishing up the decking and felting and lathing, then maybe things can settle down some.  Found out last night that my grandson's Boy Scout troupe is making a trip to Florida to watch the last shuttle launch... ever. ::)  So we're going along to watch history in the making, and maybe to relax a few days.  Problem is, I have to have the roof prep finished before we go so when we get back, metal roofing can go on... but at least that's an urgency that can move with slow, deliberate haste.  ;D

Lj

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/felt_and_lathing_going_on.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on June 30, 2011, 07:04:24 AM
Forgot to mention our newest animal visitor, one we haven't seen in years and really can't have around with all the grandkids out playing all day.  As they get older and explore more, it's more likely they would run across such critters.  Sad to say, like too many Americans, local extermination seems to be our only answer and this is actually leading to a sad situation for these poor creatures- they're disappearing from the landscape, and we really do need them around for pest control and because God gave them to us for a reason...   :P

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/unwanted_visitor.jpg)

Here's a close up that you would almost never see in reality- they are shy creatures, who would rather run away than stay and argue domain possession with humans.  The picture shows a tiny hole- Son is a good shot with a 22 pistol.  Since this is such a rare occurrence on our land, son Josh decided to try and preserve as much of him as he could- skinned him and nailed the skin to dry (and will treat with borax to harden it up), cut the head off and put that someplace very safe to let the flesh decay away after which he'll bleach and very, very carefully detail it (their venom can remain active for years, we found out), and put the carcass with the skeleton in a fire ant bed, hoping to have them finally do something useful and clean the bones so he can mount the whole skeleton if it stays intact.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/just_departed.jpg)

Back to decking and roofing... yesterday was a good day even though we took off for a family lunch.  Only got 3 hours in on the morning shift, but came back later as it cooled and did a bunch more.  Result was that the northern half of the roof is completely decked, covered in felt and striped with lathing for the metal roof!  Finally getting somewhere!   8)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/north_roof_decked.jpg)

I'm not sure how you all do these steps but I think I mentioned that I use glue and hurriquake nails to get the decking down secure.  The combination should be much more effective at preventing that initial motion caused by major wind (which we have) or earthquake (which we haven't had for a hundred years and then not around here).  If you can keep everything tight and stiff, they don't get worse, but if that little bit of initial movement takes place, it just gets bigger and bigger with each gust of high-energy wind till things are really shaking and moving around.  Anyway, despite the trouble of working with too-hot and drippy glue running everywhere and leaking out of the glue gun between sheets, the decking went down well.

Tried two approaches to trimming the edges, both of which I've used before with less confidence: put the decking on and trim in place, or measure the last piece carefully and have it just fit to the edge.  My increasing dislike of heights was apparent when I put down the east run up to the peak: found myself very uncomfortable snapping lines and running the skil saw down to drop the extra off.   ::)  Went back to the more time consuming but much more comfortable for me process of taking careful measurements, going inside to cut that piece and then hoisting into place and fastening it down.  Even careful measurements can sometimes be off a little, especially when you're urgently trying to get 'er done, and I did have to trim a little off two pieces over the course of the day, but well worth it and much easier when you can see and feel the extra sticking out.  :)

Did realize that of the two methods I'm experimenting with on flying barge rafters, putting the little shelf on the extension for a 2X to sit on and then be nailed/screwed into them is the way to go.  Just having the 1X6 soffitt hanging there is not enough support and doesn't give a nice clean nailing target- hard to hit when you're reaching out past your comfort level to fasten it.

Just to finish up on methods here, two points to discuss: tacking down felt and nailing down lathing.  I've used the button nails that a roofer friend said was the best way to hold down the felt till you get roofing on, but he only does shingle roofs.  With metal roofs and lathing under (which I did on my son's house), I found that the buttons were often in the place I wanted the lathing to lay flat on the roof.  Also, button tacks are a real pain to put down, both in the process and the actual pain involved- if you're not mindful, you rub the skin off the back of the two fingers you use to hold and position the nails, and since your fingers are right there and such beautiful targets, an occasional hammer blow to remind them of who's boss is bound to happen.  And finally, they're really slow...  >:(  With lathing going down immediately, and the need for a flat surface to put it on, I just use a coil roofing gun now to hold the felt in place: not cheap but what a time and frustration saver (not to mention safety and pain).  Holding down the trigger and popping the gun, I can put down three nails in a row faster than I can pick up a hammer- just have to be very careful not to "pop" a body part that might get in the way. :-\

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/roofing_nail_gun.jpg)

The detail picture below shows the roofing nails plus part of a lathing strip- I nail these down with galvanized ring shanks so they stay in place till the metal roof goes on.  Thin boards like these (1X4's) are prone to warping with rain and dew, and I even nail the ends down whether they fall on a truss top or not.  Final picture shows the lathing jig I use, actually two of them for both ends of a board.  I set them up carefully to be exactly 2' between the middle slot and the top, and with a little overhang at the bottom to help hold them in place.  This way I can position exactly two boards at a time to nail down.  After one end is nailed, I move the spacer to the next truss and line it up with the nails on the rows below- allows fast and accurate nail-down to the trusses themselves and not just to the OSB.  Oh, and I only do one row of felt at a time so I can still see the nails above it showing the truss locations.  Last, I leave a gap between board ends so rain can find a path down without just sitting there warping the boards and trying to find a way in...  Sorry if you don't want all the nitty gritty details, but someone thinking about doing this themselves might benefit from all my mistakes and trials over the years...  :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/felt_and_lathing_details.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/lathing_spacing_jig.jpg)

Time for work, and I missed dawn to get this down- if I don't do it every day, it becomes too big a task and hard to get back on track with it.  Someday my kids might like to read about this project, maybe, and perhaps try building on their own (if I'm not still around and bugging them, willing and able to help as well  :( ).

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on June 30, 2011, 08:57:51 PM
Sometimes you get help that you don't need.  Unfortunate for your unwanted visitor, but some places are definitely off limits, especially with the little tykes running around. 

As I mentioned, I am getting a metal roof, but I am too old, or maybe too wise, to do it myself  :).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 01, 2011, 06:59:33 PM
WDH- sure was sad to see that beautiful snake meet its end; found out it was probably more then 10 years old, which means it managed to avoid contact with automobiles and humans for a long time.  Oh, well, life goes on...

I sympathize with you on not wanting to climb around up in the air- and if your house is as steep or steeper than the one I'm walking around on with great trepidation (7/12), than you have good cause.  I was very nervous up there until I finally got a couple rows of lathing laid down- at least something to catch with my toes should gravity win the fight and pull me towards a more stable place closer to the center of the earth.   :o 

Standing up with something to wrap your feet around or onto makes all the difference.  In fact, managed to get in 5 hours worth of work today before it got too hot and I got worn out.  Finished up two of four sections on the south roof- just have a small section 5' wide next to the west dormer and then the dormers themselves.  Still need to fab up the gable overhangs, then put down decking, felt and lathing... should only take a day or two and we'll be (mostly) in the black and mostly dry.  Only problem is the temperature- been at 98 since early after lunch and still that hot now at 6 pm.  So much for the "evening shift" in the cool of the afternoon- I can't drink fast enough to stay ahead of the heat.  Tried to give blood this afternoon- desperate shortage this summer- and my blood count was too low, either because I'm drinking too much and diluting the red cells or not eating enough iron-rich food.  Wife bought some chicken livers- yumm!  :D - so we'll have those for lunch tomorrow and maybe even breakfast.  Double yumm!  :D :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 02, 2011, 08:32:06 PM
Lj, here is the tool used for bending up the flats on the top of the roofing sheets that go under the ridge cap.  I didn't have a scrap piece to actually bend for you.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/Image0178a.jpg)
This one came from Home Depot.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/Image0177a.jpg)
You bend the flat portion up about as high as the ribs are.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 02, 2011, 10:31:02 PM
Great, thanks MM-- I'll go get one Monday if they're open and with the economy down in construction, I'll bet they are and trying to sell anything they can.

Tuesday we order metal roofing, and the daughter is confused now on color.  We checked out central states web site and they have information on there that seems to indicate that all colors work about the same, even have data on emissivity listed, for example, and all of their colors  but one are Energy Star rated.  However, if you look at their numbers on "reflectivity," which I assume is the initial resistance to absorbing the light and heat, a few of their colors stand out, all lighter or almost white.  Based on what I know, I would think white would be the best choice for the South- any thoughts or experience on this?

I can say for sure that felt black is NOT a good color for keeping a roof cool- managed to finish up all but dormer decking this morning (first picture).  Also came into a rude shock, again showing my inexperience with more broken up roofs- forgot all about insulation in the dormer walls!   >:(  Mainly, because there aren't any... and I didn't think to build them in.  So most of the morning was spent cutting back lathing next to each dormer on both sides, then pulling nails left (second picture).  Then cut and nailed down base plates, cut a few studs and nailed them in so i could add the top plates (third picture).  The bottom and top are both sloped but at different angles which makes sizing them correctly a lot harder.  Just need a couple more each and I'll have these done.  Could have done it a lot easier by building the walls on the inside but that would have used up limited space.  As it is, I have 2X4 walls sitting on the roof next to each dormer gable truss which gives me 3 1/2" for insulation plus flat 2X4's to fill in the gable trusses giving me another 1 1/2" for a total of 5" for insulation- would have liked more but will settle for this.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/south_roof_decked.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/dormer_walls.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/south_east_roof_decked.jpg)

Good news is I got the problem and am fixing it before the metal roof goes on- would have cost us inside space if I'd fixed it after.  Rest of the holiday weekend will go to finishing up dormer walls and getting the decking, felt and lathing down on them.  We'll be almost in the dry then, not counting open gable walls and no windows or doors, but at least it's one more part of the project that I can look at and say, Well, now, that's done and that wasn't so bad, was it?  And if I'm really tired or have just finished my early morning coffee after a good night's sleep, I just might agree with myself, but right now, after weeks of getting up the bent, the trusses and the decking plus felt and lathing down in miserable heat and humidity, I can only say, Yeah, it really was that bad.   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 03, 2011, 07:54:04 AM
Very nice progress Lj.  I certainly don't envy you with that much roofing to install.

Yes, that heat was hot this past week.   :-\

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 03, 2011, 08:32:45 PM
Was planning on working some after church but the week's work caught up with me so I ended up actually resting on the official day of rest- that lasted till about 2 or so when I got antsy so I grabbed liquids and headed on over even though it was 96 F.  Had some breeze- storms forming up and moving around but I managed to finish all four dormer walls- picture below is the one I meant to put in yesterday, but couldn't take it because I hadn't actually finished them then.  Time travel is so much fun, although we all travel in the same direction, which is great- means you're still part of what's going on. :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/dormer_walls_finished.jpg)

Thought a heavy downpour was about to happen so instead of finishing up the flying barge rafters around the dormers, I hoisted the OSB that I'll use for the decking there.  Just laid the sheets in place to cover the dormers with a couple of partially driven nails to hold them against the wind.  Bout wore me out, lifting those up by myself, so pretty much gave up around 5- still 96 F but at least with some breeze and gusts occasionally.  Played with the grandkids some, talked to my son a little, and spent time with the wife before dinner- fried chicken livers with Heinz 57 on them for the tang; great meal and my body must have really needed it because I ended up eating more then usual.  Sorry, too much rambling going on here-

Tomorrow I'll finish the decking on the dormers and hopefully get sheathing up on them as well.  Big surprise- went to Lowe's yesterday to special order the 48X36" sliding windows for the dormers, and there they were, in stock, even though their online site said not available; go figure.   ???  Won't put the one at the boy's bedroom in till I finish the soffits and siding around the dormers- small step-ladder to climb out onto the roof, and much easier to do that with lathing toe boards to grip onto than standing on metal roofing.  In fact, I'll also finish the soffits all the way around before roofing goes on, same reason.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/dormer_almost_dried_in.jpg)

Almost wished it had rained a downpour- give me a chance to find leaks, see how the wind and water blows in through the open windows, and give some water to the plants and trees that are slowly drying up around here.  Didn't happen though, but tomorrow predictions are higher for rain; let's hope.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 03, 2011, 08:57:53 PM
Bracing in a stick frame

Thought I'd add a little about the difference between bracing a timber frame and a stick built frame.  Timber frames, of course, are designed and built to free stand- totally self-supporting and braced against racking, twisting and general unwanted movement in the finished structure.  Not so with stick frames- sure, they reinforce pretty well in one direction- along the trusses or joists, but in the other two?  Not so much.  It's important to run bracing in multiple directions, even with pre-manufactured trusses, or maybe especially with them, so that the frame doesn't collapse dominoes fashion during construction and resists movement afterwards.

First picture below shows angle bracing- down along a path from brace to brace that is at an angle to vertical and horizontal, if that makes sense.  See if you can find all five braces there... ::)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/five_braces.jpg)

Foolish me!  Figured I'd better check and make sure five were showing- only four that I can see in that picture, but the one below actually shows five- two main ones centered that crisscross to prevent tilting in either direction sideways, and others that prevent twisting and turning...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/criss_cross_braces.jpg)

There are metal spacers showing in the pictures- these aren't really braces and carry very little load.  They're used to quickly space trusses 2' OC without having to whip out a tape every time, and they do provide enough bracing to allow you time to nail in the real things.  I used a number of spacers in this house as well- 2X4 or 2X6 cut to fit between trusses NOT 2' OC, and there were a lot of those- these spacers lock the trusses into position while you're working and help stiffen up the frame as well.  With 44' long trusses, they were essential for keeping spacing from one end to the other- usually had 4 or 5 of this located strategically along the upper and lower parts of the trusses.

Last, and certainly way overkill except for the occasional hurricane- hurricane ties and log screws to hold down trusses to the frame below.  Each truss bottom chord is anchored in at least four places to the first floor frame with one or both of these- usually 8" log screws although sometimes had to use a 12" to get through the angle down to the top plate.

And really last: the fact that the bent in the main living area is braced well, and solid as a rock.  This adds to the stiffness of the entire frame and kind of anchors the second floor to the first in a more solid way.  As I mentioned, I used decking adhesive on all the OSB-to-truss or frame joist followed with huriquake nails that you just can't pull out without tearing up the wood.  This provides additional bracing in two dimensions and greatly stiffens the frame throughout.  So, back to the actual work in progress... :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 05, 2011, 06:29:25 PM
Well, I got my wish answered from two days ago, but 2 hours too soon.  Was in the midst of finishing up decking over the dormers and had just started to put down felt and lathing when wife called- surprise birthday lunch for the oldest grandson, who will be the upstairs troll in the new house.  Couldn't pass up on free food (especially when I'm paying so everyone else gets it free.   :D  ) so took a quick shower, went to lunch and came home stuffed with Mexican food- wrong thing to eat in the middle of a hot day.  Had to cool off and cogitate for a while (you know the kind, where you reflect on past mistakes and near-future tasks so you can get organized, always done with eyes closed in a reclining position).  Woke up and dang if it didn't come a downpour- buckets, literally, which came in through the last bit of roof over the dormers not covered with felt.  Spent half an hour atoning for my lazy ways by sweeping water out of the first floor where it had accumulated but not as bad as with no decking on the rest of the roof.  Long story short: got both dormer roofs decked, felted and lathed, east one first, west one second:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/east_dormer_decked.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/west_dormer_decked.jpg)

Went ahead and finished putting felt down even though the OSB was still damp- figured that with the heat the felt will generate in full sun, they'll dry out pretty quick and any mold that tries to grow will get burned out.  At least that's the hope, but with rain forecast for tonight, tomorrow and tomorrow night, I couldn't take a chance on more saturation of the frame.  Fact is, finished up half an hour ago, and now it's raining again, so I guess that was a good compromise.

Now to fly rafters, barge rafters or (my new term) flying barge rafters.   :D  Doesn't that make you think of something massive hanging up there by a thread?  Speaking of which, I ended up doing one dormer with the outlooks nailed to a plank that is nailed to two rafters on the inside.  There's a 1 1/2" extension on the plank extending out past the outlook that the outer (actual) fly rafter sits on and then you nail (and/or screw) it into the outlooks.  The ladder built system involves just that: laying out a 16 1/2" wide ladder (outside to outside) that will be the frame your decking sits on and your (my) soffit is nailed or screwed up into  Using concrete and cellulose hardiplanks for the soffits (couldn't get the hardi soffits locally so I'll just use two of the lap siding planks side by side and caulk).  Thought about pre-nailing them to the ladder before putting it up but glad I didn't: would have restricted access for the nail gun and would have weighed just a little too much to wrestle into place by my lonesome.  As it was, the top end was almost sitting right anyway, so I nailed the lower end in place and then the upper, filling in after to secure it.  Or so I thought: even with 3" ring shank nails, the fly rafter was wobbly and unsteady (ignore that nail that missed in the picture, it was the only one).  Tried hammering everything up tight but that didn't help so I screwed everything together- fly rafter to outlooks, outlooks to inner rafter of the ladder, and that rafter to the outside truss of the dormer roof.  All in all, still wasn't as tight and strong as the other method.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/barge_rafter_ladder.jpg)

Now to problems with that method: while it's lots easier to do alone, and is overall much stronger, the shelf that the outlook sits on takes up space.  When I start putting sheathing on the dormers tomorrow, that will leave a gap at the top between outlooks.  No big deal, really, since I'll put trim to seal up between sheathing and soffit but the ladder method would leave less of a gap.  In the same vein, with the ladder, you can nail/screw soffit to the outlooks and to the inner and outer rafters of the ladder- much more secure, I guess, but what kind of wear and tear is there on a soffit anyway?  Just to finish up that area, I'll go ahead and install insulation from the roof while I'm putting up sheathing rather than worrying about it later- better access and much easier.  Also, I pre-painted the soffits and they're ready to go up now, even though it rained on them, the paint had time to dry first, thank goodness.  

Tomorrow I'll finalize the window and door list and put that for bids at a couple of the supply houses.  Haven't bid much so far, been going with subcontractors I know and trust on the one hand, and the wife found a bunch of 10% off coupons for Lowes which makes their prices pretty good on most of the nails, lumber (boy, did I ever underestimate how much I'd need when I was cutting on the mill) and supplies needed (and tools, of course- best time to buy tools is when the finance officer knows you really need them, even if you could get by...   :)  ). Costs are adding up, though, and we're getting to the moderately expensive stuff I can't make or do myself (yet)- doors and windows, metal roofing (which I'll install but can't make), HVAC, light fixtures, sinks and tubs... the list goes on and on.   :(

Oh, well, the house is shaping up so much better than I expected, and costs are within budget so far, that I can only rejoice in the progress.  This will be one solid, durable house- not as much as a true timber frame, perhaps, but still a place to live in and pass on to the next generation.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 06, 2011, 07:53:07 PM
Another day but not another dollar- at least not coming in, and thankfully none went out today either, except for gas for my truck (ouch- while it's hard to break a $100 bill at most places, the gas rip-off-atoriums seem to have no problem taking them, and usually keeping the whole thing.   >:(  )

Finished up the sheathing on the dormer frames- worked out pretty good once I got my head screwed on right this morning.  Did a couple of small stupid things right off the bat (not worth mentioning) and sat down to re-group.  Figured out that the best way to do the double-sloped sheathing was to measure carefully all four dimensions, assuming a full 8' footing at the bottom- worked out alright on the first one, just had to trim a little, then I used that as a pattern for the other three.  Still hot and sweaty work, on black felt that is really great at gathering in and holding the sun's heat.  Also got soffit up on one side of one of the dormers- realized again why I really hate phillips head screws!   >:(  Even with an impact driver, I was not able to position myself to really lean into the drive, plus the dang screws I'd bought (not cheap either) wouldn't start into the cement board.  There were deck screws that I figured were safe enough being on the underside of the overhangs- no moisture to collect there, plus they're coated.  I've used the special screws sold for cement board on the last house- way more expensive, but I guess I'll try them again, or maybe switch to stainless- just remembered I have some of those I'd ordered for future projects and promptly forgot I had till just now... duh!   :D  What's really funny is McFeely's just had a sale on stainless screws so I bought some more, not remembering that I already had some.   :D  :D

Got so excited about having the dormers more or less rain proof that I decided to fit one of the windows as shown below.  Problem is, I was tired by then and had just decided to that I really should put on housewrap before it rains again... and then forgot.   :(  Put it in anyway, just so i could see how it looks and show it to the grandson and daughter.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/decking_all_done.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/decking_done_west_window_in.jpg)

Last is a picture of Grandson River "holding up" the house with his hands- he does have a sense of humor, that boy!  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/Grandson_holding_up_house.jpg)

We'll be out of pocket for the next four days or so- needed break from the house and now that it's more or less dried in, the timing is perfect: grandson's boyscout troop is taking a camping trip to watch the last shuttle launch, ever.  We leave in the morning, weather or no and the forecast is not good.  They're predicting only a 30% chance that it will lift on on schedule on Friday, a little better odds on Saturday, but we're going to have a dozen very disappointed scouts if it doesn't go at all (and parents and grandparents for that matter!).  Wish us well- 10 hours each way of listening to teenagers and pre-teens sing all the loud and somewhat annoying songs they know.  Guess I'll take my 3-year old mp3 player that holds a whopping 50 songs, only slightly more than the scouts know.   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 06, 2011, 08:26:38 PM
Have a safe trip Lj, and I hope that it lifts.  Watching one lift off was always a dream of mine, but I guess that is why they call them dreams.   ;)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Buck on July 06, 2011, 08:59:39 PM
Safe travels, can't wait to hear about the trip.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on July 09, 2011, 07:55:59 PM
I cut stair stringers a few days ago.  Used the calculator and plotted the points.  Plotting the points is the secret to keep the steps the same...thanks for the tip Lj.  First time ever...all four were perfect the first time.  I didn't even have to erase pencil marks in the wrong place.

So, got to thinking about a calculator for baluster spacing.   They've never been much of a problem but why not do it the easy way.  That worked well also and all the spaces are the same.  The calculator did point out I'm about 50 pickets short.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on July 09, 2011, 09:00:48 PM
Quote from: Larry on July 09, 2011, 07:55:59 PM
The calculator did point out I'm about 50 pickets short.

That is not too bad.  A know quite a few people that are missing a lot more than that  :D.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on July 10, 2011, 07:28:32 AM
 :D :D :D :D

Kathy has been telling me for years I was a few short, so I guess the calculator didn't do me all that much good. ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on July 10, 2011, 09:33:08 AM
I heard that the shuttle was about to dock with the space station. So did it launch on time the other day?
I didn't hear if it did or not.

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 10, 2011, 08:58:59 PM
Just got back to town so I'll update on the shuttle launch first: when we got there Th evening it was raining off and on but we went ahead and set up tents in a drizzle, then had dinner and back to bed for an early morning attempt to view the shuttle.  Rained in the night and the forecast was only 30% probability of a launch on Fr, and maybe 40% on Sat, but better on Sunday.  Problem was, we had to have the church van we'd borrowed back by Monday morning and I hate driving though the night- way too dangerous.  So we get up at 6 am, grab easy to eat food and drive an hour to what we thought would be a great viewing place- which it was- but the place was already packed with people who'd spent the night there plus earlier risers.  Part of the troop went exploring and found a nearby bridge that had been closed- turned out to be excellent place to view the launch.  Still less than 40% chance of a launch at 10 but we persevered- had no where else to go anyway and who knows?  In the last Star Trek movie (the prequel), there's one scene where Spock tells Kirk that the chances are less then 4.5% and Kirk replies, "Don't worry, it will be alright."

Well, turned out at 15 minutes before launch time, they started checking everyone on the various stations (weather being just one of them, and at that, it was weather at the launch site plus to possible landing sites in case of an emergency): every check came back ok to launch- I can't tell you how the excitement was building at that point, especially when the local weather check came back good-to-go (which they do with fly-over by two astronauts in T-38's, may be more for show than anything, but neat nonetheless).  In the last 30 seconds or so, one of the sensors failed to report and they put on hold which sounded ominous- they had to swivel a camera to visually confirm that one of the lock-down clamps had actually released.  They restarted countdown within seconds, and then fire was spewing out around the base, clearly visible from our viewing bridge 10 miles away.  The shuttle, boosters and fuel tank slowly rose above the pad and then disappeared in the clouds- sure didn't look like the visibility window they had been saying was needed, but who am I to argue?  A few seconds later, we heard the full thrust and afterburners kick in and the noise got much louder, but sadly, we'd lost it to view for the duration.

It was amazing how the crowd waited patiently for the whole morning, then rose to their feet during the final countdown and burst into cheers when the flames burst forth- what a feeling!  I know the scouts will remember it for the rest of their lives, as will us leaders who went.  What they may not fully realize, though, is the apparent total disarray that exists at NASA and the lack of any vision or long-range plan. The kids kept asking us during the tour of the space center the next day what was next?  And we didn't have an answer, and neither did any of the NASA people.  Sad to see how we could have lost momentum in such a vast and important undertaking- the space station has no real purpose, and we basically gave up on the moon which we could have colonized by now if we'd focused resources on that instead of a shuttle program that had no real goal.  Oh, well, not my business anymore... but sure wish the next generation had something they could look forward to in space- it is awe inspiring, and if you ever get the chance, spend a day at the Kennedy Space Center.  The tour is worth the price, and the size and complexity of the projects NASA has succeeded on in the past truly mind-boggling.  And we all know that we all need our minds boggled now and then.   :D

Larry: glad that calculator worked for you!  Also glad to hear it works for baluster spacing- that's on my list of up-coming projects for the house.  Speaking of which: back to work in the morning, got gable ends to frame in, sheathing to finish up, facia and soffits to hang, and maybe even some siding to get up as well- not all tomorrow, of course, but soon, soon. :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on July 10, 2011, 09:38:36 PM
Back to the Salt Mines  :).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 10, 2011, 10:09:49 PM
Thanks for the launch update Lj.  Now you can get back to building.   smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 13, 2011, 09:12:25 PM
Update on the launch and the house- two for the price of one!   :o

Don't know what I was thinking in my last post, but we'd taken a few pictures of the launch and more interestingly, of the Kennedy Space Center.  Won't bore you with all of them, and because of the clouds on launch day, we only got a couple point-and-shoot-as-fast-as-you-can pictures of the shuttle actually going up.  Interesting fact about the space center: sign there says it gets no taxpayer dollars (the part open to the public) and relies solely on ticket sales for sustaining the park.  Could be why some of the exhibits are kinda dated and not very informative, but most of it was fantastic.  Here's an example of what you can see:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/Kennedy_space_center.jpg)

Best part of the center, though, is what you see on the bus tour, included in the price of admission.  First you visit one of the observation towers, which is ok but not very exciting.  Next is the Atlas and Apolo/Gemini museum (I guess you'd call it that) where you can get some feel for the size of the launch vehicles we USED to have but stopped building because the shuttle was going to be the space truck that solved all of our launch needs (sold to Congress as "one launch per week forever!"  yeah, right).  What a load!  Sorry to be bitter, but that decision was made for political reasons to funnel money into states and industrial contractors pockets, and was not the best decision for the space program.  In fact, here's an example of how bad that decision was: despite the trillions (did I say trillions?) of dollars spent on space science, exploration and joy rides in the shuttle era, manned activities in space have actually declined dramatically, and have we ever gone back to the moon, which is the next logical place for us to colonize and take up permanent residence?  No, and why not?  Good question... oh, well, not really my problem any more and not worth getting upset about now that we've ceded the space race to the Chinese.

So, back to building a house: first thing I noticed when I walked in after our adventure to never-never land was how unsafe I'd let the site become.  Set to work building a railing for the stairway (doubt if daughter will want to keep it although it does have some of that pretty pink lumber in it   :D  ) and an enclosure for the balcony to keep grandkids (and myself) from falling off.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/stair_railing.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/balcony_blocked.jpg)

Then went to work on odds and ends: set up a chop saw upstairs since that was where I'll be working doing interior framing for a while.  Cleaned up lots of debris that had accumulated and made it hard to move around safely or lay out walls on the floor.  Then started putting up the east gable framing so I could get some sheathing up on that end and make it more water tight.  I'd forgotten how challenging framing walls under sloping ceiling is: had never done enough to get good at it and develop my own bag of tricks for doing it fast and right, but now's the time: got lots of these walls to build upstairs and one under the stairs downstairs.

First thing on the gable wall was to build the middle section since I could use the 2X6 studs I'd ordered: wrong!  Forgot that the trusses had been designed for exactly the right height from the top of the bottom chord to the bottom of the ceiling chord for stud length 2X's with a sill plate and two top plates.  Foolish me: I'd put in the 3/4" T&G Advantech flooring which made my studs just that much too long.  Decide to go ahead and cut the gable end studs to fit- only 10 or so.  Did do things a little rear-end backwards though- guess it's one of the tricks for framing walls inside- and nailed up the upper top plate first to the end truss, then built the wall with sill and top plate like normal, raised it and hammered it into place.  Little scary for me working at this with nothing between me and 10' down but lots of air.  First picture below shows the upper top plate for the south slanted wall, second shows the gable framing complete.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/top_plate_goes_up_first.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/gable_end_framed.jpg)

You might notice that one of the studs on the right side is a little out of line, not quite perpendicular.  That's because I foolishly tried to build part of the slanted wall on the floor- dumb.  With a slope, it's almost impossible to get your stud heights and locations close enough to line up the sill and top plates before you raise it.  I thought that might be the case so I only had two studs nailed in when I tried to fit it in- took me half an hour cutting, pounding and thinking bad thoughts about my "experiments" before I got it in place.  Should have just put up the plates and cut the studs to fit, then toe nailed them in like the professionals do.  All sloped walls from here on out are being built this way now.  At least it proved to me (yet again!   >:(  ) my own fallibility

Next started work on framing in the rooms at that end.  First did a lot of touch-up work around and in the dormer window frame- dormers are a whole lot more work than I'd thought before I got into my first ones here.  Fun but slow, and needing lots of fill-in for drywall and flooring.  Firred out the side walls so they'd line up with the rest of the trusses, added nailers at the base between studs for attaching trim to after the floor is laid, and added nailers at the top for ceiling drywall.  Then moved onto the main wall separating the two upstairs bedrooms- again ran into the problem of studs being a floor-thickness too long but this time went ahead and used the studs to build the wall.  Instead of a top plate, I used 1X4 or plywood strips hammered in after the wall was up to make it tight against the bottom of the trusses.  Then drilled holes through the top plate into the trusses and used 6" log screws to really tighten everything up- I can tell you that wall isn't going anywhere!   :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/gable_and_bedroom.jpg)

Laid out the closet for the boy's bedroom but didn't like the height- regular door would be too high to fit and it's about 6' at the door sloping down to 4' plus at the back.  Got to talk to the daughter and grandson about relocating the closet to the middle of the room, although with a sloped ceiling like that, you have to use your space carefully so as not to feel closed in too much.  Instead of finishing that up, went to work on the side wall next to the staircase- again a combination of sloped plus 4 studs with two plates and some shim to make it come out tight.  I'll get pictures of that tomorrow plus the bathroom (that I haven't started yet).

I have to admit that it sure is nice to work inside- hot, yes, but at least out of direct sun that this summer is frying everything outside.  At least we've had rain yesterday and today- great for the plants and ponds but still some getting inside so I need to finish sheathing, windows and roofing soonest (that's astronaut talk, did you notice?).  Tried to order metal roofing but the company I've done business with before went out of it...   >:(  Found another source in the area but their address in the phone book didn't specify north 49 or south, so wasted almost an hour hunting for them.  On the way back, stopped at Lowe's to pick up some nails and finalize window bid- millwork manager was out today and the clerk was a goofball, bless her little pea-pickin' heart.  She couldn't figure out how to use the scanner (or maybe it was broke) so she fiddled around, tried to move to a different register (that was already occupied ??) and then entered the stock number for the nails by hand.  Then she couldn't figure out how to use the $10 off coupon I brought in, so I gave up and came back to get some work done.  Some days it's Apollo 11, some days Apollo 13...   ;)

Well, you have to work through the bad days or the good days never get here. Tomorrow will be productive and everything will come together just right!  Oh, and the temperature will be a balmy 72 with no humidity or rain.   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: jamesamd on July 16, 2011, 02:07:19 PM
I just caught-up on this ,LJ.
You can be proud of all,You have accomplished so far.
Jim smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 16, 2011, 06:21:55 PM
Thanks, Jamesamd- yes, progress has been steady if not fast.  Good news for the week: ordered both the windows and the metal roofing.  We decided on vinyl windows as the best compromise of price and performance- low E and all that.  Back and forth on color for the roof- I voted for white or at least very light colors to reduce heat absorption in the summer.  Did lots of reading on various sites and actually found numbers for various energystar ratings- amount of heat absorbed as well as the amount re-emitted so it's not absorbed.  Even the darker colors have pretty good values, and overall, metal roofs are claimed several places to be much cooler overall than shingles.  Daughter has to live there, though, and she decided on rustic red which is pretty dark.  Actually, it's about the same color as I have on most of the outbuildings, although none are near enough her place to see that.

Friday I managed to get some interior framing done, mainly the boy's closet in his bedroom and half of the west gable end which will have a small sliding window over the desks that will be there.  Would have liked bigger for more natural light but limited by the roof slope and the height of desks plus stuff on top...  Always compromises it seems.  Did solve the closet height problem though by just making it a little bigger- moved the inside wall farther in enough so that a regular door should fit, maybe with a little bit of trimming but doable.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/grandsons_closet_roughed_in.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3574/west_gable_half_done.jpg)

Went out today to work on east gable sheathing and trim- tedious work.  Best process I can come up with once I have the scaffolding in place is to put up the soffit first, which is in two planks that measure exactly 11 1/2" and fits exactly to the outlook nailers under the outlooks and holding them and the outside trim in place.  Made the mistake of putting up one sheet of the sheathing first and set it too high so the soffit wouldn't fit, but took it down to trim and work the soffit first from here on out.  All in all, did more "getting ready to work" than actually working- putting up scaffolding, setting up a cutting station for sheathing and trim, getting nail gun and hoses run, getting stainless screws and impact driver in position... it all takes time before you can actually do anything.  Finally got it all set up and the first set of soffit, trim and sheathing up and it was time for lunch.

Other good news is the rain, which we've had for several days now.  Ponds were really low and the grass was disappearing fast but the rains have brought everything back to normal... which means, of course, having to cut the grass again, something I haven't had to do for months now.  Broke out the lawnmower and tractor with finish mower, got them tuned up and running, cut some and the rain started so came in to do inside work.  Bad part of our thunderstorms this time of year is the lightning- usually never have it close enough to matter, but last week we had one storm where I swore it hit several times right behind the barn- turns out that it sounded just like that because it did: found a pine tree today not 200 yards from the house that had been struck repeatedly, if the multiple strips of flayed bark mean anything.  Blew most of the branches off one side of the poor thing and certainly fried the water in the cambium layer so the tree is probably dead and needs to come down.  I'll get to it real soon now, just about the time it falls down from termites probably.   :D

Plan for the coming week then: windows should be in mid-week, metal roofing on Tuesday, so I'll need to get the last of the gable work done as soon as possible- sheathing, soffit and fascia (not necessarily in that order)- and then roof.  I may roof first, though, so I can stop the constant in-flow of dripping water everytime it rains, which is pretty much everyday here lately.  Can't be good for the wood or the felt, and I found lots more mold growing all over the exterior wood and the interior framing that's getting wet- can't do anything about that till next week, though, so maybe tomorrow I can get some of the catch-up work done.  

Oh, and talked to my son the plumber about bathroom upstairs, which is now situated in a sloping part of the layout.  Turning the tub so that the shower unit is to the south will work, although we'll have to trim the enclosure to fit the slope.  He'll order stack-out supplies on Monday along with the upstairs tub so we can set that in place with just one wall framed up and put up the rest around it- lots easier than trying to twist and turn it through the doorway after it's all framed up.  All in all, next week should see major progress: a roof, all exterior walls sheathed and covered with housewrap, the dormers trimmed out and done including siding which I'll try to do while I still have lathing to use as walking blocks, and plumbing stacked out next weekend.  It's good to set your goals high, so that even when you don't meet them, at least you get lots done.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 19, 2011, 06:01:13 PM
Rained almost all day yesterday but got some interior framing done- second bedroom upstairs and some of the walls for the upstairs bath- left front part open to slide the tub in later.  Got depressed being out in the drizzle all morning (as different from just being soaking wet all the time from sweat  :D ) so knocked off at 11 to work on my "real job" stuff- that's really heating up and found out last night I have to go to Jacksonville for three days and listen to a bunch of question-and-answer sessions.  Should be really boring except for the possibility that someone might let something slip that would be useful... at least it pays well enough to fund the house we're building.   :)

Other good news: metal roofing showed up today so I drove in to pick it up with my 16' trailer.  Problem was, the longest pieces (most of them, in fact) are 26' which left a really bad sag at the end of the trailer with the metal almost touching the ground.  Luckily, the distributor had a 12' pallet handy, so we slid that under and blocked up the part at the end of the trailer.  That got the metal up but put too much of the load on the back part of the trailer, which I found out about as I was heading home: highway almost all the way and when I got up to 45, that old trailer decided it was really a fish (maybe phishfarmer can relate?) and started moving back and forth behind the truck.  Luckily, I'd eased up on the speed, half way suspecting this might happen and was able to slow down nice and easy without mishap.  Got to practice my "drive like a farmer" routine at 40 all the way home.  Since that was only 5 miles from there, the line of cars behind me only got to a dozen or so before I turned off to our place.  Posted speed limit on Highway 11 here is 55 but everyone goes 60-65 and the road is easily good for that.  Sheriff has been hounding the state government to finally let them use radar guns again, but that won't happen if they have any sense: back when sheriff-run speed traps were common here as a way of making a little extra income (either above or below board, depending), things were really nasty.  Representatives finally came to their senses and outlawed radar guns except for the highway patrol- one of the few times we actually got representative government.  Maybe the federal house and senate will come to their senses and make a deal with Obama to reduce debt, get our finances in order and let us move on- doubtful, but possible.

Sorry, should have talked about food instead of politics- a whole lot easier to digest!   ;)  Roofing is now scheduled for Saturday and all my plans for the week are shot- all in the pursuit of funds to finance this adventure... such is life.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 19, 2011, 08:57:21 PM
We dealt with that rain all weekend in Pascagoula.  Our little baseball players really got wet.
Keep up the good work on the house Lj.  It may well be September before I can do significant work on the Cabin.  Saw jobs plus a Michigan trip have really piled up on me.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on July 19, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
LJ,

Did you say once that you preferred a 18V impact driver to a screwgun for running deck screws and such in? Didn't strip the heads and a easier drive?

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 19, 2011, 10:11:33 PM
First found out about impact drivers at a timber framing convention- one of the demonstrators was drilling 10" log screws into logs to hold them while he worked on them.  Came home and bought one, and I'd never go back to using a drill for driving screws.  Caveat: I would also never use phillip head screws again (or flat-head screwdriver screws for sure).  I only buy screws that have square drive, torq drive or there's a new blunt tip phillips which is not really one- acts more like a square drive and you can actually sub a square drive to put them in.

I've yet to have a square drive strip on me, although I have twisted off stainless steel screw heads with them.  Same for torq drives, and with the log screws, that's all you can get anyway.  With those kinds of screw heads and an impact driver, things just work like they're supposed to- and isn't that fun?   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 20, 2011, 07:51:26 AM
It's much easier to install that roofing with an impact driver also.  That is what the professionals use.   ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on July 20, 2011, 10:00:53 AM
I was using my screw gun to drive in some 2.5 deck screws, as usual it slipped and I lost a small chunk of meat and some red gravy >:(. Happens way too often even using a sleeve. Stripping a screw is a whole nother issue...... :(
Well I'm glad I remembered what you said so I'm off to the big blue store to get me a impact driver later.

Thanks! :) :) :) :) 8)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 21, 2011, 05:36:38 AM
Dewalt makes good tools, and I've had real good luck with their impact drivers- except when you drop part of a frame on them (see page 5 of this thread).  Batteries hold up fair and if you decide to go with just one brand, they're interchangable.  I've bought several individual tools and package deals so I have several chargers and batteries which makes it nice when you have more than one person using them.  Biggest problem is battery lifetime- they only seem to last a couple of years and then you turn them in for recycle but without any rebate or anything.  Wish they had a program like 2-for-1 dead batteries for a new one or something.

Anyway, good luck Raider- hope the hand heals alright.  I've done that, too, with drill drivers, but only once with an impact and that was my fault- trying to force it into a too-tight space at the wrong angle.   ;)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 21, 2011, 08:41:18 AM
Ridgid makes good tools and have a lifetime warranty.  Their batteries have a 3 year warranty.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on July 21, 2011, 06:15:20 PM
I think I'll buy a Rigid cordless next time because of that guarantee.  I don't get more than two years out of batteries no matter what color.

Just finished putting in 2,000 3" T25 star drive deck screws.  Not one broke or stripped out and only used one bit doing it.  Used my old 14V Bosch...the chuck is junk like the rest of the Bosch drills and the drill is too heavy for its power.  It made it through the deck job with old batteries.

A lot of guys putting up metal have switched to the little Bosch lithium drivers because there pre-drilling.  I got one of those and they are great, but not for a deck.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 22, 2011, 06:54:02 AM
Actually, Dewalt now sells the lithium ion battery packs as well and have down-sized tools to go with them- drills and drivers, specifically.

When I picked up the metal roofing for the house, the distributor said that when you pre-drill, you have to sweep or wash off the shavings before you put them up.  I'd noticed on the last roof I did that even when you don't pre-drill, the self-tapping screws (which require that you really bear down on the driver to get them to actually self-tap) pull out tiny ribbons of steel that rust and stain the surface.  Guess no matter what you do, you have to clean the roof when you're done.

So tomorrow we start roofing- should be fun without much help, although I may have a line on a temporary helper for a couple of days.  Would sure speed things up so I don't have to climb down to position every sheet so that when I climb back up I can pull it up and place it on the roof.  Gets to be a whole lot of exercise.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 22, 2011, 07:39:52 AM
Lj, I give the screw a good tap with a hammer.  This pre-punches your starter hole without removing metal.  You will not have those ribbons that might distort the neoprene washer or cause rust.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on July 22, 2011, 07:46:27 AM
Pre-drill a big stack...say about 1/4" thick.  That way you only have to get rid of shavings on the top sheet.

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on July 22, 2011, 09:56:01 PM
My metal roof is going up right now.  I am having it installed versus doing it myself.  My women aren't about to get on the roof, and it is only me and myself.  Anyway, I went with the expensive screws with the pan head that fits down totally over the washer after it is compressed.  This protects the washer and prevents it from being squeezed out to the side from too much pressure.  The screws alone cost $850, but it is worth it given that they will not leak.  Plus, the total area going under metal including the car port and the firewood shed is 58 squares, so it is a large area. 

The guy installing the roof said that you would be surprised how many times he has gone to metal roofs to replace the cheap screws installed by someone else that leak.  Don't go with cheap screws.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 23, 2011, 05:28:28 PM
Thanks, MM and WDH: tried tapping the screws on the first sheet up- laid it in place on the east edge of the north slope (sounds like some kind of backpack or clothing ad), got everything lined up and square, then measured the edge placement across the top and bottom so I can keep the sheets parallel and square to the bottom drip edge.  Then had to finish putting in screws in that sheet since I hadn't pre-drilled: not fun!  Couldn't stand on the metal even with sneakers and one foot square on top of a screw top in the row below, just too slippery for me.  Had to lean in from the edge where I was kneeling on the felt and lathing strips to get all those screws in.  Had help today for a few hours so we pulled three sheets of metal, marked and drilled holes and then slid them up.  With two people, it's easy: place the leading edge on the roof, I climb up and pull while my helper pushes from below, then holds it in place while I position that panel and set the first screw.  Easy with two, next to impossible with one and 26' sheets of 26 gauge metal.   ;)  The pre-drilled holes make it a piece of pie (movie 2010?) to set the screws quickly and safely, so we finished up a couple sheets before it started to rain: rain on metal is a no-fly zone!  or maybe rather a go-fly zone!  At one point as it started to rain, I made the mistake of just stepping on the metal for an instance and almost went down- told my helper, "If you see or hear me coming down, just get out of the way!"  He wouldn't be able to catch me anyway, seeing as how he weighs about half what I do.   :D

Well, the rain's stopped so I'm back to see what I can do alone- there's always soffit and facia to put up: yea!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on July 25, 2011, 04:48:16 PM
Even though I cut perfect stringers, :) the builder should really use them the same day. :o  If they lay around for a week treated syp will twist, warp, bend, cup, and turn into pretzels.  This will require a wheelbarrow load of clamps to force the stringers into some semblance of straight. ???

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/steps.jpg)

Tomorrow I'll start the railings and posts to match the rest of the deck.

Kathy can't understand why I don't work in the cool AC and do the finish work in the house.  Minor problem...my builders risk insurance turns into a home owners policy next week.  The stupid insurance company frowns on decks without steps or railings. :o

I overheated this afternoon cause I pushed myself.  Nice and cool now playin at the FF.  Foolish on my part...you guys take care.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 29, 2011, 04:57:14 PM
Nice work, Larry- I really like the wide stairs like that.  Isn't it strange, though, that as much as we work with wood, it always surprises us when it follows that Mother Nature law: "wood moves."??   :o :D

Well, last few days have been lots of work under the category of "this and that with nothing major to show for it."  Did some exterior trim work- soffits here and there, fascia in a couple places I could reach, and lots of work on the dormers.  There is one thing I've learned over the years: I hate ladders, especially when you have to go up and down dozens and dozens of times working alone.  No matter how loud I shout, the cutter down on the chopsaw doesn't hear a word and can't cut a lick till I go down and measure the board and pull down the handle.... go figure!  :)  So the one thing I always do, if at all possible, is leave an access port of some kind from the top floor inside to the roof outside.  One of the unexpected benefits of dormer windows is that they are also doors!  Put a step stool in front and with lathing outside to step onto, going in and out is so much easier then up and down a ladder!  Here's my door on this house, from the inside and then the outside.  Today I must have gone in and out 30 or 40 times measuring for siding on the dormer, cutting the lumber, carrying it out and putting it up, then repeating with the next two or three.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/exit_to_the_roof.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/door_to_the_roof.jpg)

I find I can only remember two or three measurements for each trip- if I try four, I lose all four.  Remember the line in the Monty Python "In search of the Holy Grail?"  The number is three- two is too small and four is right out!  Just to prove I haven't been totally lazy (although the thought keeps cropping up), the pictures below show, first, a dormer with metal roofing on, second a trim detail on one of the dormers, and third the siding in place on one wall of the west dormer.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/east_dormer_roof.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/dormer_drip_edge.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/west_dormer_sided.jpg)

Next is the brace I built to hold up part of the hardiboard soffitt- floppy stuff that will break in an instant if not supported properly.  I screw the brace down, slide the soffit up and in place, then line up the lower edge to screw up.  Then work my way up screwing in the stainless steel screws designed for this.  Got to go back and touch up the paint where the screws are- I always pre-paint since touch up is a whole lot easier than laying on my back with paint dripping in my eyes.   >:(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/fascia_support_brace%7E0.jpg)

More later when I get more time, got to get ready for the drama camp presentation (grandson is in it) that my wife does each summer with the kids- week long intro to drama and its nuances, whatever they are- I just like to watch the kids have fun.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on July 29, 2011, 05:16:04 PM
LJ
Where is grandson River when you are building? Seems he would be an ideal second hand helper.
Maybe too young or involved in so many summer things?
I hear ya on the running up and down the ladder thing. Doesn't make one any younger.

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on July 29, 2011, 05:52:00 PM
It's good to see you still plugging along.  Mid September will be my earliest possible work on my Cabin Addition, and I seriously doubt then.  Saw jobs are stacked up.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 29, 2011, 06:19:41 PM
MM: yeah, isn't it sad the "real work" interferes with fun work?

Beenthere: very observant, and River does help when there's something that a 13 year old can do without much supervision.  Recently though he's been tied up in drama camp all week and spending time with his dad (broken home).  More to the point, almost all of what I've been involved with over the last 3-4 weeks has been up on the roof and I've not let anyone else up there, even volunteer help with some experience: a 7/12 roof is just too full of bad surprises to take chances with someone else getting hurt...

Don't get me wrong: I'm not expert on working on such a slope but confident enough in my own abilities to know when to compensate and how for my own abilities or lack thereof.  I guess 50 or 60 years of experience leads to a reasonable level of confidence.  at least till I make a really dumb mistake.   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 31, 2011, 07:47:16 PM
Short update: been siding the dormers with board and batten to contrast the lap siding that will go on the house proper.  Seems out of step so I thought I'd detail my thinking on this and the steps involved in the way I'm doing things.  This is the first 7/12 roof I've worked on as mostly I try to keep things a little flatter so I don't have as many opportunities to verify the effects of gravity and an 8-12' fall on an aging body.   >:(  I think 7/12 is about the limit of what I would build from scratch given all the requirements for decking, felting, lathing and putting on metal.  Shingles aren't as hard by a long shot- you can use nail on braces that come up easily as you move up the roof- not so with metal since you want it all in one long piece to minimize leaks (at least that's my thinking).  Walking on metal roofing at 7/12: not so much; more of a controlled slide to the next screw and hope your shoes grab cause it's a long way down.  Put up four sheets on the north half since there are no dormers or breaks on that side: had to have a helper hold the 26' sheets in place while I put in the first couple of screws to hold it and line things up right.  From there I could lean in far enough to just reach the farthest pre-drilled hole for the screw adjacent to the last piece.  Haven't had to actually walk on the metal yet and not sure I could anyway, which leads me to my main point: I don't plan on ever walking on it unless I have a safety harness and rope on me, and that really slows down work.  It also means you can't easily climb up and down off the roof to cut siding or bring up fascia and soffit and trim and all the stuff that goes with it.

So what's my point really?  It's this: if I'd had some crew come in to roof, they'd have done it fast and furious and the whole roof and metal trim would be up in a day or so.  Great!  Except now I'd have to go up to put on siding on the dormers, walking on that already installed metal.  Instead, I put on metal as I go: just finished up the west dormer, both sides with all the metal roof on top of the dormer, the soffit, fascia, drip edges and flashing at the bottom.  Yeah, I know, the flashing is supposed to go on after you get the metal down below it, and THEN you put up siding, again on slippery metal roof too steep to kneel on.  Walking on the lathing?  Easy and safe.  Going in and out of my "access door" a few dozen times a day?  No problem just hard on the joints and muscles and that's going to happen anyway.  Key is, I can work safely and efficiently while the metals not on, and once it is, not at all.

So tomorrow I have help, and most of the week as well. This means I can put up roofing one sheet at a time, on my own schedule, cutting and fitting around the dormers as needed, but never having to actually walk on the metal except for a few times to put in the screws "behind" the dormer on the sheet that butts up to it.  Safety rope will be out and on then, with someone watching just in case.  Oh, and did I mention that I really don't like heights?  Not because they're high, but only when I'm not completely in control of the pull of gravity trying to bring me down- sounds like a '60's ballad, doesn't it?

Anyway, doing most or all of the various steps myself allows a lot better control and more efficient overall use of my time and energy.  Sure, I could have hired crews to do each step and had it done faster and much more professional looking maybe, but cost?  Ouch, hurts to even think about it.  My goal is to finish the house at roughly one-third what it would have cost to sub out all the various steps, not counting general contractor cost if I farmed that out as well... Well, I may be cheap, but at least I don't owe anybody anything for the place so far, and we're roughly two-thirds done.  Laugh if you want, and rightly so: I used to tell my students that the first 90% of any job took 90% of the time and effort, but then the last 10% took the other 90%.   :D

Sorry for the ramblings but it's nice to not be dead tired at the end of the day and too foggy to think clearly, not that being tired has ever been an excuse...  Took the whole day off to bush hog before late church, have lunch with the family and play with the grandkids, relax some and bush hog some more to get caught up on the rain-plus-sun induced growth spurt that made the farm into a mini-jungle over the last couple of weeks.  Now it's at least a shorter jungle out there.   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on July 31, 2011, 08:02:38 PM
lj
I'd think about rigging some scaffolding that fits around the dormer, that possibly hooks over the ridge to keep it from sliding. Don't have a good thought how to suggest doing that and get it in place, as well as get it taken down and moved to the next dormer. Thinking it would need to be assembled from the dormer window (maybe using ropes over the top).

But the ropes and sling or harness would be a good safety plan. Recover from the impact with the ground would delay some of the house build. ;)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on July 31, 2011, 08:43:02 PM
Impact with the ground or any solid object is to be avoided at all costs- I don't heal like I used to, and bones?  Not so much at all...

Here's a general question I hope someone can answer: what's the best brand of wood burning stove?  I need to go ahead and install chimney through the roof now rather than later so I need to know what stove will be there when we get to that point.  I think all stoves are standard size flue openings, no?  And to clarify, I'm looking for the Consumer Report "best buy" stove- best value, actually: value = performance/cost, and that means performance for many, many years.  This will hopefully be the primary heat for the house in winter time; in the summer, of course, they can just open the windows if they want heat.   :D

There's one at Lowe's that looks alright but no customer ratings on it.  Cost is reasonable at around $1200 for the stove and blower, capable (it says) of putting out 112,000 BTU's and heating up to 2400 sq ft, quite a bit more than needed but it's easy to damp it down than try to over-fill to get more heat, no?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated- thanks all.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: pineywoods on July 31, 2011, 11:10:45 PM
LJ, I heat my 2400 sq ft house with a wood burning stove I bought from Lowes. IT's a gasifier (real effecient) made by a canadian company. rated at 40,000 btu. Paid $450 several years ago. they had a larger one for more money, should have sprung for that. I'm off on an RV trip at the moment, will be back home in about a week, I'll read off the data plate and ship it to you. The only thing I don't like is the firebox is too small. A full load of wood only lasts about 6 hours. Gasifier types require the wood to be dry dry...
Oh and the flue is standard 6 inch stove pipe...needs to be double or tripple wall where it goes through the ceiling and roof. Lowes has that stuff..
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on August 01, 2011, 07:52:40 AM
We looked for quite a while at stoves.  Our requirements were a top loader with a removable ash pan.  The top three were the Vermont Castings Encore, Harmon Oakwood, and Lopi.  The Vermont Castings Encore was eliminated because it uses a 8" flue and has a catalytic converter (we bought one 20 years ago...a great stove and still used in the shop).  We were leaning to the Lopi until we found out it was made in China.  Winner was the Harmon Oakwood.

Drew a picture on the floor of where it was to sit and dropped a plumb bob from the roof to the flue.  Double checked the clearances and had to figure in a heat shield and double wall pipe to get it closer to the wall.  Clearance rules on stoves seem over confusing.  Bought the 6" SS pipe at the stove store and put it through the ceiling and roof.  Choices on that pipe also.  Some is galvanized outer with SS inside...other pipe is SS in and out.  Did that early this spring and figured to buy the stove this fall.  A month later the exact stove pops up on craigslist for $700...new there well over $2,000. 8) 8) Came out of a house involved in a divorce settlement and was only used one season.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 01, 2011, 02:12:57 PM
Thanks Piney, Larry- seems to be lots of options out there, both in performance and cost.  Wish our craigslist actually had something worth buying but mostly it lists just junk that other people are hoping someone will take off their hands.   :D

Lowes has a pretty good model that's in the running and I'm about to go check out the fireplace store here- limited showroom but maybe they can order something.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on August 01, 2011, 06:37:03 PM
We tried a wood burning fireplace for a while, but we quickly tired of smoke blowing back into the house in really heavy winds,  the dirt and bugs that got carried in with the wood and feeding the fire every few hours.

We changed to a pellet stove and are really happy that we did.  I carry a FEL load of pellets up from the shed about every 10 days.  We average about a bag a day.  We pay $199 +$6 tax per 50 bag pallet and they store neatly in one corner of a shed.  We clean the stove once a week.  So it's $410 + electric to run the stove to heat the house for the winter.  We do run the GeoThermal now and then but not much.  We should run it more because it is cheaper than the stove but we just like the heat from the stove.  I have plenty of hardwood to burn but we just found it to be too much trouble.  I make one trip each summer to buy pellets...use the FEL forks to move the pellets into the shed and I'm done.  We have a whole house generator so we still have heat when the power goes off.
I'd never go back to wood heat.
Quinton
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 01, 2011, 07:57:16 PM
Funny you should bring up pellet stoves, Quinton- just got back from our one and only fireplace/wood burning stove store and they had one on display.  We do have a local supplier, about 50 miles away, which isn't too bad.  Didn't get a price on pellets yet, and probably won't go that route anyway.  I do agree there are the messy aspects of heating with hard wood, but the fun more than offsets those, in my opinions.  We have a fireplace insert with blower that basically heats our whole house in the winter, and it's fun to have a fire in to look at as well: doors open and it's just as (in)efficient as a regular fireplace- negative heat, but close the doors and adjust the air flow and it heats well without having to restock but every 6 hours or so, good enough for the whole night.  When I get up, there are still plenty of coals to start the next days fire.  Only problem is ash buildup but we usually have a pretty warm day once a week or so, and I just let the fire die out and then clean out the insert.

Oh, and there's the "a wood burning stove heats twice- once when you chop the wood, once when you burn it."  Of course, a chain saw isn't really chopping but I do split the bigger chunks by hand- don't have one of those expensive splitters talked about here on the forum.  There's something very satisfying about the "chunk" of a good ax into a piece of oak, followed by the pieces flying apart with gusto that makes even such hard work fun.

Anyway, thanks for the input- good to know there are excellent alternatives out there.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on August 01, 2011, 08:03:59 PM
Larry,

Why did you want a top loader?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on August 01, 2011, 08:16:51 PM
Open door and drop in a stick or two.  The front loaders I was always raking around coals or pushing around another stick of wood.  The down side is the top loaders may not take as big of stick as the front loaders. 

The ash pan makes clean out easy also.  Rake around the coals a bit and they fall through the bottom grate into a pan.  Pull pan out of stove and carry outside.

Quinton is right about the mess and dirt of a woodburner...just I like the fun. :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 05, 2011, 11:13:19 AM
Quick update, middle of the work day...  Been doing lots of detail stuff, those little things that have to get done so you can move on to the big stuff again.  Anyway, roofing has been priority for last week or two but to finish that, I have to finish all the work on the dormers that I can- really don't want to be crawling around out there on metal.  Which brings me to an interesting point, maybe more of a philosophical justification for doing as much as I can myself.  As I work on the components of the roof and dormers, I do them in sequence that works best for me, not that of subcontractors.  In this case, got the dormers all done except for last coat of finish on the board-and-batten siding, which is on the list next. First picture below shows the east dormer done except for installing the window and finishing siding around it- that will be the last thing I do on the roof except for vents and chimney.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/east_dormer_finished.jpg)

West dormer is done also, although on looking at it from the ground, I don't like the corners so much so I may add a piece of batten on each side near the windows.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/west_dormer_done.jpg)

Managed to get two helpers on Wednesday (halleluja!) so we put up soffit here and there.  I'm using hardiboard soffit, precut to 16" and primed, so all we have to do is paint and screw up into place.  "Screw up" are the operative words working with this stuff- it's 12' long which is 4' too long for easy handling.  It's heavy and floppy as all get out, and that leads to breakage if you're not careful.  Worse, it makes it almost impossible to hold up and screw into place working alone.  I did fab up a couple of "holders" that I screw to the trusses inside- these help some but it's still impossible to do alone from a ladder.  Help is supposed to come back this afternoon so hopefully we can finish up soffit install, then I just need to trim and re-paint to finalize that part of the process.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/soffit.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/soffit_2.jpg)

Also started finishing up sheathing (started finishing?) on the gable ends- been waiting to get the soffit up first so I can butt the sheathing up to it, but ran out of patience so I'm leaving a gap a little wider than the hardiboard and will put up trim to cover the gap... Picture below is of progress on east side; will try to do west side and put up some more siding there- oh, yeah, forgot to mention I prepped the lower half for siding which involves (the way I do it) laying out vertical lines on the wall studs for screwing into, putting up strips of 30 lb felt to allow a little air flow and water drainage (if there ever is a leak) plus a bottom 1X2 coated and sealed to give the right angle for the first course: second picture...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/east_wall_sheathing_top.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/west_wall_prep.jpg)

Got started early today and for a change, got to cut wood and make trim!  Great fun- pulled cants out of a stack that had been sitting a while, very dry and easy to cut but some degrade, and some of that pretty bad.  Long story short, made a bunch of 3X3's for use on corners and around windows and doors- siding butts up against this to protect and hide the ends of the live-edge siding boards.  I stain these dark walnut for contrast and they (like the siding) get a final coat of acrylic finish to protect against weather and discoloration plus keep the carpenter bees from making perfect little holes in them that lead into many-feet long tunnels full of eggs for next year's crop of truly invasive insects.  Hate them buggers!  Forgot to mention, I cut a roll of felt on the chop saw into 2" wide rolls (MOL) that I then unroll, cut to length and nail up with the coil roofing gun.  Chop saw gets lots of tar scraps but easy enough to clean up and this method is fast and easy... those are the things I like most, just after "done carefully and correctly," although the two sets of ideals usually conflict.   ;)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Holmes on August 05, 2011, 03:55:33 PM
  With wood burning stoves I have found that lesser expensive steel stoves can be very creaky, lots of expansion and contraction noises. I have a Woodstock soapstone stove with catalytic com buster.  I am very happy with it , they are  expensive but I do not plan on buying another stove. It can put out up to 45,000 btu's per hour and I find no problems with getting an 8 hour burn from it.
   I think you have done a great  job with this house project and you have done a lot of work in a few months . Nicely done. Holmes
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 06, 2011, 09:05:50 PM
Thanks, Holmes, I appreciate the comments.  Turns out I went ahead and ordered a stove from Lowes- over 100,000 BTU's and rated to heat 2400 sq ft.  This house is not that big but from own experience, it's a lot easier to damp a fire some than to burn it past the stove's capacity.  Also bought the chimney for above the roof (stainless) and the through-the-roof box so when I put down the first piece of metal on that side of the roof (I'm starting from the west on the south roof) I can cut the hole and install the box while having lathing to walk on.  Can't seem to find the fall arrest kit I bought a while back- came in a 5 gal bucket and I'm afraid the wife might have "relocated" it during one of her cleaning frenzies, which we're going through right now (she made the house much cleaner and neater but piled all my plans and documents in one pile that I have to sort through to find anything...  :D  My own fault, should have been neater my self).

Also, on Friday morning, the delivery truck rolled in with all the windows and the two exterior doors (first pictures below).  I'd decided to do some siding while waiting for help on the roofing and soffits (help did NOT show up on Friday so I needed something to do   ;)  ) and needed the windows installed so I could put the 3X3 trim around them to allow the siding to butt up.  


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3617/exterior_doors_delivered.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3617/small_windows.jpg)

Last two pictures show two of the windows installed on the west gable.  Also put in the window in the mud room and the one in the master bedroom plus two of the three small ones on the north side under the porch overhang.  The plans really screwed me up as I went by the "rough opening" dimensions for the first few windows.  These call for a full two inches wider and taller than the actual window, which means I had to fir in with 2X6's plus a strip of 1X on the outside to face it out.  Added a whole lot of work that was unnecessary.  After the first 5 or 6 framed openings, I called my supplier to get confirmation on size for the two kitchen casement windows (one shown in the picture below) and was informed that an inch to a half-inch extra was fine.  Ended up firring in more then half the windows I got in today and the rest went in just right.  Of course, if you go with the smaller rough opening, you better be sure your frame is plumb and straight- got caught a little on one opening with it being out of perpendicular a little bit- must have been "one of those days..."

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3617/window_casement_window_in.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3617/kitchen_and_den_windows.jpg)

The trim has been stained and sealed (some) with miniwax dark walnut to contrast with the siding (you can see the first couple rows at the bottom of the picture).  I also put a strip of felt on top and overlapping the top of the window frame- learned this from a professional carpenter but not sure it's really necessary.  It's a whole lot easier to put it in before the siding is up than after  :D  and it's good insurance, so why not?  You also may notice that not all the trim is uniform, and in fact, the top piece in the front view of the kitchen window slopes down.  This was part of the live edge for that particular board so I used it as is, and besides, it should help shed water some.  Couldn't do the same for the bottom as this would have left a gap between the trim and the window, at least with the boards I had on hand.  Did manage to cut enough for the rest of the trim yesterday on the sawmill, so now I have stain it, cut it and put it up.  Also, I can't use regular 3" screws as my trim is 3" wide and thick... and luckily I'd ordered some 5" log screws "just in case."  Sometimes I surprise myself when I order things I don't have an immediate use for (oh, not surprised that I order them, to my wife's dismay) in that lo and behold! all of sudden I do have a use for it and would have had to wait a week to get it delivered if I hadn't had the foresight (really?) to buy it early.  More surprising was the fact that I actually remembered I had them, although you shouldn't be too surprised- the plastic crate was sitting on the back porch so I almost tripped over every time I went in or out.   :D

Speaking of the sawmill: let me emphasize again how valuable it is when building.  When I need a piece of wood, especially one not sold by the big box stores, I pull a cant or a log and slice it out.  Of course, there's always the time-money trade off: do I spend two days cutting 2X6s or just buy enough to finish up?  All depends on what stage I'm at and my attitude on any given day.  Some days I need a sawdust fix, so there's no question about which to chose; some days the daughter is getting anxious and I feel more anxiously motivated, so time is the controlling factor.  Life is fun, isn't it? :)

Putting up the trim is where the impact driver really shines: with a regular cordless drill, I would never have been able to bear down hard enough at the various angles (some leaning over from near the top of a step ladder)  to drive the 5" screws home.  The impact driver with the star bit: no problem!  And didn't even have to pre-drill for a mere 5" as I do on 8" or 12" screws.  The impact driver also really tightens the screws down, pulling the trim in tight and firm- I love my driver and can't figure out how I got along without it.  As a side note: I had some short screws I was going to use to secure the windows- PVC and fairly soft.  These are regular phillips head so I put a bit in the impact driver and after two screws, threw the rest away- even the impact driver couldn't get them tight enough to start the actual impact process to send them in tight; the heads stripped first.  Not so with the torq drive screws I was using to put up the siding.  Sure, they're 3" long but they go right in, no fuss and no frustration, so I overkilled on the windows and used them.

Tomorrow I fab up a metal roof stop that will run 8-12' along the bottom edge of the south roof.  That side is 12' to the ground and too hard to get to and lift panels up into the air and onto the edge of the roof.  That means I'll bring them on the north side, on the non-roofed part I deliberately left with just lathing for now, tilt them over the top and slide them carefully down against the stop.  If all goes as planned (yeah, right), I should be able to get quite a bit of roofing laid in the next couple of days.  Wish me luck!   8)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on August 06, 2011, 11:07:31 PM
A really great thread, LJ! I read it all today, most of it while at work. I look forward to more great reading during the coming weeks. Completion date goal?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 08, 2011, 06:51:46 AM
Thanks, clww, appreciate the comments.  Completion date?  Ask my daughter and grandson, and it was last week.  Place is coming together fast now, but not as fast as they'd like.  It's going to be a great place to live, with the layout, the woodburning stove and the porches front and back plus the view, and they're understandably anxious to get moved in.  Still, it's better to get everything finished before they do- hard to work around furniture and people in the way... :D  Big hold up is going to be the wood flooring.  I think I have enough cut and air drying- mixed bag of red and white oak, pecan, hickory and of course, pine.  Problem will be molding it and how to lay it- need to get a Woodmaster with the three-sided molding option but the price- ouch!  On the other hand, it will be useful tool for future work, here and for income, I hope.  As to laying the floor- still mixed feelings on that, with some saying food glued down works fine, others not so much.  Slab stays reasonable dry, with plastic underneath, although now I regret not putting insulation under also- guess I'll retro-fit that some day real soon.  ;)

Off to work to stain and seal 3X3 trim for the rest of the doors and windows, and put finish coat on dormer siding.  Supposed to be 95 today and 40% chance of rain- finally figured out the weather man means that it will rain 40% of the time...  :(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on August 08, 2011, 10:00:36 AM
loving that siding lj 8)
are you using deck screws to secure the boards? I'm almost ready to install siding and want to use screws vs nails, but can't find siding screws...lots'a siding nails, but when I ask for screws I get the "deer in the headlights stare" ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 08, 2011, 08:38:10 PM
Frwinks: I just bought brown colored deck screws from Lowes- they sell them in big buckets that go a long way, about $80 each but that's like 500 screws or more??  Anyway, only get the torq drive- so easy to screw in with no slippage or stripped heads.  Usually a small driver comes included but I always buy a three pack to fit my impact driver since I always seem to misplace when switching between drivers for different screws (I use a much bigger torq driver for the 5" log screws that hold the window and door trim plus a nut driver for the metal roofing screws- I have three of each of those also, somewhere...  :D ).

Early morning was so nice, I spent it staining trim and trimming windows.  Was part way through, went inside to check something and opened the window to let the breeze blow through- no screen.  What?  They always come with screens, right?  Checked all the others- half had screens, half didn't, so called the supplier, and he was pretty surprised, but checked the measurements against the list and said he'd make it right.  Course it's no big deal- we have so few bugs here in the Deep South that even without screens, we'd be fine... right!

So today must have been the first day of fall: temperature only got up to 90! and on top of that, we had a breeze for part of the day!  Was so pleasant I was actually able to work in the early afternoon, split between bush hogging the "back 40 which is really only 5" and getting set up for the south side roofing.  Put up two-high scaffolding on the west end of the south side, finished up the fascia and trim for the soffit but still waiting for enough "hands" to show up so we can put up more soffit without breaking the hardiboard in two.  Then I fabbed up a couple of braces for the stop that will help hold the metal sheets in the right location on the roof, plus keep them from sliding off: 26' of 26 gauge metal is darn heavy.   :o  I'll get pictures of these tomorrow- they actually turned out pretty nice.  Positioned 6 sheets of metal to predrill the holes in, then did what I should always do but seldom remember to: thought through the entire process of putting the metal up aligned the right way so that I'd drill the holes in the right locations.  Good thing I did, since I had the sheets laid backward.  They came off the trailer lined up for the north side with the extra flat edge (goes under the overlapping ridge of the next sheet down) on the right side looking from the north end of the house.  Since I'm doing the south end and starting on the opposite side (west versus east for the north side), the sheets have to go up turned 180 degrees.  Had I drilled all six oriented wrong (in my head) there'd have been trouble again at the new house, and I've sworn off swearing (tough habit to break) so that wouldn't have been an option.  Now I've got it right in my head: drill correctly, then turn the stack around so they go up the north side, over the top and into place lined up correctly.  That clear?   :D

First thing in the morning, I'd re-check my orientation and measurements, then drill the holes and try to get at least one sheet up before I have to leave on business- be gone till Friday night so I won't get the roof on this week after all.  Just hope it doesn't rain much till next week.  Planning on getting as much metal up on Sat and Sun as I can, hopefully most of it, and I may coerce help from the various offspring on the weekend.  The daughter is off to Scotland to participate in the Worlds- the annual piping competition that brings pipers from... you guessed it: all over the world!  So that means she's not available for two weeks to help, and I really need adult assistants on this stuff- piece of metal sheeting flying off the roof can be pretty dangerous, as in loss of limb or head- ouch!

Reading the chimney instructions tonight- pretty straightforward, just have to install the roof support box, trim to fit the slope, then lay the metal roofing over top and cut a circle in it to fit around the actual chimney.  Came with flexible flashing to fit around the chimney to make it water tight; of course, you also use lots of silicone caulk.



Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on August 08, 2011, 10:18:14 PM
Lj, it was only 90° there today because I sent some of this 60° weather down that way.  I'll need it when I get back next week.  Supposed to be down into the low 50's a few nights this week.   ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 09, 2011, 07:22:34 AM
Thanks, Magic, but your "magic" didn't last very long- supposed to be back up in the mid-90's again today... Have fun on your trip, don't hurry back- stuff will still be here waiting whenever you get back.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 09, 2011, 09:30:26 AM
Got pictures of the stop-brackets I made out of a few pieces of scrap 2X6 and 2X4 plus a 10' piece of 1X4.  The braces are screwed into posts which span the south porch at 6' OC, and then into the facia to provide vertical stability against the pressure of the metal pushing down.  Oh, and it just happened to turn out that I'd planned for roughly 3" of overhang but ended up with 2 3/4" on the four sheets I've already laid on the north half.  Well, with 3/4" on the 1X4, a 2X4 laid flat and screwed into the top of the main brace arm makes a perfect spacer.  This also makes installing and moving the braces easy: push in and up till it's solid, and set the screws.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/roofing_brace.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3549/roofing_braces.jpg)

Once I've put up the first 2-3 sheets, I can unscrew the 1X4, unscrew the west-most brace and move it down to the next post.  Three screws out and repositioned and I'm back in business again.  Of course, the hard part will be first lifting the 26' of metal onto the north roof, then pulling it up and over onto the south half... haven't done that little trick yet, so we'll see how well that goes while I try to not bend it in the middle and still keep control of the slide down the other side up against the braces.   :-\  Should be fun!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on August 09, 2011, 10:57:38 AM
One thing I'll tell about chimneys is this-make sure the top of the chimney is a foot higher that the roof peak. If not, from my experiences, you'll get smoke that tends to flow down instead of up=smokey house. One more thing for regular chimneys is have the opening (where the chimney begins above the firebox) smaller and the uppermost opening larger by at least 25% or it won't draft correctly, either.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on August 09, 2011, 12:35:37 PM
Quote from: ljmathias on August 09, 2011, 09:30:26 AM
Of course, the hard part will be first lifting the 26' of metal onto the north roof, then pulling it up and over onto the south half... haven't done that little trick yet, so we'll see how well that goes while I try to not bend it in the middle and still keep control of the slide down the other side up against the braces.   :-\  Should be fun!

On the west side of our house the tin was 26' long and it was 14' from the ground to the roof.  We quickly found it impossible to get the tin on the roof without kinking.  We did try going over the top from the other side and that was also unworkable.

Solution was to bend the tin into a "U" shape and put a tarp strap around each end.  That gave the tin nuff stiffness that made it quite simple.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 10, 2011, 09:14:08 AM
Larry, you mentioned this before and it completely slipped my mind (along with lots of other stuff I don't remember and therefore don't remember ever having known  :D ) but thanks for posting it again.  Exactly what I'll try doing- did you use just one strap or one near each end?  Seems one might allow it to unfold in transit?

Thanks again.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on August 10, 2011, 09:25:45 AM
One near each end.

Good luck.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on August 10, 2011, 11:41:45 AM
thanks for the tip lj. Lowes had the screws and I think the "tan" will blend in nice with the natural stain we're using.
smiley_beertoast
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 21, 2011, 06:04:19 AM
Been a while since my last post, and for good reason- haven't been able to type.  No matter how careful I try to be, I manage to do something really dumb, like not using the safety rope laying in the closet on the ground floor of the new house.  I knew 7/12 roofing was dangerous, but walking on the lathing laid down for screwing the metal roofing into gave me a false sense of safety- it's easy to walk on the lathing and you don't slip.  So here's the story: while putting in a piece of 11' metal under the west dormer, I eased back onto the metal to place screws in the predrilled holes (which worked beautifully, by the way- no need to press down hard and throw your balance off, just set the screw and drive it in).  I was carefully placing my rubber soled tennis over the screw tops and had good traction, or so I thought.  Finished all the screws and was moving east toward the edge and just about to step on the lathing when one of my feet slipped.  Skin and clothes don't hold well on metal, so suddenly there I was, sliding toward the edge of a 12' drop.  With no time to think, my body did what it thought best, grabbed at anything to slow me down.  Good news is that it worked, bad news is, the edge of a piece of metal grabbed onto while moving does bad things to fingers.  Fortunately, I didn't end up 12' down with broken whatever, maybe a busted back or neck, but did slice tendons in my left hand ring finger.  ER doctor had to cut off my wedding band- had only been off twice before for heart and prostate surgery, so told the wife, we're unmarried again so we better work on the renewal.   :D  She didn't laugh, though, just gave me that loving smile she has for dealing with an errant husband with a tendency for self-injury.  Pictures below show finger after hand doctor re-attached tendons (scarey telling your finger to move and nothing happens!).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/Stitches.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/Stitches_2.jpg)

Got off pain meds after a day and a half (hate that stuff) and started the Indiana protocol, which involves flexing and stretching after just two days healing.  Good news is, 4 days after surgery, finger is sore but healing well, and I can bend it enough to type again.  Typing is a major part of my life nowadays so loss of a finger or its ability to bend enough to type would have been bad, real bad.  Lesson from God: Wake up, stupid!  Stop doing things you won't be careful doing! Ok, I'm listening this time- hired a crew to finish the roof, they start Tuesday...

Meanwhile, I had made good progress.  First picture below shows the sheet (2nd in from the west end) that I laid first because I had to cut it to fit under the flashing at the top and under the top of the dormer roof.  Also had to cut a hole in it to fit over the stove pipe (double wall).  Found out the best way to do this is to cut a small hole in the middle, lay the sheet and screw it down, then use a jig saw with a metal cutting blade to expand the hole out to the edge of the hole I'd carefully cut in the decking to just fit the chimney section.  Second picture shows the chimney box that is on the inside, up against the roof and through the ceiling (which isn't there yet).  The stove pipe couples to the bottom, the double walled piping screws into the inside just above the connection to the stovepipe and extends up through the roof proper.  Third shows the chimney base with caulk under the flex ring screwed to the metal to keep water out.  Last is the assembled chimney sticking up a good three feet above the top of the roof, so we should be good on draw.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/west_dormer_metal.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/Chimney_box.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/chimney_base.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/Finished_chimney.jpg)

In this last picture you can see the space on the left for the sheet that goes to the edge of the roof- son helped me lift that up and over into place and I screwed that down walking on the metal, no problem.  Space under the dormer window is where I ran into problems with traction laying two sheets there- first went down fine except for one thing: the braces I'd made to hold metal sheets in place worked fine on the long sheets, wouldn't work on the short ones under the dormer window as I couldn't get the sheet down under the flashing because the stop board was at an angle to the slope of the roof and the bottom of the sheet was sitting on top of it.   Picture below shows detail of west bottom of west dormer- long sheet cut to fit as above slid up under west flashing.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/Perfect_overlap.jpg)

I had to unscrew the stop board and position the sheets by hand.  This wasn't bad with putting down the two sheets but it took away my safety stop, which I didn't think about: if I started to slide, the stop board would catch me above the scaffolding just below.  If it didn't actually stop me (and it was plenty strong at that), it would slow me down enough to land on the scaffolding.  Hadn't re-attached it and didn't have on my safety rope.  Just before my slide, I'd been thinking "Next piece, I need to get that rope in place..."  Ah, well, the good news is that prognosis is good, both on the roof and the finger.  Bad news is I can't lift more than 2 pounds with my left hand for at least six weeks, so we're changing focus on work to sequence in stuff I can do with daughter and grandson's help, like siding.  Crew I've lined up will finish roof, at least, and hopefully stay long enough to finish soffits and fascia plus metal gable rake all the way around, maybe even the sheathing on the two gable ends.  That would get is dried in before the end-of-summer rains hit.

Now for the weird stuff- we've had a few really violent thunderstorms over the last few weeks, lots of wind and lightning.  Two most recent, lightning hit real close to the house- no delay between the flash and the sound.  First picture below shows the pine that stands a few hundred feet from the house- looks like it was hit more than once with bark stripped over in three or four runners down the trunk.  Top has now gone brown and I need to take it down before the bugs get in it but can't use a chainsaw for at least six weeks... bummer.  Second picture is of a white oak I was "saving" for future projects- nice straight trunk but not in a good growing location.  It stands 50' from the pine: so what's up?  These two trees are far from being the tallest in that area, and certainly not the tallest on the land.  Why should lightning strike two, maybe more, times in almost the same place?  Could there be a deposit of silver or gold just below ground there, providing a conductive path to ground?  (Don't I wish...   ;D ).  Or more likely, is the water table closer to the surface at the edge of the slope there?  Whatever, it's clearly not a good place to put any buildings...  as it is, the big barn not 200' away suffered some electrical damage- meter base had to be replaced and two sets of fluorescent lights don't work anymore.  Electric company worker did me a favor while replacing the base and checked the circuit breakers and switch boxes- juice good up to the lights themselves, so the problem is either a bad ground or blown ballast.  Have to put that on my list of stuff to do real soon...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/Lightning_struck_pine.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/Lightning_struck_Oak.jpg)

Great day to be alive (still) and the finger healing is going well- had to take it easy yesterday but today should be able to do some piddling work, cut the grass, haul some stuff, play with the grandkids...  Life is good.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: fishpharmer on August 21, 2011, 07:24:52 AM
lj, glad your on the road to recovery.  As you stated, could have been worse if you fell.  I was begin to wonder if something happened to you.  Its not like you to go without posting so long.  The roof looks good.  Get well soon.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on August 21, 2011, 07:52:01 AM
Sorry to hear of the accident...puts a damper on the building progress.  Glad to hear your on the mend.

You will have a bit of extra time to plan some of the future process's.  I'm doing finish wiring now and found a couple of mistakes that should not have been made if I had planed better.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on August 21, 2011, 05:48:58 PM
I had been checking your thread and wondering where you were.  Your accident sounded/looks bad but thankfully not worse.  I would not want to read about broken stuff.

Who says that we are too old to learn.   ;)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on August 21, 2011, 09:00:41 PM
If I did what you are doing, I would certainly fall off the roof.  So, I hired an experienced crew.  My roof is only 5/12 pitch and it is still scary to walk on it.  Get well soon.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 22, 2011, 07:08:53 AM
Thanks all, wasn't really looking for sympathy since it was my own fault for not following safety procedures.  Key point is to keep pressing on but do it carefully, steadily and with a balance of time urgency and appreciation for each step on the way.  Building a house is the most fun there is in terms of using your skills and knowledge- except maybe building a space launch system to colonize the moon, my next DIY.   ;D

Since I've got a crew coming to finish up the metal roof- should only take them a day, easy- I plan on putting in the last dormer window and finishing trim work around it before the metal gets in place.  Hand is feeling much better and that's the danger- straining the repaired tendons and ripping them free again.  Fortunately, nothing too strenuous in what I need to do this morning before it heats up.  And timing is perfect- should have the house dried in before Irene spreads her water wings over the South.  She's grown up into a full fledged hurricane although it looks like Florida will get first and hardest impact on the mainland- sure hate to be in the way of our first hurricane for the year but there's plenty of time left for us all to get our share.   :(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 23, 2011, 07:55:35 PM
Great news: roofing is on everywhere!  Crew showed up today, a little bit inexperienced with some aspects but comfortable working on the roof, and they moved pretty well.  Had to provide some guidance which worked out right- do the south side first with the trimming needed to fit around the dormers so that metal sheets could be hauled up and over from the north side.  I'd thought that through pretty carefully and it worked like a charm- lots less dangerous that way.  So they finished the south side, moved to the north and knocked that out before 2, then finished up with the ridge cap and water seals under- polymer mesh that allows air through (hot kind in the summer) but keeps rain from blowing up under.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/north_roof.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/south_roof_finished.jpg)

Couldn't help myself and had to help with moving some of the metal and pre-drilling screw holes.  Went to the doctor to have the finger looked at, and he very firmly informed me of the error of my ways: stop using it or we do the operation over again!  Ouch, guess I'll be good.  Pictures below show the exercise brace that I use to stretch the fingers and tendons without snapping any of them...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/hand_exercise.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/hand_exercise_3.jpg)

Lesson here is simple: does as I say, not as I do.  Now why did that never work with my kids?

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on August 23, 2011, 08:18:58 PM
Glad it wasn't worse and that you are healing up, LJ. That roofing job looks great! When I first saw the photos, I did a double-take, and made sure it wasn't a Magic Man thread! :D :D He's had a few injury photos on here.
Something you may notice on your finger after it has healed completely is nerve damage. I stuck a tree gaff into my right leg three years ago (tree fork slabbed with me attached), and I smashed off my right pinky finger tip two years ago (between 2 logs while splitting). Once they each healed up, both areas feel like they're asleep. I can feel pressure when I touch them, but that's all. Just something you may notice.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on August 23, 2011, 10:31:59 PM
Hi everybody!

Ljmathias, and the others doing roofing with steel. I live in the French alps around 4500', and I do a lot of steel, we call it bac over here. Looks pretty much like your red stuff.  Perfect for getting the snow off.

In the past I've had a few pairs of trainers, which were ok, last pair of safety trainers from a Portuguese manufacturer was crap at holding on steel.  So I went back to normal ones. What a discovery, I've had vibram soles in the past, pure rubber, PVA etc! Vibram was usually the most consistent in holding. And then in the sports shop I bumped onto those vibram soled Merrell, a pair of on sale of quartz stone female shoes. Cheap enough to try. The sole on those is just plain amazing when worn out a smidge, lets say two weeks of work-site. I feel like spiderman. Just to explain, I was on some polythene tarp, on a 30° roof in the pissing rain at bout 6600', 35F°, just before it started snowing during a bad episode in July. I had my harness on. I was expecting to fall stumble and crawl onto that polythene, to put a tarp over the wood which needed to be protected. Not a single time! So if you do roofing with steel, get a pair of those! I was running on a steel roof the other day, with no sign of slippage at all. And if you have friends, spread the word.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 24, 2011, 05:10:28 AM
Now those are what I needed!  Looked up vibram, found stuff on the inventor who came up with the soles for climbing mountains safely (or more safely- let's see, climb on my roof vs climb a mountain.... um).

"Today, Vibram soles are manufactured in Brazil, China, Italy and the United States, and are used by more than 1,000 footwear manufacturers in their footwear products.

Vibram is well known for pioneering the barefoot running movement with the FiveFingers line of shoes that mimic the look and mechanics of being barefoot.

In the United States, Vibram soling products are manufactured under exclusive license by Quabaug Corporation.

Although the brand is best known among the outdoor and mountaineering community, Vibram produces numerous models of soles specifically designed for fashion, military, rescue, law enforcement or industrial use. Vibram also produces soles for the sole purpose of footwear resoling."

Searched for a place to buy some- turns out they make hiking boots, "barefoot" running shoes and water shoes for use on slippery rocks and stuff in the water.  Prices run $70 (on sale) to averages in the $100-130 range.  Seem expensive but would be worth it for metal roofers, roofers in general and anyone living in the UK or the US northwest where it rains all the time.   :D  Seems Cabelas carries them, maybe- online price is discounted so maybe they're discontinuing them, who knows.  I'll hit the local store this afternoon and see.

Thanks for the comment, Satamax- this could prove to be very valuable and useful, contributing to the safety of anyone working on slopes or slippery surfaces.  This is why the forum is so useful- just wish I'd known about these two weeks ago...  :(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: submarinesailor on August 24, 2011, 06:43:45 AM
Lj,

Do you have a picture or a link to the "polymer mesh that allows air through (hot kind in the summer) but keeps rain from blowing up under."  you used on this roof.  I'm just a bit curious about it.

Bruce

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on August 24, 2011, 08:48:44 AM
LJ, please don't buy "any" vibram. Even in merrell range the soles are  not all equivalent. Avoid hard hiking boots compound, too hard.  I've "tried" mine on the  base of the shoes display.  It was a piece of painted metal. Pushed myself onto the wall and could hold on it at an angle of less than 45° May be a metalic bin, aluminum door, anti fire door side of your van could help you determine the good ones.

I noticed this brand of Canadian safety shoes had one pair with vibram soles.

http://www.terrafootwear.com/detail.php?id=551&cat=138&type=men

Might be worth looking at, if you can find any in your neck of the woods. I can't they don't seem to arrive in France  ::)

Actually, the vibram used on my merrell is "Vibram® Pelorus Pelorus/TC5+ rubber" I bet some other brands have the same.


Vibram multi sports plus soles are also TC5+


Another thing careful with anything not black, some EVA rubbers kill the grip.

And last but not least, remember that nothing beats a harness and a rope.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on August 24, 2011, 10:20:11 AM
the roof looks great, love the color :) glad to hear the hand is healing up too.
Another option for great shoes for metal are MTB shoes with "sticky rubber"  http://www.vitalmtb.com/product/feature/A-Sticky-Rubber-History,33

I helped our crew of Amish with the roof install on the house... some things just can't be done solo or even with another pair of hands.  10/12 pitch and 18' steel panels were way out of my comfort zone :D 
One day I grabbed a pair of my mtb shoes, as they literally make the bike stick to the feet and was able to actually walk and screw the panels down.  Still harnessed up, but so much more confident than before.   
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 24, 2011, 08:33:24 PM
frwinks: you actually walked on a 10/12 on metal?  Wow, guess I really do need some new shoes- Spiderman, look out, here we come!

Today was a fantastic day for several reasons.  The crew finished the roof on Tuesday and I just pulled over to the new house with a load of ply for ceilings under the porches, when it opened up and poured.  Lots of lightning and thunder and the rain came in sheets.  There is something calming and reassuring about sitting on the back porch slab, watching the rain come off the roof and knowing the house is water tight now.  During the storm, I did several walk throughs looking for drops- not a one.  The sound of the rain on the metal was just right- the OSB is a pretty good insulator and the 3/4" air gap between the metal the felt must also help- nice and quiet inside the house.

The crew put up scaffolding on the south side and then the vented soffit there plus trim to finish it off.  Moved scaffolding to the east gable wall and got the soffit up, the facia on, the rest of the OSB plus house wrap, and the two windows on that side.  Started to move scaffolding to the west wall but it got too close to quitting time, so they'll finish that in the morning, and hopefully the west gable to the roof.  I'm going to try screwing in four fan boxes in the porch rafters so we can paint and put up 19/32 CDX there.  I couldn't do it by myself even with two good hands, but with a crew of three plus me supervising (  :o ) we should knock that out either in the afternoon or Friday morning.  Things are going so well, I may see if they can stay on another week and help with insulation, porch on the front (south) side and the rest of the exterior trim.  Shoot, we may even get ambitious and try to go all the siding as well.  Better to have too many goals, than not enough!   :D

It's just fantastic to see such progress.  Of course, everyday they're on the job means some piece of the house down the road farther gets push back- money only goes so far, and every dollar I've ever tried to stretch tears in two, dang it!

I'll get pictures tomorrow of progress and the one piece of metal air flow seal that was left over.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on August 25, 2011, 10:19:57 AM
As long as you're on a leash :D and stay as close to 90deg to the roof with your feet it's easy peasy...hey even spiderman needed his web to pull off the wall walks....
Here's a shot of us doing the two rows of 2x4 strapping on top of 8" of rigid foam, that stuff is just as dangerous first thing in the morning.. :o  don't ask me how I know :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18964/2283/171.jpg)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on August 25, 2011, 01:38:37 PM
The roof looks good Lj.  The finger, well just take care of it and follow the Dr.'s orders.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 25, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
Now I see how you walk on a roof that steep- should have done it that way myself.

So it's Dr. Magicman now, is it?  And well said, in fact.  When to the physical therapist today and she about had a fit when she found out I'd been working- guess the blobs of white paint on my brace gave me away, dang it!  So I'm officially not allowed to do anything with my left hand now, even straightening my fingers or moving them around too much is verbodten.

Good news is the crew finished up everything on the west gable except siding, which we'll start in the morning along with the porch ceilings as soon as I finish painting the ply for that.  It's soooooo much easier to do it right side up than to have it above you, paint dripping in your eyes and all over your clothes, trying to get into corners where a paint roller don't fit- it's not that I hate painting, which I actually enjoy, it's just the pace- slow and careful, not my style.  Now I do have a sprayer that works great but it takes two hands to do anything with it so that will have to wait till October when I (hopefully) come off the injured list.

Got pictures and left the camera over at the house- I'll post tomorrow.  :)

Not to change the subject (which is what you say when you're about to actually change the subject) but Irene is now aimed directly at my son and his family on the Eastern shore of Maryland.  His boat is his pride and joy, and his source of income, so he just bought another storm anchor and plans to leave her in the water.  I'm praying for a quick change of direction for Irene- she's female, she can change her mind at the drop of a hat for no particular reason, so why not?   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: submarinesailor on August 25, 2011, 09:36:45 PM
Lj,

The last 2 females that came thru here, Fran( 1997) and Isabella (2003) did a lot of damage.  Isabella came right up the Chesapeake Bay and had such a storm surge that the US Naval Academy was under 12 feet of water.  Yes, I too am hoping for a change in direction. ::) ::) ::) But if this female is the same as the last 2, we are in for a bumpy ride for the next couple of weeks. :o  Wonder if I'm going to work on Monday or not. ??? ???

Bruce
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 26, 2011, 07:23:08 PM
clww: thanks for the heads-up on nerve damage- I can tell already that's going to be the case, some tingling some dead areas but at least the finger mostly works.

submarinesailor: here's the picture you wanted- whole strip and close-up.  Basically a form fitting seal with regions of spun webbing to allow plenty of air flow but no driven or splashed rain penetration.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/vent_roof_seal.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/vent_roof_water_seal.jpg)

Last two days have been very productive- for the crew if not for me.  I got in trouble with the therapist, the crew didn't get in trouble at all...  :)  Yesterday and the day before they did the gable ends, first on the east side of the house, then the west.  This involved moving and building up a pyramid of scaffolding topping out at three up- high but a whole lot safer than ladders.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/east_gable_sheathed.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/west_wall_sheathed.jpg)

I tried to get a jump on things by priming and painting the plywood for the porch ceilings, which is what I was definitely not supposed to be doing, according to the PT.  Oh, well, live and learn and the tendon didn't pop, so that's good.  Managed to prime enough for one porch but since I couldn't do that anymore, the rest went up as-is.  

Interesting how memory goes: I'd told the crew chief we wanted the fan boxes and brackets set at 8' from each end, both porches.  So I get there a little after 6 this morning, and find them hard at work with lights they'd brought along, boxes set at 12'.  Chief had misremembered the locations for the fans- he thought 12' so here's what we did: set boxes at both 8 and 12' from each end, the ones at 8' for the fans and the other two for lights that will keep the bugs away from the door.  The porch light on my house is right above the door, at just the right location to draw in all those light-seeking insects that buzz and swope as you go in or out after dark.  So, some good came out of his faulty memory after all.  First picture is pre-primed plywood, second of south porch, last of north porch.  Oh, and the soffit and fascia trim came out pretty good, very last picture.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/painted_porch_ceiling.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/south_porch_ceiling.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/north_porch_ceiling.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3654/soffits_and_trim.jpg)

If I'd had my druthers, putting up 4X8 sheets of ply would not be my first choice for porch ceilings, but I needed to use the crew and dwindling resources (time and money) the best way possible.  I'm thinking of trimming the ceilings with either 1X4 or 1X3 dark stained lathing to cover the joints and give the ceiling some character.  We'll see... :)

So, this crew worked so well and got me so caught up on what needed to get done fast, that I am trying to get some of them back for another week to help with siding.  The pieces are mostly pretty long- 12 to 20'- and they air-dried great over the last few months.  Some edge stain from weather even though I had the pile covered with tin, but we'll choose and fit depending on location.  If it's around the doors and on the porches, we'll use good stuff, or at least stuff that looks good.  No weather under the porches with an 8' overhang so even boards that have too much "character" such as pine beetle tracks would work alright and look fine.  On the gable ends with only 16" of overhang, we'll definitely use the most solid boards in the lot.  Daughter has been working last two days staining and sticker-stacking the boards, grandson pulling boards and placing them on the sawhorses for her.  This weekend we hit that hard- don't think I have enough cut and dried for the whole house, but we can get maybe 70% done with what I have.  I'll be helping with the staining so we have a good stash when the guys show up on Monday, if I can get them.  If not, well, we'll be ready for when we can do it.  Key is there's no urgent rush to get the siding up, and I have plenty to do inside, some of which I can actually do if I'm careful.   ;D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on August 26, 2011, 08:48:37 PM
Lj,

You are a challenging patient  :).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on August 28, 2011, 08:16:08 AM
patient patience   ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 28, 2011, 08:38:52 PM
Patience may be a virtue, and I guess that makes me pretty darn un-virtuous most of the time   :)  It's just that there's so much to get done...

Well, good news, some of the crew is coming back to hang siding.  Daughter and I have been staining and sealing, got a bunch of boards ready for them to start.  If it's only two guys, we should be able to keep up, staining more as they hang it.  If it's three, I don't think we can keep up, but I have a few odds and ends they can work on that are easy.  Biggest problem has been the heat- 97 and above last couple of days, predicted to be that through Wednesday.  I just can't get motivated once it gets to that temperature, which means with our humidity a heat index of 105-110.

Another major problem is that I don't have all the siding cut.  We've gone back and forth: all lap siding up to the peak on the gable ends or lap below and board on batten above.  Finally decided on the latter, but I haven't cut any boards or battens, everything is live edge which won't work well for that.  I guess the best I can do with limited use of the left hand is to keep the feed with lap siding boards, get that done all the way around, and maybe I can work up to sawing out some boards.  Gonna be a long, busy week... stitches out Tues morning!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on August 28, 2011, 10:04:56 PM
Doctors orders, doctors orders, doctors orders........ :).  That house is not going anywhere, it will be there when you finger is up to the task, so don't overdo it my friend....
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 31, 2011, 04:37:39 AM
WDH: you sound like my dad or my wife, can't decide which.   :D  You're right, of course, but that doesn't make it any easier just watching other people do what you can do, sometimes better (but not always).  Anyway, got the stitches out and doc said everything is looking good, just be very, very careful for the next four weeks (four weeks!).  Finger feels SO much better now, danger is not being careful, but I'll try, really.

It's amazing what a crew can do, and even two or three people working well together.  This week we're down to just two on the hired crew- partly to save money and partly because that's all I could get right now, the rest working on other commitments.  So the "crew" is an experienced carpenter and his son, plus me (oops, didn't mean to say that, WDH).  Daughter has been busy staining boards that I'd cut a while back- turned out great!  The crew put up the lap siding on the bottom of the west end of the house- two pictures below.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/west_end_half_sided.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/west_end_half_done.jpg)

I helped work on the porch (forgot to get picture- later) with one hand mostly.  Found I could hold a screw with my hand in the brace (not easily, but it worked and didn't strain anything) while I started it and set it with impact driver in my right hand.  So the dad was cutting, his son and I putting up boards and got most of the back porch sided.

Now we have a problem: just about run out of air dried pine I'd cut, daughter and grandson going to finish that up this morning but we need twice what we've used so far to finish the lap siding and then the board and batten on the gable ends.  Got the logs, just not the mobility.  Plan is for daughter and I to get a chain saw running and I'll oversee her bucking logs I've got stored in the pole barn.  Not happy about this but she's pretty capable and I can't take a chance with my left hand on a chain saw.   >:(

Once we have them down to manageable lengths, I'll haul them to the sawmill and use the hydraulics to do all the lifting, turning and positioning.  Only problem will be off bearing: guess I'll try making cants and flat sawing all the way down, then moving the whole stack of boards to the edge of the mill with the hydraulics.  If I position the FEL next to the sawmill loading side, I should be able to tilt the stack right on to it with one hand and a 2X4... As they say, though, even the best laid battle plans fall apart on contact with the enemy, not that I consider the logs and boards enemies, of course.   :D  So all I need to do is cut about 1200 bd ft of 4/4 boards in the next two days with one hand, half with live edge, half straight edge for board and batten.  Sounds like fun!

Turns out with only one hand working I can't even join the grandson in a little bit of relaxation during break:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/River_swinging.jpg)

You may notice the small rectangle of dark stained pine in the west end pictures: that's where the meter base will mount with underground electrical coming in.  Rather than put the breaker box just inside (on the wall of the kitchen), I'm running 1 1/2" conduit with 3/0 three strand wire inside over to the pantry where we'll mount it.  Did this on my son's house and it worked out fine- PITA but doable.  Feeding that stiff wire bundle through 90 degree bends is tough with two hands but my son the plumber is going to help, hopefully this evening after he gets off work.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: dukndog on August 31, 2011, 07:06:47 AM
Looks great!! I continue to love reading these posts and follow the progress.
I did the same at my older home with the 3/0 wire...my dad was an electrician/lineman. We used dish soap to "lube" the wire through the conduit at the 90 bends. Worked really well..then we just hosed it off after getting it through there. Just make sure all is dry before setting the meter..sparks!!
and take care of that finger...I'm with your wife and WDH on that one...patience..the turtle will finish the race!!!

DnD
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 31, 2011, 07:26:23 AM
Thanks for the suggestion and the admonition- I agree, I really am trying to guard the finger, don't want to go through the operation and recovery a second time... just real hard to not do anything; in fact, impossible with a work crew showing up in 10 mins...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 31, 2011, 05:59:36 PM
Quick update on siding: the crew was busy today finishing up the north porch and even got around to the east side (first two pictures).  Third picture is longer view of the north side showing contrast between siding and roofing- we think it's beautiful but we're prejudiced in the matter...   8)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/siding_north_wes.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/siding_north_side.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/siding_north_plus_roof.jpg)

Bad news: two boxes I thought had more stain in them were empty.   >:(  Seems my young helper doing the stain earlier had grabbed more without me taking note (or maybe I did and just didn't remember it).  So we're ran out of stain today- ordered more but won't be here till Friday's ups shipment (I'm told- let's hope that's true so we have the weekend to get boards ready for Monday).  Good news: lots of other stuff for the crew to work on.  Tomorrow we start the wooden deck that will be the front porch on the south side of the house.   :)  More good news: electricians are supposed to come scope out the house so they can get started wiring: yeah!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on August 31, 2011, 08:44:07 PM
LJmathias.

What is this big fan in pic two?

Huh, i have one thing to say, house looks good. But that's a messy worksite. Prone to "trigger" accidents. JMHO!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on August 31, 2011, 09:40:54 PM
The big fan helps cool the workers, and since I'm one of them off and on, I can attest to its benefit... it redistributes the hot air so your body thinks its getting cooler even though the sweat doesn't actually evaporate.   ;)

Thanks for the comment on the work site, you're absolutely right. In fact, I'd just talked to the crew chief today about how messy it is- putting one man on clean up in the morning.  Some people don't mind the mess and seem able to work around and through it- I prefer a much cleaner site; example- before the crew showed up yesterday, I moved everything off the porch you see and swept it clean.  I knew they'd be moving back and forth carrying and attaching siding, and if I hate wading through and kneeling in trash, they probably do, too. Most of what you see (but not all) was made in the last two days.

We're shifting focus to the front porch on the other end of the house in the morning so we should be able to clean up a lot.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 01, 2011, 05:16:34 AM
Hi LJmathias.

Well, i should say I'm lucky. When i work as a team, i have my "fetch and carry" who's English, and did British apprenticeship. And this guy is a right nutter about sweeping and tidying. All the wood is in several piles, in the right order. Felt in a corner, steel in another pile etc!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Qweaver on September 01, 2011, 09:22:25 AM
Well Lj, I'm just amazed at the progress that you all have made since the foundation was started in March.  We started our cabin in May of 2006 and are just getting close to done.  Of course we had long periods when we did not work on it but I'll bet we had two solid years of work to get where we are.
You obviously know how to get-er-done.  It's looking great.
Quinton
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on September 01, 2011, 09:12:49 PM
Yes, given your labor resources, you have done an impressive job.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 01, 2011, 09:19:58 PM
Thanks, all, and progress has been amazing last few weeks.  I was thinking today about how many different "hats" I wear everyday or week on this build.  Today started out as general contractor and on-site supervisor: started one lad on site clean up (and it looks a lot better and is certainly safer now) while got three others going on building the porch deck on the south end of the house: got them straight on layout and deck trim plus setting the anchor bolts into hammer drilled holes in the foundation wall, then I moved on to being a sawyer: had to cut a bunch of 3X3's for window and door trim plus transition piece between the lap siding and the board and batten.  Then back to the work site to deliver them to my daughter for staining after directing her to Lowes for our daily "fix" of stuff we forgot to get the day before. Then back to GC mode- decision on purlins between the 2X6 floor joists to stiffen them up and provide support for the decking.  Probably should have gone with 2X8's for stiffness but figured if we glued and screwed down the 1" tongue and groove water resistant decking, it would be stiff enough (turns out it is).  

Talked to daughter about how to trim out the ceilings of the porches since the sheets of ply primed white looked pretty plain.  Discussed covering the seams and screws with 1X4, first thought of staining with the same warm pecan as the siding but then decided to go with the Minwax dark walnut for two reasons- more contrast to set off the whole under-porch area and second because we were out of the siding stain until Friday.  Yesterday was panic day on getting the order in for the stain/seal to finish the exterior, and I continued my "purchasing agent" role today following up with UPS on delivery.  Also put on my "finance and budgeting" hat to update expenses and future costs, then continued in those two roles with daughter and grandson back at Lowes (only the second time today, but three trips yesterday): turns out they're having a holiday appliance sale and we needed a frig, dishwasher and range.  Her ex-husband works there so here's what happened: she picked out good compromises, got the 10 or 15% off for the sale and then his 10% employee discount: two of the three came in at 25% off and actually below their cost (but don't tell them please).  Scheduled delivery for two weeks, optimistically hoping we'll be ready for them then.  

In transit, donned my "health and safety" hat, pulled into Walgreen's after we saw the "flu shots" sign out front, filled out the paper work, payed our fee and now my left arm is sore but good insurance.  Called the wife on the way home to tell her what good kids we'd been, getting our shots and all, and she remembered for me the fact that if I'd just gone to our family practice, I could've got my shot for free as part of our wellness benefits- darn!  $35 shot on my shot (daughter and grandson can't afford insurance yet), or so I thought: before I got home, wife had put on her "I'll take care of this" hat, had called Blue Cross and got permission to get us reimbursed for our shots because the family practice won't get their vaccines till October (she had gone there to one-up me in our life-long game of teat-for-tat and discovered that she had to go back to the same drug store we'd gone to to get her shot- one point for me!)

Back to the work site just in time to see the crew packing up- they normally quit at 2:30 or so in the summer heat , and we discussed tomorrow's jobs (back in GC mode).  Got organized on on putting up the now-stained and dry 3X3 trim plus the half-stained (half were stained not all of them half-stained, hey?   :D  ) ceiling trim for the porches.  Laid out couple of other small tasks to nail down but it doesn't look like siding stain will be in early (UPS says delivery "by end of day" and it's my experience that they almost always just meet their stated goals so us mere mortals don't ever count on early deliveries that they could actually charge more for if we really wanted them then, got that?   ;D  ).  Now it was time for my "painter" hat- broke open the new can of Kilz primer, put on a new roller and primed the back porch we had to get ready because we'd let the crew put up unprimed for something to keep them productive while we wait on the new stain/sealer delivery.  

Much, much easier and cleaner to prime and paint on the ground since the paint actually drips down ONTO the plywood rather than into my eyes and hair and onto the porch floor and some of the beams holding up the ends.  I'm a careful painter when I'm not in urgent mode, but we have to have the ceilings primed and painted for the crew in the morning to put up the trim there...  daughter made it clear she would take over painting from now on (so I won after all, right?).  Was about to clear-coat the ceiling trim when thunder woke me from my zen-like focus on whatever it was I was focused on and sprinkles started falling.  So much for staining and finishing anything; did manage to gather up the boards already stained dark and get them under the porch so they'd be ready in the morning.

So now I've got on my "historian" hat, recording the momentous developments of the day and trying to put everything into perspective.  Oh, and did I mention the fact that our electricians showed up last night to survey the job and make sure supplies would be there next Tuesday when they're ready to work?  Guess who they are: some of our Camp Shelby neighbors who work hard during the day and are pretty bored in the evening away from home and family and living in that "temporary" state of existence where you don't put down roots or develop habits for a place you'll be leaving soon.  These are the guys who wire all the new buildings and structures in the states and overseas where we're fighting right now- interesting stories they have to tell, none of which I'll repeat here (can you say "no wikileaks?").   Anyway, seems they've volunteered to work for free just to have something to do in the evening, which means I'll have to line up lights and another extension cord to bring in more juice for the house- pretty dark inside now that all the walls are covered and siding going up.  The reason we got them involved is a strange one, shows how the world often works: daughter is an accomplished piper and plays for a great many military funerals (sadly) and it just happens that the chief electrician also happens to be the guy who's job it was to arrange such things... so he's known my daughter for a while now, and he found her blog, discovered what we were up to and there you have it.

Enough said- I'll get pictures of the south porch tomorrow and hopefully of all the trim work that we'll get done as well.  Tomorrow I'll also be spending most of the day with my sawyer ear protection on (don't wear a hat when I'm making sawdust).  Got to make a whole bunch of siding so we can get it stained over the weekend (please, please UPS, make the delivery on time   :(  ).

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 02, 2011, 08:49:06 PM
Happy Labor Day! Well, almost, and almost on us in a major tropical storm, Lee, which sprang up out of nowhere and is predicted to dump 8-10" of rain on us in the next two days along with wind 40-60 mph.  There goes all the sawing I'd planned for Saturday...   :(  Well, son the plumber is all set to finish the stack out and since we're now good and dry on the inside, should be able to wrap that up.

Meanwhile, last two days the crew I hired for one week is now ending their second week.  Been so productive, I'm bringing them back for a couple more days after the holiday to finish up siding, assuming I can get enough cut and stained by Tuesday.  So yesterday, major work got done on the front porch (south side).  First picture is of the floor joists all in place with avantech T&G decking about to go down.  Second is with the decking all done yesterday evening- daughter brought out a chair to sit and try out the porch: she liked it!  Then they started on the ceiling treatment today- after I got all the ceilings primed and painted last night.  Next picture shows the crew working on the 1X4 PT trim we'd stained dark walnut and after that, pictures of the finished south porch ceiling and deck- we really like the contrast without it being too busy.  Also, the trim covers up seams and screw heads so the ceiling looks nicely finished with very little hard effort.  I'd thought about 2X8 joists as I mentioned last post but the glued and screwed avantech really stiffened the floor up, even with the wheeled scaffolding and 2-3 grown men moving around and deliberately jumping up and down.  I'm thinking of sealing the avantech with some deck seal for now, and later putting down a real floor, maybe oak if I have any left over from the inside flooring.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/floor_joists_south_porch.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/ready_to_sit_south.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/putting_up_slats_south_porch.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/ceiling_south_porch.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/deck_south_porch.jpg)

North porch got a little more complicated- middle seam was too close to the light and fan boxes to allow for bases so we just left a segment open till after we trim out the electrical, then I'll cut some stained boards to fit right.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/ceiling_north_porch.jpg)

Picture of River and I enjoying the progress, he in his new braces and me with just one brace that still allowed me to help with the work on site and get some logs stacked next to the mill to cut into siding.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/river_and_I_north_porch.jpg)

Forgot to mention the first job of the day, swapping the two exterior doors which were in the opposite frames.  Despite the fact that my daughter claims she told me multiple times which was supposed to go where, my rememory told me the opposite.  Since one is RH and the other LH, we couldn't just swap frames and all, so instead, mounted them wrong, then popped the doors and swapped them.  This required unscrewing and reversing the window and built-in blinds for the now-correct kitchen door, which wasn't hard at all.  I like this built in blind system- works great and can't get dirty and all bent or twisted by teenagers pulling the slats apart to peer out...   ;D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/back_door_switched_out.jpg)

The wife and some of the grandkids had been walking and drifted by the lightning struck pine and oak tree, both deader than the proverbial doorknob.... except now, instead of one dead oak, we have two.  Apparently, the lightning bolt followed the one tree down the trunk, blowing off half of the bark, and into the roots which were tangled up with another white oak not 10' away, killing it as well.  All the leaves are brown on both tress and they look pretty sad, being dead and all.  Found out, if I'm careful, I can start and hold a chainsaw with my one good and one braced hand, so I may take a whack at felling all three... but maybe not, if better sense prevails.   ;)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/dead_oak3.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/two_dead_oaks.jpg)

Still following the very slow progress of tropical storm Lee, and it seems to be aimed directly at us in Southern Mississippi on its way farther north.  Storm warnings are already out and we've got dark skies and that sense of foreboding that seems to precede the really bad storms.  Or it could be my imagination  :)  Either way, we'll get something done tomorrow- logs turned into lumber and stained, or plumbing stacked out and other interior jobs just waiting to get done.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on September 03, 2011, 12:48:02 AM
Leave the chainsaw alone!  Those trees will stand where they are for a while longer since they have been already standing there for 40 or 50 years, so they are used to it  :).

(I am the little guy standing on your shoulder whispering in your ear, "Doctor's orders!")
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 03, 2011, 05:22:05 AM
You made me laugh, WDH: mental picture of you standing on my shoulder as I try to support the extra weight, tipping sideways...   :D

Rain is here so I guess everything will be interior work today.  Hope the storm doesn't damage the coast too much, maybe take out a few casinos is all.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 03, 2011, 09:20:50 PM
Today was a productive day- First thing before the rain hit hard, fixed the leak in the fuel line on the LT40, then finished sawing up a few logs into live edge siding and some battens for the gables.  They got a little wet so I hauled them over to the porch under the overhang- maybe they'll dry enough to stain.  Oh, yeah: the stain made it on Friday!  Bad news, it's been raining so hard and continuously that I haven't even opened the boxes yet.  Hopefully Sunday afternoon (not in the forecast) or Monday (maybe); the crew comes back on Tuesday, maybe, but I do have to have something for them to do.

Later in the morning, my plumber son jumped in on the stack out, got about 2/3's done today and hope to finish tomorrow afternoon.  I worked a little on conduit and 3-strand 3/0 wire to bring juice from the meter base to the breaker box.  Was careful with the hand but at one point, pulled just the wrong way and I could "feel" it not right, so really took it easy after that.  It was so relaxing sitting on the new porch, listening to the patter of rain on the tin and watching it come down- beautiful afternoon.  More good news: Lee has lightened up some and prediction now is 4-6" rain down from 8-10" with wind of 20-30 mph down from 40-60.  As I sit here now, though, gusts are pretty strong and the rain, she just keeps acomin' down.

Also did some more clean up inside the new house, picked up tools and localized them, swept some and gathered up pieces of this or that, put all the discarded nails and screws in a box and off the floor, pulled some nails out of discarded wood, and made the place safer for electricians coming on Tuesday.  Speaking of which: bought the breaker box from Lowes yesterday, pulled it out today and no cover.  Daughter took it back while we were working, got refund and then picked up 3" pipe components the plumber forgot to get, went back to get another box but checked this time to be sure: it was the same one on the shelf she had just returned, with no cover!  Now that's service for you- no rooting around to find a replacement, just buy back the one that you just had!   >:(  Well, she did dig around and got a complete one, so after we finish up the conduit tomorrow, we can mount the box and the meter base (if it's not raining too hard) and be all set for electrons to find us.

Speaking of electrons: son and I and his two boys were coming back to the house to have lunch when he pointed out two trees struck by lightning.  I thought he was pointing at the two oaks that were dead, but he said no, those two pines: neither of which was the pine that was struck multiple times at first.  This makes a total of at least five separate trees directly struck by lightning in the last month or killed by collateral fire, and they're all within about 150' of each other.  Coincidence or something more sinister?  Aliens testing their "lightning guns" on my trees, and getting a pretty close pattern at that?  Buried gold and silver acting as ground for the extra electrons floating around in the sky?  Inquiring minds want to know and I'm fresh out of possibilities here.  Just hope the lightning stays 300' away- too close to the houses as it is.   :(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on September 03, 2011, 10:03:42 PM
 8)
Quote from: ljmathias on September 03, 2011, 09:20:50 PM
I worked a little on conduit and 3-strand 3/0 wire to bring juice from the meter base to the breaker box.  Was careful with the hand but at one point, pulled just the wrong way and I could "feel" it not right, so really took it easy after that.

You may need a fourth wire which would be your ground.  Also with the frequent lightening and metal roof I might consider a ground rod field of three rods in a triangle shape.  If you could tie it to any steel in the footing, even better.

I'm not an electrician nor clear on the rules...my advice is worth what ya paid. 

And take care of the finger.  The house is looking great. 8) 8)

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 06, 2011, 03:59:33 AM
LJ, you're ok? They haven't straped you on an hospital bed to stop you using your hand, Three days without posting, hope nothing bad happened.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 06, 2011, 06:14:45 AM
Sorry, and no, I'm not strapped down.  In fact, been very careful with the hand while I've been working last couple of days doing this and that.  "This" includes helping the plumber son stack out the plumbing- PVC piping cut and glued in plus PEX for hot and cold water.  Worked three days on this- takes time and patience and we had to cut the upstairs tub enclosure to fit the slope of the ceiling.  Got pictures yesterday but left the camera at the house- I'll post later if I have time.

"That" included electrical prep work- got the 1 1/2" grey PVC conduit cut and threaded with the 3 strand bundled 3/0 wire plus ground.  Couldn't finish hooking up the meter base because of the rain and didn't mount the breaker box till the electricians show up tonight.  Also wired the outlet boxes in the back porch utility room- put in three at bench-top height in case the daughter and grandson ever want to make it into a hobby work room with a bench.  Tied in the light and switch- going to have the crew line this room with plywood today since I have a few sheets left over from the porch ceilings plus it gives a much more solid base to mount tool holders on- I love having tools arranged in sight where you can find them (not that I actually do this in my own shop- tools scattered everywhere in tool boxes, power tool cases and just sitting in a pile).  Won't look as nice as drywall but a lot more durable.  Trying to plan for what changes might occur in the future...   ???

Today the work crew is back so I'll start them on the utility room.  Then I have some fir-out work to do upstairs although I have to scare up some lumber for that from my air dry piles if it's there- just need some rough cut 2X4's and such since it's for the ceiling over the stairs and upper landing.  Also need some luan to put on the walls next to the tub- brings the drywall up flat to the tub for a smooth transition.  Need to put in the rest of the bathroom wall where we slid the tub and enclosure unit into place also.

Work crew will quit around 2:30 and the electricians should show up around 5.  Got to get lights and fans over for them to install in the porch ceilings- wife and daughter went shopping yesterday.  Good combination- wife is frugal, daughter is the one who has to live there, and they came back with good choices mostly.  Like all the women I know in the family, though, they start second-guessing themselves as soon as they see things outside the store.  We went through everything last night and she didn't like the vanity lights she'd picked for her bathroom, which meant the other light for that room wasn't right either.  Then I talked her into getting two more ceiling lights for the back porch since we'd already put up the boxes, and you can never have too much light, I say (old eyes don't see in the dark as well as they used to...   :'(  ).

In between being GC for both crews working today, got to pull logs and cut siding so daughter and grandson can stain/seal for the work crew to put up today and next couple of days.  Can't afford this crew after this week, so we have to finish all the siding and outside trim by Friday.  Going to be a race but thankfully, the storm broke last night and it's supposed to be clear, cool and sunny today- perfect working weather finally.   8)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on September 06, 2011, 07:36:32 AM
Looks like we now have several good working days ahead of us Lj.  Be careful.   :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 08, 2011, 06:02:06 AM
MM: your forecast was on the money- weather been so beautiful and pleasant to work in that we've been going like crazy.  First to update on plumbing and electrical stack outs.  Got the conduit installed for hooking the meter base on the outside of the west wall to the breaker box inside the pantry (first picture).  Called the electric company, they sent their man out to inspect at my request, just to make sure everything was to their satisfaction: it was!  Now just need a 200 amp breaker for the meter base: this will be the main disconnect for the house, no master breaker in the breaker box, unlike the last house I built.  The electricians showed up Tuesday night, and mainly planned what to do the rest of the week.  Managed to get some major work done mounting the meter base and breaker box and hooking up the wires to the box.  Didn't have the master breaker so they couldn't hook that up.  I'll get that today and we'll be ready for the underground feed to the meter base- paid for the extra underground wiring today (they only give 150' free with an all-electric house) and trenching and conduit from the pole to the house scheduled for Friday or early next week.  We had them put the last pole with overhead wires as far from the house as was practical to keep it out of sight and to save as many trees near the house as possible.  Electric company requires 30' clearance around the poles which is a whole lot of fine trees.  Electricians came back last night and really went at it, bringing along a forth man and getting a big chunk of the work done: boxes set in the kitchen, wires run from the kitchen, the back porch and some from the living room back to the breaker box.  Spent a lot of time putting up two fans and one light on the back porch- fans with lights always require a lot of assembly and these were a bear plus they're these too-modern remote control things made somewhere not America- lights came on when they hot wired them but no fans on either- have to figure out if it's something with the wiring or the remote control unit.  No options on manual operation: either the remote works, or nothing works on them: stupid but not my choice.  Second picture is boring- outlet boxes on the wall in the kitchen...  :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/plumbing_stack_out_2.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/electrical_stackout.jpg)

Next are several pictures of PVC and PEX plumbing plus the upstairs tub and enclosure that we had to trim down to fit.  Plumbing looking good but son had two kids get sick, one with ear infection and one last evening with some sort of virus ( he had to make the doctor run so no plumbing last night).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/plumbing_stack_out_3.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/plumbing_stack_out_7.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/plumbing_stack_out_8.jpg)

Now for the work crew doing siding- great progress, and in fact, too fast to keep up mainly because tropical storm Lee kept us from cutting and staining.  I'm now doing "just in time" delivery of stained lumber for the siding: I pull logs, cut and trim, haul to the work site, and then help daughter as needed to stain for the crew to put up sopping wet.  Makes a mess for sure: tapes all sticky, reddish stain all over the circular saw and miter saw, and hands slippery and messy, getting stuff on the impact drivers as well.  Not our original plan- given a week to dry, the pre-stained lumber is easy to handle and not messy; given about 10 minutes to dry and it's a mess.   >:(  The crew is handling it with good humor, and I'm planning some bonus rewards for them- a little extra cash and some new tapes.  Wish I could afford more since they've been life savers in terms of keeping construction on track but I do feel good about keeping them working in a down economy.

Pictures below so the front porch (south view) with siding finished.  Turned out beautiful.  They also got a lot of the west gable siding up and I'm not as happy with that.  I cut some fresh logs (from the power line crew trimmings) and air dried the lumber for a month or so- nice clean lumber with no blue stain.  That stuff stained beautiful with clear, deep color that just pops.  The Katrina logs are all heavily blue stained, and after staining with the "warm pecan" Woodguard, it has a muddy look to it that I don't like.  Haven't asked the daughter's opinion- doesn't matter now anyway since we're committed to using it, but in the future, I won't use blue stain pine for siding again.   :(  I'll get pictures today to show what I mean.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/front_porch_siding.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3671/front_porch_siding_2.jpg)

Five am and time to start work- at least I'm not having trouble getting to sleep, keeping two separate crews supplied and on-task.  Good news is I'm making lumber again and the mill is working flawlessly.  Cutting some of the best boards I've made yet, which isn't saying a lot compared to others on the forum, but I'm happy with the results.  Got to get to Lowe's by 6 when they open so I can get supplies for the work crew (roll of brown flashing stock to "break" into flashing for the trim between the lap siding and the B&B above on gable ends) plus a 200 amp breaker, some wire, some switches and outlets, so the electricians can be productive tonight and we can get set up to have "real" juice in the house for lights and tools.  Running everything right now off one 10 gauge extension cord makes things tough- when the compressors on, you can't saw, and the fan won't run if anything else is on.  More later...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on September 08, 2011, 07:28:04 AM
Sounds like your ceiling fans are the same as the ones Kathy bought.  Can't turn them on with the wall switch.  The one I put in the master bedroom is on two way switches.  Not sure what to do as Kathy does like the remote control.  After we move in and she gets tired of that idea, I think I can wire them to bypass the remote control.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 09, 2011, 08:48:00 PM
Ok, so guess what the problem was with the fans?  Sure and all, we'd been working all day, the electricians had not had supper yet and it was pretty dang dark, but to leave the plastic wrap on the batteries when you put them in the remote control units?  Of course they don't work- batteries not making contact.  Daughter found the problem when she decided to start with the basics, replace the batteries and see if that helped, but lo and behold!  When she removed the cover and pulled out the battery, plastic cover and all, it hit her like a Mack truck...  :D  Thought I'd try my hand at dramatic writing but guess I'll keep my day job if I can just figure out what it is.  Picture below shows the north porch with trim around the now-functional fans and lights, all work done here except touch-up.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/north_porch_fans_up.jpg)

Got started late today- came down with the 2-day flu or whatever it is- caught it from the grandsons next door who both stayed home from school for two days.  Work crew showed up on time though, so I had to get the sawmill fired up and cut some lumber: made a few 3X3's for trim, cut a bunch of live edge siding, than moved on to 8" boards and 3" battens for the center of the east gable- highest part was 14' plus so had to cut them at 15'.  Then made some shorter ones.  Thought I had enough cut to keep them busy, and the crew chief had brought along his son to stain for us.  He was at it when we broke for lunch but I ended up sleeping for over an hour after and still no energy to do more today.  Luckily, they had enough to keep them busy and finished up the east wall lap siding and all the 3X3 trim needing to go up.  Guess I'll have to have them back one more day to do the B&B on the upper part of the east gable.  They had finished the west wall yesterday and it turned out great:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/west_siding_up.jpg)

Will still need to re-stain some of the pieces that didn't take the stain well first time, then touch up the fascia and soffit and that wall will be totally finished on the outside.  Now on the inside, the electricians showed up again last night and worked hard (three of them, although it was actually one boss and two workers), then surprised us by showing up again tonight (no boss, just the two hard workers).  Boss felt like he was missing out though, so on his drive home for the weekend he ended up calling almost everyone once, and the electricians a couple of times- no issues, just wanted updates.  Good news was lots of work done the last three days by these folks as shown in the pictures below.  :) :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/electricians_at_work.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/electricians_at_work_3.jpg)

Great people there, and easy to work with- just tell them what you want and get out of the way. Problem is, daughter Jessie sometimes has second thoughts (as do I) and we re-locate light boxes, switches and outlets trying to get everything perfect.  All told, the kitchen is pretty much done, the living area finished except for the fan-light unit that will hang way up at the top of the cathedral ceiling (we'll put up some scaffolding for that as soon as the work crew finishes up the gable siding) and they've got a good jump on the master bedroom and bathroom, the hot water heater and washer-dryer room.   They'll be moving upstairs next visit to do the boy's room and bathroom, guest room and loft work area.  Last will be the wiring for the mini-split units on the inside and compressor/heat pump on the outside.

Hope I'm feeling better in the morning- got a lot more lumber to mill for the gable B&B, plus need to cut some grass and bush hog- grass is now about 8" high and there are some places where the weeds are 2' so I need to get caught up.  Also will help plumber son with the last of the plumbing stack out.  Once we have that done, it's insulation time- yippee!  Only thing good about putting up fiberglas insulation bats and blowing in insulation near the eaves is having done it.  Being finished is too often the best part of many jobs, and there are only a few on building a house that fall in that category for me, insulation being the worst of the lot.

Hope the weather holds- been in the low 80's last couple of days with mornings so nice and cool you need a sweat shirt to start work.  Hope Magicman got a lot done at his place- weather was certainly favorable.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on September 09, 2011, 09:09:36 PM
In the last pic, I see one poor lonely longleaf pine lying there  :'(................. ;D.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 09, 2011, 09:14:31 PM
Good eyes, WDH- yeah, that was a real shocker: worker and I were just walking into the house to do some inside stuff the other day when Wham! and I turned in time to see our three-legged Beagle scrambling past the door like the devil was after him.  Turns out the wind broke off a branch from a tree right in the front yard (daughter says "back yard!  Front yard is where the front porch is..."   ???  ).  It just clipped the roof and put a couple small dents in the rake edge- no dents in the roofing itself.  Since daughter didn't seem too upset when she saw it, I'll wait on replacing the dented flashing and maybe the problem will just go away... doesn't work with anything else, but maybe there's a first time.   ;D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on September 09, 2011, 09:35:26 PM
Lj
You are coming along nicely and the home is looking good.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on September 09, 2011, 09:38:00 PM
That was a stout limb!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 10, 2011, 05:31:05 AM
Well, limb may not be the best way to describe the tree- actually, it forked at about 20' and since that is unusual in pines we have, we kept that tree even though it was close to the house.  Going to do a major thinning this fall or winter- need to clean out the area around the new house plus a couple of smaller plots I planted about 13 years ago.  Problem is, prices for pulpwood are so low, it's not worth the trouble...  :(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on September 10, 2011, 06:57:19 AM
Even though the price is low, it is still better to thin to get the silvicultural value of the increased growth on the residual trees to jump start their growth to sawlog stage.  The sawlog value is 4 - 5 times that of pulpwood, so why not grow sawlogs rather than pulpwood?

Of that course that presupposes that you have enough acres to justify a logging crew coming in and doing the thinning.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 10, 2011, 07:51:29 AM
That's the real problem, WDH- the few acres needing thinning right now don't make it worthwhile for a crew to come in.  I could cut and haul to a landing, but can't find anyone willing to come load and haul for me...

Most of our land was owned previously by a group that used volunteer reseeding and they harvested a fair amount just before we bought the land- now on this part we have a few dozen good size trees per acre (sawlogs or about to be) plus lots of smaller stuff struggling to get high enough to be thinned.

Oh, well, back to topic: off to cut lumber for B&B siding, then over to the house to build steps coming down from front porch to a landing.  Should be fun and the weather is cool and clear: hallelujah!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 13, 2011, 09:30:33 PM
Short update on last two days progress.  Did get the siding cut but didn't make any stairs- too much else to do with the siding.  Turns out the crew had finished all the live edge lap siding and it's looking good- picture below.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/east_siding.jpg)

Had about two dozen pieces of live edge boards that we now didn't have any immediate use for so I took it back to the sawmill and trimmed it down to the 7 3/4" for boards plus lots of 3" for battens.  Also pulled three logs that are six-years dry and cut them into boards and battens.  Daughter and I spent part of yesterday and four hours today touching up and staining all of these (next picture).  Turns out the crew was on another job for two days but got a call today that they'll be back tomorrow to finish up the B&B on the east end.  Daughter was complaining some about the smell of the stain and how it was ruining her hands for playing the bagpipes... till I reminded her that that was probably the last board we'd need, staining for exterior siding was finished!  Hope we got the count right on the B&B- hate to have to call her up to do some more.  Good news for the crew in the morning- these boards will at least have had 12 hours to dry.   :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/stained_siding_to_finish.jpg)

Rest of yesterday and part of today was more of the "this and that" kind of work.  First finished up the ceiling trim on the south porch after the electricians had hung and wired the lights and fans there (next picture below), then put in the last three pieces of end seal under the bottom edge of the metal roofing; screwed the last couple of feet down and now the roof is totally done (no picture- nothing to see). 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/south_porch_ceiling_done.jpg)

Worse job was taking my air chisel to the footing under the meter base.  I'd planned on the underground pipe coming in and left a hole for it.  Problem was, I forgot to take into account the almost 3" of siding that the conduit has to fit flat against up to the meter base: dang it all!   >:(  Took me almost four hours of chiseling alternating with sledge hammer to make a hole big enough for the 3" conduit that the electric company will install.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/footing_hole_for_conduit.jpg)

With most concrete this would not have been all that tough, but I foolishly used 3000 lb concrete (high cement content = really, really hard and tough).  Oh, well, at least the footing will hold up well.  The electric company had us scheduled for install today but didn't show up- disappointed the electricians when they came on shift at 5 since they had hoped to rig real lights to work under.  As it was, they had to work one more night by candle light, assuming that the juice will be hooked up in the morning.   ???

Electricians will be back tomorrow night and the night after to finish up the downstairs and hopefully do most of the upstairs.  Had a new face on the job tonight- 12 years doing house hook ups a couple of counties over.  He took a look at the meter base, breaker box and wiring between them and raised questions about sizing: "I'd never hook juice up to that" are close to what he said.  One of the others got on line and got specs on the wire we'd run, and said it was close- 200 amp base and box really needed one size thicker wire, but what we'd used just might work.  It was decided then to relocate the mini-split condenser and heat pump to the end of the house next to the meter base so it could be hooked in directly to the breakers under the meter, by-passing the breaker box.  Also relocated the wire for the range to the meter base as well (or we will tomorrow after I pick up couplings to tie it in through the kitchen wall).  These two "adjustments" take a big load off the breaker box, so if we have to cut down amps coming inside we can: got a 100 amp I can slip in to replace the 200 amp breaker now in the meter base.  All depends on what the electrical company workers (engineers, I hope) think when they put in the underground wiring.

Tomorrow should be a momentous day: exterior siding finished by end of day plus underground electricity installed and hooked up to give us "real" juice in the house, not piped through a couple hundred feet of extension cords.   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on September 13, 2011, 09:49:37 PM
Lj,

That water oak is straining to get into the picture in the third pic  ;D.  Water oaks have always liked the spotlight  :).

That live edged siding looks great!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 13, 2011, 11:40:08 PM
Hi LJmathias.

Your scarfolding is the usual type in the US? How wide is it? What kind of boards do you use on it? Looks different than what i'm used in france or UK.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 14, 2011, 05:36:14 AM
WDH: you have an eye for detail- your middle name isn't "Sherlock Holmes" is it?  Actually, that would be two middle names, I guess... We're hoping to free up that tree when we thin this winter, give it room to grow and add shade near the house.  Not sure if daughter wants to keep the pines forever (speaking on a human time scale, of course) or just till market size for sawlogs.  There's no way I know to plant a follow-on generation of trees that would grow up after the pines are gone, assuming that would be part of the long term planning- ideas?

Satamax: not sure of the exact sizes, but those are standard in the US.  All the equipment rental companies carry that size and while I've seen smaller versions and different designs (mainly for interior work), every exterior project I've seen around here either uses these or home-built scaffolding nailed and braced onto the house walls.  These home-made scaffolds are removed as the house evolves but I see no way of using them to put on siding like ours- you have to start at the bottom for lap siding the way we did it, although now that I think about it, you could do the board and batten on top first.  Still be impractical to put up 16' boards from a scaffolding that is basically nailed to the house and in the way.  Maybe someone else with experience with this type could describe how to use it.  Of course, there's always bamboo as used in the middle East- I've seen bamboo skeletons around some pretty tall buildings.  Wouldn't try this here- our bamboo tends to be about half and inch in diameter.   :D

I'll measure the scaffolding when I go out this morning.  Nice thing about metal units like these is they're easy to build up- even one man can do it alone with some careful thinking about logistics of how to position each piece so you can climb up one level and pull it up and into place.  Other advantage is strength- the are solid and don't sway as  long as you place the bottom legs on firm supports, not just dirt plus use both crisscross braces for each section.  Sometimes it's easier to use just one brace, leaving the outside open for moving in and out while you work.  The walk boards I have hold everything together pretty well also- I'll get pictures for you.  That's one of the nice features of the aluminum frame walk boards I bought: they have two hooks on each end that go over the beams and lock in tight- no slipping and they firm up the whole structure.  Before I bought those to go with the metal frames I used 2X10's as walk boards- they bounce a lot, and worse, they can slip.  Putting anti-slip boards nailed or screwed under the ends to keep them from falling off works, but makes them heavy and cumbersome.

Thanks for asking- I'll get photos and describe the scaffolding in more detail.  They are a crucial safety feature for me- I absolutely hate working off a ladder 26' up.   >:(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 14, 2011, 06:51:54 AM
Hi LJ.

Thanks a lot for the reply.  What pulled my eye, is the width of your scarfolding. Ours are narower, usualy tower scarfold here is built pretty much the same as yours. But it's around 3 feet wide.
Like most of what you can see here.
http://www.google.fr/search?q=%C3%A9chafaudage+fixe&um=1&hl=fr&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGLL_frFR371FR371&biw=1245&bih=538&tbm=isch&source=lnt&tbs=itp:photo&sa=X&ei=mIVwTqTJMK3V4QSfyr2cCQ&ved=0CCMQpwUoAg (http://www.google.fr/search?q=%C3%A9chafaudage+fixe&um=1&hl=fr&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGLL_frFR371FR371&biw=1245&bih=538&tbm=isch&source=lnt&tbs=itp:photo&sa=X&ei=mIVwTqTJMK3V4QSfyr2cCQ&ved=0CCMQpwUoAg)

And here's mine, a bit specialist i admit. Cantilevered, two spacer bars against the wall, and a cable arount the plate or purlins. Sometimes i drill the purlins to make a capstan if there's wood directly on top. Held by cable ties. Now i have aluminium platforms. Before i had steel. Lovely on top of a 36' ladder.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19153/2223/chevronage.jpg)

I need to buy myself a rolling tower scarfold one of thoses days.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Radar67 on September 14, 2011, 07:09:02 PM
LJ, that is standard 5x5 scaffold, or more commonly refered to as brick scaffold.

Statamax, I have seen some use 2x8 or 2x10 planks, doubled as walk boards. These scaffold systems have steel or aluminum walk boards that are 18 inches wide and lock into place once you set them. I have a set at a friends house. Once I get them back, I will try to get some pictures of them. They are listed on scaffoldstore.com about as cheap as you can find.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 14, 2011, 09:53:14 PM
Radar beat me to it- yes, dimensions are 5'X5'X7' with braces that snap into place just by lining up the hole and lifting the lock-in mechanism.  On top of each leg is the connector for adding the next section- pictures below illustrate all this.  First is the brace connection close-up, then the leg-top connector, then an overview of the criss-cross brace and last, the multi-level assembly reaching up to the peak.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/scaffolding_brace.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/scaffolding_connector.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/scaffolding_brace_2.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3616/scaffolding_three_tiers_up.jpg)

I've used walk boards made from 2X stock that is at least 8' long and it works fine except for the springiness when walking on it and its tendency to shift if not locked in place somehow.  The metal walk boards are much better and more secure feeling.

So the assembly in the last picture was used by the work crew to finish up siding the gable end- turned out fantastic!  We didn't take an accurate measurement of how many boards we needed- hard to do given the tapering nature of the gable ends, but we came pretty close, maybe a handful each of the boards and battens.  Guess I'll take the surplus back to the barn till I find a use for them.  In summary, then: a very good day with siding essentially complete except for a few touch-up spots.  Just as they were finishing up, I called my daughter who has been suffering hand and arm pains from staining.  Told here we had misjudged and was she up to some more staining?  Say about 50 boards?  There was silence on the other end for a few seconds, then this plaintive voice answers, "Fifty boards?"  She sounded so sad, I couldn't keep up the pretense any more and started laughing- she still hasn't forgiven me but the good news is- staining and cutting lumber for the outside of the house is all done!   8)

Electricians came back tonight, all ready to hook up some temporary lights from the electricity now hooked up to the meter base and through that to the inside breaker box: no luck, no juice, no reasons given.  I called during the day just to confirm that even though they didn't get to it yesterday, it was still on their list for today- "It's scheduled to be completed today," I was told- Hah!  No joy on electricity this day.  So no lighting from solid electricity tonight.  Instead, and just in case, I bought a couple more drop lights and bulbs- got those hooked up and the four of them worked till after dark.  Almost done with downstairs now and boxes set upstairs.  They'll finish pulling wires and setting recessed cans in various places, and should finish up early tomorrow evening.  Then I'll get the plumber back on the job to finish up the stack-out so we can move on to insulation- yeah, fiberglas in the skin everywhere and sweaty as all get out because we're wearing long-sleeve shirts and pants (not long-sleeve pants though) to keep it out as much as possible.  Should be great fun!   :D

This is shaping up to be the week that things get done.  If we can keep the ball rolling (and get the electric company to man up) we'll have finished all exterior siding, the ceilings and fixtures on both porches, got the electricity all the way to and into the house, and got all the rough wiring installed on the inside.  Problem is, my real job has reared its ugly head and I have a major report to finish by the end of the week- not much work out of me for the time being...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Radar67 on September 14, 2011, 10:34:47 PM
LJ, talcum powder is your friend when insulating. Completely cover your arms and any exposed skin with as heavy a coat as you can. The theory is the powder seals your pores and prevents the fiberglass from embedding in them. Do not re-apply while covered in insulation. A shower as soon as possible after is warranted. We used to use this trick when working commercial construction and it works. There is a noticeable difference when you forget to powder up.  :o
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 15, 2011, 12:04:19 AM
Thanks Radar67.

Well, i'm in france!  ;D and i have aluminium boards for my scarfold.  

Next buys for my scarfolding kit, a rolling tower scarfold.  Dearrrrrrrrrr!

Then two corner cantilever consoles

longer spacing bars, 5' long for big roof overhangs.

L bars for using on even longer roof overhang.

Here's how my scarfold works.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19153/2223/console-Dimos-_lingue-05.jpg)

Different countries, different scarfold ;D

LJ, on the french tower, we don't have the crosses, but instead a buldle of tubes welded together which acts as a handrail and abracing. And it's all assembled with a kind of C shaped jaw with a wedge closing it. Only tool you need to assemble french scarfold, is a hammer. But that makes it  stiff the way it's assembled.

Hey, by the way, sorry to hijack soo often.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on September 15, 2011, 08:37:03 AM
You should not have an itch problem with the new fiberglas.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on September 15, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
only 65cm wide :o  I take it nobody drinks on the job then :D  J/K
guess you can't use it as a dance deck either 8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18964/2283/152.jpg)
don't ask, dried in frame deserved a victory dance  :D

The siding is looking great LJ, looks like you're going from half done to done in no time.  At this rate you guys will be having turkey dinner in the new house ;D   
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 15, 2011, 03:07:33 PM
Frwinks, nope, on a roof, no one drinks, at the end of the day, may be a beer or two, but that's while cleaning.
But realy, it's comfy, with the handrail and net, i've ended up in it once, makes you feel safer when you're about 30' to 40' off the tarmac underneath. 

And i admit having lamentably failed an afternoon last year, when i drank with my workmate John during lunch break, and ended up laying a board of osb on the joists we were working on, and sleeping most of the afternoon on it. He did too! Too much of a drop underneath for a drunk Max.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 16, 2011, 11:02:08 AM
Well, turns out I don't drink at all anymore- too much of a distraction and I'm through with most of the addictive substances we all accept too readily.  Not preaching, just saying.. ;)

In any event, this has been a banner week.  First off, the siding was completed all around, and picture below is of the finished east gable end.  Second, the crew finished up some detail work- had 'em for the whole day but only needed them for half a day.  They finished the ceiling rafters over the stairs and into the upstairs bath, put firring in along one wall where the 2X4 uprights on the trusses weren't wide enough to match the 2X6 walls (guess the truss engineer missed that), built a small closet in the guest room upstairs, and tied in the pressure treated stringers and steps for the front (south) porch.  Second picture shows work in progress on the steps, third is the finished steps.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/east_gable_sided.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/front_porch_steps.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/porch_steps_done.jpg)

Big news was getting the underground electrical put in.  Electric company had us scheduled two days in a row for the install- didn't show up; finally made it on the third day, yesterday.  First thing was to dig the trench.  Started with the backhoe to make a pit big enough to work in at the meter base (first picture below).  Then they used a Ditchwitch to "chainsaw" the dirt out- 4" wide, 3' deep all the way from the meter base to the pole (210', no pictures- forgot the camera).  Then they glued the 3" PVC underground conduit together and laid it in the trench, covered it up and pulled wire through.  The last (second picture below) involved threading a stiff wire through, hooking a strong tape to the wire and pulling that back, then using the tape to pull the cable through (third picture, three wires, 2 positive and one neutral) using a pulley and the bucket on the Ditchwitch.  Finally hooked up the wires at the meter base (next picture) and then at the pole.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/starting_the_trench.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/pulling_wire_underground.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/wire_for_underground.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/meter_base_hooked_up.jpg)

During the wire threading process, one of the other crew members was burying the conduit, filling in the trench and pit, and more or less smoothing things out and pressing the dirt down. Of course, first rain and I'll have to scoop and scrape more dirt into the trench...   :)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/partially_filled_trench.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/trench_to_pole.jpg)

Then they hooked the wires into the transformer on the last pole before the underground section, checked voltage at the meter and packed up to head to the next job.  Voltage at the pole is 7,200 and steps down to 220 coming into the meter base (two at 110 each).  We have a 200 amp meter base with half a dozen breaker slots we'll use for the range (hooked up directly from inside the kitchen to a meter base breaker) and the outside unit for the HVAC mini-split.  Both are 220 volts but doing it this way takes a big load off the breaker box on the inside.  It's also rated at 200 amps but no need to overload it- got a bunch of lights and outlets with home-runs filling up the box pretty much as it is, along with the 220 30 amp for the electric hot water heater and the same for the clothes dryer.

Other good news- lots of progress by our volunteer electricians (time is volunteered, not them being electricians  :) :D ).  Got more boxes set for switches and outlets throughout and I think these are pretty much all in place now.  Any area with potential computer setups (on the loft and in grandson's bedroom) they put in one or more double boxes (two outlets with four plug capability total).  Still have to do the recessed light cans over the stairwell (three evenly spaced) and hook up lots of the wires at junction boxes scattered throughout the house.  Also need to wire for the mini-split units (four of those) and put in the freon lines for each as well.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/wiring_in_progress_2.jpg)

Hopefully we can finish up plumbing stack out so we can start insulation...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on September 18, 2011, 07:04:51 PM
Lj, that East gable end has some very nice lines.   :)   You are progressing nicely.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 20, 2011, 06:47:46 AM
Thanks, MM, and yes, it's going great.  Spent Saturday doing clean up.  Site had gotten real messy as the siding got finished with all the end pieces and culls laying around.  Had two burn piles that needed to go away, so did one on Saturday and one on Sunday- we do have water at the site so things were fine in terms of controlling the burns.  Cleaned things up pretty good but still have a bunch of wood left over that I need to use or relocate-pictures when we get things neat and clean again.  Making a trip to the dump today, in fact, with metal scraps from the roof and all the burnt tools and stuff from our accidental burning a while back- got tired of being reminded of that! 

Thinking about using some of the 1X3 battens left over from siding to make the rails for the south porch.  Daughter doesn't like the 2X6 pressure treated planks I'd screwed to the posts way back when I was "relocating" that end of the porch...  :D  Time enough for that as we proceed- concentrating on plumbing and electrical stack outs now and hope to finish those this week, although "work" is now getting in the way of work.   :(

Also, planning on going to the second "official" meeting of the Southern Chapter at Magicman's place this coming weekend.  Can't afford the time but need to relax some and drive a little- I love a good roadtrip!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on September 20, 2011, 08:49:48 AM
LJ:
I need some advice on metal roofing installation.

Did you pre-bore all the holes in the panels on the ground?

If so how did that work? Did you do one panel at a time or group bore?

How did the edge support work out, did it hold each sheet in the correct spot for the first screw?

Jim Rogers

PS. if there are posts above that tell answers to these questions please let me know the post number. thanks
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 20, 2011, 04:01:33 PM
Jim, if i may.

Over here I work nearly all the time with steel.

Here's what i can do

http://satamax.free.fr/toitgayet.jpg

So you start at one end, laying the bottom piece of steel, I slightly bend the ends with a homemade tool to make a crease which prevents th steel from cupping. Lay it square to the bottom, I usually trace a square line with the help of good old Pythagoras. Then when in place you take one or two slate nail, and nail the very top of the piece of steel in the flats, and this should keep it in place and square. Then start nailing the steel with hammer in rawbolts, with a metal and rubber washer. I just hammer through the ridge of the steel in the middle of the batten below. On the first ridge, then with a straight edge, I aim at the center of the batten below, visible on the side of the piece of steel. And trace a line between the first rawbolt and the edge of the steel on the ridges. That's where your rawbolts belong. If there's several pieces of steel go on top of each other, do the top row's first piece too. Then go back to the bottom, then back to the top etc. This prevents a bit "fanning, as when you hammer of screw the ridges get squeezed and open a bit, if you do bottom row completely then top row, they'll never line up, and you're in for a headache. I crease the bottom of the steel on the flats on the overlaps too. Repeat the tracing between the last rawbolt and the edge of the steel, in the middle of the batten for every line of rawbolts. I do 60cm spacing between centers. and nail every 120cm, leaving a batten just for support except if the customer wants it criss crossed, when you alternate the rawbolts on every batten, one ridge has a rawbolt at bottom batten, then the next ridge has a rawbolt  60cm up, then next ridge rawbolt is on the same line as the first one etc! We do it like this with snow-stops too.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 20, 2011, 09:58:24 PM
Jim: I think Satamax described an alternative way using nails instead of screws- not usually recommended over here.  Screws are the way to go for a number of reasons- ease of one-handed insertion and much tighter, more tenacious binding.  Here's what I did when I started: carefully laid the 1X4 lathing (2X4 or bigger would also work but I already had 1/2" OSB decking down and I nailed the lathing directly into the trusses through the OSB using galvanized ring-shank nails).  I was told repeatedly by the metal roof supplier NOT to use pressure treated lathing as this voids the warrenty- corrodes the metal roofing.  Screws were supplied in the same color as the metal.  I've described in several earlier posts the sequence I used to get exactly 2' spacing between rows of lathing plus measuring for the metal length and alignment on the roof, but I learned an important lesson: don't forget your overhang/drip-edge at the bottom.  Put down your drip edge and tack it in place, then decide how much overhang you want on the roofing- usually 2-4"; I picked 3" based on supplier recommendation.  

NOW, don't forget to remember that you need this overhang when you predrill your holes, otherwise your holes won't line up with the lathing.  Measure from what will be the bottom up 4 1/2" to get the last or bottom row of screws into the bottom piece of lathing, and don't forget there is a right and left hand to the metal- top of next sheet overlaps the wider edge of the last sheet.  Now measure up in 2' increments on both sides of the top sheet of 5-8 stacked up sheets, then mark where you need to drill using a straight edge.  I put holes in every row in the sheets- four total for each sheet in the design we picked, and went with 2' spacing because of hurricanes and high winds.  When you get ready to pre-drill, buy a box of bits the right size- a little smaller than the screws.  Hold the metal firm, as flat as possible and drill carefully as the bit tends to bind and break off with even a little bit of play.  This was not too hard for even the 26' pieces I had, just requires care, working slowly.  Seems to take a fair amount of time but saves you a whole heck of a lot of messing around trying to get a screw started either with a hammer or pounding on the butt of the driver with your hand or just pushing down hard and letting the screw spin for a long time before it melts its way in...  With pre-drilled holes, they go right in and it's much safer if you're leaning in from the side or roped off on top.

This method (not mine by the way but I forget where I read about it) makes installation fast and easy but requires very careful spacing and alignment of the lathing and the holes- even a small deflection or mis-measurement means the holes won't hit the lathing, and then you have problems (how do I know this?).

It was recommended to me to just do one sheet first and make sure everything lines up, but I jumped in a did a half dozen right off the bat and it worked fine.  If you visualize and plan carefully, as you do any way, then it will be the preferred way to go, I think.

By the way, what is the slope on your roof?  Anything over 5/12 and you have to take safety seriously.  Actually, you have to take safety seriously no matter what the slope...  :D

Oh, and use a string or snapped line to keep the tops lined up, or run a string out from the bottom- I've done both ways and it's faster to work from the top as square, an assumption not always true.  Make sure you do your layout to get the first piece down square to the edge and more importantly, square to the other end of the roof- any misalignment means ugly adjustments along the way to keep your overhang the same.  Also, don't make your ridge vent slot too wide- all you need is an inch or two on each side of the peak, and if you make it too wide, water gets in and it's a mess, or you are forced to use a much wider ridge cap.

Good luck and keep the pictures coming on your raising.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 20, 2011, 11:06:21 PM
LJ, i'm not talking of nails, but hammer in rawbolts.

http://www.bricodepot.fr/toulon/node/467645 Theses. Screw thread, so in the future you can unscrew them. and hex head. Thought they hammer in. I predrill when i have 3 or four layers  meeting at the corners. Two, i don't bother. Here we're told to use 40mm (1.6 inch) lathing, what i was calling battens in my previous post, sorry. Usualy i use wet larch, it's somewhat resistant to rot, and squezes the bolts when drying.

LJ, what diameter are your screws? Did you use washers? The rawbolts are 8mm 5/16th and with the metal expanding and contracting with heat and cold, after a few years, you have a half inch slot. Hence the washer. 

Lj, jmho, your method seems nice. But not realy aplicable whan you have tu run the steel at an angle, and sometimes you have to. Or you're redoing an old roof. You would see the shape of some! ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on September 21, 2011, 08:53:48 AM
LJ:
thanks a lot that's just what we needed.

Jim

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 22, 2011, 05:59:17 AM
Satamax: screws have a 3/8" head which is color matched to the metal- makes for a nice looking roof.  Not sure of the thread diameter, mayber 3/16"?  They come with washers already on them- 40 year lifetime, they say.  Key is to not leave them loose or overtighten and squash the washer, opening up tiny cracks in the surface of the rubber washer that can oxidize and degrade the rubber.

Some companies are now selling screw guns for color matched screws that come in a linked group like nails for an air-powered nail gun- no reloading every screw, just align, start and tighten down, then on to the next screw which is loaded in automatically.  Expensive but a time saver for the professionals.  Too expensive for DIY's like me who would only use it a few times, plus the screws are lots more expensive, I believe.

Diagonal not hard at hard- you can see the lathing on the side with no metal yet and the last screw on the previous piece of metal- only 3' wide so easy to put screws in a line... just can't pre-drill, if that's what you mean.  You have to use the hammer it in to get it started technique.

Never seen your "rawbolts" over here although I bet we do have them.  Problem is the same with screws and no pre-drill, though: requires two good hands and standing on the metal while you work.  For steep roofs, this is still problematic...  unless you're a pro and set up for it.   ;)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 22, 2011, 07:42:57 AM
Hi LJ.

The technique described earlier,  doing a vertical row after another allows to walk on the lathing. I usualy trase, then put one foot and a knee on the steel, and the other on a batten from the lathing. Knee against a steel ridge. It's quite easy. But you'll notice, we have hooks under the ridge for the ropes. Helps with the finishing stages, and doing repair work if some is needed.  But i told you before, good ruber shoes for holding on the metal is a good thing to get. The only problem of hammering is the bruises on the thumb and  top of the left hand.

:D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 22, 2011, 01:38:01 PM
That's how I do it also, Satamax, and I thought I was the only one to have those bruises- I seem to get them every time I pick up a hammer!

Progress on the house: electricians worked well last night and hooked up lots of lights using "pigtails" which are just light sockets with two wires that you wire into the sockets for testing continuity and providing light for workers.  Lots of lights working now, and they also tested many of the downstairs outlets, and they work.  Did have one surprise: they'd tested the two back porch fan/light combos individually and they worked fine, then when they wired them into a switch and made it hot, sparks flew and the breaker blew.  After checking wiring, it turns out someone got tired and wired the hot lead into the ground on one of the fans- worked ok alone but made a direct short with the other one.  Easily fixed, and shows why it's important to check all the wiring before the insulation is in and the drywall up!  Same applies to plumbing- you don't want to see your drywall slowly dissolving under the fine misting spray of a not-quite-tight PEX ring.   :D  Been there, done that...

Tonight will see most of the upstairs hooked up and checked plus the 220 lines to outlets for range and dryer hooked up and tested (with a mutlimeter).  After that, we just have a couple outside lights, the equipment room and the lines for the mini-splits to run along with the freon tubes.

An insulation company rep came out to measure and prepare an estimate- all the builders I know say it's almost as cheap to hire them to do it (with them supplying the insulation) as it is to just buy the insulation- labor is almost a freebie.  The same doesn't apply to drywall, but I really, really hate doing it so I'm willing to pay for that.  Assuming we get electricity and plumbing done by end of next week, insulation and dry wall hung the week after and all the dry wall mudded and sanded out the week after, we just might make my daughter's desired occupation date of Halloween!  Still have to get cabinets (made the decision to buy- hate it! but time is running out), get the septic tank and field installed (one day for this) and then the finish work on the inside which I love.  The flooring is going to be slow- got to get a Woodmaster (seems the best way to go), plane the wood, T&G it, lay it and then finish.  We can do it after they move in- one room at a time.

Well, at least rain doesn't slow us down anymore, and cold is a ways off so we can work comfortably...   8)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on September 22, 2011, 03:31:42 PM
Well, as it seems I'm not the only one who can't stand drywall! :D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on September 22, 2011, 07:33:45 PM
Drywall was one of my bigger mistakes on the house I'm building now.  I can do drywall fine, but by myself, it would have taken a month or more to hang it, and another few weeks to tape/finish.  I don't have much experience with knockdown as I've always worked for a level 5 finish (smooth as a babies butt).  I decided to contract it out and wanted a knockdown texture finish...cause it's cheaper.  My crew assured me any imperfections in finish or sanding would be hid by the texture.  It looked good to my eye when they got done with the texture.  I rolled USG First Coat primer than shot Sherwin Williams satin paint.  The joints showed way too much for my taste.  Kathy thought the job looked good...maybe I'm to picky.

The crew had ok references from a couple of builders but I wonder how close they looked.  I only looked at one of there jobs but apartently not close enough.

If I had a do-over I would still have hired them to do the job but not the texture.  As soon as they left I would have gone over the joints with another coat of mud and sanded with a light.  Texture is not that big of deal...I can do it good nuff with a HF cheap gun.

Live and learn from your (my) mistakes.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on September 22, 2011, 08:38:51 PM
I Hates Sheetrock (Drywall)  :).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on September 23, 2011, 06:58:16 AM
I made the statement yesterday that weather was not a problem now that we were dried in good and tight- Mother Nature has a way of making a lie out of what us mere mortals say, don't she?  Thunderstorm blew in just before the electricians were to show up- lightning and heavy rain.  It was the lightning that changed the plan- electricians said they couldn't work with that going on... duh!  With our luck lately, having lightning hit so many trees on the land, we didn't want some bolt hitting a pole and following the wiring into the house, knocking one of these guys tail over head feathers. >:(  So instead, they all went out to dinner.   :D

Oh, well, they'll be back...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on September 23, 2011, 08:17:40 AM
I can't really blame them for stopping.  When a storm blows in or I hear thunder, I quit work too.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on September 23, 2011, 10:46:17 AM
Building is progressing at a fantastic rate, LJ! 8) Thanks for all the descriptions and pictures.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 03, 2011, 08:12:30 AM
Sorry to be so long to update- had the Southern Chapter meeting to go to and then do some actual actual work to get paid for...  :(  Strange how money runs out if you spend it.   ???

So the plumber and electricians have been slaving away on the stack outs and they're almost done, maybe 90%.  Heard a statement one time that seems to fit lots of projects: The first 90% of a job takes 90% of the effort and the last 10% takes the other 90% of effort...  Anyway, hope to wrap those up early this week so we can move on to insulation.  Bad news on the insulation- been told that it's almost as cheap to have it done with the sub supplying materials than to buy the materials and do it myself... well, the price of materials must have gone way up recently!  On my son's house, we had the insulation installed in a day for about $1700; two estimates for this house (roughly the same size) are $2700 and $2500!  Haven't actually figured prices yet but can't believe materials would be any where near that much... guess I better check out supplies.

Getting down to crunch time now and I'm really feeling the pressure to get her finished: we have a tentative move-in date of Halloween, and if we make that it will be without flooring installed.  We have a salvage place here that buys up inventory from storm damaged warehouses and outlets.  Bought a tub and two vanities (I'd planned on making these but faster this way) for about half market value.  Also bought about 1000 sq ft of pre-finished T&G solid wood flooring for half price...less then $3/sq ft.  Since I didn't have the moulder/woodmaster set-up to do make this yet (roughly $6000 new), the chief financial officer opted for the ready-made stuff... oh, well, have to put off buying that toy (oops, tool) for another time when I'm rich and famous.   :(

Still don't have a quote on drywall install and floating, septic tank and field and cabinets (I'm planning on buying these now as I can't make the move-in date making them, dang it).  Pressures beyond my control (anxious daughter and grandson) are making the trade off of time vs money for me... hence the hard work to get more money.

Also have a trip to Maryland for this week- going to the USM (my school) game against Navy in Annapolis.  I don't watch sports (or TV for that matter- no time) but this is a business trip- son's charter boat is providing trips for attendees on the Chesapeak before and day of game.  We'll help sail it up there from Tilghman Island down the coast and help as crew as needed.  Mostly though we're going to see the family- two boys are growing like weeds (don't they all?) and we need to catch up.  Hope to get pictures of all that.

Off to do clean up at the house: started yesterday by assembling all the tools and supplies- wow, didn't know I'd carried over that much stuff!  Now I have to haul it home and find a place for it which means doing some clean up in the barn.  Also have a lot of wood, plywood, scraps (to build stuff out of for the grandkids) and such to find a place to store.  Need to completely empty the inside so insulation, drywall and trim-outs can take place for electrical, plumbing and wood.  We'll be humping for the next four weeks!

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 03, 2011, 06:37:18 PM
Some pictures of recent efforts.  First is a burn pile from all the scraps from siding and framing.  Pile was really too big and we should have burned it in stages, but at least it didn't take any tools or picnic tables with it...   :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/burn_pile.jpg)

And here's what happens when your angry sub also happens to be your son... the plumber finishing up!

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/angry_plumber.jpg)

And the kids (first piccture) and Nana with Lila (dragon girl to the family sometimes) already enjoying the front porch- beautiful view and the weather has been great last few days.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/chillin_on_the_porch.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/BJ_and_Lulu.jpg)

And here's the stack of boxes of pre-finished T&G flooring, 3 1/2" wide; should be enough to cover all the downstairs that won't be tile or vinyl (closets and bathroom and washer dryer room).  Beautiful wood with end joints to keep things smooth...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/flooring_boxes.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3680/flooring_colors.jpg)

Got a lot of clean up done inside.  Also primed and painted the plywood in the outside equipment room- small but should be functional (forgot to get pictures but will get them tomorrow).

Lj

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Bill Gaiche on October 03, 2011, 07:45:33 PM
ljmathias, Its looking good. Hope you make that deadline to move in. Your going to have yourselves one nice compfy place to live. bg
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on October 05, 2011, 11:59:57 AM
Good to see your update Lj.  At least yours is moving.  My Cabin Addition is at a standstill for how.   :-\
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on October 05, 2011, 08:03:39 PM
Store bought flooring may not have the character and nostalgic effect of home made, but it probably will go down easier.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 15, 2011, 07:57:57 PM
I'm baaaaacckk!  At least for a while- I hate it when work gets in the way of fun!  Anyway, got some things done and more about to happen real fast, especially if we plan on hitting our Halloween deadline...   :o

First thing was the insulation.  Bit the bullet and had it done at way too high a price, but we did get R19 in the walls and R30 in the ceiling, plus they foamed all the window and door frames and any cracks they could find.  We'll go back and check for leaks tomorrow...  Few pictures below show the insulation in place, but most importantly, the results of the massive clean up that we did both inside and out.  Moved all the tools to the front porch (which is basically finished so I can store them there for a few days till we get to flooring and trim).  Moved all the left over wood to Lazarus (daughter's truck) and we'll move that over to storage tomorrow also...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/wall_insulation.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/ceiling_insulation.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/sound_insulation.jpg)

Major progress on the health and well being front- got the septic tank and field in!  This was probably the most reasonable money I've spent on the house, costing just a little more than the price of the tank and field pipe.  First set of pictures is of the tank hole being dug, the tank fitted and leveled up.  Thousand gallon tank takes a hole 6' deep and about 10' long...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/tank_hole.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/tank_truck.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/leveled_up.jpg)

Then they trenched a field hole 4' deep and about 10' wide, then laid the load of field pipe shown in the first picture on the truck in a line out from the tank, turned 150 degrees and a ways back toward the house.  County inspector was supposed to do a final check before they backfilled, but he's been so busy lately, he called and got the sub to describe it and promise to post a certification (??) but if he's happy, we're happy.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/digging_field.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/field_pipes.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/field_second_third.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/field_turn.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/field_final_section.jpg)

After all that work, took him about 20 minutes to back fill and level... turned out pretty good, and you'd never know it was there without the pictures.  That's one good reason to document everything with a new house- gives you a visual record later in case you need to find anything (septic tank lid for clean out) or want to dig near but not in the field...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/backhoe_covering_field.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3765/field_east_view.jpg)

What a great feeling knowing that we're all set up for occupation... when and if.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: dukndog on October 15, 2011, 10:17:07 PM
Nothing like that Graveless pipe!! I've never seen that many side by side though. Ours is a double run 18" deep, one going nw the other sw 150' each, but with that much sandy soil it should leach very well!!
Progress is coming along well. Thanks for keeping us updated!!!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: DouginUtah on October 15, 2011, 10:38:29 PM

How do you get R-19 in a 2x4 wall?
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 15, 2011, 11:20:51 PM
Walls are 2X6 so the answer (as far as I know) is, you don't.  We way overbuilt this place, for reasons of long term economics (keep the upkeep and utilities costs low) and for hurricane resistance.  The 2X6 walls are a bear to raise by yourself (especially with air dried rough cut lumber) but the strength is unbelievable.  Had several subcontractors say how strong and stout it felt...   :)  Oh, and the trusses for the ceiling were all at 12" deep, plenty of room for everything but somewhat more expensive.  Again, much stronger built than stick-framed and a whole lot easier to put up with two people and a telescopic forklift...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: DouginUtah on October 15, 2011, 11:54:06 PM

I missed that you had used 2x6s for your exterior walls. I think that is a wise choice.  8)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on October 16, 2011, 07:22:30 AM
I also did the 2x6 walls and have never regretted it (30 years ago  :)).  It does make trimming out windows and doors a little more interesting.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 17, 2011, 09:12:55 PM
Thicker walls are great for a number of reasons, some of which have already been noted.  Ran across a new one to me today- we were installing line sets for mini-split HVAC units and I can't even imagine doing it in 2X4 walls.  The line sets are pre-insulated copper tubing for the freon to get from the compressor (compressed, liquid state) to the inside units, which are individual room heat exchangers.  Here the liquid expands and cools rapidly, cooling air flowing over the expansion coils as well.  The expanded gas is carried back to the compressor through a much larger diameter copper pipe.  This is the one that's hard to work with: 1/4" and relatively stiff copper, makes it hard to bend and get through holes in the floor plates and ceiling top plates.  At least with 2X6" walls, you have some room to maneuver so you don't bend the copper too sharply and kink it (which we did, by the way, but not in the walls).  Long story short, it took two amateurs and one helper (daughter as needed to push or pull long runs) almost 7 hours to put in four sets of pipes, eight all told, plus 14-4 wire plus condensate piping.

Agonized over components to buy- local supply yards aren't helpful if you're not EPA certified to install these units.  Of course, being certified to handle the freon is one thing, but to install the rough plumbing and wiring in the walls before the drywall goes up?  Nah...

Oh, sure, there are good reasons to have a pro do it, and I almost did.  Got convinced by son the plumber that he knew enough to handle it after having done it at work with some professional HVAC installers.  He took one look at our efforts and was not very complimentary.  Said we should have been more careful with the insulation- we did tear some and will have to tape it up tomorrow or it will sweat when it gets hot again and the AC is running full bore.  He also was very critical of my decision to run 1/2" PEX as drain pipe for the condensate from each unit.  He had planned on doing 1 1/2" PVC and I'd already bought the T's and turns for that when I looked at the extra roll of PEX and thought about using that.  Checked with the on-line supply house and they said it would work, but son is probably right- gunk grows in condensate, something I've personally experienced with the central AC condenser in our house- got plugged once and ruined the carpet in the hall and one bedroom.  He does know what he's talking about- been asked by customers to re-plumb many condensate piping over the years.  So I guess tomorrow we rip out the 1/2" PEX and start install of the PVC piping.  We'll also tape up the tears... and, oh, yeah, couple the two pieces of one line set that bent so bad the tubing broke in half.   :D

Hope this approach works finally, and saves daughter and grandson money on heating and cooling.  Going to call in the morning and schedule the drywall hangers for TH/FR this week or early next.  Still got some install work to do though, like jackhammering out the drain pipe trough where the PVC drain will go in the master bath 'cause daughter changed her mind after we had the slab poured (and the frame up and enclosed) on what kind of tub she wanted which has the drain in the middle to one side rather than at the end...   >:(

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on October 17, 2011, 09:32:44 PM
You are a loving Father to be jackhammering ..............You could tell her that she would get used to the other tub  :).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 26, 2011, 08:53:54 PM
Well, the jackhammering went alright- about 2 hours worth of hard work and we had a trough in the concrete to fit the drain pipe in with the correct fall down to the p-trap.  Plumber son got everything lined up right and glued tight, and later that day, I came back, undid the drain screw, pulled the tub out and filled the hole we'd made with sand topped with tar.  Should keep the termites out as long as the soil doesn't get wet and the tar stays flexible and doesn't crack.  Soil under the house was soaked with termite repellent (?) before we poured the concrete so we should be fine- guarantee from the termite company on full repair/replacement...

Been off the forum for a while to catch up on work (again) and get a bunch of stack-out work done to get ready for drywall: not to jump the gun but the drywall is finally in!  Boo-rah, as "Vector" in "Despicable Me" says... you gotta have grandkids to follow that one.

First thing to happen was to have the insulation put in- should have done it myself but that would have taken a week maybe, and the crew came in and did it in a day...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/insulation_in_downstairs.jpg)

So, pictures below show the line-sets going through the exterior wall to where the outside unit for the LG mini-split HVAC system will be.  Other pictures show the four sets (2 insulated copper tubes each) going up the wall, over the kitchen ceiling and into the middle wall up to the locations for 3 of the 4 interior units.  Fourth unit will be directly above the outside unit in the loft over the kitchen, set to blow into the loft and cool or heat it as needed.  Putting in the line sets was a real PITA!  Hard to feed the 1" insulation-over-copper through 1 1/2" holes drilled in the walls- bending, feeding and pushing/pulling resulted in way too much insulation damage- spent an hour and half and a roll of duct tape sealing those up.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/line_sets_out_the_wall.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/line_sets_in_the_ceiling.jpg)


To complete the prep work for the HVAC units, also ran a 14/4 wire to each inside location along the same paths as the line sets.  Last, put in condensate drains, and that was a mess.  First ran 1/2" PEX that the manufacturer said would work, but son said no, so we ran 1 1/2" PVC pipe down the wall and over to the drain in the hot water closet (picture below).  For the unit in the loft over the kitchen, it was a straight shot down and out through the wall above the sill plate, so we left the 1/2" PEX in place to use as drain- hope it doesn't plug up with gradue...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/hot_water_closet.jpg)

Finally got the drywall hangers in after a screw up on delivery.  Seems the company that promised to deliver the drywall last Friday (110 pieces of white and 15 pieces of green, all 4X12) also promised their main driver/delivery man the day off... so Friday came and no driver.  They pushed a new guy into doing it with a somewhat experienced helper- neither had any idea how to run the boom with forklift attachment to get the pallets of drywall off the truck, turned vertical and positioned in front of the door to be taken off and hauled inside... so in the process of trial-and-error operator schooling, the driver almost took off part of my roof (I can yell pretty loud when I see so much work about to get damaged) and turned around on the next load and busted the corners off about 30 pieces.  At least they made it right- took the damaged ones back, got new ones and brought them back the same day.

Drywall hangers were set to come on Saturday, showed up at 7 when we were just finishing up some last-minute deadwood and plumbing work.  They decided to go finish another job and "be right back in an hour or so..." Right.  Evening rolled around and I called the boss who said they would be back Sunday morning at 7... hated to miss church but we're under a real tight schedule now.  Good news was that the extra day allowed me and plumber son to install two hose bibs to the outside and finish up the PEX, handle and two outlets into the downstairs bath tub.

Sunday morning the hangers are back and start complaining (a little) about how high the cathedral ceiling is, what with the 7/12 slope and all.... and I provided the scaffolding that at least made it doable.  Oh, well, I guess a little complaining on the hardest part of the job is understandable.  Once they had the hard stuff down, they started breezing through the rest, but it put them behind a fair amount (according to the boss anyway- ended up costing them another day's work and me an extra $200 but well worth it).  They got most of the upstairs done on Sunday, came back Monday at 7 and finished up by 3 or so... and that with two extra crew they pulled in at the last minute.  Lot of "cut up places" in the house, so I didn't mind the extra time and money.  Pictures below are a walk through of the interior now ready for the "mudders" to finish up so we can prime and paint.

First picture shows the stairs and wall next to it plus some of the upstairs.  Next are pictures of bedrooms upstairs, bath upstairs and the loft.  We added the loft (supposed to be cathedral ceiling all the way across the living room and kitchen- kitchen doesn't need it and we wanted the extra space) and it's going to be a great place for the two of them to set up their computers and work.  Last is downstairs in the master bedroom and the kitchen, which is big and airy, should be great.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/drywall_up_the_stairs.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/drywall_in_guest_BR.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/drywall_in_Rivers_BR.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/drywall_in_upstairs_bath.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/drywall_in_loft.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/drywall_master_BR.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3778/drywall_kitchen.jpg)

So, the mudders were supposed to show up Tuesday bright and early- no show.  Called this morning, turns out they got a much bigger job and decided to start that first and get it to the stage where it has to dry, then come do ours... Money talks, just like always, and the owner needs to pay his crew; he told me they were off last week three days and he needs to make paycheck this week.  Hand to mouth existence is tough; my son did it for years with his own plumbing company.  I'm just thankful he was able to find a steady job with one of the medical clinics in town- not as much in the way of paycheck sometimes (at least that's what he says), but he gets one every two weeks, knows how much it will be and gets medical benefits free... can't beat that with a stick!

Mudders are supposed to show up TH afternoon, and get the first stage done by the weekend.  Hopefully, with dry time, re-application and sanding, they should be done by Tuesday.  Painters are ready and anxious- daughter and some of her friends think they can knock that out in a day or two.  I'll spray the primer throughout and do the ceilings with standard ceiling white before they get started, though- should take me a day for masking windows and the beams, priming and doing the ceiling.  I always try to remember by graduate adviser's advise though:  make your guess of how long it will take, increase by one unit (hours to days, for example) and multiply by 2...

Lj

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Radar67 on October 26, 2011, 09:14:13 PM
LJ, the screws on the sheet rock job sure do look a little sparse. When I was hanging rock, we used double that amount to get it to pass inspection. 8 inch on center was what we had to do.

The house is looking good though.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on October 26, 2011, 09:22:38 PM
That much sheetrock gives me the shivers :).  And then paint, too.  Whew, I might not be able to sleep tonight  :-\.

I am repainting our outside metal doors.  Had to strip one down to bare metal.  Got all prepped and ready to paint and spray gun was broke.  Tried to use my HVLP that I got to apply varnish on furniture.  Primer was too thick and clogged up gun.  Would not work.  Doors are off and at the workshop.  No outside doors on house, house wide open.  Time is passing.  Run to town and buy new paint sprayer (15 mile one way).  Get home and no instructions in box with sprayer.  Decide to figure out gun without instructions.  Primer was very thick, too thick, gun was sputtery.  Got it as adjusted as I could.  All that adjusting hard on primer supply.  Ran out of primer.  Back to town to get more primer.  Time is passing as nightfall approaches with no outside doors on house.  New and different primer behaved and got the doors primed (finally!).  Primer had just enough time to dry so I could lug doors back to the house and put them on the hinges for the night.  No hardware, or door locks.  I have to be gone tomorrow.  Supposed to rain on Friday.  

Wife said we need to repaint the outside doors.  Why did I ever agree to do this?????
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 26, 2011, 09:48:38 PM
Good observation, Radar; these are the same people I used on my son's house, and the drywall there is solid as a rock- no movement at all.  They must know what they're doing (I hope)... ???  Anyway, we're done with that part for now, so we move on anyway.

WDH- you sound like you work like I do, with a little bit of progress occasionally more by accident than design.  You've got me worried now, so I'll break out my sprayer tomorrow to make sure it's still working and try running some paint through it maybe... or maybe not.  Still got to pour the slab for the outside HVAC unit (bought 8 bags of quickcrete and formed it up this afternoon), pressure test the water lines after I put in the cylinder for the downstairs bath, and work some on the railing for the porch... and then, if there's daylight left, cut down three or four of the lightning-dead trees that the bugs are attacking with great vigor.  Maybe I'll cut the white oaks into stair treads for the new house.  Won't have time to let them dry much, but hey, what's the worst that can happen?   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on October 27, 2011, 12:40:30 AM
Your sprayer is probably fine.  The problem with mine is that I could not get the top of the paint reservoir open.  The top (lid) was bound fast.  Using the handle that fits in your hand (the one with the trigger) as a stop and then try and use brute hand strength to open the lid failed miserable.  Anyway, in my attempts to do something as simple as get the lid off the paint reservoir, the sprayer broke just above the trigger.  Put the lid on too tight the last time that I used and cleaned it.  Stoopid.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on October 29, 2011, 06:24:21 AM
Well, things are looking up again.  Two days of no-show for drywall finishers, and finally on Friday they show up at 7 am.  Boss claimed he was up in the Delta with no cell reception, but he let slip that a bigger job had gotten his attention and they must have done that one first so they'd get paid on Friday.  Guess I can't blame him for taking care of business (at least the getting paid part), but daughter did- and she let him know, too.  Might make it hard to get back on his good side, but then again, he didn't keep his word.   >:(

So, last evening they finished up the first tape and corner install and got a layer of mud on everything- missed two screws but they'll get those next shot.  Maybe they'll work this weekend, maybe not.  Getting paid on Friday takes the incentive away for making up for lost days...  Well, if they make it back Monday and get it finished, we'll be able to move ahead: prime and paint, trim out on lights and plumbing hopefully done next week.  Appliances and cabinets coming in next week or two but I need to clean and seal the concrete first... if it ain't one thing, it's another (or two or three   :D  ).

Went to take pictures of the drywalls underway but they were so boring, didn't bother...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 03, 2011, 09:55:03 PM
Ok, this will be a mashup of various topics of recent interest to me as we meander along the path of getting the house finished...

First, an update on my metal-roof injury- in case you missed that, I sliced a tendon on my left hand ring finger.  Got it fixed and been in therapy for the last few months- making progress but that involves various exercises supposed to be done every hour but I'm lucky if I remember every couple of hours, usually when I look down and say to myself, "Wow, that guy sure messed up his finger, whoever he is..."   :D  Anyway, just to update on healing, first picture shows the incision (or where it was) with new skin sticking nicely now over the lump of stitched together tendon just under- hard to bend with it blocking the way.  Second shows the curve that appears to be permanent, at least I can't work it straight without lots and lots of painful stretching and then it just goes right back to bent...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/incision_healing.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/bent_but_fixed.jpg)

Now for drywall update: they finished the last coat of mud, sanded and put the skip-trowel finish on the ceilings.  Didn't think to tell them otherwise, but they even put it in the closets- waste of "pretty" in my mind... First picture shows the finished drywall next to and above the stairs, second of the loft with the "bent" not too badly splotched, and last, daughter's bedroom and closet.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/finished_drywall_stairs.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/finished_drywall_loft.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/finished_drywall_master_BR.jpg)

Now, sharp-eyed observers might notice what appears to be a window in the wall way above the stairs... and they'd be right.  Grandson and I brainstormed one day (dangerous with young minds) on ways to make the place unique... he came up with a ship's portal from his room looking down into the main living area.  Found one online, not exactly what we wanted but fairly cheap.   Located the window (or better maybe, his "view port") inside his closet so that light from below won't bother him.  Also, this let's him "spy" on the festivities down below, should he be banished to his room for letting out his mouth before engaging brake...

Ok, now for the really fun part- logging!  I mentioned way back that over the course of three thunderstorms in about that many weeks, we had four trees hit (three actually, one collateral damage).  The two pines couldn't wait till I got them down and invited the entire neighborhood of termites to come on over for a snack... that's what motivated the logging effort, actually: grandsons and I were out for a walk, and happened to notice a piece of loose bark- turns out it was ALL loose, and fell off with a little prodding and pulling to reveal thousands of white clean-up crew members that Mother Nature uses to make all that downed wood disappear.

First picture shows the bigger pine stump.  Managed to get four 8-10' logs out of the tree.  The smaller pine gave up three about the same length.  The big one was fairly old as shown by the rings in the stump...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/lightning_kill_stump.jpg)

The first tree killed was a pretty nice white oak, shown in the first picture laid down and ready to buck.  You can see bark was blown off all the way up the tree.  Second picture shows a branch with bark blown off also- probably 40' up when the tree was standing.  Oh, and that's my new Stihl that the "insurance" company bought me.  I work at a place that is self-insured, if you get my point... >:(

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/oak_bark_removal.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/New_Stihl_and_lightning_blown_branch.jpg)

Next is the red oak that was killed apparently by the lightning from the white oak not 6' away getting into its roots and frying them.  Bark on this tree was tight all the way up, and no sign of a lightning path anywhere on it.  Shame to take it down but all the leaves had turned at the same time as the white oak.  Got some nice logs from this feller, as shown by the mini-whack sitting next to my mill.  Interesting how things turn out: I've hauled logs from all over the farm but these four trees were only about 100 yards from the mill.  Probably took me five hours all told getting the trees down, bucked and skidded to the mill.  Still have branch clean-up to do, and lots of the bigger ones I cut into fire wood that needs to be hauled over and stacked, but all in all, a good day's work, even if caused by events outside of my control (which is most of life, it seems). 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/collateral_lightning_kill.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/lightning_kill_harvest.jpg)

Well, the fun's over now- just as I was tightening up the tension on the blade to make the first cut on one of the logs, the cell phone rings: drywall is done.  DanG!  Now I have to go back to house building, and the only sawdust I got to make was with a chainsaw.   :(  So today, after working all morning to finish up a report due today (last minute is always the right minute), pulled out my sprayer to get started on priming: right.   :D  First, I took the nozzle and lines apart to clean them out, put it all together and set the feed pipe into a bucket of water.  Turned on the pump, water starts leaking out everywhere- spent 15 minutes getting everything tightened up good, she's spraying just right but there's still just a few drops leaking out of the hose connection at the base of the nozzle.  I "remembered" this as being a screw on- wrong.  Turns out it was a pressure or squeeze fit, so when I tried to "tighten" it with my vice-grips, it twisted looser.  Now water sprays out more here than out of the spray nozzle.  No way to fix it myself, so tomorrow it's off to Lowe's for a repair piece (I'm hoping against my better judgement).

So then I move inside to do a little prep work.  Spent a few hours yesterday with masking tape and the real thin polyethylene they sell as drop clothes... got most of the windows sealed up, one bathtub and part of the "bent."  Managed to finish up most of what was left but then got side-tracked by all the dust and mud-chunks on the window sills.  Swept those off, then realized the floor was a mess- lots and lots of dust, and with a sprayer stirring things up near the floor at the wall bases, I'd have a real interesting "texture" on the prime and paint.  Decided to sweep up some... man, those guys make a lot of clean up necessary.  Spent three hours and only got the second floor and two small rooms downstairs done.  Oh, and realized by accident that the sanding dust from the final coat sticks pretty good to the un-primed walls.  Ended up sweeping the entire house- walls and floors- as I worked.  Tomorrow bright and early, it's off to Lowes to get the part I need plus finalize carpet purchase for the upstairs area- grandson convinced his mom that carpet would be better up there.  Oh, well, I'd have done wood but this is lots easier and faster for me.   :)

One way or another, tomorrow the whole insides gets primed.  As soon as that dries, either tomorrow or Saturday, it's white paint on the ceilings throughout.  Daughter says she wants to brush and roll on the walls, but she may realize how long that will take and let me spray most of the walls- I can get within 6" of the ceiling without overspray ruining the ceiling paint, so we could finish up painting pretty fast if we spray it all- we'll see.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on November 03, 2011, 10:16:43 PM
Thinking about having to do that much painting is scary.  I thought Halloween was over  :).  Good luck with that sprayer.  My sprayer problems continued, but that is another story. 

Give me wood  ::). 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on November 04, 2011, 08:12:40 AM
I used USG First Coat for my primer.  It's too heavy to spray out of anything but a heavy duty commercial paint sprayer.  Took way too long to roll it.

Norm clued me in to a paint shield and I sprayed the finish coats.  Didn't cut in anything.  Back rolling was all the fun I needed.  My paint sprayer is a Titan, middle of the range model.  I was really surprised on how well it came out.  I think a better job than I would have got using a roller and in a fourth of the time.

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 05, 2011, 11:11:22 AM
Well, WDH, I also don't rank painting as one of my top ways of spending time, but you do what you gotta do...  Bought a new hose and hooked it up to the old sprayer- one I bought from Lowes years ago and have used in several houses now- and it worked fine after some tuning.  Anyway, sprayed on 20 gallons of primer yesterday- Valspar drywall primer, and it worked great.  Just the right thickness to spray perfectly.  Primed the whole house, walls and ceilings (and some on the floor, unfortunately) in about 6 or 7 hours.  Went back this morning to do closets and ceilings.  Did the closets in a satin white exterior (part of a 5 gal I had left over) and it sprayed terribly.  Stuff wouldn't coat well and if I did a little too much, ran all over the place.  Did finally get a nice coat in some of the upstairs closet and the upstairs bathroom, and that was enough of that stuff.  Switched to Valspar flat ceiling paint , and that stuff sprayed perfectly- finished all the ceilings on both floors in a couple of hours. 

Then made the mistake of trying to spray on wall paint. Daughter had picked out a very light white or cream (she thought: colors are always many shades darker on the wall than in the store) and I sprayed that in the guest bedroom- I don't like the color at all, too brownish for my taste.  Plus I managed to overspray onto the ceiling near the window- too much light I guess.

Back at it...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on November 05, 2011, 11:14:42 AM
Looks more like a "house" now, instead of just a "building" with the new drywall up, doesn't it?
Bet you folks are getting excited, too, as it gets nearer to completion! Especially your daughter and her family.

That second pic of your finger with the permanent bend-it may not stay that way. Since they reattached the tendon halves, that may have made it a little bit shorter. In time as it grows back together completely, it may stretch out and go back to a more straight attitude.

Place looks great, LJ!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Piston on November 05, 2011, 11:49:40 AM
Really looking good LJ.  ;D

I bet your glad to have the drywall and paint behind you.  I think it was a smart move to hire out the insulation as well, I cringe every time I think of that dreaded stuff! 

Those are some nice looking logs you got bucked up as well.  You get a lot more work done than I do that's for sure  :D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 06, 2011, 09:19:24 AM
Yesterday was a whole lot of spraying...  ;)  Got the upstairs walls sprayed except the boy's room which will be a fairly dark blue.  The "neutral" brown went on ok- definitely nothing to write home about but at least it gets something on the walls so we can finish up.  They can always paint each room later if they want.  Used up 5 gal on the upstairs and had to buy another 5 gal for downstairs hall, wash and dryer room, HW heater room and bedroom/bath.  I'll not paint around and above the bathtube so we can put up a moisture barrier and tile later.

Got tired of painting in the afternoon and switched to hooking up outlets and switches- be nice to have inside as we've been running off of a single extension card plugged into a breaker in the outside meter base.  Lights would be nice too, but that'll have to wait now- got the rest of the paint for downstairs and I'll spray that after church.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on November 06, 2011, 05:54:35 PM
I a just "catching up" on catching up on you and your project Lon.  You have been busy and it shows very nicely.   smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 08, 2011, 06:25:50 AM
As I was finishing up spraying paint where I could, I was thinking about the watershed moments in building a house: getting interior wall coverings up is one.  Before then, the building process is very messy and small-step oriented, although you might think framing or roofing are big steps.  You can break each part of the process down into easy to think about and implement jobs- digging footings, putting in re-bar and remesh, pouring the slab or building the flooring, raising walls, putting in trussess- all of these happen in well defined sequences but in very messy ways.  No need to clean up too much for any of these, and in looking back on each process, I remember tools scattered around the site, materials piled here and there and lots of activity in and around all those piles.

When we were getting ready for the drywall to go in, though, it was a time to clear everything out of the way and do a final check of everything inside the walls- the wiring, plumbing, insulation and HVAC lines.  No second chance on these, so they had to be in right and complete.  In the process of doing this, we found lots of little things that had gone unnoticed: lights that hadn't been finish wired, pieces of plumbing not sealed tight (one piece of pex hidden inside insulation that hadn't been capped and squirted water like a fire hose- would have been a disaster if we found it after the drywall was up!   :o  ).  As we moved all the tools, pieces of scrap lumber, saw stand for the miter saw, pieces of OSB and plumbing/wiring supplies out of the inside of the house, other things became clear, things we still had to do before the drywall went up.  For a few days, it was a mad rush to get everything finished up and the interior empty and clean so the drywall installation could be done right.

When the hangers finally came to do the drywall, they found a half dozen things that we had missed- dead wood for drywall to screw into, places where we'd forgotten to put in bracing (behind the upstairs shower enclosure) and window trim that didn't come all the way to the edge of the framing.  Scrambled for a couple hours to fix these while they started cutting, nailing and screwing drywall up.  Surprisingly, it only took them about 12 hours over two days to do the entire house, and what a difference: now the walls were really walls, and the rooms took on dimensions that to human eyes were "real" in terms of how big or small they felt.

Going through the processes of drywall finishing (they did that but I found three boxes that had been covered and needed to be cut out- missed one also that we need to get opened up today), it was amazing how "finished" everything got to be, and how dusty and dirty the floor, walls and ceiling became.  After they left, it took two days to brush sanding dust off everything and sweep out the crud- still had dust on walls even after this, and it showed up in the paint when it was too late.  It's easy to rush this part, not clean everything completely and mess up the paint.

After clean up, spraying primer was fast and easy, although hard on the neck and back at the end of the day.  Spraying the final coats of paint was somewhat harder, but not bad as long as you kept a mask on.  Only thing I can't figure out is eye protection: spraying ceilings with primer and then flat white ceiling paint involves looking up continuously while overspray drifts down.  Sure, I tried to keep out from directly under where I was spraying, and this helped, but in corners and around the outside edges, it's hard to not get some in your eyes.  Can't think of any kind of eye coverage that wouldn't immediately fog up and get covered by drifting paint mist... oh, well, the sore, red eyes went away within a day.   ;)

Once I was done with the sprayer, getting the walls and ceilings mostly covered, I turned over edging and detail work to wife and daughter and I got to work on putting in switches and outlets so we'd have light while we worked: daylight savings time left on its high horse and now it gets dark sooner.  This plus shorter daylight time in general means lights inside are important.  One thing we did that I think wasted a fair amount of effort: the guys who wired for us installed all the switches and outlets to test the circuits.  This was important so we could find shorts and missed connections, but it also meant we had to go back and disconnect all of them so the drywall hangers could use plunge routers to cut out around the boxes.  Now I'm having trouble figuring out some of the wiring that was done.  One set of switches (four in one box) were gang-wired (I finally figured out) with power linked from switch to switch and the other pole tied to the light or fan it controlled.  Only way I got it right was that the guy helping "unconnect" everything had left three of the four switches linked together with the tie-wires.  Other problem has been the two sets of three-way switches, or rather, switches that are at each end but controlling the same light.  On the stairs, there's a switch at the bottom and another at the top so you can turn on the lights over the stairs from either location.  Fortunately, the wires were bent inside the boxes in such a way that I could guess at where they went on the double pole switches- got it right the first time.  Not so lucky with the one in the master bedroom, and I'm going to have to try various combinations till I get it right- at least the breakers allow immediate feedback on when they're not hooked up right.   :D

Yesterday was a busy shopping day- went to Lowes with wife and daughter as they don't care for my choices in color and pattern: took an hour to pick out the vinyl for the bathroom upstairs, the wash-and-dry room, and a few of the closets but forgot the adhesive (need to go back for that).  Next picked out railings for the loft and stairs- daughter wants a wrought iron look so we found some "artistically bent" exterior uprights to use that I'll have to cut and fashion rails for to screw them to on top and bottom.  Will also need to cut the floor piece to go on the edge of the loft that the railing there will sit over- need that before the carpet can be installed next week....   :o  Good news is I get to saw some logs; bad news is I have to hurry, which I hate doing when it's to make lumber for "pretty" stuff like railings that your hand touches every day.

Now a problem raises it's mean, ugly head: we need the HVAC on to adjust the humidity and temperature inside the house so I can install the solid wood flooring, but the guys who know how to do that aren't available for a week or so.  Problem is: flooring has to go down this week so I can get cabinets in and carpet installed.  This seems to be a major problem in building any house: sequencing the individual steps so they get done in the right order at the right time.  If I was building a house for myself or a spec house, I wouldn't care- I have lots of things to do while waiting for someone else to finish their part.  With this house, we've already missed two deadlines (that I didn't set but allowed to happen to keep everyone sane) and now time is more important than anything: lots of detail work will get put off till after they get moved in: floor trim and caulk, touch-up painting, a few other small things.  Mostly, though, everything has to be done and done NOW to get the house livable, so today I scramble to get materials and figure out how to hook up the mini-splits with my plumber son's help (when I can drag him away from his family at night- got to admit, the grandkids are a lot more fun to play with than working on this house  ;D  or just about anything else I can think of).  Daughter's friend (boyfriend? maybe) was going to help- he's done some before at Shelby, but he took off deer hunting in Illinois: got a doe already but hoping for a buck before he drives back with his buddies.  Looking forward to venison but really need him here right now.   :(

Ok, so deadline that was September slipped to Halloween and is now set at Thanksgiving... at least the weather is holding up: cool, dry and sunny most days.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Piston on November 08, 2011, 07:42:46 AM
Lj,
As much as your feeling rushed and in a time constraint I give you a lot of credit and respect for still finding time to update your thread.  You sound like a really hard and detail oriented worker  ;D

I can't imagine the sense of accomplishment you must feel when you sit back at the end of the day with your beverage of choice, reflect on the hard day's work you've done on your daughter's house, while watching your grandkids play!  That must be a great feeling!

Your kids/grandkids must be very proud to have you as a dad/grandpa  8)




Your doing a great job! 

smiley_clapping
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 08, 2011, 08:02:37 AM
Wow, Piston, thanks- thoughts are much appreciated.  And you're right, the sense of accomplishment is a tremendous feeling.  Wife and I went for a walk just at dusk last night, ended up at the new house and she commented on what a beautiful place it's turned into.  It's strange, though, that the things that make a house solid and durable, strong and able to withstand the vagaries of weather, are not even visible.  What we take as the "house beautiful" is actually just the outside stuff- oh, it all helps with keeping out the wind, cold, rain and bugs, but it's mainly just for looks.

Well, off to get vinyl adhesive, switch and outlet covers and a bath enclosure...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on November 08, 2011, 08:03:19 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on November 08, 2011, 06:25:50 AM
Ok, so deadline that was September slipped to Halloween and is now set at Thanksgiving... at least the weather is holding up: cool, dry and sunny most days.Lj

At least you have a deadline.  It looks like my "Cabin Addition" deadline has "fallen and can't get up".   :-\
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on November 08, 2011, 08:44:35 AM
LJ,

Here another drop in the bucket but something that came from your thread which I will appreciate for many years.

Impact drivers for screws..........  Because of your mentioning/recommendation I bought one. Simply put wow! Now when I reach for mine I think of you. Thanks!!!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Bill Gaiche on November 08, 2011, 05:39:10 PM
Has been a good thread. Raider Bill, I read the same thing and went out and bought one at Sears. I use it all the time cause it works well. bg
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 12, 2011, 06:09:20 AM
Glad it helped, guys- yeah, my impact drivers work so well they walk away from the jobsite looking for work.  My son has been helping build a new clinic for the company he works for, and they've been hanging drywall and doing lots of component assembly with screws.  He'd tried my 12 v Dewalt impact driver- not as powerful as the 18 v but plenty good for drywall screws and it holds a charge and re-charges great plus it comes with a belt hook so you can just hang it between screws.  So it's in his tool box for a while... :D

Worked part of the day and got the last of the electrical outlets and switches hooked up.  Daughter has some trim painting to finish and I've got some way up in the cathedral ceiling to do.  Plus, managed to cut and glue down vinyl in one closet, the washer-dryer room and the upstairs bathroom.  Got to do the downstairs bath today and we'll be almost ready for plumbing trim out, at least in those parts of the house.  Still waiting deliver of kitchen cabinets but need to get the wood floor down first but need to get the house humidity and temperature stabilized.  With the crazy weather last week or so, hot and humid one day, cold and dry the next, the wood flooring would be a mess.

So I'm still waiting to get the HVAC mini-splits hooked up so we can condition the interior for wood floor install- son has been too busy and tired at the end of the day and my other helper went deer hunting in Illinois- venison over work? Go figure.  ;)  Anyway, he got a doe, bow season, and came back last night which made daughter happy for a number of reasons, all good.  We managed to get some work done, made another run to Lowes and had a great dinner with the family, but no venison here yet.

Today should be a great day- plan is to have son and daughter's friend (boyfriend?  we're all waiting to see how that turns out but hoping for the best) finish hanging mini-split units, set the compressor outside, cut and flare the copper lines, vacuum dry them and then fire it up before the end of the day.  Need to go find the right 220 outlet for the drier so we can finish installing that- got the washer in yesterday, and once the drier's in, just have window trim and door to set and that room will be done.

Getting to the point where we're starting to see rooms approaching the 'finished for now' state so they can get moved in.  Plan is still to have them in by Thanksgiving, but getting tighter and tighter.  Main targets are wood flooring installed, cabinets in the kitchen, vanities in the baths, plumbing trim out to hook all the fixtures up and make the toilets work, paint and install the interior doors, do baseboards throughout, install wood burning stove... and a few odds and ends.  With 12 days till Thanksgiving, we're going to need all the family help and focus we can get, plus good weather for at least the next week.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on November 12, 2011, 08:47:23 AM
You are becoming my hero Lj.   :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on November 12, 2011, 06:03:16 PM
Mine, too! 8)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 12, 2011, 09:06:09 PM
Thanks for the sentiments, guys, but what really matters is that I'm still something of a hero to the grandkids... makes it all worthwhile.

Well, the guy who was supposed to finish up the HVAC mini-splits didn't show up on Tu, didn't show on Wed, didn't make it on Th and Fr didn't even answer the phone.  He's usually pretty reliable so all I can figure is there was too much on his plate and he just didn't know how to say "no, can't help you right now."  Turned out alright in the end- the deer hunter returned last night, son the plumber was free today so between the two of them, they mounted all four interior units of the mini-splits and got the line sets all connected to the outside unit.  Got to be dark before they finished up the wiring and did the vacuum test before starting it up- hopefully tomorrow, and that would mean we'd start conditioning the house tomorrow afternoon/evening.   8) 8) 8)

While they were doing the HVAC, I installed light fixtures in the downstairs bath, the master bedroom, and a couple other places.  Also made headway on trim for window sills and baseboards.  Finished up trim painting in the cathedral ceiling as well- daughter (who fell off a 10' ladder and fractured her shoulder a while back) had a justifiable level of discomfort on the scaffolding.  She wants to do all the ceiling-wall cut-ins herself as she thinks I don't do a fine enough job.  Fair enough except when it gets too high and out of her comfort level...  :o

Oh, and we finished up installing the washer and dryer, cutting the hole for the outside dryer vent and getting all the right plugs and sockets for 220 to the dryer, water split to washer and dryer,  and what did I say?  Yeah, the dryer has a water inlet- not sure why, and seems very strange, but I think it has something to do with a steaming process to get wrinkles out of natural fiber clothes, like wool?  She's a piper and her "formal" clothes (kilt and all) are woolen, so she says it should be fantastic for those.

Been so busy "doing" that I forgot to get pictures.  I'll get some tomorrow- some rooms are looking almost finished now, and should be very soon, although we still have a monster of a wood floor installation facing us.  Item for discussion: which way to lay the flooring?  I say parallel to the north wall, which allows it to run lengthwise down the hallway and parallel to the stairs at the landing at the bottom and into the master bedroom.  Daughter is thinking that having it turned 90 degrees and parallel to the longer dimension of the kitchen-living room area is better, but this makes the hallway flooring perpendicular to the direction of the hall and puts the flooring at the bottom of the stairs perpendicular to the stair treads- seems out of kilter to me.  Any thoughts on this?

Been going since 6 this morning and worked straight through till dark with a short break for lunch... dead tired tonight and need to recuperate for tomorrow's major efforts.... Things are moving fast now, much to my daughter's delight, but it does take a toll.   ;)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Satamax on November 12, 2011, 11:20:44 PM
LJ, i've always heard run wood flooring parallel to the main source of light. So one end at the biggest window. This has to do with refraction on wood fibers being more even that way.

But i think coridors need to have lenghwise run. Otherwise, it's too much of a pain to fit.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: PC-Urban-Sawyer on November 13, 2011, 08:46:45 AM
I think you need to make the flooring run lengthwise to the space, especially in longer hallways since that minimizes the amount of wood expansion and contraction that will occur. For instance, let's say that each 3" wide piece of flooring will change width an average of only 1/64th of an inch. Hallway is 3' x 12', the flooring would change a total of 12/64th or 3/16ths of an inch if the flooring is running the long way and a total of 48/64 or 3/4 of an inch if running across the width of the hallway. Besides, it just looks better when the planks are parallel to the longest dimension of the space.

Herb
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 19, 2011, 09:48:27 PM
Thanks for the input on the flooring orientation- went ahead and lined the boards up parallel to the hallway.  Like others have said- too much cutting and fitting to do it the other way.

Been a very busy week with mostly 10-12 hour days trying to get things done.  Burned out yesterday and daughter had duties that required her attention so I took the day off- gathered firewood that I'd sawed when the power line went in (lots of downed hardwoods from that) plus fresher pieces from the lightning killed oaks.  Got cold enough for a couple of nights that we had the fireplace insert going to keep the house warm- I love falling asleep in front of the fire... :D  Also did some bush hogging just to drive a tractor for a while.  Was going to cut up the mini-whack of logs by the mill but couldn't decide what to make for lumber- need some for a small barn for future cattle and equipment storage plus siding for the various barns that need it plus I'd like to make something special from the two oaks that were cut down in their prime by an "act of God," as they say... Since I couldn't make up my mind, I just did other stuff while I wait to see what I want the lumber for.   ???

So here are pictures of the HVAC units installed, and the good news: they work on heat and cool just like they're supposed to.  Plumber son and electrician friend got it right, right out of the box (literally).  First is the outside condenser/heat pump being final tested for vacuum.  These units come pre-charged with freon so once you have the lines dried out and under vacuum, you just open the valves and the lines and interior units fill up to just about the right pressure.  Correct pressure depends on number of units and length of the line sets- we were lucky as the pressure it stabilized to was exactly what was called for... I love it when a plan comes together!

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/outside_HVAC_unit.jpg)

Next is the cathedral ceiling mini-split unit next to River's portal on the world (at least the world inside the house), and yes, that's River peeking out ready to get moved in- couple more weeks, boy, and it'll all be yours. :)  Second is the unit in the loft area; no pictures of the units in the boy's room upstairs or the master bedroom.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/River_and_LR_minisplit.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/loft_minisplit_installed.jpg)

The sprayer that I used to prime and paint (most of) the walls really paid off- couple of days work including trimming the ceiling-wall junctions by hand and things look pretty good.  First is the hallway and second is the stairway and upper hallway.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/hallway.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/primed_stairway.jpg)

Oh, and the washer and dryer are all hooked up and functional.  In fact, daughter has been using them last couple of days because she just wanted to...  :D  Did I mention she's anxious to get moved in?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/washer_dryer_installed.jpg)

I think I did mention we were about to install flooring... so the first picture below shows the hallway viewing into the kitchen, second shows kitchen floor done except for trim where cabinets aren't located.  Turned out pretty nice except for the occasional spots of glue that we haven't figured out how to get up.  I was concerned about installing solid wood flooring directly over concrete even though I did put a vapor barrier under the slab to inhibit moisture coming up.  Lowe's has a new (to me anyway) product that is a combined moisture membrane and adhesive especially for doing just that- pricey and very, very hard to work with.  Seems to be a mix of taffy-like glue with small rubber particles embedded in it.  You spread it with a big-toothed trowel that leaves a fair amount of material under the wood: a 5 gal can covers about 100 sq ft or so, but if it works and the wood doesn't bow up, it'll be worth it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/hallway_floor_in.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/3792/kitchen_trimout_underway.jpg)

Just before we started laying flooring, the Lowes delivery truck shows up.  We'd already put them off three times so had to take the appliances and cabinets.  Put them in the living room while we laid the kitchen floor, then installed the base units, the frig and the range.  Still have to hook up the dishwasher and water line for the ice maker, but at least the kitchen is beginning to look more like a functional kitchen...

Tomorrow we're supposed to do whatever plumbing trim out we can at this stage- upstair's toilet works anyway, so we can at least stay on the job and not have to travel back to the main house for nature calls.   :o

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on November 20, 2011, 05:31:19 PM
It's beginning to really look "housey".   :)   Don't look that word up.  It ain't there.   :D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 25, 2011, 06:03:53 AM
Thanks for the new word, MM- English is always an evolving language and my family takes great delight in "evolving" our own local dialect...  :D

Well, good news on all fronts.  After we got the majority of the kitchen cabinets set, we were able to accurately measure for counter tops.  I've found over the years that no matter how carefully you build and plan, the actual measurements can be off by enough to make the counter tops not quite fit- out of square corners seems to be the biggest problem, caused by drywall finishers putting too much mudd in the corner.  Well, I thought we had a great crew on this job, and everything does look smooth and clean everywhere else, but guess what: corner out of square just enough to make gaps in the ends of the counters away from the corners.  Oh, well- that's what caulk and paint are for.

So last week, we measure everything exactly with all appliances and cabinets in place including a 9" base cabinet that will stand next to the dishwasher to block the end and for which there is no stud behind to screw anchor to...  >:(  Rushed to Lowes to order forgetting that this week is, duh, Thanksgiving!  Employee there worked with us, rushed the order in asking for rush delivery, something that never happens!  Thanksgiving weekend is ideal for finish work, time free to spend all day on it and help from son and daughter's boyfriend (yes, they are getting serious, at least if you measure that by how much time he's putting in helping out).  Unexpectedly, got a call on Wednesday: counter tops are in!  Rush to the store at 4 just after the delivery truck pulls away. load up the tops and 5 interior doors, head for home and unload to get them out of the night dew that is so heavy this time of year. Thursday morning (yesterday), while wife was cooking all the other stuff following our Thanksgiving ritual of preparing and stuffing the turkey together at 6 am, we tackled the counter tops.  Lo and behold!  They didn't quite follow instructions: end next to the range was supposed to be flat on the bottom so it wouldn't have to "cup" over the counter next to the stove- plus they mis-cut by half an inch, which is strange.  Had to plunge saw the support powder board half an inch, and chisel out the remains so the end of the counter would drop onto the cabinets.  Left a gap next to the range, which I hate but had no other way to fix right now. Turns out the cabinets under the counter top were mis-cut as well: drawer fronts were too high by 1/8" so they rubbed the bottom of the counter top edge... dang, but there must have been a lot of novices in training at the shops making these things.

Good news is, after a lot of drawer top planing and crawling back into places in the base cabinets that I don't fit in real well, got everything screwed together nice and tight.  Put a cord on the dishwasher (doesn't anything come with cords and hoses anymore?) and Now the kitchen is ready for plumbing trim out.

Then we went to mount the micro-wave/vent unit over the range: what a PITA!@  Turns out the Chinese don't like to waste good metal on Americans, so things got real hairy when we held it up to mount the first time: pushed an anchor screw down through the cabinet above to hold the unit up, and pushed the nut holder right into the microwave.  So then we pull it down, unscrew about a dozen screws, and lightly twist the cover metal up enough to locate the nut/holder: now the dang thing won't go back together since it's so flimsy that it bent and bowed.  Spent 10 minutes unbending, trying to squeeze it back together, till we finally got it all assembled again: held it up, set the anchor screw on that side, tried to put the anchor screw in the other side, and you guessed it: pushed the nut holder down into the micro-wave on that side.  Unscrew it, lower it down, take the panel off that side, locate the nut and holder, re-mount those, fit it all back together, and try again.  Yeah, and then we (I) pushed a little too hard and did the same thing again....  >:( >:( >:(  Finally got it all right and mounted, but it took over 90 minutes to do what should have been a ten minute job.  I'm not isolationist, but I do think we gave up the farm letting the Chinese sell us junk and finance our debt... just saying.

The other piece of the puzzle that fell into place is the upstairs: finished up painting and prep-work for the carpet install on Monday/Tuesday and lined up the installers for Wednesday morning.  Had to start on the stairs before I was ready to get the landing at the top set in place to bump the carpet up to... also had to do the base trim under where the loft railing will be for the same reason: cut, stained, sealed with two coats of floor finish, glued and screwed in place Tuesday evening.  Installers came Wednesday and carpet was in throughout the upstairs by noon: what a difference a finished floor makes!  Wow, the bedrooms, bath (vinyl there) and loft-work area looked almost done.

Yesterday, after getting the cabinets in, continued on trim work I'd started on Tuesday: I'd painted bundles of ready-primed baseboard and had that ready to go, plus daughter was hard at it painting doors outside.  Managed to trim out most of the upstairs and set two doors: now it's really looking housey!  Daughter's boyfriend worked on lights and ceiling fan in the living room, standing up on the second tier of movable scaffolding and reaching up at his height limit for several hours (bet he's sore today   :D  ): he and daughter are almost the same height, and that ain't tall!  ;)

Spent a couple hours getting bathroom sink basins ready cut to fit against the walls where the rough plumbing sticks out so son can finish trim out today.  Looks like it will be a great day, this Black Friday (I hate that name: shows how crassly commercial we Americans have become): plumbing trim out to finish, last of the lights to go up, doors to paint and hang, last of the master bath trim out to finish, and trim around the post and beam unit holding up the loft floor to complete.  Goal is to get all the little stuff done, clean out all the mess that's accumulated again (no matter how "clean" I try to keep things, tools, waste and stuff-about-to-be-used piles up   ???) and start flooring again on Saturday.  Need to finish sawing out the stones that will go under the wood burning stove so we can set those as we go with the hardwood flooring tomorrow: need to get the flooring out to there so we can set the stove, hang the chimney and take down the scaffolding: what a milestone that will be!

We're in the home stretch now, and the finish line is in sight: missed our deadline of Thanksgiving but not by much (of course, that's not counting our deadlines of August 15 and Halloween   ;D  ).  Plan is to let them start moving in by Monday since I'll be gone on work related travel from Tuesday for a week or so...   It's amazing how motivated you get when you see a major project like this coming into the final stages.  We're not rushing work, but we're on it steady and hard anytime we have available not eating turkey and playing with grandkids and grandbabies, required duties such as they are.   8)

I'll get pictures today... good weather is holding just long enough, pray it makes it through Monday.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Bill Gaiche on November 25, 2011, 11:08:49 AM
LJ, looks like your real close to having a crispin chicken open house. bg
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on November 25, 2011, 01:25:46 PM
Well, Bill, I'm not as talented as MagicMan in the cooking arena, but I can get my son to BBQ up a mess of burgers or ribs, plus my wife is an excellent cook- she makes a mean gumbo...  :)  We'll definitely have an open house and maybe a Southern Chapter meeting for winter or spring update-- stay tuned.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on November 27, 2011, 09:23:28 AM
My "date" is open.   ;)   Whatever it is.   ;D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on December 09, 2011, 10:06:38 AM
Well, made it back from the cold, rainy north and northeast.  Spent more than a week in Chicago and New York doing work- not fun places for me personally but when duty calls...  :(

Time for another major fess-up.  I've installed four sets of counter tops over the last few years, and I just found out I've been doing it wrong.  Or at least, I haven't been doing it exactly right.  Seems the problem I mentioned on drawers not opening was entirely due to me not putting wood slates or sheets on top of the cabinets- this was very kindly pointed out to me in a PM from a forum member who (I guess) didn't want to embarrass me in front of everybody- thanks for that!  I should point out, just for information, that I'm of a certain age where being embarrassed is far from any consideration for me anymore- I do too many things that some people might be embarrassed by to be embarrassed by them anymore since I'd end up being embarrassed too much of the time... did that make sense?   ???  So just for anyone thinking about doing counter tops themselves- make sure you find out how to do it right, which I now know means putting a layer of wood spacing between the cabinets and the counter top.  This actually makes perfect sense- it allows you to screw up from the anchors located in the corners of the cabinets into the wood lathes by working from on top.  I was screwing up from inside the cabinets, and I can tell you one thing for sure: I don't fit real well in there.  Second, it then is real easy to screw or glue the top onto the slats- much easier to reach then the corner anchors.  Third, of course, it provides the spacing needed so your drawers and doors open, which is a pretty serious concern if you actually want to use them.

Anyway, been back in town for a day, and we finished laying flooring: wahoo!  What a mess the adhesive is- gets on everything since it's so good at being gluey (new word, maybe?) and is almost impossible to get off once it dries.  You can wipe it off if you catch it right away but there are still those spots that end up getting missed, and of course, it's supposed to stick to things, right?  Like skin?  Only answer that seems to work well is to wait three days and it eventually falls off. Sure, paint thinner will take it off if you use it immediately, but if it dries and sets at all, it's not coming off. I'll get a picture of the container in case anyone is interested in using it- main specifically for putting hardwood flooring down onto concrete directly, acts as both a moisture membrane and glue.

I have a bunch of pictures to upload and can't.  Something wrong with the new version of the uploader.  I think there's a button to use the old version which I'll try shortly, but it may have to wait till this evening- we're going to finish up trimming out the master bedroom so Jessie can move her bed and stuff in for real.  They've gotten anxious and while I was gone, moved stuff in upstairs (which was mostly done) and lots into the kitchen and bath downstairs plus a sectional in the living area.  The wood burning stove works great, maybe too well actually, and the house is functional enough for them to "rough it" till we finish up.  So today is trim work and stairs, then we'll do all the punch list stuff.  Oops, no stairs today- forgot the rest of the doors plush thresholds plus patching flooring next to where the door trim sets...

If building a house is like running a marathon, then we're in the last mile.  Never run one myself (marathon, but have built a few houses and if I build a few more, I might begin to think I can actually do it right), but I would guess the emotions are about the same: exhaustion, desire to get it done and satisfaction at having come this far.  If we can just maintain focus for that last mile, we can have it fully done by Christmas, maybe in time for an engagement party.   ;)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on December 09, 2011, 08:33:50 PM
You have been scarce.  I was wondering if you had gone AWOL.  Wait, that would be AWFH instead (Absent Without Finishing House)  :).
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on December 10, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
Picture test: ok, with Jeff's instructions in the video, I was able to get the new uploader to work and now have pictures to show progress.  First is an update on the kitchen- this was the first floor we laid and it was a real learning experience!   :o  To save time (but not money) we went with a new adhesive from Bostick that also serves as a moisture barrier when putting wood directly onto concrete.  I'd put a layer of polyethylene under the slab to help prevent moisture from getting to the concrete but given it's porous nature and all the water that sits in our version of red clay here in the South, my hopes are high that this stuff will prevent the dreaded buckling caused by moisture... so far so good.  You can also see the door is up on the pantry.  Still have to do trim work under the cabinets and baseboard/quarter round along the walls, but almost done now.   :)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/kitchen_full_view.jpg)

Here's the master bath, and the picture doesn't show how big it really is- not huge, but lots of space.  We opted for vinyl on the floor for cost and speed of installation, and I leaned a valuable lesson here: get help for big pieces.   >:(  Tried to lay the whole thing by myself, and it was really too big to peel back half, put down adhesive, lay that part and repeat on the other half.  Ended up not getting glue in two spots right near the tub- bubbles!  Got to figure out how to deflate them, and thought maybe the syringe glue might do it- comes in a plastic syringe with a needle on the end, so I'm hoping I can insert it through and around the bubbles (about 6 inches across) and get them down onto the concrete.  Live and learn, and I guess the "living" part means trying stuff to find out how to do it right.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/bathroom_almost_done.jpg)

We opted for carpet for the upstairs, mainly because the boy wanted it- no accounting for taste.  Anyway, here's a picture of his room just before I trimmed it (done) and he moved in his bookcase, books, bed and some other stuff.  Been sleeping there now for almost a week and is adjusting well- it's always hard to get used to a new place to sleep.  ;)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/Rivers_room_with_carpet.jpg)

We spent a marathon (that word again   :D ) day laying the floor in the living room: almost 8 hours with three of us going elbows and knees and got it down without a hitch.  At least, not if you don't count all the glue stuck to clothes and skin.   8)  Cut some of the sandstone I'd bought for the house we live in- got a semi-load about 15 years ago and still finding uses for the leftovers.  Used a diamond blade on a circular saw, and despite the dust, it went well.  You can see the slabs under the stove- just didn't want it sitting on wood.  You might think the wood burning stove is too close to the wall, but it meets manufacturer's requirements.  There's a blower unit on the back and with that, heat doesn't radiate back toward the wall.  We're still thinking of putting something back there that's fireproof, though, but there's time for that later.  Floor looks pretty good, too.   8)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/floor_near_stove.jpg)

Picture below is a different view of the living room space.  There'll be a bookcase to the left of the window, and the couch/sectional may get relocated- plenty of room for stuff, including the piano that still has to make it's way from our house to the space next to the stairs, but gotta do the baseboard trim first and that has to wait till the bedroom is finished.  Got three doors mounted yesterday, trimmed out the closet, and the made the mandatory trip to Lowe's to pick up supplies- different quarter round to match the baseboard we'd bought, closet shelving, casement for the hall door into the kitchen... stuff.  Luckily we had one can of floor adhesive left over upopened and that paid for everything on this trip.  Of course, today's another day and another trip looms: somehow miscounted doors and forgot the one for the hot water heater closet plus they'll be something else come up that we need- there always is...  ::)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/living_room_view.jpg)

Should be able to finish the bedroom today and get started on the stair treads.  Need to get those done for safety and functionality- also to keep the cat from getting hung up.  He got moved in a couple days ago and is still adjusting; strictly a house cat, and he owns the universe, of course, just like all cats.  We were working yesterday and we hear this weird scrabbling noise, like something is stuck against drywall.  Turns out it was something stuck against drywall: he'd squeezed under the rough treads that are on the risers, worked his way up between those and the drywall ceiling of the closet under the stairs and was scrambling around in there- dopey cat   :D

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on December 10, 2011, 09:10:53 AM
Wow Lj, it's good to have you back and to see all of the progress that you guys have made.  I now see the end in your future.  Yes, you have run a marathon.   ;D   :D
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on December 12, 2011, 05:34:06 AM
Thanks, MagicMan- just glad you didn't say "end of your future;" that would have been pretty final.   :D

We finished up trim in the master bedroom and daughter is busy moving furniture and clothes in and putting those away.  She slept in her own bed now for two nights, so the room is "real" in terms of functionality.  Today we do more odds and ends, but focus mainly on steps- cutting treads to length, staining and clear coating.  Bought a polyurethane clear coat that's water based- a latex version that doesn't actually put much on with each coat.  Guess that's the price you pay for easy clean up, but not only does it cost more than oil based but because it doesn't cover as well, the manufacturer makes more per gallon: less actual poly in each container.  Oh, well, that's the way the free market works.   ;)

Got a list a mile long of this and that stuff to do: logs and branches to saw up for firewood, extra flooring to move out of our house into storage till we decide where to put it, clean up outside the new house and tool sorting- need to start hauling tools I won't use anymore over there back to the barn, which means cleaning up the barn to put up more shelves for the tools coming home to roost.  The fun never ends!  :D  Plus I have to figure out Christmas presents for some of the family- we draw names for a major exchange among the us and the kids, but the grandkids and Nana are still required from all...

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Piston on December 16, 2011, 06:34:14 AM
LJ,
I just caught up with your progress again, looks great!

As for Christmas shopping, I'd say you have the daughter's gift pretty well nailed down for this year....  ;D

Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on December 16, 2011, 07:55:23 PM
I agree with Piston!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on December 18, 2011, 07:25:02 AM
Sorry, didn't mean to mislead anyone- yes, her "present" is taken care of but we do an exchange each year with a drawing at Thanksgiving.  I got the daughter-in-law but the wife has already bought that gift- she loves to shop and I let her.  Probably wouldn't have found anything she wanted at Lowes anyway   :D  and there and Autozone are the only two places I spend money anymore (except online for shells).

So, here's my almost-done update: we stained and put finish on stair treads yesterday and now they're ready to be glued and nailed down.  Bought a big box of cut nails I used on my son's stairs- they turned out neat with the heads showing against the bright yellow pine.  Daughter's stairs are stained dark walnut so the heads my not sure as well, but at least they'll be down solid.  After the stairs are down, just some odds and ends of trim work to finish, a little outside trim work plus a final clear-coat on the siding, the loft and stairs railing (cut four 11/2X3" oak boards for those out of lightning killed red oak) and we'll be done- probably get her finished this week but definitely by Christmas.  Of course, we have to be done by Christmas as we always have Christmas eve present opening at her place, and this will be the first year at the new house.

Yesterday, while stain and finish was drying on the treads we started the clean up process.  Packed tools and left over supplies onto the truck and hauled stuff over to the big barn for storage till next building project.  Seems strange to pick up saws and nail guns, knowing they are no longer needed on this house- a sense of finality that has an element of sadness about it: I love the whole process of building, and the final product is just icing on the cake.  Daughter has been focused on being done and moved in, which is as it should be, but that perspective is different than mine.  Oh, well, there's always a barn and workshop in the plans, so I'll focus on those next, plus wife has been talking about an addition on the son's house- their four kids are growing fast and will need separate bedrooms in the not-so-distant future...  :)  Without goals and plans, life would seem somewhat pointless.   ::)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on January 04, 2012, 07:08:01 AM
Quick update and today I get pictures- house was finished enough for daughter and grandson to move in just before Christmas eve.  We celebrated there that night with the wood burning stove going and gift opening plus an excellent potluck dinner (this is our Christmas eve tradition and it was important for them to have it at the new place this year for lots of reasons, mostly personal ones).

Since then, we've finished the floor trim so that's done; got the railing tops on the stair and loft rails; and did a few more detail things like caulking.  Today we plan to finish the railing inside and hopefully the railing on the front porch (facing south where the sun is visible from dawn till dusk over the field down the hill).  After that, a little touch up paint here and there (no matter how careful you are, something always gets nicked or stained) and we'll switch back to the outside: driveway to smooth and re-pack and put a layer of gravel on plus a small shed over the outside unit for the minisplits to protect it from the elements.

It's incredible to be at the end of such a long and back-breaking (well, not really) chain of construction tasks, and the satisfaction in having done a reasonably good job is enormous.  Turns out we built this house at just the right time to provide my daughter and her son with a secure, paid-for place to live for as long as they need.  For various reasons, they would have been left "out in the cold" otherwise, and now they have a place to be that is functional and fun: what more can we ask?   :)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: WDH on January 04, 2012, 08:03:25 AM
LJ,

I am as proud of you as you are of this outcome! 
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on January 04, 2012, 08:06:42 AM
Congratulations!
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: beenthere on January 04, 2012, 10:16:37 AM
Good on you Lj. That is a huge accomplishment, to say the least.
And many thanks for the pics and detailed rolling commentary. 
What a great father for a daughter and grandson to have.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Larry on January 04, 2012, 12:49:58 PM
bt couldn't have said it better.  Great job lj. 8) 8) 8)

BTW, if you have any extra time I could use a hand to finish up my house.  Year four or so and counting. :-[ :-[
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Bill Gaiche on January 04, 2012, 08:38:19 PM
Thanks for all that you have put into building this house, photos and details. You have done an awsume job. What you have done will never be forgotten by your daughter and grandbaby. You should be really proud for what you have provided. bg
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: schakey on January 05, 2012, 04:46:02 AM
Great job lj.  smiley_clapping I agree with beenthere.
Taking care of family is what it is all about.
Thank you for taking the time for your post and
pictures.I watch this post every day and we can't
wait to start our home from our own trees on top
of our hill 8)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on January 05, 2012, 08:49:20 AM
Thanks for all the comments: it's incredible how supportive the forum is of its members.  I want to thank Jeff (again) for keeping the site up and keeping it clean and friendly.  This forum is one of the best things that I've found to find information, develop new skills and make new friends: long live the Forestry Forum!   8)

Ok, so here are some pictures of the finished product.  Problem is, daughter and grandson are already moved in and I didn't give them time to clean up for the pictures, so these are real "lived in" versions of what the place looks like.  First picture below is of the kitchen area and the second of the living room that merges with the kitchen under the loft and into the cathedral ceiling.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/kitchen.jpg)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/living_room_west.jpg)

Next are the master bath and bedroom- I warned you, these are lived in rooms now.   :D



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/master_bath.jpg) 



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/master_BR.jpg)

Now a view up the stairs at the loft area showing the post and beam bent that supports the roof here and the loft itself.  Checked it yesterday and there is no distortion in the frame so far, so floor upstairs is flat and solid and the roof hasn't caved in yet.   ;D  I did calculate load on these and then increased the size of the beams by 50% just to be safe.  They are almost too big now, but I guess it's alright for a first effort like this, and the bent sure adds dimension and framing to the interior- I like it! 8)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/loft_rail.jpg)

Above are the stairs and railing going up.  I used manufactured steps and risers from Lowes just so we could get 'er done fast- stained with dark walnut minwax.  The railing "beams" that the balistrades attach to are red oak from the lightning killed tree I harvested a month or so ago- not enough time to air dry (no kiln here) so I'm hoping the 'dried in place' finished product keeps its shape and color.  The top of the banister on the stairs and loft are parts of small pine trees.  One is from Katrina blow down, the other was cut off the knoll to make room for the house; both air dried.  The Katrina tree was under roof and the other not, and there was a huge difference in density and color with the under-roof dried one being much lighter in weight and color.  Both took stain alright though.  The posts for the stair rail are more of the red oak recently harvested- very stiff and strong.  One thing that amazed me was that even with the T-shape of the top rail (pine on top of oak), the railing was pretty wiggly.  Just to try something, we put two blocks of wood between the rail top and bottom against the bent post next to it: stiffened the rail up considerably even though it was located at the top quarter point.  Loft rail is too wiggly for my taste but at least it protects from falls.  Oh, and the balustrades are metal- daughter picked these out for a different look.  I would have used more of the red oak, but I have to admit the metal ones make for a more open and less weighty look to the two rails.

Below is a closer view of the stairs and railing assembly followed by a view from the front porch- very nice to sit out there and enjoy a cup of coffee and the quiet of country living.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/stairs_and_rail.jpg)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/front_porch_view.jpg)

Now that I have some time freed up, I've been catching up on other winter activities.  Wife and I have both been in a clean up and throw away frenzy- I did the "equipment room" which is a small room next to the front door that had become a catch-all for "stuff," and boy there was a lot of stuff in it.   ::)  Then I cleaned out the computer room- extra bedroom converted into a place for the eldest grandson to house his growing collection of vintage computers.  After cleaning and stacking everything on shelves and in the closet, I was totally surprised by how much room there was- his desk is to one side, and there was room for a second desk, which I need (as explained below) for my own computer-based activities.  Had an oak bench that was my first attempt at any kind of mortise and tenon construction- rough sawn oak beams and planks.  It had been a place to collect junk in the big barn while I waited to find a use for it: bingo!  I cleared off the top, and partially disassembled it, sanded all surfaces with a belt grinder (planed the top planks flat and the same thickness: they were originally 2+" and got them down to 4 cm).  Finished sanding with an orbital then put several coats of latex polyurethane on- they shined up real nice as shown in the pictures below.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/desk.jpg)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/desk_base.jpg)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/desktop.jpg)

The oak had beautiful "character" to it, and I really like the way it finished out, but if you look close, you can tell I don't have a jointer (yet) and desperately need one.  I left the top planks unattached- with their "heft," they aren't going anywhere and maybe I'll be able to convince the finance officer to invest in a jointer real soon, especially since I'll have some time to use one productively.  After showing the family the finished desk, the universal observation was: "When can you make me one?"

Got to finish the interior railing today, cut a door into the attic on the north side so I can frame up the bathtub and install ventless vents, and I'll get pictures of the upstairs rooms then.  Meanwhile, I'll get back to work on moving my education website off-campus as full retirement looms before me in June: scary to not have a "real job" in the prospects after that, so I'm compensating by tackling major website updating and publishing efforts.  More about that later: I've started a book on sawhorses that might be of interest to forum members...  ;)

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Jim_Rogers on January 05, 2012, 09:45:58 AM
As far as the wiggly raining goes, you probably could/should have put in a center support post up to it. But not all the way up to the roof, just up to the rail.
I don't know if it's something you can add now. But that would stiffen up the rail for sure.

Great job, and thanks for sharing.

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: frwinks on January 05, 2012, 11:32:24 AM
The place looks great LJ,  that bench would make a great rustic dining room table 8)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: carykong on January 05, 2012, 11:42:09 AM
Nice thread.  I started my hybrid timber frame/stick home in 2006.  Lots of the wood came off my LT 25. Home is 95% complete. Just some trim work and paint on the inside to. I can relate to your challenges. Continued success.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on January 06, 2012, 09:18:36 AM
LJ, Your Daughter and Grandson's new home is magnificant.  It being a family accomplishment adds to the treasure.

I am proud of you and your dedication and also proud to call you a friend.   :)
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on January 06, 2012, 09:58:06 AM
Thanks, Jim, I was thinking the same thing.  At this point, though, I won't be able to anchor it like I would have had I made plans for a center post before the carpet went down- adjacent to a floor truss and screwed into it top and bottom to stabilize. Well, just have to see what shapes up...

Thanks, carykong, and glad to hear you're almost done- what a feeling, to see the finish line just ahead (but be totally out of breath   :D  ).

Appreciate it, MM- friend is good, and we all need those as we see kids leaving the next: who else can we make sit there and listen to us ramble?

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: ljmathias on January 10, 2012, 09:42:38 AM
Seems strange to come to the end of this thread- this will be the second to last post with a few pictures of the finished interior.  Last post will be Friday or next week sometime after we finish the exterior clear coat and final clean up.

Let me start with a mia culpa (hope I spelled that right): when I laid out the downstairs interior walls, I just followed the plans we'd purchased, not thinking about where the floor joists for the upstairs would fall.  As luck would have it (and it's usually bad luck when you don't plan ahead), the truss next to the stairs fell just to the east of the master bedroom wall.  Result was a ledge roughly 4" wide right next to the stairway.  I'd thought about firring it in to bring the upper part flush with the wall downstairs but then got to thinking- better late than never!   :D  Why not build a bookshelve on top of the ledge, similar to what I'd done on my son's house?  We'd ended up with a ledge there also, but for a totally different reason: we re-purposed the house and added a stairway that was not in the plans and the only way to do that left a 6" ledge next to it.

Pictures below show the bookshelf and stairway from different angles or views.  I really like how it turned out, and if knew how to lie, would probably claim that it was in the plans all along.   ;D  First view is from the loft, west end, showing the railing, stairs and bookshelf.  Second is from living room looking up stairwell.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/loft_stair_view.jpg)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/book_shelves.jpg)

Next picture below is looking up at the loft, the "bent" holding up the loft and the cathedral ceiling and the stairs.  I think it turned out great... :)  Second picture is of the finished stairs and railing.  You'll notice knots and imperfections on the railings plus "live edge" on the bookshelves.  I realized recently why I like this look so much: it reminds anyone who looks at them that these came from trees, not just from a lumber store. 



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/loft_rail.jpg) 



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14190/stairs_and_rail.jpg)

Off to try to finish clear coat on the east gable end- rain predicted today so I may not get it all done.  Need to finish the upper part anyway so I can take down the scaffolding on that end.  Insurance man is coming today to take pictures for their records- time to convert from a builder's risk to a homeowners policy.  Also time to deed the house over so it drops off our tax roll- that's going to be a bear of undertaking since we'll need to survey and break up the land like we want it for the kids when we move on... hope that happens for a long time, but still and all, better to be prepared so there's no in-fighting among the offspring.

Lj
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: clww on January 10, 2012, 12:01:02 PM
Fantastic job on your daughter's house. LJ! 8)
I look forward to starting ours this Spring.
Title: Re: not quite a timber frame
Post by: Magicman on January 10, 2012, 03:08:10 PM
I like those different shots showing other angles of the upstairs.  Absolutely everything that I have seen looks very professionally done.