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Author Topic: Machine for S4S and T&G?  (Read 2475 times)

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Offline uler3161

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 05:52:13 pm »
I assume by 2", you mean 1 1/2" instead of full 2". If so, it is doable on the Woodmaster, but I wouldn't recommend it.  I ran a small amount and my observations are:

1. 1 1/2" is the absolute max thickness. I doubt you can get much more.
2. Prior to receiving the bits, I would have thought they would give me a 1/2" x 1/4" tounge. It does 1/4" x 1/4", which I don't really care for.
3. I found that I had to set the router bit farther out of the collet than I thought was safe. There was just not enough router adjustment and/or shank length.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 11:13:36 pm »
So for an S4S, which machine will flatten and edge?  I understand the old Martin T90 would do a good job but they are out of production.

Is there any machine for $15K that will flatten and straighten as well as the conventional sequence of joint, plane and then straight line rip?


 
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Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 11:19:21 pm »
I 2nd Longtime Lurker's advice.  Stay away from XL moulders. The side heads are directly across from each other and the fences are crazy short making it very difficult to get anything straight. Also there is no vertical adjustment on the side heads.

Paulson made a moulder that is slightly bigger than the XL but had most of the bugs worked out. A nice little machine. It's also belt drive so easy to convert to lineshaft or to single phase. I have operated a half dozen or so Paulson moulders and they all were sweet little machines. Used prices $3,000 - $7,000

Weinig is another belt driven moulder that is one of the better moulders ever made.  It's a German machine. Also belt driven and and has power feed from one end to the other. used prices start at around $5,000 and the sky is the limit.  I've had the privilege to operate two of these fine machines. One had 4 heads and the other 6. On the 6 headed machine we would feed a 3/8" X 2" piece in and eight 3/16" dowels came out the other.

SCMI also makes a decent looking machine and although I have never run one, they look like a Weinig clone.  And speaking of Weinig clone, Wood-Mizer used to sell a moulder that looked very much like a Weinig.
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Offline redprospector

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2017, 12:17:24 am »
Vonnegut was another good old machine.
I missed one that was an 8" machine not long ago. I just couldn't take the time off to go make the deal.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Offline Quebecnewf

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2017, 04:29:08 am »
I am S4S all my 2x4 and 2x6 now. This is all softwood . I run a bit of an odd setup but it works for me . I have an old 15" single sided electric planer made in Taiwan. I pass all my lumber through this to get the thickness consistent . I then use an old 3 sided Poitras planer with a 13hp gas engine to finish . It turns out real nice 2x4 and 2x6 . Very smooth and the edges are crisp and sharp.


This is not a fast setup the Poitras runs at a 102 pcs of 2x4x8 per hour. It works for my small setup. The 2x material sells really well now compared to rough and at a better price.

Quebecnewf

Offline Don P

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2017, 06:07:14 am »
I ran an SCMI throughfeed planer/molder, Italian/Rockwell machine. A nice throughfeed. It was pre computer but setups were no more than a half hour or so. It had a longbed jointer table infeed to the bottom head first. It had adjustable light hold in and an adjustable horizontal fence on the first head as well. That bottom head had an edge jointing cutter so as the board left the first head it had been faced and jointed... within light reason. I did blow the brass jackscrew nuts on that practically new machine feeding poorly thicknessed lumber through it. After that if the wood was seriously thick and thin I would preplane it but that was fairly rare.

A large local contractor helped finance the machine, running custom trim for him was priority. We also ran cabinet and furniture stock for our shop and several other cabinet shops. Another good hit was reproducing trim for local historic register homes. We paid off the 5 year note in 2. The boss would say you feed dimes into the machine and dollars come out.

I've run an old Berlin pushfeed that was a brute, slow setups but it worked. I have an old Vonnegut 6x12 pushfeed, neat machine but too far gone. If anyone needs parts before I scrap it holler.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2017, 07:21:07 am »
Reading all the responses....onsite for a timberframe raising today.  I'll still check here at night.  Got an offer from someone on here to look at a logosol after I get home in a couple weeks.  If nothing else, I'll at least get a little familiar with what they offer and the pro's and cons.
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Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2017, 07:43:20 am »
Yellowhammer has a very good point.  You will need something to flatten and straighten the lumber.  A jointer + a Woodmaster should get you by.  The Woodmaster has a gang rip saw option.

Also, T&G can be run on the Woodmaster without the 3 sider if a jig is used.  Pictures:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,92381.msg1422056.html#msg1422056

From what I've seen, you would need to at least skip plane to get dimensions close enough for the Logosol etc. to be happy.
http://timbergreenforestry.com/Making%20Flooring.html


I do beg forgiveness for my sin of suggesting a XL.   :)  My thought was that for a small run it would be better than running multiple times through a shaper, but I've never actually been around an XL in person.


Real question would be volume.  Is this just for lumber for your dream house or do you plan for this to be an add on enterprise? My opinions are geared toward the former. 

Next would be how much space do you have?  A Logosol or Woodmaster can be happy enough on casters.  The Wenigs, Vonneguts, Mattisons, etc. really need a dedicated spot.

Weight can be overcome even without equipment.  I moved my big moulder with nothing more than hydraulic jacks, chain, timbers, a come along, and pipe. It weights close to 8k Lbs.

Best of luck with the raising!
Lucas 6-13+slabber, Mr. Sawmill bandmill, orange chainsaws, JD SSL, Case Backhoe, farm tractors, trailers, and 150ish acres of trees.  Fledgling woodshop with CNC router, laser engraver, Woodmaster 712, and a Berlin 108 moulder (project).  Oh, and a lovely (patient) wife and four offbearers.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2017, 08:15:41 am »
Well, I can't find the Woodmaster flyer advertising their new 4 head moulder, sometimes I throw that stuff away so I am not tempted!! :D :D  I don't remember the exact price but it was under 20k.  It was three phase though. 

A note on ripping with the Woodmaster 718/725:  you are limited on stock thickness to about 1 1/2" or 1 5/8".  The biggest blade you can put on it is 6.5" diameter without serious modification.  Any bigger and the blade tips will hit the feed rollers.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 09:13:05 am »
Well, I can't find the Woodmaster flyer advertising their new 4 head moulder, sometimes I throw that stuff away so I am not tempted!! :D :D  I don't remember the exact price but it was under 20k.  It was three phase though. 

A note on ripping with the Woodmaster 718/725:  you are limited on stock thickness to about 1 1/2" or 1 5/8".  The biggest blade you can put on it is 6.5" diameter without serious modification.  Any bigger and the blade tips will hit the feed rollers.

Is this what your looking for ?

https://www.woodmastertools.com/725

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Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2017, 10:10:50 am »
Nope.  I just got the flyer in my email.  I'd post it, but I'm not sure they want it overly public yet since I can't find any info searching online...

It's a WM-4000.  (WM for Woodmaster).  Kind of unfortunate name considering WoodMizer has a 4000 model and Woodmaster stoves has a 4400 model...

It is available for single phase (70 Amp) or 3 phase.  Looks like 15 total HP.  5 on top, 3 each on bottom and sides and 3/4 for feed.  Up to 16" wide and 4" thick. 

Lookswise, it reminds me of a large laser engraver with a top that hinges up. 

Weightwise, it is in line with Logosol and Baker 412.

I'm intrigued.   :)
Lucas 6-13+slabber, Mr. Sawmill bandmill, orange chainsaws, JD SSL, Case Backhoe, farm tractors, trailers, and 150ish acres of trees.  Fledgling woodshop with CNC router, laser engraver, Woodmaster 712, and a Berlin 108 moulder (project).  Oh, and a lovely (patient) wife and four offbearers.

Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2017, 10:16:37 am »
Here ya go... I gave them a call and had them email me a spec sheet on it.  It must be pretty new, he said they are still developing spiral heads for it.  Best give them a call for more info.  Seems like it would fit the bill, but keep in mind I know NOTHING about 4 head molders.  I was wrong, it looks like you can get this in single phase.  So a new machine, single phase for under 20k.

Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2017, 10:25:06 am »
Any moulder that is worth its salt will do all the straightening you need unless you start with some really wonky lumber.  Machines such as Woodmaster are not really moulders, they're nothing more than single headed planers that have been adapted to make moulding.  With these machines you need 2 flat/straight sides before you turn the machine on.  Woodmaster is a good machine but you have to understand its limitations.

Brad says he wants to do S4S and T&G in one step and in my mind this removes the Woodmaster class of moulders from the list of options.

My 2 worth.  :D
1992 LT40HD

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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2017, 10:44:02 am »
I agree if we limit that observation to the Woodmaster 712/718/725 series.  They are single head machines.  This new WM4000 appears to be a true four head machine.

Offline Will_Johnson

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2017, 11:19:59 am »
The Woodmaster 4000 is a 4-Head Machine. It will surface or mold four sides in one pass. Available in 3-Phase and Single Phase. Made here in Kansas City. Marketing materials are definitely very basic at this point. But we are happy to send info on the machine in the mail or by email. Just email info@woodmastertools.com. There's also basic info and images on our Facebook page.

For any molding operation, whether one, two, three or four-sided (which includes T&G), material needs to be fairly straight and fairly consistent. That's a limitation of all molding machines I know of, from the most basic single-sided machine to $100,000 Weinigs. You can't push through pieces of widely varying width or thickness -- or with sweeps, twists or bows -- and expect perfect molding to come out of the other end.

That doesn't mean material needs to be straight-lined but it does mean within about 1/16". We do have some folks using dried, rough-cut material to make flooring with the machine, like you'd get off of a sawmill. They just have to cull out bad boards (sweep, twist, bow) as they run the material.

Offline redprospector

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2017, 06:22:33 pm »
Molders are the same as sawmills in one respect.
Junk in, junk out.
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Offline Brad_S.

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 07:24:00 pm »
 I run a Logosol PH260 with a rotary phase converter.  I found a Taiwanese made double sided planer that I use to presize my blanks for thickness and I use the sawmill to straight edge my stock.  Feeding the molder without presizing was a nightmare despite fairly consistent lumber.
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Offline woodworker9

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2017, 09:24:14 am »
Brad

I see you are in Joliet, Illinois.  I am up in Crystal Lake, not too far away from you.  If you ever want to take a run up and get a crash course in 3 phase machinery, and getting set up, I'd be happy to show you the ropes, in person.  I have a 20 hp and  10 hp rotary phase converters, as well as several VFD's operating machines in my woodshop and metalworking shop, and would be happy to spend some time answering questions and showing you the ropes.



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Offline Will_Johnson

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2017, 10:18:37 am »
As Jeff says, you should always look at all options. Used equipment is always something you should consider. As with any choice, there are up-sides and down-sides to both sides of the equation.

With that said, I respectfully but strongly disagree with Jeff's implication that Woodmaster (or, for that matter, Logosol) equipment is not made to run "all day, every day." We have thousands of owners who do just that. The 4000 is a new machine in the line but we've put our nearly 100 years of institutional knowledge into making it a machine that will run hard and last for years.

I would never claim that the 4000 will "run circles" around the machines Jeff mentions, because I don't have first-hand knowledge of those machines. Nor, I suspect, does Jeff have first-hand knowledge of the Woodmaster 4000. What I can tell you is that the 4000 will run material as fast as a couple of reasonably healthy and hard-working guys can keep up with.

Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2017, 10:24:39 am »
He has 2 different 8" Mattison molders running full time in his shop, and he also has a smaller Woods for sale right now for cheap.

Sounds like "Panda Dan".  If so, it looks like a good machine, but Brad would like to run up to 10" wide (Post #5).  Dan's Woods moulder will only go 4".   :(
Lucas 6-13+slabber, Mr. Sawmill bandmill, orange chainsaws, JD SSL, Case Backhoe, farm tractors, trailers, and 150ish acres of trees.  Fledgling woodshop with CNC router, laser engraver, Woodmaster 712, and a Berlin 108 moulder (project).  Oh, and a lovely (patient) wife and four offbearers.