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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: Greg Cook on October 24, 2006, 08:01:13 PM

Title: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Greg Cook on October 24, 2006, 08:01:13 PM
I'd like to hear from TimberKing owners (and former owners) any reasons I should NOT buy a TimberKing.  I've been looking at Woodmizers pretty hard, but thought I'd check on the TK's just to be sure of what I wanted in a mill (like dating before you marry! ) I've got the info from TK, seen the DVD, but want to hear from you guys or girls what you don't like or would change about your mills.  If you changed over, what brand did you change to and why?  Looks like a pretty decent mill, but I'd rather hear the voice of EXPERIENCE than a sales video.  Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Bibbyman on October 24, 2006, 08:17:15 PM
Pretty brutal question. 

I doubt if you'll find any TK owner that's not happy with his mill or the company – unless they are ready to trade up to a larger mill with more features.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: red on October 24, 2006, 08:28:53 PM
I think we need to know what models you at thinking about

how much you will be using the machine

what kind of wood you will be sawing   

and if you have already seen the machines in action

just for starters   :D

or how about Baker, norwood,D&L,Lucas and of course Peterson 
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: SawDust_Studios on October 24, 2006, 09:03:51 PM
Sounds like you are answering your own questions..  If you've looked at woodmizers hard, why are you not buying one?  Did you find something you didn't like about them?  Do you feel there is a big price difference?   I'm sure most timberking owners are please with their purchase. 

Is there a specific model you are looking at?
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Greg Cook on October 24, 2006, 11:09:22 PM
Hey guys, thanks for those quick responses.  Bibby, not trying to be tough on anybody's rig, but if there's a weak point or just something that could use tweaking, you folks on here are bound to have found it.  I can see the obvious differences between TK's and those nice orange WM's but what about little differences?  WM's are still cantilevered for a reason, but physics tells me that being supported on both sides of the head is a good idea.  'Course, I could add a seat to a 'Mizer and more than offset the motor ;D.  Really though, I think either would serve my purpose...just want to be fully informed before dropping that kind of cash ($12K to $16K)

When I first started thinking about a mill, it was going to be pretty much personal use, but hanging around here has given me an itch that needs scratching.  Wifey also thinks it would be fun work to do some sawing for the public.  She watched the TK video with me, and seeing their basic mill has a hand crank to feed the sawhead, she wanted to know wouldn't it be better to pay the extra for the auto-feed. Of course, I had to agree with her (wives are often right when they agree with their husbands). 

Most of my inital sawing will be ERC, but lately I've been looking at the trees that need culling, wondering what I could use them for.  I do have a 30" cherry laying out here waiting for me to buy a saw. :)

Also, Mr. Bibby, your comment means a lot, froma diehard Orange-man such as yourself.  Thanks again
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: treecyclers on October 25, 2006, 12:22:23 AM
As the proud papa of a TK B1600 that has ALL the bells and whistles available, I will admit that I am very pleased with my purchase, and will add to that the caveat that I am ready for the B20.
I have the full hydraulics package, with makes life easy when loading logs.
I also have the log turner setup.
Pros of the unit are that the price was great for the capabilities, it cuts great, easy to tune, the mechanics of milling are pretty easy to master (less than 500 boardfeet into owning it I was buzzing like a champ or chimp, depending on who you talk to), and have had only one issue with it which was my own DanG fault for not dogging the log securely, and I bent the snot out of one of hte guide rollers.
Cons to it are that, when i have honker logs on it (really big ones), the turner contraption sucks. It works on a pipe that is a little weak for the duty I subject it to, but I have a forklift that I use when necessary to turn the really big logs.
I might even suggest kicking the motor up a few horses, say to a 45 horse or so, as the hydraulics and blade run off the same power drive unit, which bleeds off some of the power for cutting into moving the head down the rails.
It paid for itself in less than 2 years, which was pretty remarkable, being that I live in something of a desert.
The underlying question is, "Would you do it again knowing what you know now?"
The answer is a resounding YES!
With all it's pros and cons, it's a fantastic mill, and I exceed it's capabilities as a matter of course in what I do, which I didn't anticipate in the first place, so in that it's my underestimation of what I really needed in the first place.
I will either be trading it in for a B20, or selling it off outright in the next couple months and getting my B20 in the spring.
Either way, it works for me, and if you're seriously interested in a 1600, message me directly, and we can talk.
Have a fantastic day!
SD
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Bibbyman on October 25, 2006, 04:09:28 AM
Quote from: Greg Cook on October 24, 2006, 11:09:22 PM
WM's are still cantilevered for a reason, but physics tells me that being supported on both sides of the head is a good idea.  'Course, I could add a seat to a 'Mizer and more than offset the motor ;D.

Also, Mr. Bibby, your comment means a lot, froma diehard Orange-man such as yourself.  Thanks again

Yes,  I'm THE number one fan of Wood-Mizer – even if Arky thinks he is sometimes.  So indulge me this one comment about the cantilever head debate. :D

As for the cantilever head design,  for every salesman that tells you it's a bad idea,  you'll find a thousand Wood-Mizer owners that'll show you that it does work and why it works well.  The lobby of the Wood-Mizer home office in Indy is plastered with names of owners with over one million board feet sawn.

(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/mmboardfootwall.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/tomtag.jpg)

Another suggestion – You may be able to buy a nice used mill with more features and power that would be in your price range.  The tradeoff would be no warrantee and you'd likely start to incur some additional maintenance expenses like belts and other wear items.



Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: fstedy on October 25, 2006, 05:00:17 AM
The TK is a fine machine and has done very well for me. I run the B 20 and comparing apples to apples will cut with any of the popular mills. A lot depends just what you get used to running and how well you adapt your sawing technique to a particular mill. I think the cantilever versus 4 post mills is a moot point they both cut very accurate lumber and at a good production rate once you get comfortable with the mill you kind of develop a rythm when you are cutting. I admit WM has some great features ( automated dog can also be used to turn the log and the powered blade guide) but you will pay for those features. TK has recently added some of those goodies, but only to the big TK 2400 mill, that I know of. Many like the open side on the WM they say its easier to off load and being able to cut odd size logs. As far as offloading you learn to use what you have. As far as the odd size logs you still have to get them thru the throat of the sawhead. New or used TK, WM, Baker  and others are good machines. If your looking for a good buy I would say a used TK is you way to go( I bought mine with 32 hours and saved 6K off new price ). If you'll be using the mill to make a living then the added features of the WM are a plus. In the end you have to sort it all out and make a decision based on your situation. Good luck in your choosing.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: SawDust_Studios on October 25, 2006, 07:43:45 AM
This debate is so similar to what we here around here every week.  What's the difference between a John Deere,  a Kubota, and brand X.  Or even Ford, Chevy, or Dodge.  Alot of it is personal preference and what features which companies provide.  I think you'll be happy with either of those mills.  And, its nice that your picking a FF sponser, either way  ;D
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: woodbeard on October 25, 2006, 08:14:18 AM
Hey Greg, it was good to meet you the other day.
One other difference between the TK and WM mills is the operator position.
On the Timberking, the operator stays with the controls at the end of the mill.
On the Woodmizer, you walk ( or ride if you get the seat option ) along with the sawhead, unless you spring for the remote operator station.
When I was making my decision, I was leaning towards the TK arrangement.
After hearing from other folks here, I decided that, since I was going to be working alone most of the time, and running all around the mill anyways, the walk-along idea was probably better for me. The downside is that I have to walk back and forth all the time, over or around the trailer axle on longer logs, getting sprayed by dust and debris from the debarker with the engine roaring in my ear. On the other hand I like being right there, watching the cut and hearing the engine, so I can tell when to slow down or even stop if I notice something ( usually a side post I forgot to lower ::) )
Good ear muffs and goggles deal with the aforementioned hazards, and also tend to keep spectators from bugging me while I'm sawing. :D
As mentioned before, it all comes down to what works for you in your particular situation.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: KENROD on October 25, 2006, 09:52:31 AM
  I have the B20, love it. When I bought it I, like you, thought the four post head would be better. Now that I have talked to more WM owners, I don't think there is as much advatage as the TK sales people make it out to be. Bought the only thing I would like to change is to put an electric cluth on the engine pully so I could stop the blade between cuts.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 25, 2006, 10:20:08 AM
WoodMizer-

High re-sale, superbly engineered and simple, reasonable parts cost, built like a tank, cuts square lumber.

The only thing I don't like about TK is the sales guys need to blow smoke.. Outright missleading statements..  ::)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: tcsmpsi on October 25, 2006, 11:54:48 AM
Yeah, that's my drawback with TK, as well. 

I take it then, jp, that the cantilever design has not been a bane for you?   ;D
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Will_Johnson on October 25, 2006, 03:24:16 PM
As usual a lot of good, fair-minded advice here.

I am concerned to hear that some feel that they have received "intentionally misleading" advice from TimberKing. We make a point of NOT going for the "quick and aggressive" sell. Among the tools we have in place are that our sales people are not on commission. They are paid to give courteous answers to questions and try to help folks make a good decisions.

In fact, because we have a 30-Day No-Questions Money-Back Guarantee, if we make a sale based on misleading advice chances are we will get the sawmill back.

That's not to say we aren't biased: we're rightly proud of our products and we're always going to tout what we feel are the strengths of those products. Our competitors feel the same way about their products and they work hard to tout their strengths.

Since I haven't posted for a while I should be clear that folks know my biases: I'm the president of TimberKing.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Jeff on October 25, 2006, 03:28:11 PM
What da ya think of that Greg? If ya need him, ya know where to find him. The TimberKing Head Honcho is here for ya if you need him. Thanks for popping in Will!
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: fencerowphil (Phil L.) on October 25, 2006, 05:05:02 PM
QuoteInveniemus viam aut faciemus

A saw maker that speaks Latin!

Who woulda' thunk it!

Phil L.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: LOGDOG on October 25, 2006, 05:14:34 PM
Hi Greg,

  I've had 4 WoodMizers, 1 Logmaster , and now my Peterson ASM mill. I think there is one thing that (in the bandmill arena especially) makes Woodmizer an excellent choice. This is how easy it is to set the machine up, level it, cut square lumber all day long, pull the outriggers up and take off. Everything else being equal, you'll not find an easier machine to level up and keep level. That single beam is so much easier to level than two.

  I have a friend about 10 miles down the road that just bought a bandmill. He didn't want to pay the money for a WoodMizer so he bought a different kind. Twin rail and I'll leave it at that. He called me in frustration after not being able to get the thing to cut nice straight lumber. I took a couple of levels over to his place and spent the better part of a morning leveling his mill up. Part of the reason it took that long was that I had to undo everything he did and start fresh. Even then we used all my shims, and still had a couple lowspots where one of the 4 rollers that the mill rides on was not spinning while moving forward. An obvious sign that the track was not level.

  Point is ...in my worst sawing location, it took me no longer than 15 minutes to be sawing lumber with my any one of my WoodMizers. Say nothing about the time savings, it speaks to the ease of use of the machine. The people at WoodMizer are great. Very knowledgeable. They say what they'll do and do what they say. That's huge.

  Re-sale is also excellent on the WoodMizers. I've had my Peterson for sale for some time now and can't seem to move it. Took me less than a month to sell any of the Mizers. Don't get me wrong ... love my Peterson. Just thought life was taking me a different direction. I've decided now that I'll keep it. If I were to buy a bandmill again though, I guarantee you it would be a WoodMizer. Which by the way I will be ... an LT15 to go with the 4 sections of track I already own for it. Even their LT15 uses a cantilevered head design as I understand in spite of having two rails.

  If possible, get two in the same parking lot or at a show for that matter and time the setup. See what you want to have to go through each time you setup and take down and make your decision. Best of luck with your choice. Oh by the way ...word of caution: That blaze orange is downright addictive! Once you get a taste for it you won't be the same again.  ;)

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Bibbyman on October 25, 2006, 06:29:32 PM
Wow!  4 Wood-Mizers!    :o

I may have to re-think my statement of being THE number one Wood-Mizer fan.  smiley_headscratch

We've only had three Wood-Mizers in the past 12 years and then only two at one time.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: SawDust_Studios on October 25, 2006, 07:03:47 PM
"Wow!  4 Wood-Mizers!"

I'm on my third and I have one of those little LT40 die cast models, does that count?  :D

Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Chris Burchfield on October 25, 2006, 07:24:25 PM
     I began tracking that orange color from a black and white add, 30 words or less, in the back of a Mechanic's Illustrated(?) 18 years before last July. "Turn your Logs into Lumber." Beginning with the internet about six years ago I was able to find good information on the net about different mills and their applications. TK is a fine piece of equipment, has a respectible position in the market and was in serious consideration. In the long run I went orange with all the horns and whistles including command control. A lot of machine for a man who works alone. Future plans include the potential for adding help should I feel the need. I didn't buy with the intent of buying bigger later. I wanted to buy one machine, spend money, one time, get what I wanted and this one will probably outlive me. I'm 48 yoa. Cantilever design is engineered (by folks much smarter than me) and has multiple applications throughout the world. There are also cantilever sawmills throughout the world.

    I anticipate you'd get the kind of response from any of our sponsors I got yesterday from Woodmizer. The mill was half way through a 20' red oak, 2" drop, 12" wide. The engine choked down (what I thought) like it was running out fuel. I'm 25 miles out from my owner's manual. That would be 50 miles round trip. Called the 1-800 number for tech support. Of course this was during business hours and I used a cell phone from the woods. Both my grand dad's past away not knowing of cell phones. They'd never believed they could have been on the back side of the 40 acres they were plowing with a mule or horse and been able to place a call like that. Wound up a poor connection at the quick connect fuel supply. Remade the connection, pumped the heck out of it and Glenda fired up no problem. Key here is I also suspect I could have received the same response from any of our sponsor's had it been a used piece of their equipment.

     Your using it, your paying for it, you have a head that works. Good luck with your decision.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: woodbeard on October 25, 2006, 08:26:18 PM
QuoteI am concerned to hear that some feel that they have received "intentionally misleading" advice from TimberKing. We make a point of NOT going for the "quick and aggressive" sell.

Will, the main point of contention people seem to have in this regard is the comparison, in TK's advertisements, between the 4 post and "monorail" systems that suggest that the latter of the two makes for a wobbly saw, and a wavy cut. Many folks feel that this in particular is misleading. I'm just trying to clear up this point, as I feel it could be useful feedback for you.
I contacted Timberking several times when I was shopping for a mill, and always found your staff most helpful, professional, and courteous.
Thanks for sponsoring the forum and being available.  :)

Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: LOGDOG on October 25, 2006, 08:42:09 PM
Yep (4) ... had fun with all of them. As Chris noted, support from WoodMizer while in the field is excellent BAR NONE not just looking at sawmill companies - I'm talking any kind of company I've dealt with for anything. As bandmills go they'd be my first choice again. I've flirted with others but in the end always come back to WoodMizer.

The other day while helping my friend with his new "other brand" bandsaw mill I find myself having silent thoughts while running the mill (like we all do with our earplugs in). I kept hearing myself say "I guess that's why WoodMizer does it that way and not this way."

The apache's used to say "there are many ways to get to the same place". I'd say this would accurately describe sawmill design and function. Have to admit though, there is such a thing as a "better mouse trap" and WoodMizer seems to have it on the grand scale. Sales and customer testimonials seem to back that up.

We'll be excited to hear what choice you make Greg. Sounds like you have a supportive wife backing you up too. That's cool. I'm lucky to have one like that myself. :)

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: SawDust_Studios on October 25, 2006, 09:20:30 PM
Are you like that hair plug guy, what's his name ???  Not only are you the president, but also a client  :D

As a proud owner of a woodmizer, I must say, I was happy with your salesforce when determining the mill for me.  I just got likely and found a used WM when I was looking at the timberking and just never went back.

Now, if you want to send a me a shiny red 2400, I'd be happy to give you the opportunity to sway my decision...and write up a nice unbiased review.  ;) ;)


Quote from: Will_Johnson on October 25, 2006, 03:24:16 PM
Since I haven't posted for a while I should be clear that folks know my biases: I'm the president of TimberKing.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: DR_Buck on October 25, 2006, 10:23:29 PM
Quote  Wifey also thinks it would be fun work to do some sawing for the public. 


Hydraulics !


This is by far the best suggestion I received when I asked similar questions almost 3 years ago.  You can't make money if you spend all your time loading and turning big logs.   And you for sure can't do it by yourself.    Hope "Wifey" is ready to help turn thoes 24: oaks over. ;D   


BTW     I bought ORANGE
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Kcwoodbutcher on October 25, 2006, 11:46:17 PM
There's a barely used 1600 in the FOR SALE section if you are interested.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: flip on October 26, 2006, 04:58:36 PM
I've got a B-20 and love it's guts but you should run at least one mill before you buy. 

The reason you should not buy any mill.......there are already too many saw dust addicts here, we don't need another :D ;)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: JimBuis on October 26, 2006, 05:39:28 PM
"Inveniemus viam aut faciemus."  A quote attributed to Hannibal.  In English, We will find a way -- or we will make one!

Hannibal:  the Carthaginian general who led an elephant-riding battalion across the Alps to attack Rome in the 3rd Century B.C.



Jim
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: thurlow on October 26, 2006, 06:35:59 PM
I thought it was, "I came, I saw, I sawed"  ;D
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Greg Cook on October 26, 2006, 07:30:55 PM
Much appreciation to all of you who took time to knock the dust off your hands and throw in your 2 cents worth.  A special thanks to Mr. Will Johnson for joining in.  I do have to agree that the literature and DVD seem to be a bit heavy on knocking "the other mill". Don't spend so much time telling me what's wrong with another brand, just tell me what's great about yours.  Also, Will, I think you do have reason to be proud or your saws...apparently others think so too!

Y'all's responses have been just what I hoped for-letting me know the real-world capabilities, pitfalls, quirks, etc.  I know most folks are proud of what they own, but want to see  some little things changed on the new models. I get the feeling that these saw companies are actually listening to you, and incorporating your ideas into their new designs. Doesn't matter if it's monorail or four-post (or swingblades, for that matter), if you like it, you'll enjoy running it and be a better sawyer.

Kenrod, fstedy, and treecyclers-good of you to respond, and I think Will oughta send y'all a few blades for being good rep's ;D

I'm still watching the "For Sale" section, as well as Sawmill Exchange and ebay.  I did have to wonder why I was seeing TK's for sale with such low hours on them (one had only 50 hours) Did they find they needed a bigger mill, or didn't like sawing, or haveing some other problems.  This was what prompted my posting on here. I'm glad I asked the right crowd.
Greg Cook
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: oldsaw on October 26, 2006, 07:37:28 PM
Quote from: Greg Cook on October 24, 2006, 08:01:13 PM
I'd like to hear from TimberKing owners (and former owners) any reasons I should NOT buy a TimberKing.  I've been looking at Woodmizers pretty hard, but thought I'd check on the TK's just to be sure of what I wanted in a mill (like dating before you marry! ) I've got the info from TK, seen the DVD, but want to hear from you guys or girls what you don't like or would change about your mills.  If you changed over, what brand did you change to and why?  Looks like a pretty decent mill, but I'd rather hear the voice of EXPERIENCE than a sales video.  Thanks for your help.

Let me give you a list of reasons...



Okay, that about does it.

One of the best out there, and some great people as well.  I've got my eye on a 1600, just too cheap and poor (and noplace to park it) to get one.  Even Bibby has to admit they're nice, and that's really saying something.

Mark
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: pigman on October 26, 2006, 10:58:57 PM
Quote from: Greg Cook on October 26, 2006, 07:30:55 PM




I did have to wonder why I was seeing TK's for sale with such low hours on them (one had only 50 hours) Did they find they needed a bigger mill, or didn't like sawing, or haveing some other problems. 
Greg Cook
I have seen several mills from different manufacturers for sale with only a few hours on them. Besides the reasons you mentioned, people get sick or even die. Sometimes we just have to have a new toy tool and after we get it we change our mind. ::)

Bob
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 26, 2006, 11:21:47 PM
There was a heck of a deal advertised out here for an WM 96 Lt40 hydraulic, edger and resaw, for around 12k but don't know if it's still available.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: footer on October 27, 2006, 11:26:55 AM
Quote from: Greg Cook on October 26, 2006, 07:30:55 PM
Much appreciation to all of you who took time to knock the dust off your hands and throw in your 2 cents worth.  A special thanks to Mr. Will Johnson for joining in.  I do have to agree that the literature and DVD seem to be a bit heavy on knocking "the other mill". Don't spend so much time telling me what's wrong with another brand, just tell me what's great about yours.  Also, Will, I think you do have reason to be proud or your saws...apparently others think so too!
Greg Cook

I agree.
I have an LT40 manual and plan on upgrading in the future to a super or lt70. I tried to look at all the options out there and sent for the info on the TK. Just the way they go out of their way to try and say how bad the other guys product is inferrior is enough to keep me Orange.
I am also glad to here from Will, even though I am a big WM fan. It shows that this forum can be good for more than just the end user. There is obviously a large enough market out there, and competition is  good for the consumer in the form of better products, prices, and support. After all. With no competition, what would be the motivation in making a better product, and keeping the prices within reason.
Also, If you plan on doing any work for hire, get hydraulics. You won't regret it. You can make money with a manual mill if you
1: Like working your ass off.
2: Are in an area that has no competition
3: Are smart in the way you charge for your services, and deliver a quality product/service.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 27, 2006, 11:49:23 AM
Since the owner of TK has posted, I would want to know if It was my company what his sales man said, earlier this year.

I was looking all mills for a new purchase.  Almost bought a swinger... what was I thinkin'?..  :D

After reviewing the TK sales package, I called and during a long conversation the sales guy tells me when the subject of Wood Mizer came up was...

A. The cantilever head design is not strong, creates makes misscuts, from wobbling, etc.

B. I would need to spend an hour each time I moved the mill to "re-adjust" the mill as moving it would cause miss alignment.  Also trying to rat on WM as being weak or problematic.

As I've stated before, he had to, or felt the need to dog Woodmizer. I'm a salesman, I know when I'm being stroked, and when I'm trying to be closed.

This topic has come up before here on the FF. I would have a sit-down with this guy if it were me, cause he's damaging TK's rep and sales if you ask me.

Sorry I don't remember his name.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: oldsaw on October 27, 2006, 12:08:15 PM
Quote from: jpgreen on October 25, 2006, 10:20:08 AM
WoodMizer-

High re-sale, superbly engineered and simple, reasonable parts cost, built like a tank, cuts square lumber.

The only thing I don't like about TK is the sales guys need to blow smoke.. Outright missleading statements..  ::)

Kind of an unfair statement in the end.  TK talks about the "potential" and their "advantage", things I expect from competitors who do things differently, WM brags about the advantages of their cantilever design.  Both are valid designs, and both work very well.  I've talked to people from both companies when I was closer to pulling the trigger (funny how life gets in the way of things) and have nothing but great things to say about both companies sales staffs with my admittedly limited contact.  Both were incredibly professional and very friendly.

All advertising must be taken with a grain of salt.  It's designed to get attention and then either entertain or entice in a direct sense.  Do you really think that buying some of these men's perfumed body washes that women will crawl all over you?  That buying a sportscar will make you sexier or beautiful women will really want you?  I hope not.  Does TK's ads state that the WM design is a steaming pile of bad engineering?  Not in my mind, it's a "this is how we do it and why" statement.  Exaggerated?  A bit, but to explain their point, not to bag on WM.  Besides, women won't want you any more with a red mill than an orange one...or an orange one than a red one.  Two of the best choices you could make.

Mark
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: footer on October 27, 2006, 12:46:38 PM
Just one more thing to add.
I think some of the reason for some mills coming up for sale with low hrs on them besides the ones mentioned are that
1 Some people just realize that it's not for them.
2 They find out that it's a lot more work than they thought it would be.
3 They can't find a market that is profitable.
4 They bought the mill to do some projects for their self and no longer have a need for it.
Just my 2 more cents :)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: tcsmpsi on October 27, 2006, 04:02:28 PM
Will,

I'm not wanting to beat a dead horse, and would not make any mention if I did not sincerely believe that TK may be doing themselves an injustice by specifically targeting a well proven and unique design (obviously, being specific to WM) as being inferior.  I have gotten all the literature from TK.  So, I know what's there.

When I first came to this forum, I was looking for a good manual mill.  The 1220 was in the top of my list.  When I bespoke (being as dumb as I was to the bandmill arena) of the 'weakness' of the cantilever design, I found quickly and beyond any doubt, that was certainly not the case.  Left me pretty much with my britches down and feeling as dumb as I actually was.

Personally, I believe that TK has their own merits, and that they are strong enough to stand on their own, and certainly come from strong stock. 

Though I did not acquire either TK or WM, it certainly had nothing to do with either being in the least bit incapable or inferior.  More a matter of logistics than anything else.

Nah, color didn't even have anything to do with it.   :D


Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 27, 2006, 05:02:35 PM
I think TK's got a good mill, bad salesman that's all.

I absolutely hate it when a sales person tries to work me over with bull..  ::)

Many a time (if I have time), I found the owner of the company, and explained what kind of BS is going on, and got a few fired with a good deal in my pocket to boot as a result.

Just the way I am with this.  I'm not the only one that's had this BS from TK's sales.  It's been posted before..  ;) ;D

If a guy's not smart enough to sell a peice of equipment on it's own merits, he autta move on. Of course it's an entirely other matter if the company is based on that kind of sell as policy.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 27, 2006, 05:30:25 PM
I think my first experience with this was back in the 70's.

I had a friend from Kuwait, who's father is an oil Baron.  My friend was going to school at the University of San Francisco. Let me tell you they had money that we cannot comprehend.

I took him out on my boat one day, and he had to have one. We're dressed in T-shirts and jeans, and I take him to an inboard speedboat shop.  The best in town (Sacramento).

We're looking at these $20,000 Eliminators V-drives and a salesman comes up and ask's not to get in the boat. I started asking questions about the craft, and he looks at us like we're rif-raff I guess (maybe we were...  :D ), and walks off.

I grab the first employee I could find, and demanded to speak with the owner. The owner comes out, I tell him we're interested in a boat, and walks us in his office.  All the while the salesman has this goofy, befuddled look on his face.

I tell the owner what when on, and the owner whips out an order invoice. My friend takes over, and proceeds to order a custom Eliminator daycruiser race boat with every imaginable amenity.  Even had EVERY piece of hardware gold anodized. The sale came to thousands of dollars, like double the original price.

The owner, asks how he would like to pay for the boat, and needed a deposit, and my friend busts out a huge wad of cash, and asks if this will work. The salesman was sent packing.

The owner and I became close friends, and still are till this day.

Sorry for the long story, but I had fun reminiscing.. :D
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: fencerowphil (Phil L.) on October 27, 2006, 05:50:35 PM
As some of you have already noticed,   :P
I work on pianos for the "bread-and-butter" of my living.
The static torture of sitting and pounding pianos all day is
profitable, but you need a contrasting activity for the sake
of your mind and your body.

Back in my early days in the piano trade I was a salesman...
or,  at least I tried.  Of course I went to the training -
fine training designed by IBM, customized for an American piano
manufacturer that some of you would have heard of.
At that time,  two Japanese companies were beginning to
eat American companies' lunch, so to speak.  This was 1976.

To make a long story short,   as a young saleman (before I
was a technician and restorer) I was taught certain things to use
as sales points and to use to overcome objections and to beat what
the sales guys call "perceived drawbacks."  Guess what?
Much of those points were, shall we say,  anything from exaggerations
to downright stupidity.   Guess what again!  Since the sales guys teaching
the other guys to sell were not technical, nor rebuilders and restorers,
THEY PROBABLY BELIEVED IT ALL, TOO!  :-\

Ah, the life and plight of the salesman!   After I firmly convinced myself that I was
not a salesman,  I went into making an honest living. (Couldn't resist.)

:D
Phil L.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Jeff on October 27, 2006, 05:59:42 PM
After reading these posts and thinking about it I would have to say Jeff, You cant answer this question. "Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing?"  Unless I had owned one.  I certainly could make several points if the question was posed in a different form like:  "Why SHOULD I buy a TimberKing?" I could come up with lots of reasons without having ever operated one.  The thing is in my mind, If I had posed the first question, for you guys posting on here that have never owned or operated a TimberKing answering the questions, your thoughts, related to the qustion at hand would be irrelevant.  I'm not trying to lambast anyone, just sitting here trying to think logical thoughts.  If you ask me what I think of salesmen in general, you'd probably get a non-positive response from me, but again, that's certainly not the question at hand. :)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 27, 2006, 06:30:21 PM
Oh, and then there's those pesky forum moderators... :D



Quote from: Phil L. on October 27, 2006, 05:50:35 PM
As some of you have already noticed,   :P
I work on pianos for the "bread-and-butter" of my living.
The static torture of sitting and pounding pianos all day is
profitable, but you need a contrasting activity for the sake
of your mind and your body.
:D
Phil L.

Hey Phil,

I used to own a Yamaha G5 ebony, voiced and regulated. Man what a gem.  I never should have sold that one..  ::)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: woodbeard on October 27, 2006, 07:25:35 PM
I have an old Jesse French upright that is almost, but not quite, a half step flat across the whole board. So, if yer ever in the neigborhood....
;D
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: solodan on October 27, 2006, 07:44:30 PM
I agree with Jeff, I could not answer the  question with out ever owning or operating one. Now in defense of the salesmen at Timber King, well I imagine that they have been trained to answer questions a certain way in regards to  their products.  The engineers at Timber King could argue all day long with the engineers at Wood Mizer. Both designs work, and that is the bottom line, but they both have advantages and disadvantages. Wood Mizer is the first brand everyone thinks about  when portable band saw is mentioned. This industry works like every other industry, where as every one is trying to gang up on the guy in the #1 position and find flaws. If you don't disprove  the guy at #1, then nobody will buy anything but brand #1. I am quite sure Wood Mizer has some flaws, but they have a great reputation and a huge loyal following. If I manufactured bandsaw mills for a living, you better believe I would find some faults with everyother mill out there. ;) I think that all of the saws out there are capable of cutting nice lumber. I have seen nice lumber as a result of the cantilever design, but I have also seen more wavy lumber come from a Wood Mizer than any other saw. ??? Is it that the design is inferior, or is it that just more lumber is produced on Wood Mizers. ::) It is probably the later of the two, and I would think that the  other companies are going to use  this to their advantage. ;)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: JCam on October 27, 2006, 11:18:59 PM
I would have bought a TimberKing 1220 if they could have gotten it to me in a reasonable amount of time. After waiting 11 weeks I bought a used WM LT40. My experience with the 1220 was limited to two days of sawing cherry logs with a local owner who was willing to demo it for us. I was sold on it, it cut great lumber and was very easy to setup and run. The only advantage the LT40 has is the power feeds which take a lot of hand cranking out of the work. Four post or cantilever... doesn't matter as long as the engineering and build is to spec. As far as the sales force go, TimberKings salesman was great. He answered all my questions and didn't try to feed me any B.S. Called me back when he said he would and I was happy until the delivery date was stretched out. When I called to cancel the order they refunded my down payment, and apologized for the extended delivery. Now, on the other hand, Wood-Mizer has treated me kind of out of hand. I had no trouble with transfer of ownership, I did have trouble with my first order from them. I ordered a debarker and two boxes of blades, over $2K. The blades and the controls for the debarker arrived OK. The motor and mounting bracket for the debarker came in banged up. They were packed in a cardboard box basicly loose. When I called about it the salesman I talked to blew me off. Sparks, a FF member who works for WM, stepped in and got new parts to me for the ones that were banged up. Their response to my suggestion to use better packing, maybe a wood crate, in the future... they blew me off. They get very few complaints about their packaging, unless the shipping company turns the box over on it's top, imagine that! So, like people say, you pay your money and take your chances.
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: LOGDOG on October 28, 2006, 09:38:40 AM
Greg,

  I hope we're not getting away from the main topic too much. Jeff makes a good point in that most of us have never "owned" a TimberKing specifically. Although, many of us have owned double rail, 4 post cutting head mills. By way of similarity I'd say that enables us to shed light on the matter at hand. Some here have even owned both designs and then some. ;)

   Now as to Solodan's comment about :
"I think that all of the saws out there are capable of cutting nice lumber. I have seen nice lumber as a result of the cantilever design, but I have also seen more wavy lumber come from a Wood Mizer than any other saw.  Is it that the design is inferior, or is it that just more lumber is produced on Wood Mizers. "

   I'll say this: Wavy lumber is STRICTLY an operator issue ( a user problem if you will). It is entirely about the maintenance of the blade and machine (more often the blade than anything else) that leads to either wavy lumber or straight lumber. Blades can be configured to cut steel if they need to - and straight at that. It's a non-issue ...certainly not related to the cantilevered head design.

    And as to JCam's comments about being blown off by a WoodMizer Rep ...well it's kind of like this: I give people the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're having a bad day. First time that is. If it persists, I'll ask them if I've done something to upset them or if they're having a bad day which usually draws them out and either results in an apology from them or them telling me I've been a jerk. :o I've also found that when it comes to getting what you want - say what's on your mind. Ask for it, short and sweet. If you're not happy with the parts, tell them to overnight new ones and make it snappy (nicely of course) and send a prepaid shipping label for the damaged ones to be returned. I've been dealing with WoodMizer for 14 years now. I can honestly say that NEVER ONCE have they not satisfied a request that I made of them. Now that's saying something. I can also say that of the folks at Peterson. Being respectfully direct in making a request is key to getting what you want in a timely fashion.

   All of this is just details. In these cases influenced by human decision making. To narrow it down to the basics and the main issue, I still say get the two of them in a parking lot and go at it. Or go find an owner of each that's willing to take the time with you and work for a solid day with each of them. Be sure to run the mill yourself and not have them do all of the sawing. You won't benefit in the same way. Work every position on the mill. Saw, tail, turn the logs, load the logs, set the machine up, take it down, etc. At the end decide which has the working function you like best and go for it.

   As to the color issue, well ... when you're driving down the highway at 60 mph and anyone of us spots orange there's not a doubt in our mind what it is usually. For simple visibility and recognition there's no comparison. I may even paint my swinger orange. Would Peterson's flip?!?!?  :D

Best of luck Greg.

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 28, 2006, 10:55:12 AM
I think this is an honest discusion, that has taken a curve here or there, like most forum threads do. Specially when I post..  :D

I have to agree that wavy lumber is operator error, as I was told long time ago, band mils cut wavy lumber, so I bought a chainsaw mill as my first machine.

Now, after sawing about 7,000 bf on my Woodmizer, I would agree on operator error. I had only 2 boards wave on me, and that was because I pushed an used old blade to far, and I had a problem with a Timberwolf blade.

All the rest of the lumber I sawed was done with used rusted 1.5 WM blades that came with the machine, I had set and resharpened. I'm putting up the building now, and I'm amazed at how accurate and square the lumber is.

The band blade mills are great if you learn them...  8)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: solodan on October 28, 2006, 01:58:19 PM
I, agree about wavy lumber being an operator error, and I hope my statement was taken that way. :) Since more lumber may be produced on Woodmizers than any other machine, we see more results of operator errors from those mills. I was never implying that Woodmizer mills produced wavy lumber. However , swing mills never produce wavy lumber. ;)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: jpgreen on October 28, 2006, 02:07:35 PM
Nope wasn't in reference to your post in particular Dan.  That's a common comment.

Thanksgiving at my little bro's in Reno.  He's got to play with "Steel Breeze" in Tahoe that night..  ::) Hope it doesn't snow, cause we'll be up your way..  :)
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: LOGDOG on October 28, 2006, 03:42:14 PM
Right on Solodan. I just wanted to drive the point home so there wasn't any doubt in onlookers minds ...perhaps folks that are new to the forum and milling that might be reading the thread as well. You're right on the swinger comment too though. Think we can sway Greg that way? ??? ;D

LOGDOG
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: solodan on October 28, 2006, 05:21:58 PM
Quote from: LOGDOG on October 28, 2006, 03:42:14 PM

You're right on the swinger comment too though. Think we can sway Greg that way? ??? ;D

LOGDOG

I don't know, but swingers have there problems too. Right now, no mill is perfect for every situation, and I think we have to decide what best fits our needs. Like I've stated before, I will eventually add a band saw to my operation one day. ;D And Pat I'll be here rain, or shine, or snow, as I have way too much to do before I get to go anywhere. ;D ::) ;D
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: Greg Cook on October 29, 2006, 12:00:34 AM
Quote from: LOGDOG on October 28, 2006, 03:42:14 PM
You're right on the swinger comment too though. Think we can sway Greg that way? ??? ;D

LOGDOG

Perhaps y'all can sway me over to a swingmill...say if you have one that's just sitting around in your way.  Unused equipment is such a travesty. ;D
What actually got me thinking about a mill in the first place was watching the Lucas demo's on Bailey's website.  But discovered on here that the swingies prefer to eat bigger logs than I would have on a consistent basis.  No point buying a hog if you can't feed it properly!
Greg
Title: Re: Why should I NOT buy a TimberKing ?
Post by: LOGDOG on October 29, 2006, 07:51:41 AM
Well Greg, we might not be able to get you that far BUT you can come saw on mine any time you like. I can think of at least one advantage to the swinger for you and that's not needing hydraulic's to turn the logs. It's alright if most of your timber is smaller. Especially now that Peterson offers a thin kerf blade. You could get into a WPF pretty reasonable, especially second hand. It's a thought. Also, since the invent of EZDogs for clamping, as well as some of the tools invented by one of our members here "Fabrik" using a swinger has never been so fun. But like I say, you're welcome for a visit any time if you want to make some sawdust. :)

LOGDOG