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Author Topic: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill  (Read 1114 times)

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Offline DanMc

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I put a fresh new Timberwolf blade on my HM126 mill and proceeded to mill some oak and beech.  While cutting into this I was noticing that the blade seems to like to bite into the wood.  This creates a cutting action where the blade bites in and causes kind of like a low-frequency chatter where the mill head skews off to the right a little while the log skews off to the left and it bounces back and forth like this.  I tried pushing harder to see if I could keep a more even cutting action, but the only thing I could find that would settle it down was to move slowly through the log. 

I have the logs well secured on the mill track, using two clamps. 

I milled a spruce log and didn't have any issues with this kind of behavior. 

I have not experienced this before, so it would be good if you more experienced guys could comment on what this is called and how to deal with it, it would be much appreciated. 

I'm thinking that maybe a different hook angle on the blade for the hardwoods may be in order? 
Woodland HM126 mill
JD 4600 tractor
28 acres of trees.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 11:01:57 am »
Sounds like the hook angle is to high. You need less rake.
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Offline drobertson

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 11:54:53 am »
as mentioned, you might be sure you are using 4 blades, and from what I've heard over the years, timber wolf blades have some to be desired,, never used them, just heard of enough head aches from using them,,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 11:55:49 am »
What degree blade you using? I have the same mill and I saw a lot of oak all the time and never had that problem. I use Kasco 7 degree blades.

Offline DanMc

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 11:58:33 am »
Timberwolf says their blades are set to a 10 degree hook angle. 
Woodland HM126 mill
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28 acres of trees.

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2017, 12:05:02 pm »
10 degrees? Don't sound like it for the blade biting into the cut.

Offline Ga Mtn Man

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2017, 12:26:43 pm »
You will be much happier using a 4 blade with your HM126.  FF member Cutting Edge is a good source for 4 Kasco blades at a good price.
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Offline DanMc

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 12:39:21 pm »
I knew that I would have to dig into tooth geometry at some point!  I'll look into getting some 4 degree blades for hardwoods and keep the 10 degree blades for soft.

This is what Woodmizer says about hook angle:
D. Hook Angle - the number of degrees that the tooth face leans forward of 90 degrees. The hook angle should be chosen based on the type of wood you are sawing.

4 degree: frozen or extreme hardwoods on all sawmills
7 degree: frozen, tropical, and extreme hardwoods on higher horsepower (25+HP), wide cut sawmills
9 degree: seasoned, hardwoods for lower horsepower sawmills making narrow cuts on smaller logs
10 degree: all purpose for a mix of hard and softwoods on all sawmills
12 degree: medium to softwoods
13 degree: softwoods

Here's what Timberwolf has in their .PDF:
WHAT IS HOOK ARTICULATION? Because of our deep gullets, we are able to use lower hook
angles which generate less heat on the tip of the tooth. The Timber Wolf series of bands uses a 10
degree rake or hook angle which is capable of penetrating most surfaces from medium-hard to medium-
soft woods.
If you are cutting very hard wood like white oak, walnut, ash or anything frozen throughout, the blade
will probably rise in the cut. This is called push-off. The hook angle must be brought back to 8
degrees. You will notice as the angle goes from 10 degrees to 8 degrees, the tooth becomes more perpendicular,
thus INCREASING it's penetration factor.
As the tip of the tooth goes from 10 degrees to 12 degrees the tip of the tooth starts pointing forward
DECREASING penetration in hardwood. If you use 8 degrees on soft wood the blade may chatter
because its over feeding itself, unless its very knotty. You need to use an 8 degree hook angle for the
hard knots. On the other hand, if you use a 12 degree hook angle on very hardwood, the tooth skips
over the hard surface because the tip of the tooth is pointing too far forward.
Having a 12 degree hook angle in hardwood causes push-off making the band ride up. The band locks
itself in place, cuts straight across, and drops down at the end of the cut. This also burns up the band
and over tensions it.
By articulating the proper hook angle, and your gullet is mathematically correct for the pitch, you will
achieve straight grade cuts every time. YOU MUST UNDERSTAND APPROPRIATE SET AND
HOOK ARTICULATION, THEY WORK TOGETHER. We manufacture for North America 5 appropriate
sets with a 10 degree hook angle. 70% of the time this hook angle will be perfect for whatever
you are cutting.
Woodland HM126 mill
JD 4600 tractor
28 acres of trees.

Offline DanMc

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 01:25:05 pm »
I spoke with one of the guys at MQSharp about this.  They sell Timberwolf, so all they have is 10 degree, unless they resharpen. 

He said that my issue is most likely due to having too much set in the teeth, and it's aggravated because I have logs that were cut two years ago and they are a little dry and extra hard.  He recommended a 3/4" pitch blade, and that I should also try one with less set in the teeth for the hardwood. 

He agreed that a lower hook angle will help, but it would be better to keep the 10 degrees and go with less set.

I'll pick those up on my way to NH on Friday and see how it goes this weekend with another beech.  It's all part of the learning!!
Woodland HM126 mill
JD 4600 tractor
28 acres of trees.

Online Bruno of NH

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 03:54:17 pm »
They sharpen my bands and l like them they are great folks
Get your self some 4degree bands your going to need them
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Online Bruno of NH

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 03:58:55 pm »
I also only have 13hp and run mostly 7 degree bands and my mill cuts great with them
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 05:14:36 pm »
13hp and and 4% for me...
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Offline btulloh

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 05:17:59 pm »
I've got an HM126 also.  I've had much better performance in oak with the 7 degr Kasko's.  I also have 10 degr. Lennox, but they aren't worth a hoot in oak.  I should get some 4 degr. for the hard stuff, especially something like 2 year old oak logs (I have a couple of those).

They HM126 has worked really well and I've been very pleased with it.  That said, it's only 9 1/2 hp and the frame is not stiff enough to take a pounding from old oak with 10 degr, blades.  This is just a reality of a mill from this end of the spectrum.  I accept that as part of the deal.

I think cutting a two year old oak log on any band mill is a chore for the mill.  It's just hard and dry.  Most people on here recommend cutting when green as possible, especially with harder woods.  We all aim to do that, but stuff happens and logs age and dry.

The HM126 will get through it though.  It just takes the right blade and a slower feed. 

I'm sure there are plenty of good blades out there, I don't have any direct experience with the other blade manufacturers other than Kasco and Lennox and the Kasco's have worked well for me.  Plus they're inexpensive.  Just my $0.02
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Offline DanMc

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2017, 08:34:25 pm »
I have checked with two suppliers of 4 degree blades.  Both said that I need to purchase a minimum of 15 blades.  I'm still experimenting and learning, so I'm only going to want to pick up a couple to see how they work first. 

Any recommendations on a supplier for small numbers?
Woodland HM126 mill
JD 4600 tractor
28 acres of trees.

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2017, 08:51:37 pm »
I have yet to find any company that would sell a couple blades. :(

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2017, 09:11:30 pm »
They are out there
I buy from one
He will sell you one or 100
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Offline Stuart Caruk

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2017, 01:46:17 am »
I get my sawmill blades from Woodmizer, but for all 3 of my metal bandsaws I use www.Sawblade.com. They will sell you one or a bunch and pricing drops with quantity. They make a pretty good wood blade as well. I bought some to slap in my Marvel saw for cutting big timbers. Worked great.
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2017, 03:17:33 am »
You can buy one at a time on E-bay.
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2017, 07:21:00 am »
Paul,

   Have you contacted WM to buy just a blade or two? Seems to me they advertise a single blade price. I confess I always bought a box at a time to get quantity discounts but was certain I could buy less if I wanted. In fact, I do now remember buying 2-3 turbo 7's as a test. Good luck.
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Offline DanMc

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Re: Cutting hardwood, bandsaw blade bites in and shakes the mill
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2017, 03:19:42 pm »
Blades can be had in units of 1 from MQSharp in New Hampshire, and also from Jerrys Resharp in KY.

I'm getting the following blades to experiment with:
3/4" pitch 10 degree             - Timberwolf
7/8" pitch 10 degree low set  - Timberwolf
7/8" pitch 4  degree              - Kasco
7/8" pitch 7  degree              - Ripper37

Should be loads of fun. 

Woodland HM126 mill
JD 4600 tractor
28 acres of trees.