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Outdoor topics => The Outdoor Board => Topic started by: Jeff on August 10, 2006, 11:19:57 pm

Title: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on August 10, 2006, 11:19:57 pm
Tom and I ovserved some interesting behavior just outside of the cabin backdoor. A swarm of Bald Faced Hornets had been using one of our Mountain Ash trees as a source for pulp for making paper for thier nest. Its unreal what they have done to this tree and its really, at least to me, a work of art. If this tree eventually succombs to this behavior, I plan on getting it for some sort of project.  Below are some photos and also a link to a movie I made. I was right in with them. Something I would not usually do as most know that bald faced horntets stings are like getting hit with a ball bat, but this was just too cool and them honets were just too busy. :)
Hornets harvesting pulp for paper
http://youtu.be/UdYjjJL9iIw

Has anyone else come across anything quite like this?

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_4.jpg)


(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_3.jpg)


(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_2.jpg)


(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_1.jpg)


Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: isawlogs on August 11, 2006, 11:33:23 am
  Jeff , I have seen that here a few times , they had some pin cherry looking awfully like that ...  you sure that is mountain ash in the pic  ???
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on August 11, 2006, 11:48:58 am
Absolutely. We planted it. It was innitially damaged when one of the boys up to the cabin shot it with a pistol. We staked it up and tied it off and it strengthened and started growing like heck. If you look at the one pic, you can make out the tell-tail orange clusters of fruit from the tree.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on August 11, 2006, 11:55:28 am
Here is a zoom that shows the leaves and fruit. Your right Marcel though, the trucnk strongly resembles cherry.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_5.jpg)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: isawlogs on August 11, 2006, 12:15:05 pm
 
   It would make a nice lamp .... Standing on its branches over in the corner of the cabin behind a rocker .   ;D   
   Thats a nice tree , I am going to get me one and plant it on the farm . Do the birds like those fruits .
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Kevin on August 11, 2006, 06:03:05 pm
That's neat, where's the nest Jeff?
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on August 11, 2006, 06:49:54 pm
No clue, they were tailing off through the woods. If I go back up with Pete and Lynda this week, and they are still working that tree, I'll see if I can follow them.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Don P on August 11, 2006, 07:18:13 pm
Well doc you see I was chasing these hornets back to their nest... :D :D
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: mur on August 11, 2006, 08:07:42 pm
Two of the photos sure look like sapsucker holes to me.  Hornets are for sure grabbing something there though. 
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Kevin on August 11, 2006, 08:44:55 pm
Could it bee they are after the sap in the tree?
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on August 11, 2006, 08:55:22 pm
We were right in close enough to see the wasps clipping out the bark with their front mandibles. There were also other bees there getting sap, but the hornets were harvesting the bark. I couldnt capture it with the camera, although I tried and tried.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Tom on August 11, 2006, 08:56:56 pm
I'm sure they were using the sap, but, I think they were also collecting fiber.  These holes are square, not the round hole of a pecking bird.  The hornets were industriously working in the new squares and the squares seemed to be getting bigger.  I think that is the fiber that they are making their nest from.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: jon12345 on August 11, 2006, 09:25:02 pm
I got stung on the leg by one a few yrs ago when I was playin in the woods with my cousin, and it left a huge welt on my leg.  Lately been seein mud wasps here, building long tubes and stocking them with spiders to feed their larvae. It's pretty amazing how big some of the spiders are.

I got stung by a regular wasp the other day and the swelling was pretty bad but finally going down today.  I got stung on the eyelid last summer and almost no reaction, so I think I might be developing an allergy to them :-\
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Onthesauk on August 11, 2006, 09:46:18 pm
My last house I put up a western red cedar fence around a firewood shed and compost bins, 1" X 6" in 6' lengths.  On the West and South side, (maybe because they were the warmest or most dry,) wasps of some sort came in and peeled off layer after layer of fiber for nests.  The fencing was rough sawed and eventually looked planed.  Probably took off a 1/4 inch over the course of 12 to 14 years.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on August 12, 2006, 10:41:04 am
The place you'll find that nest will be along the edge of a thicket, where the sun can hit it part of the day. I was thinning a couple years ago and I almost stuck my face in one of their nests and with that Stihl in hand and harnessed to me, you outta have seen a fella swatting hornets and trying to get that quick release (yeah right) undone.  ::) I was lucky with the face shield they never got at my face and I don't think they even stung me, as I was swatting to beat the devil.  :D But, they didn't want me any closer than 100 feet from that nest. I remember that a skunk or some other night prowler must have got them, because the nest was in shreds a couple days after and everything was calm again. ;D
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: jon12345 on August 12, 2006, 04:16:11 pm
Christmas tree farms are havens for hornets and other stinging creatures  :o
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on August 12, 2006, 04:34:58 pm
.....and choke cherry patches along line fences, where my mother always sent me into the abiss for cherries to be used in her jelly.  ::)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: beenthere on August 12, 2006, 04:52:45 pm
Christmas tree farms are havens for hornets and other stinging creatures  :o

Any idea why that would be?   ::) ???
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on August 12, 2006, 05:17:32 pm
I dunno beenthere, but I find them alot in fir thickets also. Can't really say they have an affinity to fir trees. I beleive it's more likely you run into them more often in those situations because you are covering almost every square inch of your ground weather it's pruning Christmas trees are spacing fir and spruce stands for future logs. Sometimes the blasted things will let me walk by them, and I won't notice them, when hanging ribbons and as soon as the brush saw operators come by, they attack. So I get blamed for not marking the nest, even though I never seen the nest nor got attacked. ::)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on August 21, 2006, 09:10:31 am
While at the cabin I took a few more photos of the Mountain ash and Hornets. They are relentless. I didnt take the time yet to try to find the Hornet nest but I know which direction it is, and its straight through the thickest bunch of tag alders on the place. :)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/mountain_ash_4.jpg)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/mountain_ash_5.jpg)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/mountain_ash_6.jpg)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Burlkraft on August 21, 2006, 09:29:23 am
Wow Boss.....those are some close pics.....did ya come through unscathed ??? ???
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on August 21, 2006, 09:33:53 am
I find alot of those mountain ash in old clear cuts. They seem to some back like pin cherry on some sites. Usually alot of softwood present on the sites. The tree sure is getting hammered by the white faced hornets. They do use wood fibre (obviously) to build their nests. I think their saliva binds the fibres. I remember something on 'Nature' about the process. I've got a yellow jacket nest in the woodpile to 'work around'.  ::)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on August 21, 2006, 09:41:18 am
Yep, unscathed. Those hornets are so busy they don't seem to notice me. I just move slow and respect the fact that any second I could get my butt kicked.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: UNCLEBUCK on August 21, 2006, 11:04:37 pm
I have those type of bees in my old barn I am fixing , dont see many of such dark color like that but I sat watching knowing about this thread and I watched them all crawl inside a 1/8 inch hole on a 6x6 50 year old post that holds the barn floor up. Got me a tube of black roofing glue and pumped it full in the hole and went about my business .  Last year my cousin was out checking his cows and flipped a old rotten log out of his way and he got covered by these darker colored bees and barely made it home alive .

Anyone wearing suntan lotion preferably with banana scent is like bee bait even around mild honey bee boxes .
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: CHARLIE on August 22, 2006, 12:56:22 am
Jeff, it's easier to see the nest in the Fall when the leaves are off the trees.  I used to be amazed at the number of hornets nests I would see when I was out in the duck blind in the backwaters of the Mississippi River.  Almost all the hornet's nests I've seen have been hanging from tree limbs. I've seen them as low as about 6 feet off the ground and as high as about 25 feet up in a tree. But once I had a huge hornets nest under my deck stairs hanging under one of the steps about 6 feet off the ground. One year, as I sat in my duck blind, I counted 8 huge hornets nest off in front of me in the woods. Yep, Fall will be the best time for finding that nest.

One Fall, when I lived in Stewartville, Minnesota, I looked out the kitchen window to see a huge hornet nest in the maple tree. It had been hidden by the leaves. I waited until January when the hornets were all sleeping...... ::) .......I took the nest down and tore the paper shell away from it.  Inside are several flat disk stacked on each other with a spindle between them. Kind of like a high rise apartment. Each disk has a couiple of rows of holes around the rim where the eggs are layed. It's quite interesting.  :P

 
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Bill Gaiche on November 15, 2012, 09:48:38 pm
Say Jeff, How about an update on the Mountain Ash? bg
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on November 16, 2012, 09:29:07 am
It was dead the following spring. I have the trunk of the tree stuck up on the support beam in the little cabin at home.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: doctorb on November 16, 2012, 09:44:03 am
Bill-

I am very impressed that you revived this 5 year old thread.  I would never have seen those pics without your interest.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: beenthere on November 16, 2012, 11:08:33 am
Had 3 bald-faced hornet nests built here this year. Had forgotten about Jeff's experience with them.Very interesting.

Took pics of the closest nest being built and on looking up information, learned that only the queen hornet stings when the nest is disturbed, but is a relentless stinging machine. So the drones out collecting nest material (which they say is often woody fiber ) are apparently not the stinging type.
Pic of nest in this link

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,59716.msg872234.html#msg872234
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on November 16, 2012, 11:30:22 am
I've had people since, point out "sap sucker holes"  Since Tom and my up close and personal investigation, I now know better. the sap suckers are simply taking advantage of the hornet's fiber harvesting operation. :)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on November 16, 2012, 01:41:37 pm
I've seen it here, but at the time never made the connection before Jeff's thread. I often see the shrub dead with those markings in the dried bark. As I might have mentioned earlier we have a lot of mountain ash on softwood sites after cuts. And we also have a lot of white faced hornets every Aug-Sept on those sites that we thin. This year though, I got slapped by two nests of yellow jackets in the ground. But I also saw white faced nest to hanging, usually face level. ::) Never had them hit me though. With thinning you'll find every nest. ;)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Magicman on November 18, 2012, 05:44:32 pm
OK, then is this the chicken/egg thing?
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/Image0041.jpg)
Are we saying that these holes in this Yellow Poplar could have been caused by hornets instead of sapsuckers?
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on November 18, 2012, 06:03:54 pm
That's not hornets. Hornets make squarish holes. Look at the pictures. Yours isn't near the same. I'd say certainly caused by a bird.
 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/Image0041.jpg)(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Magicman on November 18, 2012, 07:52:52 pm
So FINALLY I know something about the "Birds and the Bees", and it is all about the mouth parts.  Peckers make round holes, and mandibles make square holes.  Gotcha.   :P  smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on November 19, 2012, 04:14:08 am
MM, my guess is that someday you'll stumble upon a shrub or sapling that the hornets have been at for paper making. ;D
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Raider Bill on September 02, 2015, 09:38:29 am
Tom and I ovserved some interesting behavior just outside of the cabin backdoor. A swarm of Bald Faced Hornets had been using one of our Mountain Ash trees as a source for pulp for making paper for thier nest. Its unreal what they have done to this tree and its really, at least to me, a work of art. If this tree eventually succombs to this behavior, I plan on getting it for some sort of project.  Below are some photos and also a link to a movie I made. I was right in with them. Something I would not usually do as most know that bald faced horntets stings are like getting hit with a ball bat, but this was just too cool and them honets were just too busy. :)
Hornets harvesting pulp for paper (http://www.forestryforum.com/media/hornets_small.wmv)


Jeff, What plugin is needed for this vid?
Has anyone else come across anything quite like this?

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_4.jpg)


(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_3.jpg)


(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_2.jpg)


(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/ash_hornets_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on September 02, 2015, 10:35:17 am
I've updated the old topic with a youtube link.

http://youtu.be/UdYjjJL9iIw
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Magicman on September 02, 2015, 11:12:46 am
Very interesting as well as educational.  Watching nature is always fascinating.   :)
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on September 02, 2015, 05:07:50 pm
I always thought sapsuckers did this
Thanks Jeff
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Magicman on September 02, 2015, 05:24:16 pm
Pete, look at Replies #31 & 32 comparing Sapsucker holes and Hornet holes.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on September 02, 2015, 05:43:10 pm
Haven't seen any white faced hornet nests this year. Stepped on a yellow jacket nest though. They let me know of their presence.  ;D
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Bricklayer51 on September 03, 2015, 09:05:39 am
I have a apple tree out back that looks exactly like that ash tree .I hope it does not kill it as it had enough apples this year for some apple bread and sauce.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Jeff on September 03, 2015, 09:27:12 am
From what I have noticed since taking those photos on subsequent tree finds, it always seems that they pick a tree that has had some sort of trauma.  The mountain ash pictured, it had been shot with a rifle by one of my nephews and we had it staked and tied to try and save it as the trunk had such a hole and crack in it. The last few trees I found up to the cabin looked like they had big freeze cracks in them where the trunk was split open.  Maybe take a look at your apple tree and see if you see any prior issues. It would be interesting to note.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: Bricklayer51 on September 03, 2015, 03:39:38 pm
Looks like your dead on Jeff this tree has been clipped a couple of times by a snowplow and two or three years ago one of the bigger limbs broke off from to much weight.
Title: Re: Making Paper
Post by: SwampDonkey on September 03, 2015, 04:56:52 pm
Like Jeff said, and that's often the way many insects choose their "victims".  ;D