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General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: tlooney on June 01, 2006, 10:35:25 PM

Title: black walnut logs
Post by: tlooney on June 01, 2006, 10:35:25 PM
Saw an ad for black walnut logs for sale today so I went and checked them out. There were three logs from the trunk and then some limbs that would make short logs. The three were 9, 10, and 11 feet long and the butt log was 25" diameter.

I don't know what black walnut logs are worth when buying them in log form so I offered him $150.00 for them. He laughed and said someone told him he could get $3000.00 per log!!

Can someone tell me if he was lied to or should I have offered more cash or what. I can tell you that I would not have offered that much for them.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Phorester on June 01, 2006, 10:46:00 PM

He needs to ask the feller that offered him $3000 per log to put his money where his mouth is.

One way to figure out how much they are worth to you is to determine what you would do with them, and how much money could you get when you did that.  Then you would have an idea of how much to offer him.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: metalspinner on June 01, 2006, 10:52:47 PM
That guy is nuts! :o :D    What I think happens sometimes is that people see that a little piece of wood (like a pen blank or turning square) at some retail outlets sells for x$ then try to extrapolate that to their tree.  Or they see a table built with walnut at a gallery with a heavy price tag on it and think their tree should be worth ten times that because after all, a fella can make ten tables with this wood. :D  He needs to be educated. :P
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: tlooney on June 01, 2006, 10:58:18 PM
He asked me what I was going to do with them? Cut gunstocks or what and I told him I did not know because I had never cut blackwalnut before so I would probly just make lumber.
Kinda made me mad when he said three grand  a log cause when I first got there to look at them I asked him what he wanted for them and he said he didn't know what they were worth.  Then he tells me that after I offer what i offered for them,  he could have saved me the time and  told me up front. >:(
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Bill on June 02, 2006, 12:26:38 AM
To be fair this isn't really the same because even though it had 14" to 15" at the butt it wasn't straight ( about twenty some crooked feet to a spindly top ) and had branches coming off it - so it became firewood - I really feel guilty sometimes about burning some of the high dollar hard woods but they just aren't straight enough nor branch/knot free for even a few feet.   :'(

Price to me - two tanks of fuel and some bar oil
Price to homeowner ( my aunt ) - zilch .



Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Ron Wenrich on June 02, 2006, 05:54:28 AM
Walnut hasn't set anything on fire in a number of years.  Veneer quality walnut will fetch about $4/bf in the log, but you also have to deliver the log to the buyer's yard.  Walnut lumber is only worth about $2/bf for the upper quality in trailerload lots.  It drops off in price as the quality drops.  But, you can't pay those amounts to the landowner, since you have some value to add to it.

If you're looking at buying the whole tree, then you might be looking $.50/bf.  Your price may be a little low, but that's what they're worth to you.  You may want to give him your card and tell him you can saw them up into lumber for him when he can't find a buyer.  If he does find a buyer at that price, you should also get to meet the guy.  He has some knowledge of markets that you don't have.

Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: woodsteach on June 02, 2006, 07:46:34 AM
Great answer Ron! 



Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: urbanlumberinc on June 02, 2006, 09:41:48 AM
I've run into the same thing a few times recently, both times with walnut logs.  One guy seemed to think that two grand for a 20" x 7' trunk log and some branch wood seemed fair.  I passed on the logs but did offer to purchase a bag of whatever he'd been smoking :D :D :D
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: VA-Sawyer on June 02, 2006, 09:54:27 AM
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 02, 2006, 05:54:28 AM
If he does find a buyer at that price, you should also get to meet the guy. He has some knowledge of markets that you don't have.



As far as I know, he would have knowledge of markets that none of us FF members have.  :o   :o

I have only seen a few Black Walnut logs I would be willing to pay much money for, and they weren't for sale. I only knew about them because their owners had hired me to saw them up.
VA-Sawyer
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Gary_C on June 02, 2006, 11:40:01 AM
By my rough estimates, those three logs would average 150 bd ft each. If you paid $3000 per log, that would be $20 per bd ft or about 10 times the maximum value. Since your log costs should not be more than one third to one fourth the selling price, you would have to be selling that lumber for $60 to $80 per bd ft.      Good luck!!

This is a very common misconception about walnut logs. I have had so many calls to sell walnut logs or trees where they are expecting big bucks that I refuse to even go look anymore. The last one I recall was one tree in a farm yard, right beside the house, and hemed in by the electrical service to the farm. All that was by their description. I was very nice and polite and told the lady that even it I was interested and I was not, the tree would be worth a few hundred at most. She got very angry and said she would have it cut up for firewood and then she hung up on me.!!   :)

What she wanted was enough to pay one months rent in the nursing home for her husband and that was about $3500.  :o
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Sawyerfortyish on June 02, 2006, 12:56:25 PM
I run into this all the time. Everyone thinks that every walnut is worth thousands because they only remember that one tree in several hundred that brought big bucks several years ago. But just in case I have a picker truck load of sound walnut logs with good diameter and nice butts I would sacrifice for say 1500 each ::)
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Frickman on June 02, 2006, 03:48:53 PM
There's still alot of stories going around about some of the prices walnut brought back in the 1970's. Just like a fish story, the story gets better every time.  ;) ;)
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Ron Wenrich on June 02, 2006, 03:59:05 PM
I remember they ran a story in the local paper about someone who paid $36,000 for a walnut tree in Indiana.  The year was around 1978.  I happened to show some timber to a veneer buyer and asked if he would pay that much for a tree.  He said he would if it was worth it.  Typical stumpage back then was about $100/Mbf. 

After that story ran, I got several calls and they were all worthless.  I had one where the guy wanted to sell 12" walnut with a fence running through it.  He had several acres of veneer quality white oak that he wouldn't part with. 

I also remember a few years back where one of our truckers took some veneer logs down to the a German veneer yard.  They had a log they paid $50,000.  It was a large log; I'm thinking about 36" at the end of a 15' log.  The growth rings were evenly placed and a perfect log.

My point is that there are some logs that are worth that price.  But, you're not going to find them in someone's back yard.  The better quality walnut are woods grown.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: tlooney on June 02, 2006, 04:25:36 PM
Thanks to all, I feel much better now.

But as rude as the fellow was to me, he can cut it into firewood for all I care.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: rebocardo on June 03, 2006, 12:44:17 PM
Great answer Ron.

> But as rude as the fellow was to me, he can cut it into firewood for all I care.

Hey, that sounds like a line I have used before :D

I thought your $150 was a generous offer, I usually have people pay me to remove their "logs" after their $3000 buyers disappear.

Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: twoodward15 on June 03, 2006, 02:08:07 PM
It's always the walnut logs that are worth so much.  Where do these people come from.  That wood grows on trees.  Don't they know that.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Brad_S. on June 03, 2006, 10:21:12 PM
Quote from: tlooney on June 01, 2006, 10:35:25 PM
There were three logs from the trunk and then some limbs that would make short logs.  
Don't even pay for these. Limb wood usually does not make good lumber. The heart is usually off center and the lumber is full of tension.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Ironwood on June 04, 2006, 12:12:21 PM
Yeah,

  Folks are living in a dream world. I have had a number of times were the folks were.............well fishing for a nest egg. Sorry, cut it up for firewood.

                         Reid
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: treecyclers on June 04, 2006, 03:00:26 PM
I have an ordeal like yours on hand right now.
I was contacted regarding 3 very large Alligator Juniper by the homeowner, that they wanted to get rid of.
Between the husband and wife, they didn't have their stories straight, and it led to some confusion.
Long story short, they want some cash out of the deal, which I am fine with, but they have some champagne hopes and caviar dreams.
Someone along the line told them that they are worth about $5K, and when I told htem that I would buy the logs for $500, they about had a heart attack!
What I explained to them was that, I have costs associated with removal, milling, hauling, and storage, to the tune of about $1200, by my estimations, assuming a 4 month turn.
Cash value of the lumber by my estimations is around $4500, less the $1200 for my work, leaving a potential net profit of about $3200. I then came back to them with the option of a percentage of hte net profit of the total lumber produced, like 25%, payable upon the sale of the lumber.
The conditions I plaed upon it was that:
1) The first $1200 is mine to recover my costs.
2) I retain all slabs as my sole property.
3) Their portion is payable upon sale of the lumber, at a price determined jointly based upon current market conditions, subject to negotiation upon the lumber being saleable.
4) I have the markets available, the network in place for distribution. I am responsible for hte sale of the lumber, and all costs associated theretofore.
As I have yet to hear from them, and it's been about 2 months, I dunno what the answer is.
Oh well.
SD
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: redpowerd on June 04, 2006, 04:17:31 PM
anyone care to explain the reasoning why walnut is/was so popular, brings high prices, or commands such attention from folks with little wood knowledge to them thinking theyre sitting on a pot of gold with a walnut tree in their backyard?

im interested in the bit of history here that forced black walnut into sky high prices. my buddy has a few rows of saplings in his yard that he plans on retiring with. whenever he talks about his trees i ask him when he plans on mowing that sumac plantation down in his yard. he he.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: ARKANSAWYER on June 04, 2006, 04:20:03 PM
  I love these stories.   Run into this quite a bit.   Most of the time I buy walnut for $0.50 to $0.80 a bdft which is the going rate in the Ozarks.   Then you get these yard trees worth thousands.
 I started giving them a bid and on the back of a business card I write the bid and the date.   Then I tell them the bid is good for 30 days and after that the price drops 10% a week after that.   I make a note in the book in the truck and call them back in 30 days to see how the sale went.  ;D   I may be a crook but I am upfront and honest about it.   :o   About a third of them I get a return call in two weeks and buy the logs.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: thecfarm on June 04, 2006, 05:08:08 PM
Seems like in my area red oak is the million dollar baby here.Was a guy at work that asked me about his oak on a stone wall with fields on each side of the wall.He was about to buy the field next door to him.Nice and limbing,should be worth alot he thought.  :-\ I never saw them,but asked him how high the first limb was.It wasn't good,8 feet or so.He didn't know if the trees were used for fence post or not.And you know how the rest went.I suggested firewood or pallet logs,from what he told me,but I told him to have someone look at them for better advise.Some people are not happy with the truth until they hear it from 4-5 people.Alot of advise comes from people that is not even in the wood industry.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Frickman on June 04, 2006, 07:38:09 PM
QuoteAlot of advice comes from people that is not even in the wood industry.

How true.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Sawyerfortyish on June 04, 2006, 08:09:56 PM
I think that brought about the saying (put your money where your month is)
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: rebocardo on June 04, 2006, 09:23:20 PM
treecyclers,

imo, You gave them too much information. I would not give customers my cost on anything. It just creates more problems then it solves. I learned that from selling cars.

Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: urbanlumberinc on June 04, 2006, 11:31:05 PM
Rebo makes a good point.  Customers are on a need to know basis as far as I'm concerned.  Besides, If I were forced to add up my overhead I'd probably kick myself for getting into this racket instead of something safe and profitable like a worm farm or something.

The one thing all of these stories share in common is a misinformed/uneducated seller of the logs and an informed buyer.  Whenever somone quotes me the going rate for cut, dried, graded lumber, I kindly remind them that that lumber has likely made trips through a hundred thousand bucks worth of machinery, and been trucked cross country before it reached their local Rockler.  I see the same thing all the time these days in different venues; people these days think food comes from grocery stores, not farms, and lumber comes from home depot, not a sawmill.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: getoverit on June 05, 2006, 10:46:48 PM
One would think that with the high cost of housing these days that dimensional lumber was bringing a premium, but it is far from that. I found out really fast that sawing pine lumber brings no real profit. There is no way I can make money sawing pine and compete with the box stores selling kiln dried and planed lumber for $.54/bdft.... it just cant be done.

The only exception to this is that you are able to sell to a niche market and sell lumber in sizes that are not readily available in the stores.

As for me an my mill, I wont even try to compete with the box stores on pine.

My dad cut down a rather small black walnut tree several years ago, and didnt do anything with the short 4' sections of logs except stack them under the shelter of the barn on the ground. Termites have eaten all of the sap wood, but the heart is still in tact on these logs... he still thinks they are worth thousands...I cut one of them up just to see what it looked like and ended up giving one of my friends a blank large enough to make a rifle stock. I wont even try to sell the remaining pieces.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: tlooney on June 05, 2006, 11:09:35 PM
Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread, I think I will give that gentleman about a month then swing by his place and see if he found his buyer yet for that gold mine he has. ;D

Who knows I might make him an offer he can't refuse. :D
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: solodan on June 05, 2006, 11:26:49 PM
Quote from: Gary_C on June 02, 2006, 11:40:01 AM

By my rough estimates, those three logs would average 150 bd ft each. If you paid $3000 per log, that would be $20 per bd ft or about 10 times the maximum value. Since your log costs should not be more than one third to one fourth the selling price, you would have to be selling that lumber for $60 to $80 per bd ft.      Good luck!!

:o

I agree , your log costs should never be more than 1/3  the sellling price, but I think 1/4 is more realistic. I prefer free logs ;D

One thing I do need to metion though is,  you are from Oregon, What kind of walnut is it? What is refered to as black walnut on the west coast is quite often claro walnut, and yes it can bring in $100bf. Now I'm not saying you should offer him what he wanted,  but  if it is a highly fiqured  claro then maybe you should go into a partnership with this guy. You have a sawmill, he has some potentially real nice logs ???
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: redpowerd on June 06, 2006, 12:00:12 AM
good stuff, still wouldnt mind hearing the history of walnut, i did post a querey back there.

folks round here like it for their guns, and my buddy down the path wont beleive me that its toxicity is
harmfull to his very close by garden.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Ron Wenrich on June 06, 2006, 05:52:39 AM
I have seen in a couple of posts that some have tried to equate log value to a certain portion of lumber price.  You may be able to get away with that if you don't need many logs.  But, the bigger boys don't play it that way.

Log value =  lumber value - mfg costs - profit

That's why its important to know your numbers.  Lumber value means everything in the log, not just the best or just the worst. 

I have seen cherry stumpage bring more than what the lumber is worth.  Every log that rolled into a sawmill was done so at a loss.  Why?  Because someone knew his log values and his markets.

In our case, veneer sales usually pays for the stumpage and the logging.  But, the margin between stumpage value and lumber value is usually only a few hundred $/Mbf.

The reason you can't beat those box stores on pine is because their operating costs are so much less than yours.  They also have better recovery rates and they really sort the daylights out of the lumber.  Grading is everything.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Sawyerfortyish on June 06, 2006, 06:15:39 AM
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 06, 2006, 05:52:39 AM


In our case, veneer sales usually pays for the stumpage and the logging.  But, the margin between stumpage value and lumber value is usually only a few hundred $/Mbf.

I'll agree with you Ron thats how we figure our logging jobs.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Gary_C on June 06, 2006, 09:45:52 AM
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 06, 2006, 05:52:39 AM
I have seen cherry stumpage bring more than what the lumber is worth. Every log that rolled into a sawmill was done so at a loss. Why? Because someone knew his log values and his markets.

I don't understand that statement.  Did you mean that someone did NOT know his log values and his markets?

From my experience using raw material costs as a percentage of sales is a common practice. In fact one company I worked for had an rough target of "manufacturing a product for a dime and selling it for a dollar." I realize that is not going to work in the lumber commodity markets. If you compared your log costs to your total sales, would it fall outside that 25 to 33 percent range?
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: twoodward15 on June 06, 2006, 11:14:38 AM
Gary, I think he meant that the veneer logs from the lot paid for the cost of ALL of the lumber and logging operation and then some.  Any logs left over were the profit margin on the job if there was any.  Knowing that the cherry wasn't going to make them any money now, but not wanting to waste logs they sawed them up.  I'm guessing.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Ron Wenrich on June 06, 2006, 04:57:30 PM
There was a bid sale a few years back that brought $3.25/bf stumpage.  I happened to buy logs off of this particular logging contractor when I worked at a mill in his area.  He knows his markets.  At that time, upper grade cherry lumber was about $2.50/bf, maybe a little higher.  But, every log that was sold to a sawmill was sold at a loss.  His veneer values were probably in the $4-8/bf range.  The veneer had to make up for the cost of logging, shipping and the loss on the sawlogs.

As for percentage, in my area, if you are buying for 25-33% of the final sale price, you won't be buying much timber.  You might get away with that in pine, maybe even less.  I think a good rule-of-thumb is that good logs are worth 1 Common lumber prices, mid grade logs about 2 Common, and below would be pallet prices.  Although I have seen the prime logs go for close to FAS prices. 

But, your area may be very different.  Your timber quality might be not as good, your timber size might be small (which raises logging costs), and trucking distances might be more.  There are factors to consider. 

Manufacturing for a dime and selling for a dollar is OK, but you also have to consider the cost of the raw materials into the equation.  And, in most cases, you aren't selling for a dollar straight thru.  I always found it kind of amusing that when you ask someone what lumber prices were like, they would always either quote their highest or lowest value.  Optimist vs pessimist.   :D
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Buzz-sawyer on June 06, 2006, 11:20:42 PM
It kinda reminds me of when I used to make money trapping.
The mink and high dollar fox would pay your expenses easily....but the lowly possum, and coon paid the bills :)
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: GHRoberts on June 08, 2006, 07:01:48 PM
I am sure that most wanut is sold for the prices given, but most walnut is sold to large firms where one piece of hardwood is the same as another.

I perfer cherry over walnut but ...

I only buy logs - flitch sawn, 8/4, dried and 200bdft min from each log.

While most mills sell 8/4 lumber for under $3/bdft, I pay about $11. And I am willing to pay more.

While most of you seem to know the commercial market, it helps to know the speciallty markets also.

(I have driven 3000 miles round trip to pay $25/bdft for 100bdft of walnut.)

Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: rebocardo on June 09, 2006, 07:00:42 PM
Saw an ad in my local AG newspaper, lady said for the black walnut, four feet off the ground where it splits into a Y, each part of the Y is "5 1/2" wide. Then "taking offers". I hope it is feet and not inches, because maybe I will take some offers on my " 12" " firewood  I have drying :D
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: solodan on June 10, 2006, 02:09:57 PM
I still think that what tlooney is talking about is claro walnut, since he is in Oregon, not the black walnut that our east coast members are so familiar with.  :)
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: Redonthehead on June 10, 2006, 10:32:33 PM
tlooney: 

I think you should have looked him in the eye and said " you misunderstood, if you pay ME $150 I'll haul the logs out of your yard for you"
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: tlooney on June 12, 2006, 12:27:21 PM
Just to let everyone know I went by the gents place yesterday and the logs were gone  :o. I guess someone bested my offer. Maybe they offered him $200. and he thought a bird in hand is better than two in the bush and took it. Who knows.
Title: Re: black walnut logs
Post by: dad2nine on June 16, 2006, 10:56:52 AM
Maybe he got $9000.00 too, you may never know.  For what it's worth, I just purchased 2) 12' x 26" dia black walnut logs for $100.00. Only reason I did is because he tossed in 6 - 16' x 12+++" dia eastern red cedar logs too. Both walnut are straight and don't appear to have any defects.  I plan on sawing them up this weekend... I'll know better when I open them up.

Your right people see walnut and go crazy, they are blinded by the $$$ signs.

right across the road there are two black walnut tress that I'm going to help take down. I don't mind working to help a neibor out and he doesn't mind giving me the trees.

The truth of the matter is around here black walnut is getting hard to find. And the wood workers in the area are willing to pay upwards of $5.00 a BF for good clean kiln dried walnut lumber... So I can aford to pay a little for black walnut.

Just my 2cents...