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Author Topic: Machine for S4S and T&G?  (Read 2633 times)

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Offline Brad_bb

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Machine for S4S and T&G?
« on: November 05, 2017, 09:32:17 am »
So I don't know how many of you make finished S4S boards but it's the next logical step.  In my search for a possible machine to make 2x T&G  I came across the Logosol 360 and 260.  It got me to thinking it would also be handy for just making S4S boards if it works right.  Doing both S4S and T&G from rough sawn lumber, I want as little handling as possible and therefore looking to see if a 4 or 5 head molder is the answer. 

Besides the "one step at a time" method, do any of you make S4S or T&G in one operation and if so what machine are you using?  What machine would you recommend? I'm talking a new machine.  Used would only be a possibility if you had someone to show you how to run and work on it.  Also, is it possible to get such capability under $20K?
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Offline Darrel

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 10:24:26 am »
Brad, I don't do it any more, but from 1973 - 1989 that is what I did 5 - 6 days a week. Probably a good 4 - 5 head moulder would do what you need.  I would not buy new unless I planned to run the machine at least 3 day a week, all day.  Check out moulders on our forum sponser's site, Sawmill Exchange.

https://sawmillexchange.com

As far as learning to operate a moulder, I'd be glad to be your consultant at the current forestry forum rate. Heck, I've been looking for an excuse for a road trip anyway.

What are the demensions of the finished product you have in mind?
How much s4s and T&G do you plan to make?
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 11:07:07 am »
Darrel, the problem is...I don't know what I should be looking for (in the sawmill exchange).  I see the moulders, but what capacity do I shoot for?  What to do some of the terms mean like "lineshaft"? 

Maybe we can narrow this down by electrical requirements?  I do not have 3 phase in my new shop.  I do have 220V and I'll have to double check the capacity.  Currently I have a 220V 80A outlet for bandsaw mill electric motor and another for my woodmizer beam planer. I have a similar outlet for my welder and another for my compressor.  I have my electrician there this week installing lighting.  He put the service in and wired the building.  I know you make 3 phase with devices I've heard of called a rotophase?  This week would be a good time to figure electrical requirements out - what I can do, to help narrow down what machine I can run.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2017, 11:27:15 am »
I run a M800 Pinhero planer. It can do up to a 8X20 timber on all four sides or up to 25" on top and bottom. I like it and the product it puts out but it is 3 phase. I think it is a 93 model machine. I wish it was a little newer and had the digital read outs on all of the settings but it is just fine for what I do. I can do T&G, S4S, V-groove or D-log siding with a ship lap on it. As for the smaller machines I can't offer any advice on them.
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Offline PAmizerman

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2017, 11:44:26 am »
My dad has a logosol molder.  It's kind of a pain to set up. And you had better have a good dust collection system or it will just plug up and the feed rollers start slipping. If you don't get the fences absolutely perfect it will end snipe. My experience with it wasn't that great. But it is the only single phase machine I'm aware of besides the Williams and Hussy. I'll talk to my dad to see if he has had any luck with it since i worked with him last.
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2017, 01:23:46 pm »
For clarity I intend to use it for 1x and 2x material with a maximum likely of 3".  I would like the capability of widths up to 10". 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
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Offline barbender

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 03:02:33 pm »
The little bit I've visited with Logosol owners, they sound like a fussy machine, and your material you're feeding needs to be straightlined and sorted for thickness, because they don't have enough power to take a lot of material off. I was going to bring a guy with a Logosol some pine I wanted made into wp4, he said he was happier if my sawing was consistent, to only gave it 1/8 thicker than final dimension. I will also say I've seen some decent looking material come off of them. Let me express it another way- I have a 6 way dozer blade for my skid steer. It is fussy and has taken me a long time to get where I can do good work with it, but I wouldn't want to be without it. If a dozer operator tried to use my machine, they'd give up in frustration after about 2 minutes. Kinda like a guy that has run a big 5 or 6 head milder would likely be very frustrated with a Logosol or other small machine. However, I think that with patience and knowing the limitations of the machine, they can produce some quality product.
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 03:07:44 pm »
Moulders and 4 siders tend to be slightly different beasts.

4 siders like jakes pinhero or my klein are designed to handle big lumps of wood but the profile options are limited as most will only take straight knives on the top and bottom.

Moulders have a lot less size capacity but can do more with it profile wise.

Heads = speed. The more heads you have the less material you need to remove with each head. That also equates to quality of finish.

I looked over the logosol machines a while back and think they're great within their limitations.  Price wise they're a new machine for about the price of a decent second hand wadkin or weinig and they appear well made.

The limitation is the 4 heads and rhe capacity of those heads. My gut told me I would to double pass to get my desired finish on T&G etc... once to s4s and once to shape it. But I would expect that on a 4 header regardless of manufacturer. Where the likes of a weinig with 4 heads would beat it would be on deep profiles like cornice and crown molding where there's a lot of material to remove... HP per head matters then.

For single pass work you want a 5 or 6 header. You ain't gonna find that single phase. And as mentioned yoy need serious dust extraction and that will be three phase too.

The one thing to remember with all this is that a moulder will not conduct miracles. If you feed bent timber inti a short bed machine you'll get bent timber back out. So straightening is important and that may require2 passes anyway even with a 6 header.

Older machine often get sold with their tooling and that can be a great help. A  good collection of knives can add up to a lot of money.

Edit: The only other thing ill add is that of all the equipment I own its the kilns and the moulder that are the most profitable. It takes time to build that side of the business but it's time well spent.  Too many people think it's just an add on but there's a reason being a wood machinist is a separate trade and they get more pay than sawmill hands... it requires precision. There's a lot of guys think a moulder is just there to make it pretty and fix the green mill problem of badly sawn boards but all Moulders are fussy and require constant tinkering.  4 siders not so much but again it's back to the limitations they come with.
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Offline PAmizerman

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 03:43:09 pm »
I agree with long time lurker 100% well said
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Offline campwags

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 04:57:45 pm »
Have you looked at the WoodMaster 3 sided planers?  I use mine to make 2" T&G and ship-lap siding. They are very flexible machines that can do rip sawing, planing and sanding.  They are made by our sponsor   at TimberKing.
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Offline WLC

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 06:17:35 pm »
Have you looked at the WoodMaster 3 sided planers?  I use mine to make 2" T&G and ship-lap siding. They are very flexible machines that can do rip sawing, planing and sanding.  They are made by our sponsor   at TimberKing.

While I would love a Logosol I can't justify the cost for my use/needs. I never plan on doing any commercial sawing or associated tasks.  I've been looking really hard at the woodmaster machines.  While not the fastest, nor, I imagine, "the best", I Think one would suit my needs just fine.  I've got lots more time than money and a woodmaster fits those parameters.

Campwags, which model do you have?  My biggest question on the Woodmaster is how much snipe do they leave?  Any feedback on them would be welcome.
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Offline thechknhwk

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 08:18:09 pm »
Logosol 260 won't do it in one pass, you'll be pre-planing and straightening all your lumber.  The 360 might, I think it's 5 head?  Baker makes a logosol clone, but with better motors, I think they run 7.5hp on the top and bottom, and then 5hp on the sides, but you'll still have to straighten everything.

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 08:20:20 pm »
If I could make a reasonable upgrade I would go with the baker and run a phase converter.  I think it would have enough power to run some byrd heads in the top and bottom.

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 08:27:56 pm »
I took some 1 inch to be planed .3 phase machine with removable heads . this thing is about 4 feet wide 8 feet long . I watched it run 80 feet per min on 4 side 60 ft. on TG and 30 ft. on flooring . I wish I would have got the name .
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Offline SlowJoeCrow

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 08:31:23 am »
About 2 months ago, being a Woodmaster owner/customer I got a sales flyer from Woodmaster and in it they were advertising a brand new 4 head moulder at an introductory price.  This wasn't like their existing machines, it was a brand new complete new design.  I'll see if I can find the flyer.  I can't find any mention of this online though.  It might be what you are looking for, I would give them a call for more information if I were you.

Online RIMwood

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 11:38:58 am »
I have a Logosol PH260, and yes it does 2" T&G in one pass.
Currently working 1000 sf of 2" x 10" x 16' Ash, smooth one side and bead board the other side for a timber frame floor. The bead board will be exposed on the under side showing between the beams. I milled the Ash to 7/4 x 11", kiln dried in my solar kiln down to 8%, then straight lined it on the saw mill to 10", then put it through the PH260 for a finish board width 9.5"  x 1.5". I am having some problems with stress in the Ash logs, some of the boards are milling inconsistently on the thickness. For those I do need to pre plane to take the highs off, but normally pre planing is not needed. Before the ash run I did 1000 sf of 1" x 12" popular bead board which ran through the PH260 beautifully no pre plaining. I bought the PH260 used, got a great deal under $5000 with extras, but I did have to install a 3 phase converter, and a large chip extractor.







Offline barbender

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 01:42:24 pm »
You scored at that price!
Too many irons in the fire

Online TKehl

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 01:45:51 pm »
A used moulder is not a bad option.  A Stetson Ross/Smithway XL aren't overly heavy and have relatively low HP.  They also have a reputation of being a little extra fussy to setup...  Big old moulders (like I have) are pretty cheap when found, but can be projects unto themselves (like mine is), and often difficult to sell.  There are a lot of guys here and on OWWM that will steer a person in the right direction.

The biggest downside of the old moulders, is the setups take longer and the knives are expensive compared to newer designs.  I plan to set mine up for flooring and use my Woodmasters (712 & 718) for moulding.  If business allows, I would like to get a Baker 412, Logosol, or perhaps the new 4 sided Woodmaster I keep being teased about.   ;) 

Lineshaft means no motor.  It's set up to be run off a belt from another power source.  Used to be waterwheels, steam engines, and such, but could be anything.  I'm also limited to single phase, so I like lineshaft as I can run it off the tractor, stationary engine, or electric motor. 

However, I wouldn't be afraid of 3 phase at the right price.  They can be powered using a generator (with engine or tractor driven), rotary converter, or static converter. 

For what you are doing, I would strongly consider a good jointer and good shaper table with feeder.  Easy to obtain at a reasonable price.  Easier to setup.  Easy to resell.  Just more handling...
Lucas 6-13+slabber, Mr. Sawmill bandmill, orange chainsaws, JD SSL, Case Backhoe, farm tractors, trailers, and 150ish acres of trees.  Fledgling woodshop with CNC router, laser engraver, Woodmaster 712, and a Berlin 108 moulder (project).  Oh, and a lovely (patient) wife and four offbearers.

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 03:07:06 pm »
Yeah... nah.... id stay right away from the kikes of an old Stetson Ross etc.

One of the best bits of advice I never followed was " buy a 60k machine that could be run by a 5k a year man, not a 5k machine that took a 60k a year man to run it."

So I got an old Robinson which is that same generation of equipment - working antique.  Those things were designed to be operated by a machinist. Theyre finicky, setup times are long, the beds are usually half worn out, and every time you turn around you seem to be fixing something. Great when they're running and will do the same job as a new one but not at all suited for short runs.

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Offline campwags

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Re: Machine for S4S and T&G?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 04:59:46 pm »
I have the WoodMaster 718 with the 3 sided molding option.  I am using the spiral cutter-head and not get snipe.  The trick I am told is to run your boards one after the other to avoid snipe.
I have not had mine for long, but I have a lot of 1 X 6 pine T&G for  interior siding to make soon.  I'll take some photos and post soon.
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