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Author Topic: Timberlok and related fasteners  (Read 1319 times)

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Offline MbfVA

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Timberlok and related fasteners
« on: October 08, 2017, 06:16:01 pm »
It looks like the maximum length on Timberlok connectors is 10 inches.  Is that true of all similar brand of such TF fasteners? Certainly that does not bode well for use with very large timbers, unless some sort of angular drilling can be used.

If I understand the Timberlinx site correctly, by using their A and AA connectors ("half link"), most any length of connection can be done by using threaded rod in between 2 of them. Anyone care to say if I'm correct on that?

Timberlinx however are very expensive compared to Timberlok, et als.

I'm sure a lot of this comes down to engineering.

Newbie questions, thanks for your patience & for your help.

www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2017, 09:55:30 pm »
What are you planning to use Timberloks for?  Timberloks screws and Timberlinx are apples and oranges.  Not for the same purpose.

I've only seen Timberloks used in two places- securing rafter ends and floor joists.  The timberloks did not take the load of the rafter as they still had a birdsmouth pocket.  Timberloks do not replace traditional Mortise and tenon, but Timberlinx do when used correctly.
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2017, 11:13:43 pm »
Thanks, learning here, and obviously I certainly need a better understanding of when T-Lok can be used.

Are there any competing products to T-Linx?  There seem to be many competitors to T-Lok.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline Stuart Caruk

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 04:11:31 am »
Timberlinx makes a wickedly cool product that for me, can't be beat. They come in a couple different sizes, but you can make a connector for any length. You just have to be able to first drill the hole for them to fit. I've used them to securely fasten both permanent and temporary connections. I haven't seen a competitor, except perhaps IKEA, but their connectors are way smaller. For large beams and timbers, I like them way better than mortise and tenon joints, although they are overkill and expensive for smaller connections. I just ordered up a tenon cutter and a chain mortiser. We'll see if that makes the smaller joints easier, or not.

Timberloks are yet another take on a lag screw. There are, as you note dozens of companies making a competing fastener.
Stuart Caruk
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Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 06:50:34 pm »
It's not a Timberlinx by any stretch of the imagination, but there is also the T-Rex connector from Connecticut Post and Beam.  Yet another twist on post frame construction.
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Offline flyingparks

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 06:56:23 pm »
http://www.globalindustrial.com/product/itemKey/32088598

I used these to secure rafters and floor joists. Same as timberloks but these are 14". Not sure if this is what you are after.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 06:57:12 pm »
... T-Rex connector from Connecticut Post and Beam.  Yet another twist on post frame construction.

Really bad, really bad.  But, sir, you will dethrone the king.

 In fact I have a much better frame of reference for bad puns, so bad that  I am shunned at family gatherings, so bad that people yell Timber! when they're 'coming down'
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 06:58:50 pm »
 But thanks for the Linx...gotcha again!
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 07:06:04 pm »
I truly hate to get serious here after my so punishing posts...

but I would suspect the safe use in building of the 2 connectors linked above depends on whether or not they been evaluated by ASTM or whomever gives comfort on such materials to structural engineers so they are willing to stamp plans with them spec'd on there.  Don P or moderator Jim is probably our best US resource on that, or Ianab?
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline flyingparks

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 07:12:26 pm »
You haven't made clear what your use is. And depending on where you live you will most likely need an engineer to review and stamp. The connectors I linked worked for my application and were spec'd by the engineer. As Brad said, they aren't suited for all or most applications. If you are looking to replace a mortise and tenon joint, then I believe a Timberlinx will work conditionally. A Timberlok most certainly will not. I'm not an engineer for what it's worth.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 01:35:12 pm »
Right.  So what's the use? 

FYI, for securing SIPS panels we've used Headloks.  https://www.fastenmaster.com/products/headlok-heavy-duty-flathead-fastener.html

They go in 1 inch increments up to 18 inches long.  They use a spiderdrive bit.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2017, 11:00:45 pm »
Taking note, looks like the same company makes TimberLOK and several other LOK suffixed fasteners as well.  One stop shopping at Lowes or any other of their retailers.

I wish Timberlinx was sold locally at retail as well.  Harder to get rid of that extra box of $40 connectors that you didn't need, at the end of the job,  because you bought too many not wanting to run out when they have to come from Canada.

 Brad, when you say spiderdrive, is that another name for Torx?
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 12:09:42 am »
No, spyderdrive has more teeth and slightly different shape teeth. Those fasteners come with a bit.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
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Offline kantuckid

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 11:54:16 am »
I don't know all the sizes but how's about Spax fasteners?
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 09:27:51 pm »
A quick look at the Spax website indicates they make several products.  The only ones that I would relate to timber framing noted being grade 5.  They definitely might have application in  certain situations, but surely not where there are high structural stresses?   I'd  like to know what some of the contractors/engineers on here think/know, perhaps they have access to a pro catalog for the specs.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2017, 11:01:23 pm »
I look for an ICC approval or an ESR number, engineering services report, on the package. You can also look up the report by manufacturer or material type at the esr link at iccsafe.org. In those reports is usually the technical specs you are talking about.

Takeaway, look for that approval on the box then find out what the approval is actually for.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 12:30:33 am »
I assume those are the references that an engineer reviewing our plans would use when he or she sees what fasteners we intend to use.

 I'm not sure why Spax doesn't have a document on their website detailing their specs, other than the one mention of type 5.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
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and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline kantuckid

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 03:18:59 pm »
I'm building a small stack log cabin on my property. No zoning or engineering concerns, just what I'll call logical building practice. Our home I built 1979-80 using stack log method- I used 3/8" x 12" spikes and drilled 5/16" pilot holes into 6" thick logs. A number of kit manufacturers used that method at the time, in fact I don't think the screws mentioned above were even available then.
Is there a practice in use now with these various screws in stack log construction to allow for log shrinkage, i.e., downward movement?
My only experience is with screws for a timber frame room addition and two cedar porch jobs.
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 03:47:22 pm »
 I'd love to know more about your experience with that addition, what type of fasteners you used and how you used them.

I'll bet similar issues of shrinkage, etc, would come up with timber frame as it does with logs, although some different engineering is involved, because of stacking logs v critical load bearing joints, ie, where fasteners are replacing mortise and tenon.

We own a big log cabin on the National Register of Historic Places, and I don't see much evidence of fasteners  in the original all log sections, except for the rabbit wire and cement in the joints.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline kantuckid

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2017, 08:57:48 am »
Old cabins use wood pegs if any fastners at all- other than stuff layered on later by following generations-like siding,etc.. having torn down many old structure I've seen about every kind of nail ever made. We rented an old house that had a carpenters old chest in a chicken house and there were maybe 100+ pounds of crooked nails in there. The old guys saved them to straighten for use over again. Time counted different then? Can you imagine a millenial reusing old nails? :D 
My 16' x 32' timber frame LR addition(old house had long settled but alleviated a "settling connection" on the new room) to our older house the wall frame is hidden behind log cabin siding used as the skin inside /out. The EWP roof frame is pegged together with turned oak pegs bought from a common timber framing source. That wood I air dried on sticks for 6 months under cover then planed all of it  to actual 4 x 6. Ceiling is kiln dried western pine that approximates the appearance of the old houses EWP 2x6 T&G ceiling. The company that machined the old ceiling is out of business so I drew up a work sketch of a cutter set and had them made to run my own T&G for the new ceiling. Made on my router table.
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2017, 11:33:04 am »
It just occurred to me that Spax mentions type 5 instead of grade 5. Does anyone know what type 5 means?
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2017, 12:50:34 pm »
Tip style?

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2017, 01:05:56 pm »
if that's so, then we still need to know how strong these connectors are.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline loganworks2

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2017, 01:42:20 pm »
Just thought I would add GRK fasteners to the list. If you go to their site they give complete information on each fasteners specifications along with their shear streangth. All of their fasteners
Are structurally rated.

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2017, 09:50:40 pm »

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2017, 10:53:23 pm »
 Thank you Don as always. There are times when I wish I was the engineer that I thought about becoming, but instead, as the accountant I DID become, I do my worrying about cost.

Using what little I do recall from my days in the College of Engineering at Virginia Tech, and some gut instinct included, I'll go away out on a limb and say that it looks like Spax makes some pretty strong fasteners.  While acknowledging that the engineer's stamp on plans, with adequate specifications spelled out, is the final arbiter of what is safe & ok w the BI, do you think Spax holds promise for good strong timber/post & beam framing in lieu of mortise and tenon, let's say at least on a par with Timberlinx, et al?
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline Don P

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Re: Timberlok and related fasteners
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2017, 10:01:39 am »
In lieu of? No, not at all. Within their allowables, yes of course. I've built many houses with nothing but nails in the way of connectors, it is all about working within what is allowable for the material.