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Author Topic: Can the Ash recover...?  (Read 1539 times)

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Offline GrizG

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Can the Ash recover...?
« on: May 19, 2017, 11:32:12 pm »
The EAB is an insect that does physical damage to the ash trees. They are not a fungus or other disease like those that took the elm, chestnut, etc.  As such, I have to wonder if the ash could regenerate in the future from seeds lying dormant on the ground... The EAB would presumably move on and/or die off once the live ash supply is exhausted so perhaps the ash could regenerate. Thoughts?

Offline square1

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2017, 05:32:34 am »
Absolutely. I'm 90 miles north of the US EAB  ground zero (Port of Detroit). I discovered the first EAB in our county 11~12 years ago. Having cleared well over 500 dead ash (trees were without a doubt dead before felling) from the property, there are now saplings up my ash.  Several mature trees that had been hit have recovered fully and some were skipped over by the bug completely.

I'd like to hear a discussion on the likelihood of EAB making a return trip / 2nd pass through an area.  Did they skip certain trees due to some built in biological self preservation mechanism?

Offline John Mc

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2017, 06:59:47 pm »
I read somewhere that something like 1% of the ash in rural areas survived, but that basically none survived in urban areas. The theory was that urban trees had little genetic diversity, since they were likely planted from nursery stock.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline square1

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2017, 04:36:04 am »
1% is pretty accurate on my place.  It's weird that the trees surrounding the survivors were attacked. There is no "pocket" of missed trees. 

A related tidbit. Last summer a couple older gentlemen standing in the road by the cabin "up north" were having a conversation about how "those three big ash trees are still alive". I could hear them 2nd guessing their tree identification abilities since there isn't a live ash for miles in any direction. The trees, all > 20" dbh, were treated religiously with Bayer Tree & Shrub since well before EAB was found in that county.

Offline wolf nemeth

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2017, 06:50:43 pm »
Well, it's heartening to hear that  some of the ash trees do survive. I am cutting most of the big ones  on my hill farm, but am now wondering if there is a cetain  size or terrain associated with EAB  resistance.... Any thoughts?
If you  don't know where you're going, you'll probably end up somewhere else!

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 07:26:28 am »
Have always seen the same thing with beech. A 16" (or any size) for instance,  smooth beech among a sea of infected dying beech. Don't know if insects skipped it or fungus couldn't infect it. And like the beech, I would not cut the ash ahead of the insects in case there is some resistance. When it's cut, too late to find out. I know there is a monetary issue, but price of hardwood is so low up here that it might as well be firewood in furnace. Mills don't pay much these days for hardwood logs, pulp price or slighty more. Those days are gone for now. $170 a cord for logs won't get my logs. :D


Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 07:45:08 am »
Have always seen the same thing with beech. A 16" (or any size) for instance,  smooth beech among a sea of infected dying beech. Don't know if insects skipped it or fungus couldn't infect it.

There are strains of beech that are resistant to the Beech Bark Disease. Read an article about it a while ago. Often the disease will still attack the resistant ones, but the result looks different. (Unfortunately, I can't remember what that difference looked like right now.)

Quote
And like the beech, I would not cut the ash ahead of the insects in case there is some resistance. When it's cut, too late to find out. I know there is a monetary issue, but price of hardwood is so low up here that it might as well be firewood in furnace. Mills don't pay much these days for hardwood logs, pulp price or slighty more. Those days are gone for now. $170 a cord for logs won't get my logs. :D

I agree - if you can afford not to cut the Ash you may be helping to contribute to the species adaptation to develop resistance/tolerance for the EAB.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 07:53:13 am »
On about resistance......... it was discovered that our strain of butternut in New Brunswick has different genetics than in the rest of it's range. Our population here and part of Maine is isolated. There is work going on to study resistance in our strain to the canker. There is no evidence yet that there is any special resistance. The study is in it's infancy. Although I have not seen any canker in any of my trees so far. I have seen some that are dying elsewhere, but I have not studied those trees either. They might just be old or week individuals. They don't live very long to begin with, compared to sugar maple.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Jemclimber

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2017, 07:04:56 am »
1% is pretty accurate on my place.  It's weird that the trees surrounding the survivors were attacked. There is no "pocket" of missed trees. 

A related tidbit. Last summer a couple older gentlemen standing in the road by the cabin "up north" were having a conversation about how "those three big ash trees are still alive". I could hear them 2nd guessing their tree identification abilities since there isn't a live ash for miles in any direction. The trees, all > 20" dbh, were treated religiously with Bayer Tree & Shrub since well before EAB was found in that county.
Bayer tree and shrub contains Imidacloprid, which is a systemic insecticide.  Systemic means that it's taken into the tree to provide long term protection. Imidacloprid is the same insecticide that companies use to treat ash against EAB. However the companies that treat ash trees generally use injection as the entry method.  This method involves drilling holes in the trunk and inserting containers of the insecticide to the tree, which is probably more effective than trying to spray large trees.
Here's another tidbit, Imidacloprid is a neonicontinoid, a synthetic nicotine which is toxic to many insects. In old days people use to make and insecticide from tobacco leaf tea.
lt15

Offline wolf nemeth

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2017, 09:06:25 am »
That's the problem.  Use  a neonicotinoid to save  a tree, and you kill your bees.....
If you  don't know where you're going, you'll probably end up somewhere else!

Offline Jemclimber

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 10:25:26 am »
Many reports claim that neonics at real world application dosage are relatively safe for bees. Bees don't eat the plant and they are not applied while flowers are in bloom.

Maybe an analogy not quite perfect, chlorine is toxic to humans. If a person drank bottle of chlorine it would be deadly, but chlorine is added to drinking water in small amounts. 
lt15

Offline Autocar

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2017, 04:39:27 pm »
Just my two cents but the ask borer will be just like the dutch elm. When a elm gets so big they seem to die I think when these little ash get a certain size the borer will get into them and there die. Elm in my part of the county is hard to find anymore because they never get big enough to make seed. I think the ash trees will go the same path get so big never big enough to make seed and there disappear from the landscape also.
Bill

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2017, 04:41:36 pm »
But I remember someone on this board commenting on how there are ash trees that are not attacked in a group of trees that are dead? I did misread or did my brain do that thing that brains do?
I knew what I thought I meant.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2017, 05:08:51 pm »
I remember when the gypsy moth came through my area in the '70s.  It was going to be the end of the oak forest.  The moth population collapsed, and the trees came back.  We still have an occasional outbreak, but nothing like before.  There are also some natural controls that our state put in that has helped.

Ash only grows on some pretty good sites in my area.  I have some on my property, and the smaller ones are getting nailed.  They're also close to the road.  I noticed that the trees on one side of the property are getting hit, but on the other side they're not.  A total distance of about 500'.  I'm not sure of the correlation.  I've noticed the smaller ash get hit harder and die.  The larger ones seem to have more resilience.  Also, I cut a flagging one early this year and noticed I've gotten sucker sprouts on the stump. 

What I have to wonder about is what happens to the EAB when there are no ash in the area.  The gypsy moth had some alternate species they would munch on.  I'm not sure if there are other species they can survive on.  It seems that they can survive on olive trees, but ash is in the olive family. 
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 04:59:13 pm »
I had some sprout from the roots from  almost completely dead ash,some three feet in diameter .About 5-6 years ago .Those second growths are 12-15 feet high and look good .In addition with the removal of some of the larger ones the dormant under growths sprouted and there are  hundreds of them  about a foot tall .

For reasons unknown the little 2-3 inch saplings were not attacked by the borer and those look good .Never the less I doubt in my great grand childrens life if they ever see the 3 feet diameter 100 foot ash trees like I have in this area .It takes about 125-150 years to get that large .BTW I've saved the big logs and have 12-15000 BDF to get sawn up .A good big ash used to yield around 1500 BDF same as an average  oak in these parts .

Offline square1

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 03:40:51 am »
But I remember someone on this board commenting on how there are ash trees that are not attacked in a group of trees that are dead? I did misread or did my brain do that thing that brains do?
You're correct. I have (someone put the number at 1% and I think it's pretty accurate) untouched trees surrounded by the stumps of dead ash.

Offline square1

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 03:57:47 am »
If anyone still believes EAB are only in the cambium layer...While splitting a block of ash yesterday I found this dead larvae.  The gallery starts about mid picture and trails off to the right and slightly upward.  At the right end of the gallery, where it looks darker, is the larvae.  The beam on my splitter is 6" wide so this guy is at least 3" into the tree.  I took close-ups, but forgot to allow for the lens / viewer offset on the camera.  If you blow up the picture you can make out the distinctive bell shaped body segments of the EAB larva.


Offline TreeStandHunter

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Re: Can the Ash recover...?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 07:08:28 pm »
The EAB is going to be making another come back here shortly. the bug prefers trees at a certain DBH 5"+ or so and we (in southeast Michigan) are having thousands of re sprouts that are starting to hit that size and will be dying off again. There are mature Ash that were skipped over by EAB and the reason why they are trying too find out. They think that its possible it had a genetic mutation and the bug just passed them by, in our park system we have several of them that are 20"+ trees that are standing healthy amongst several dead of various DBH.
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