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Author Topic: Machine for S4S and T&G?  (Read 2481 times)

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Offline Brad_bb

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Machine for S4S and T&G?
« on: November 05, 2017, 09:32:17 am »
So I don't know how many of you make finished S4S boards but it's the next logical step.  In my search for a possible machine to make 2x T&G  I came across the Logosol 360 and 260.  It got me to thinking it would also be handy for just making S4S boards if it works right.  Doing both S4S and T&G from rough sawn lumber, I want as little handling as possible and therefore looking to see if a 4 or 5 head molder is the answer. 

Besides the "one step at a time" method, do any of you make S4S or T&G in one operation and if so what machine are you using?  What machine would you recommend? I'm talking a new machine.  Used would only be a possibility if you had someone to show you how to run and work on it.  Also, is it possible to get such capability under $20K?
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Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 10:24:26 am »
Brad, I don't do it any more, but from 1973 - 1989 that is what I did 5 - 6 days a week. Probably a good 4 - 5 head moulder would do what you need.  I would not buy new unless I planned to run the machine at least 3 day a week, all day.  Check out moulders on our forum sponser's site, Sawmill Exchange.

https://sawmillexchange.com

As far as learning to operate a moulder, I'd be glad to be your consultant at the current forestry forum rate. Heck, I've been looking for an excuse for a road trip anyway.

What are the demensions of the finished product you have in mind?
How much s4s and T&G do you plan to make?
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 11:07:07 am »
Darrel, the problem is...I don't know what I should be looking for (in the sawmill exchange).  I see the moulders, but what capacity do I shoot for?  What to do some of the terms mean like "lineshaft"? 

Maybe we can narrow this down by electrical requirements?  I do not have 3 phase in my new shop.  I do have 220V and I'll have to double check the capacity.  Currently I have a 220V 80A outlet for bandsaw mill electric motor and another for my woodmizer beam planer. I have a similar outlet for my welder and another for my compressor.  I have my electrician there this week installing lighting.  He put the service in and wired the building.  I know you make 3 phase with devices I've heard of called a rotophase?  This week would be a good time to figure electrical requirements out - what I can do, to help narrow down what machine I can run.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2017, 11:27:15 am »
I run a M800 Pinhero planer. It can do up to a 8X20 timber on all four sides or up to 25" on top and bottom. I like it and the product it puts out but it is 3 phase. I think it is a 93 model machine. I wish it was a little newer and had the digital read outs on all of the settings but it is just fine for what I do. I can do T&G, S4S, V-groove or D-log siding with a ship lap on it. As for the smaller machines I can't offer any advice on them.
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Offline PAmizerman

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2017, 11:44:26 am »
My dad has a logosol molder.  It's kind of a pain to set up. And you had better have a good dust collection system or it will just plug up and the feed rollers start slipping. If you don't get the fences absolutely perfect it will end snipe. My experience with it wasn't that great. But it is the only single phase machine I'm aware of besides the Williams and Hussy. I'll talk to my dad to see if he has had any luck with it since i worked with him last.
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2017, 01:23:46 pm »
For clarity I intend to use it for 1x and 2x material with a maximum likely of 3".  I would like the capability of widths up to 10". 
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 03:02:33 pm »
The little bit I've visited with Logosol owners, they sound like a fussy machine, and your material you're feeding needs to be straightlined and sorted for thickness, because they don't have enough power to take a lot of material off. I was going to bring a guy with a Logosol some pine I wanted made into wp4, he said he was happier if my sawing was consistent, to only gave it 1/8 thicker than final dimension. I will also say I've seen some decent looking material come off of them. Let me express it another way- I have a 6 way dozer blade for my skid steer. It is fussy and has taken me a long time to get where I can do good work with it, but I wouldn't want to be without it. If a dozer operator tried to use my machine, they'd give up in frustration after about 2 minutes. Kinda like a guy that has run a big 5 or 6 head milder would likely be very frustrated with a Logosol or other small machine. However, I think that with patience and knowing the limitations of the machine, they can produce some quality product.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 03:07:44 pm »
Moulders and 4 siders tend to be slightly different beasts.

4 siders like jakes pinhero or my klein are designed to handle big lumps of wood but the profile options are limited as most will only take straight knives on the top and bottom.

Moulders have a lot less size capacity but can do more with it profile wise.

Heads = speed. The more heads you have the less material you need to remove with each head. That also equates to quality of finish.

I looked over the logosol machines a while back and think they're great within their limitations.  Price wise they're a new machine for about the price of a decent second hand wadkin or weinig and they appear well made.

The limitation is the 4 heads and rhe capacity of those heads. My gut told me I would to double pass to get my desired finish on T&G etc... once to s4s and once to shape it. But I would expect that on a 4 header regardless of manufacturer. Where the likes of a weinig with 4 heads would beat it would be on deep profiles like cornice and crown molding where there's a lot of material to remove... HP per head matters then.

For single pass work you want a 5 or 6 header. You ain't gonna find that single phase. And as mentioned yoy need serious dust extraction and that will be three phase too.

The one thing to remember with all this is that a moulder will not conduct miracles. If you feed bent timber inti a short bed machine you'll get bent timber back out. So straightening is important and that may require2 passes anyway even with a 6 header.

Older machine often get sold with their tooling and that can be a great help. A  good collection of knives can add up to a lot of money.

Edit: The only other thing ill add is that of all the equipment I own its the kilns and the moulder that are the most profitable. It takes time to build that side of the business but it's time well spent.  Too many people think it's just an add on but there's a reason being a wood machinist is a separate trade and they get more pay than sawmill hands... it requires precision. There's a lot of guys think a moulder is just there to make it pretty and fix the green mill problem of badly sawn boards but all Moulders are fussy and require constant tinkering.  4 siders not so much but again it's back to the limitations they come with.
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Offline PAmizerman

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 03:43:09 pm »
I agree with long time lurker 100% well said
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Offline campwags

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 04:57:45 pm »
Have you looked at the WoodMaster 3 sided planers?  I use mine to make 2" T&G and ship-lap siding. They are very flexible machines that can do rip sawing, planing and sanding.  They are made by our sponsor   at TimberKing.
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Offline WLC

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 06:17:35 pm »
Have you looked at the WoodMaster 3 sided planers?  I use mine to make 2" T&G and ship-lap siding. They are very flexible machines that can do rip sawing, planing and sanding.  They are made by our sponsor   at TimberKing.

While I would love a Logosol I can't justify the cost for my use/needs. I never plan on doing any commercial sawing or associated tasks.  I've been looking really hard at the woodmaster machines.  While not the fastest, nor, I imagine, "the best", I Think one would suit my needs just fine.  I've got lots more time than money and a woodmaster fits those parameters.

Campwags, which model do you have?  My biggest question on the Woodmaster is how much snipe do they leave?  Any feedback on them would be welcome.
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Offline thechknhwk

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 08:18:09 pm »
Logosol 260 won't do it in one pass, you'll be pre-planing and straightening all your lumber.  The 360 might, I think it's 5 head?  Baker makes a logosol clone, but with better motors, I think they run 7.5hp on the top and bottom, and then 5hp on the sides, but you'll still have to straighten everything.

Offline thechknhwk

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 08:20:20 pm »
If I could make a reasonable upgrade I would go with the baker and run a phase converter.  I think it would have enough power to run some byrd heads in the top and bottom.

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 08:27:56 pm »
I took some 1 inch to be planed .3 phase machine with removable heads . this thing is about 4 feet wide 8 feet long . I watched it run 80 feet per min on 4 side 60 ft. on TG and 30 ft. on flooring . I wish I would have got the name .
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 08:31:23 am »
About 2 months ago, being a Woodmaster owner/customer I got a sales flyer from Woodmaster and in it they were advertising a brand new 4 head moulder at an introductory price.  This wasn't like their existing machines, it was a brand new complete new design.  I'll see if I can find the flyer.  I can't find any mention of this online though.  It might be what you are looking for, I would give them a call for more information if I were you.

Offline RIMwood

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 11:38:58 am »
I have a Logosol PH260, and yes it does 2" T&G in one pass.
Currently working 1000 sf of 2" x 10" x 16' Ash, smooth one side and bead board the other side for a timber frame floor. The bead board will be exposed on the under side showing between the beams. I milled the Ash to 7/4 x 11", kiln dried in my solar kiln down to 8%, then straight lined it on the saw mill to 10", then put it through the PH260 for a finish board width 9.5"  x 1.5". I am having some problems with stress in the Ash logs, some of the boards are milling inconsistently on the thickness. For those I do need to pre plane to take the highs off, but normally pre planing is not needed. Before the ash run I did 1000 sf of 1" x 12" popular bead board which ran through the PH260 beautifully no pre plaining. I bought the PH260 used, got a great deal under $5000 with extras, but I did have to install a 3 phase converter, and a large chip extractor.







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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 01:42:24 pm »
You scored at that price!
Too many irons in the fire

Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 01:45:51 pm »
A used moulder is not a bad option.  A Stetson Ross/Smithway XL aren't overly heavy and have relatively low HP.  They also have a reputation of being a little extra fussy to setup...  Big old moulders (like I have) are pretty cheap when found, but can be projects unto themselves (like mine is), and often difficult to sell.  There are a lot of guys here and on OWWM that will steer a person in the right direction.

The biggest downside of the old moulders, is the setups take longer and the knives are expensive compared to newer designs.  I plan to set mine up for flooring and use my Woodmasters (712 & 718) for moulding.  If business allows, I would like to get a Baker 412, Logosol, or perhaps the new 4 sided Woodmaster I keep being teased about.   ;) 

Lineshaft means no motor.  It's set up to be run off a belt from another power source.  Used to be waterwheels, steam engines, and such, but could be anything.  I'm also limited to single phase, so I like lineshaft as I can run it off the tractor, stationary engine, or electric motor. 

However, I wouldn't be afraid of 3 phase at the right price.  They can be powered using a generator (with engine or tractor driven), rotary converter, or static converter. 

For what you are doing, I would strongly consider a good jointer and good shaper table with feeder.  Easy to obtain at a reasonable price.  Easier to setup.  Easy to resell.  Just more handling...
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 03:07:06 pm »
Yeah... nah.... id stay right away from the kikes of an old Stetson Ross etc.

One of the best bits of advice I never followed was " buy a 60k machine that could be run by a 5k a year man, not a 5k machine that took a 60k a year man to run it."

So I got an old Robinson which is that same generation of equipment - working antique.  Those things were designed to be operated by a machinist. Theyre finicky, setup times are long, the beds are usually half worn out, and every time you turn around you seem to be fixing something. Great when they're running and will do the same job as a new one but not at all suited for short runs.

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Offline campwags

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 04:59:46 pm »
I have the WoodMaster 718 with the 3 sided molding option.  I am using the spiral cutter-head and not get snipe.  The trick I am told is to run your boards one after the other to avoid snipe.
I have not had mine for long, but I have a lot of 1 X 6 pine T&G for  interior siding to make soon.  I'll take some photos and post soon.
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 05:52:13 pm »
I assume by 2", you mean 1 1/2" instead of full 2". If so, it is doable on the Woodmaster, but I wouldn't recommend it.  I ran a small amount and my observations are:

1. 1 1/2" is the absolute max thickness. I doubt you can get much more.
2. Prior to receiving the bits, I would have thought they would give me a 1/2" x 1/4" tounge. It does 1/4" x 1/4", which I don't really care for.
3. I found that I had to set the router bit farther out of the collet than I thought was safe. There was just not enough router adjustment and/or shank length.
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 11:13:36 pm »
So for an S4S, which machine will flatten and edge?  I understand the old Martin T90 would do a good job but they are out of production.

Is there any machine for $15K that will flatten and straighten as well as the conventional sequence of joint, plane and then straight line rip?


 
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Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 11:19:21 pm »
I 2nd Longtime Lurker's advice.  Stay away from XL moulders. The side heads are directly across from each other and the fences are crazy short making it very difficult to get anything straight. Also there is no vertical adjustment on the side heads.

Paulson made a moulder that is slightly bigger than the XL but had most of the bugs worked out. A nice little machine. It's also belt drive so easy to convert to lineshaft or to single phase. I have operated a half dozen or so Paulson moulders and they all were sweet little machines. Used prices $3,000 - $7,000

Weinig is another belt driven moulder that is one of the better moulders ever made.  It's a German machine. Also belt driven and and has power feed from one end to the other. used prices start at around $5,000 and the sky is the limit.  I've had the privilege to operate two of these fine machines. One had 4 heads and the other 6. On the 6 headed machine we would feed a 3/8" X 2" piece in and eight 3/16" dowels came out the other.

SCMI also makes a decent looking machine and although I have never run one, they look like a Weinig clone.  And speaking of Weinig clone, Wood-Mizer used to sell a moulder that looked very much like a Weinig.
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Offline redprospector

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2017, 12:17:24 am »
Vonnegut was another good old machine.
I missed one that was an 8" machine not long ago. I just couldn't take the time off to go make the deal.
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Offline Quebecnewf

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2017, 04:29:08 am »
I am S4S all my 2x4 and 2x6 now. This is all softwood . I run a bit of an odd setup but it works for me . I have an old 15" single sided electric planer made in Taiwan. I pass all my lumber through this to get the thickness consistent . I then use an old 3 sided Poitras planer with a 13hp gas engine to finish . It turns out real nice 2x4 and 2x6 . Very smooth and the edges are crisp and sharp.


This is not a fast setup the Poitras runs at a 102 pcs of 2x4x8 per hour. It works for my small setup. The 2x material sells really well now compared to rough and at a better price.

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Offline Don P

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2017, 06:07:14 am »
I ran an SCMI throughfeed planer/molder, Italian/Rockwell machine. A nice throughfeed. It was pre computer but setups were no more than a half hour or so. It had a longbed jointer table infeed to the bottom head first. It had adjustable light hold in and an adjustable horizontal fence on the first head as well. That bottom head had an edge jointing cutter so as the board left the first head it had been faced and jointed... within light reason. I did blow the brass jackscrew nuts on that practically new machine feeding poorly thicknessed lumber through it. After that if the wood was seriously thick and thin I would preplane it but that was fairly rare.

A large local contractor helped finance the machine, running custom trim for him was priority. We also ran cabinet and furniture stock for our shop and several other cabinet shops. Another good hit was reproducing trim for local historic register homes. We paid off the 5 year note in 2. The boss would say you feed dimes into the machine and dollars come out.

I've run an old Berlin pushfeed that was a brute, slow setups but it worked. I have an old Vonnegut 6x12 pushfeed, neat machine but too far gone. If anyone needs parts before I scrap it holler.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2017, 07:21:07 am »
Reading all the responses....onsite for a timberframe raising today.  I'll still check here at night.  Got an offer from someone on here to look at a logosol after I get home in a couple weeks.  If nothing else, I'll at least get a little familiar with what they offer and the pro's and cons.
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2017, 07:43:20 am »
Yellowhammer has a very good point.  You will need something to flatten and straighten the lumber.  A jointer + a Woodmaster should get you by.  The Woodmaster has a gang rip saw option.

Also, T&G can be run on the Woodmaster without the 3 sider if a jig is used.  Pictures:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,92381.msg1422056.html#msg1422056

From what I've seen, you would need to at least skip plane to get dimensions close enough for the Logosol etc. to be happy.
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I do beg forgiveness for my sin of suggesting a XL.   :)  My thought was that for a small run it would be better than running multiple times through a shaper, but I've never actually been around an XL in person.


Real question would be volume.  Is this just for lumber for your dream house or do you plan for this to be an add on enterprise? My opinions are geared toward the former. 

Next would be how much space do you have?  A Logosol or Woodmaster can be happy enough on casters.  The Wenigs, Vonneguts, Mattisons, etc. really need a dedicated spot.

Weight can be overcome even without equipment.  I moved my big moulder with nothing more than hydraulic jacks, chain, timbers, a come along, and pipe. It weights close to 8k Lbs.

Best of luck with the raising!
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2017, 08:15:41 am »
Well, I can't find the Woodmaster flyer advertising their new 4 head moulder, sometimes I throw that stuff away so I am not tempted!! :D :D  I don't remember the exact price but it was under 20k.  It was three phase though. 

A note on ripping with the Woodmaster 718/725:  you are limited on stock thickness to about 1 1/2" or 1 5/8".  The biggest blade you can put on it is 6.5" diameter without serious modification.  Any bigger and the blade tips will hit the feed rollers.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 09:13:05 am »
Well, I can't find the Woodmaster flyer advertising their new 4 head moulder, sometimes I throw that stuff away so I am not tempted!! :D :D  I don't remember the exact price but it was under 20k.  It was three phase though. 

A note on ripping with the Woodmaster 718/725:  you are limited on stock thickness to about 1 1/2" or 1 5/8".  The biggest blade you can put on it is 6.5" diameter without serious modification.  Any bigger and the blade tips will hit the feed rollers.

Is this what your looking for ?

https://www.woodmastertools.com/725

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Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2017, 10:10:50 am »
Nope.  I just got the flyer in my email.  I'd post it, but I'm not sure they want it overly public yet since I can't find any info searching online...

It's a WM-4000.  (WM for Woodmaster).  Kind of unfortunate name considering WoodMizer has a 4000 model and Woodmaster stoves has a 4400 model...

It is available for single phase (70 Amp) or 3 phase.  Looks like 15 total HP.  5 on top, 3 each on bottom and sides and 3/4 for feed.  Up to 16" wide and 4" thick. 

Lookswise, it reminds me of a large laser engraver with a top that hinges up. 

Weightwise, it is in line with Logosol and Baker 412.

I'm intrigued.   :)
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2017, 10:16:37 am »
Here ya go... I gave them a call and had them email me a spec sheet on it.  It must be pretty new, he said they are still developing spiral heads for it.  Best give them a call for more info.  Seems like it would fit the bill, but keep in mind I know NOTHING about 4 head molders.  I was wrong, it looks like you can get this in single phase.  So a new machine, single phase for under 20k.

Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2017, 10:25:06 am »
Any moulder that is worth its salt will do all the straightening you need unless you start with some really wonky lumber.  Machines such as Woodmaster are not really moulders, they're nothing more than single headed planers that have been adapted to make moulding.  With these machines you need 2 flat/straight sides before you turn the machine on.  Woodmaster is a good machine but you have to understand its limitations.

Brad says he wants to do S4S and T&G in one step and in my mind this removes the Woodmaster class of moulders from the list of options.

My 2 worth.  :D
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2017, 10:44:02 am »
I agree if we limit that observation to the Woodmaster 712/718/725 series.  They are single head machines.  This new WM4000 appears to be a true four head machine.

Offline Will_Johnson

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2017, 11:19:59 am »
The Woodmaster 4000 is a 4-Head Machine. It will surface or mold four sides in one pass. Available in 3-Phase and Single Phase. Made here in Kansas City. Marketing materials are definitely very basic at this point. But we are happy to send info on the machine in the mail or by email. Just email info@woodmastertools.com. There's also basic info and images on our Facebook page.

For any molding operation, whether one, two, three or four-sided (which includes T&G), material needs to be fairly straight and fairly consistent. That's a limitation of all molding machines I know of, from the most basic single-sided machine to $100,000 Weinigs. You can't push through pieces of widely varying width or thickness -- or with sweeps, twists or bows -- and expect perfect molding to come out of the other end.

That doesn't mean material needs to be straight-lined but it does mean within about 1/16". We do have some folks using dried, rough-cut material to make flooring with the machine, like you'd get off of a sawmill. They just have to cull out bad boards (sweep, twist, bow) as they run the material.

Offline redprospector

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2017, 06:22:33 pm »
Molders are the same as sawmills in one respect.
Junk in, junk out.
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Offline Brad_S.

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 07:24:00 pm »
 I run a Logosol PH260 with a rotary phase converter.  I found a Taiwanese made double sided planer that I use to presize my blanks for thickness and I use the sawmill to straight edge my stock.  Feeding the molder without presizing was a nightmare despite fairly consistent lumber.
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Offline woodworker9

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2017, 09:24:14 am »
Brad

I see you are in Joliet, Illinois.  I am up in Crystal Lake, not too far away from you.  If you ever want to take a run up and get a crash course in 3 phase machinery, and getting set up, I'd be happy to show you the ropes, in person.  I have a 20 hp and  10 hp rotary phase converters, as well as several VFD's operating machines in my woodshop and metalworking shop, and would be happy to spend some time answering questions and showing you the ropes.



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Offline Will_Johnson

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2017, 10:18:37 am »
As Jeff says, you should always look at all options. Used equipment is always something you should consider. As with any choice, there are up-sides and down-sides to both sides of the equation.

With that said, I respectfully but strongly disagree with Jeff's implication that Woodmaster (or, for that matter, Logosol) equipment is not made to run "all day, every day." We have thousands of owners who do just that. The 4000 is a new machine in the line but we've put our nearly 100 years of institutional knowledge into making it a machine that will run hard and last for years.

I would never claim that the 4000 will "run circles" around the machines Jeff mentions, because I don't have first-hand knowledge of those machines. Nor, I suspect, does Jeff have first-hand knowledge of the Woodmaster 4000. What I can tell you is that the 4000 will run material as fast as a couple of reasonably healthy and hard-working guys can keep up with.

Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2017, 10:24:39 am »
He has 2 different 8" Mattison molders running full time in his shop, and he also has a smaller Woods for sale right now for cheap.

Sounds like "Panda Dan".  If so, it looks like a good machine, but Brad would like to run up to 10" wide (Post #5).  Dan's Woods moulder will only go 4".   :(
Lucas 6-13+slabber, Mr. Sawmill bandmill, orange chainsaws, JD SSL, Case Backhoe, farm tractors, trailers, and 150ish acres of trees.  Fledgling woodshop with CNC router, laser engraver, Woodmaster 712, and a Berlin 108 moulder (project).  Oh, and a lovely (patient) wife and four offbearers.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2017, 06:58:29 am »
Tkehl, I "would like" but not a hard requirement on the width.  If I could at least machine 8" wide material that would work too.  4" wide is no good, because 2x6 would definitely be a requirement, and 2x8 finished material would be a want.

Jeff, thank you so much for your offer.  I will take you up on that when we can.

I'm going to get some education here before I make any decisions.  I have to consider my space availability in my mill shop(my woodmizer is inside) and how much real estate it would take up, and power requirements versus what's available.  I don't plan to make material day in and day out, but as my milled material air dries, I can run batches though as desired, making flooring, T&G, or S4S boards.  I have milled mostly beams up to now for building timber frame(for me).  But I'm planning to do more T&G and S4S in the near future.  I don't mill full time.  On average 3 days a week.  Some weeks more,  some weeks when have to be away from home, less.  It's just me and my buddy John and I'll be losing him after next summer.
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2017, 08:18:32 am »
How easy is it to S4S random width lumber with a molder? 
Surfacing various widths of stock is something we routinely do to reduce waste.  Or do you surface top and bottom, and only one edge?
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Offline TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2017, 08:56:44 am »
They really won't handle random width.  Better to group by size.

I could see surfacing 2 sides pretty easy.  I could also potentially see surfacing 3 sides with the right machine, but mine wouldn't like it.  Would need the right feed rollers etc.
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2017, 01:25:59 pm »
Ive been known to skip plane 3 sides random width through a throughfeed machine... park the left cutterhead out wide and let the rights do a jointing pass. Obviously therr are limits to how much jointing occurs before the workpiece kicks sideways but it's okay.

Even with digital sizing you don't want to be changing sizes any more than you have to, so batch run is still better. How random is random? My material tends to only vary by shrinkage rate... we cut set sizes green to mould to set sizes dry.
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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2017, 09:12:29 pm »
As Jeff says, you should always look at all options. Used equipment is always something you should consider. As with any choice, there are up-sides and down-sides to both sides of the equation.

With that said, I respectfully but strongly disagree with Jeff's implication that Woodmaster (or, for that matter, Logosol) equipment is not made to run "all day, every day." We have thousands of owners who do just that. The 4000 is a new machine in the line but we've put our nearly 100 years of institutional knowledge into making it a machine that will run hard and last for years.

I would never claim that the 4000 will "run circles" around the machines Jeff mentions, because I don't have first-hand knowledge of those machines. Nor, I suspect, does Jeff have first-hand knowledge of the Woodmaster 4000. What I can tell you is that the 4000 will run material as fast as a couple of reasonably healthy and hard-working guys can keep up with.

Will

After reading your comments, and re-reading mine, I decided that I wasn't saying what I wanted to say, so I deleted most of the post.  No offense was ever intentionally intended.

Brad

If you ever want to take a ride up and learn about 3 phase, I'll be happy to spend some time with you.

I wasn't suggesting the 4" Woods that my friend has for sale as a solution to your problem, but just as an option to learn more about the vintage molders.  A lot of these vintage molders, like 8" Mattison's, sell frequently for a couple grand or less, but there is always a learning curve, and my experience with all my vintage machinery is that I just expect to take each and every one apart and do a full rebuild before putting them back into service.  That may or may not suit your needs or desires.

Cheers.
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Offline thechknhwk

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2017, 11:28:37 am »
Brad I'm sure you are already aware, but the logosol is rated up to 10" in width.  I find much over 8" however and the top planer head dust extraction plugs up.

Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 01:16:33 pm »
I sent for more information on the WM4000.  From the picture, and that is all the info they have on line, it looks very similar to the Logosol.  For me, a must have feature of a 4 head moulder is vertical adjustment for the side heads and horizontal adjustment for top and bottom. If it doesn't have both, I won't waste my time with it.  My reasoning is simple. I once operated a Stetson Ross XL that had neither and a setup that took an hour on the Vonegut, Mattson, Paulson or Weinig would take 3 or 4 on the XL.

Edit to add:  Even in a "hobby" shop where high production is not a goal, one has better ways to spend their time than fiddling around with frustrating setups that should be easy.
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2017, 06:16:39 am »
I just received the fold-out brochure in snail mail, it has a few more pictures and a bit more information on the machine.  It looks pretty attractive to me, but like I said before, I have no experience with 4 head molders. :D :D  Yellowhammer needs to buy one and report back ;D ;D