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General Forestry => General Board => Topic started by: LOGDOG on March 10, 2008, 08:28:24 PM

Title: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: LOGDOG on March 10, 2008, 08:28:24 PM
Hey Everyone,

   Have a question for those of you out there that may be in the know. I'm looking at purchasing a motor to power the Edger I just bought. I'm thinking 24 H.P. +/-. So I'm looking through a catalog last night and I notice that there is a significant difference in price between the Honda motors and the Briggs and Kohler motors. The Honda being significantly less money than the other two.

   My question is: Why the big difference in price? Is the Honda lacking something that the other have? Big horsepower difference in the power curve? Or is it just a value? Every Honda I've had the opportunity to operate (with the exception of one) has been a gem. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks as always.  :)

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: WH_Conley on March 10, 2008, 09:25:35 PM
If you are going to run an edger remember, 5HP for every inch of cut. Reason I know this is I have an edger, new to me, not up to speed yet and a 24 hp motor won't do it.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Haytrader on March 10, 2008, 09:38:48 PM
Since you asked.
I have had all three mentioned power sources and cast my vote for the Honda. It surprises me that it is priced lower than the others.
All will start and run if well maintained with clean air and gas.
It has been my experience that a Honda will start and run easier even if you do not take the best of care of it.
I have used them all on pumps, bale elevators, sprayers and the sawmills.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: isawlogs on March 10, 2008, 09:40:22 PM
If those are the only engins brands in the hat , I would get a Kohler because it will start better in the cold , Honda in that HP range , some of there models have cold weather issues .....  ::)  Guess that dont really apply here does it   :-X ???  

  Then get the Honda ....  Myself , I would get a Onan .


Quote from: WH_Conley on March 10, 2008, 09:25:35 PM
If you are going to run an edger remember, 5HP for every inch of cut. Reason I know this is I have an edger, new to me, not up to speed yet and a 24 hp motor won't do it.

  I don't undersdtand this , I have an edger made by Enercraft ( now Baker ) That is run by a 11 HP Honda with no power shortage. It is maxed out at a two inche cut though , anything thicker I would be edging on the mill anyway .
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: WH_Conley on March 10, 2008, 09:48:15 PM
Marcel, I was quoting what I have read here several times.

The edger I have is an old American, about 1910 issue, pretty sure the feed rate is different than yours. I would guess this where the HP issue comes in.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: fencerowphil (Phil L.) on March 10, 2008, 09:48:29 PM
I am glad that the Honda 24h.p. is a good buy, since that is what my swinger has.

When I looked at the power and torque rating on the Honda, I realized that it is precisely
matched to the rpm on my Peterson.  I bet that this is a factor to consider, and is one which
a good equipment designer must consider.  Of course, I had nothing to do with Carl Peterson's
choice, but it seems to have been a good one.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: LOGDOG on March 10, 2008, 10:03:56 PM
Thanks guys.

   WH_Conley ... my initial thought on yours was "feed rate/ old edger". Do you have the big wheels on the side with the flat belt running down under the arborand over the wheels? Brings back memories for me. Wish I had the Forum back then. Sighhh ...

    Isawlogs ...Onan is an excellent motor. I've had them on several of my WoodMizers with problems only on one. It had a defective low oil sensor and it blew a total of three times before the service guy caught it. Onan bought me a new one.  ;D Other than that no complaints.

   I see lots of the newer edgers out there running the 24 HP+/- range motors on them - WoodMizer did too for a while. Didn't think it could be too bad if WoodMizer did it. I guess on this machine I can control the feed rate so that will likely help on loading the motor.

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: pineywoods on March 10, 2008, 10:25:36 PM
There's another option.  I put a kawasaki 25 hp on my woodmizer to replace a tired old briggs. It's liquid cooled, weighs about the same as the briggs, comes with cooling system. I like it.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: LOGDOG on March 10, 2008, 10:34:09 PM
Pineywoods,

   Height is a bit of a factor as the motor is mounted up under the machine. There's a bit of a cage that it has to be able to fit in. How tall is that Kawasakifrom the bottom of the base plate to it's highest point?

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: pineywoods on March 10, 2008, 10:45:20 PM
Quote from: LOGDOG on March 10, 2008, 10:34:09 PM
Pineywoods,

   Height is a bit of a factor as the motor is mounted up under the machine. There's a bit of a cage that it has to be able to fit in. How tall is that Kawasakifrom the bottom of the base plate to it's highest point?

LOGDOG

The kaw is a V-twin so it's probably about the same, maybe a little less, no need for big cooling fins. I'll measure and get back to you. I do know that the crank shaft sits bout an inch lower than the briggs.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: LOGDOG on March 10, 2008, 11:06:47 PM
Thanks Pineywoods,

   I wanted to ask you where you found that Kawasaki and how did your up/down motor handle the extra weight of that motor. I'm guessing it weighed a bit more with the cooling pack and such. I've had half a mind to take the 24 HP Onan off my mill which runs just fine - put it on the edger, and then put something like a 38 HP Kohler back on the mill where I could feel the HP difference. I can't really complain as it is but I guess we all dream about "more power" right?  ;D


LOGDOG
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Dave Shepard on March 11, 2008, 12:11:00 AM
We had Kohler v-twins on our commercial lawn mowers, and they were very trouble free. The company, Scag, has since switched to liquid cooled Kawasakis, which are very cold blooded, but good motors. I had a 17HP air cooled Kawi twin on my mower, and it's still going strong today. I vote Honda, they always seem to start first pull, we've been very pleased with them over the years.

I think 24HP should work on the edger, it depends on the feed speed though. Our edger is 10 electric, and I couldn't even get it's attention with both blades in 12/4 oak. Feed is 20.95fpm.


Dave
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Captain on March 11, 2008, 06:50:44 AM
I'm a firm believer that the Kohler is the best engine in the Northern States due to the Honda's cold weather issues.  The Honda is a fine engine when maintained will serve for years in your Lousiana climate.

Captain
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Corley5 on March 11, 2008, 07:58:52 AM
I've got two Hondas.  A 24hp on the firewood processor and a 5.5 on the loading conveyor.  Both are very good engines.  The 24 has close to five hundred hours with no issues other than some surging at idle now and then which I've been told caused by some crap in the carb.  It works out after a while ;) :)  It did flood the crankcase with gas once but that had something to do with running it when it was an even 0 degrees F  ::) ;D  It always starts and goes right to work.  When it comes time to replace it I'm going to look at something that's at least fuel injected and probably liquid cooled too.  This the first winter I've had the 5.5 and it's a good little engine but doesn't start as easy below 15 degrees.  The 6.5hp Chinese Honda clone on the old elevator starts better.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: chet on March 11, 2008, 10:46:20 AM
I fired up my mill for da first time last week since last fall ta cut a mantle. Da temp was a balmy -14°F and my 13HP Honda fired up on da second pull.  :)  Surprised me, 'cause it normally only takes 1 pull.  ;)





Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Dave Shepard on March 11, 2008, 12:39:01 PM
I was unaware of the cold weather issures. I borrowed a metavic trailer that had a Honda to run the log loader, and it always started first pull, regardless of temp or if it had been sitting covered in snow for a couple of months. Of course, temp may not be a problem down there. How much cold weather do you get in LA, LOGDOG?


Dave
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Timburr on March 11, 2008, 03:51:55 PM
Quote from: LOGDOG on March 10, 2008, 08:28:24 PM
My question is: Why the big difference in price?

It's more to do with economy of scale.  For every 100 motors made by Kohler and Briggs, Honda make a 1,000.  Although there are plenty of Kohlers here in Europe, Briggs  are less common.  Every other small modern industrial/ agricultural machine here is powered by Honda.   I can imagine every country on earth has some Honda power.  The same cannot be said for Briggs or Kohler!
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 11, 2008, 04:25:09 PM
Honda seems to be a favorite brand here. I would also suggest Kabota. Briggs and Tecumsa takes a lot of cranking to get running in my experience.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: isawlogs on March 11, 2008, 05:24:05 PM

Cold issue starting is on the 22, 24 hp twin cylinders , the single cylinders are not a cold worried motor , they will start no matter how cold it is or how long they have been sitting there.    ;)
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: LOGDOG on March 11, 2008, 07:08:59 PM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on March 11, 2008, 12:39:01 PM
I was unaware of the cold weather issures. I borrowed a metavic trailer that had a Honda to run the log loader, and it always started first pull, regardless of temp or if it had been sitting covered in snow for a couple of months. Of course, temp may not be a problem down there. How much cold weather do you get in LA, LOGDOG?


Dave

Not so much cold weather down here Dave. Although we got 3" of snow the other day which was the most I've seen in 7 years here - cumulatively. It'll get down to 20 or so now and then. Usually by 10:00 a.m. it's above 30 in the coldest times of the year.

Timburr, I didn't realize the scale of Honda's production. That's a big positive in my book. Seems like parts availabilty should be excellent wherever one would go.

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Part_Timer on March 11, 2008, 09:07:27 PM
I went with the Kohler on my mill because I had a dealer close for service.  I'm not a small engine person at all.

The mill in Africa had a Honda 24hp elect. start.  The engine had been removed form the mill and had been setting on the dirt floor of a hut for 9 months and on the concrete in a warehouse for about 4.  Looked bad, lots of rust and the air filter was plugged solid.  we checked the oil, filled it with gas and it cranked right over with a little choke applied.  Hows that for a sales pitch. :)    No cold weather over there though, unless 70 is cold. ;)
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Handy Andy on March 11, 2008, 09:14:22 PM
  Noticed you didn't post any prices.  Looked in my latest Cooks catalog and they have a 25 hp Kohler replacement mill engine for 1497.79  Is it OK to post prices?  Jim
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: LOGDOG on March 11, 2008, 10:26:27 PM
Prices are ok with me Jim. I don't know about everybody else.  :) The Honda I priced was a tad less than that but then I noticed they sold it without the muffler.  :-\ That said it's right there even.

That's a pretty good sales pitch Part_Timer. You might should call the marketing department at Honda and have them do a spot on that one.  ;)


LOGDOG
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Don_Papenburg on March 11, 2008, 10:56:38 PM
Well guys I am not impressed with the Honda on my pushmower It is less than 3years old used very little  and as of last summer would not start. No spark. My old pusher had a briggs and scrapiron motor and that thing was 15years old and would start on the second pull.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 12, 2008, 07:31:14 AM
I here ya Don. My mower is 10 years old and the rest of the mower will be a rust heap before it calves.  :D Depends on how folks look after stuff. A lot of times a push mower is abused beyond belief and might sit under cover or out in the rain in the yard. My father used Briggs motors on his seed trucks in spring to run conveyors out in the fields to load seed planters for years. I know a couple were a good 20 years old. He always covered the motors the end of the day and looked after them, while some one else might have them trashed in 8 years.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: pineywoods on March 12, 2008, 10:46:01 AM
LOGDOG I measured the kaw on my mill--21 inches tall plus a 3 inch removable  plastic nozzle sticking out the top of the air cleaner.  Weight was not a problem, 106 pounds ready to run. I got mine from the cub cadet development lab, they had a gas burner tractor used for development purposes, wanted  diesel, so just swapped out the kaw and sold it to me at a very attractive price. This is the same motor used on cub cadet and john deere lawn tractors.  You need to go to www.tulsaenginewarehouse.com.
Their web site is a treasure trove of info on most brands of engines up to 30 hp.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: LOGDOG on March 12, 2008, 12:15:21 PM
That's amazing that you mention the Tulsa website. I just happened up on that site myself last night.  ;D You're right, lots of info on there.

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Quartlow on March 14, 2008, 09:51:50 PM
The square bale chopper cous has in the barn is Honda powered,  gets used once a year. It will start on the third or fourth pull. it gets used shut off and put away. never even gets the gas drained out of it.

Old Kohlers are real brutes. But you couldn't give me a new one.  I have three dealers within ten miles and they all say bad things about the new ones.

Back when I worked for the rental company everything with a small engine on it was Honda powered. They wouldn't buy anything else. We had very little trouble with them. As for the big ones being cold blooded. If its electric start, why care? If your pull starting it thats a different story.

Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: isawlogs on March 14, 2008, 10:11:43 PM

Aint a starting issue on um ... its keeping them running smoothly .  ;) 
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: customsawyer on March 14, 2008, 11:13:23 PM
I have the 27 hp kohler on my edger that is almost 4 years old with well over 3500 hrs on it. All I have done to it is keep the air filter and the oil changed and feed it gas. The thing that gets my eye brows to rise is the fact that it is running the same spark plug all that time but if it isn't broke I don't like to fix it.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Dave Shepard on March 14, 2008, 11:33:16 PM
Better bring another plug with you tomorrow, you've jinxed yourself. :D

isawlogs, I wonder what makes the bigger twins so cold sensitive. Of course, your idea of cold might be a bit different than some of the others of us around here. ;) Worked with a guy from Quebec a few years ago. It was a nice -20°F day with stiff winds. He was all bundled up, I think he had a T shirt and a sweater on that day. ::)


Dave
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: sawguy21 on March 14, 2008, 11:50:18 PM
The only cold weather issue I have seen with Honda and some others is the breather tube icing up in the air box. Crankcase pressure can then push the crank seals out of the counter bore. We pull the tube from the air box and block the a/b opening with duct tape. The tube can be left like this year round, just don't let the enviro nazis see it. Honda does not offer a cold weather kit like Kohler
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: mad dog on March 20, 2008, 10:11:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                      I have had honda motors all my life,they are the best, can not kill them, I have tried
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: olyman on March 22, 2008, 02:26:35 PM
when you go to get parts for them--onan is outraegeous, then drop a lot to kohler, then drop a tad more to briggs.. my small engine friend says some parts for honda are hard to get, and cost---sooooooo  that being said--i have a honda clone on a diesel gene i had to completely rebuild!!!! all the parts, crankshaft,rod,piston,rings,gaskets,bearings,and a few small pieces--came to----------145 clams!!!!! and guess what?? that engine has a fully pressurized oiling sytem!!!! i had a few problems getting the parts--but they sure werent costly!!
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: beenthere on March 22, 2008, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: olyman on March 22, 2008, 02:26:35 PM
.........--i have a honda clone on a diesel gene i had to completely rebuild!!!! .................

What is a "honda clone"..??
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: isawlogs on March 22, 2008, 04:29:43 PM
 They are a Chinese look-a-like of the Honda engin.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: olyman on March 22, 2008, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: isawlogs on March 22, 2008, 04:29:43 PM
They are a Chinese look-a-like of the Honda engin.
and guess what--a lot of the parts will switch also--tho i dont know enough to know what switches. but my small engine friend does.
Title: Re: Small Engines - Honda vs. Briggs and Kohler?
Post by: Dave Shepard on March 22, 2008, 07:23:46 PM
Do the Chinese ever design anything of their own? They seem quite adept at copying. :-\


Dave