Rot resistance of WHITE oak

[Engineer]

I've asked this question over at Fine Homebuilding's forum (another place I'm at every day) and can't get a straight answer, so I'm gonna change my question:

I'd purchased 2x12 PT sills for my new house, the new ACQ PT lumber that requires stainless or galvanized fasteners.  I'd rather not use the PT crap, and have access to 2x12 white oak.  I know it's more money, but I don't care as long as I don't have any of that PT stuff on my house.  The question is, how long should one expect a white oak, 2x12 rough sawn sill plate to LAST?  Lets assume we have a cured foundation (6 months now), no direct contact with water or earth, sill sealer used, no termites.   I know RED oak rots if you look at it sideways, but white is supposed to be pretty rot-resistant, no?  

There's another reason for me asking - I'm building a portico (not Porte-cochere) off the front entrance to the house, and it will be timber framed in white oak.  I shouldn't expect this to just rot and collapse in ten years, right?  The posts are going to be up on piers and sealed.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well,
I have just cut up some white oak tree tops that were layin in my woods for 30 years. The resultant wood was dead solid in the heart even down to the small 4 inch branches.............
However, The pith and maybe the outer 2-3 inches were gone , what remained was hard as a rock!!
Laying in damp woods for 30 years...
I would recomend using the heart of the logs you have for these reasons

[Bibbyman]

One of the stories my old Uncle Ed told was that his dad was very skilled at hewing out stuff.  Whenever someone in the neighborhood stated a new house or barn, etc,  they’d have him over to hew out the sill plates (out of white oak).   Uncle said,  (and I never knowed the man to tell a lie) that a hewed log would not rot as fast as a one sawn out.   He reckoned it was because the rough sawing left a lot of torn and exposed wood where the hewing not only made it smoother but also tended to “seal” the wood.

The point is,  if you buy into the above,  you may want to plane your 2x12s.  

They also charred oak posts to resist rot.   I can see where that may help. They were also known to char any holes drilled into the woodwork for such things as wagon beds, etc.

Around here,  I’d also consider using all heartwood ERC or maybe red elm.

[Al_Smith]

White oak,true story,almost impervious to water penetration.I also have cut stuff,in the 70's,that was felled in the early 40's.The heart wood,was solid as a rock[hard as a rock too].

[Engineer]

Well, the water penetration is one thing (otherwise all the world's wine cellars would be flooded), but rot is another.  There's a local feed store that sells half-barrels, and they're white oak, and most of them are falling apart after only two or three years.  Might the combination of water and SUN cause the degradation of the wood?

[rebocardo]

I think the biggest reason to use the PT would be the bugs will hate it. I had an old house in MA where it had a field stone basement, the nails looked like those horse shoe nails and I was told they were made on site form the dirt, and the "scrap" left over pieces of wood for the sheathing were 36" wide in some spots near the top of the house. It was upgraded over time to coal and then gas lamps in the walls. So, this house was old.

The only sill part of the house that rotted was under an improperly installed door and the only other wood on the house frame that rotted was the gutters when some of the copper that lined them corroded through.

This house was not put together with kiln dry oak either, it was cut on site to full sizes (2x6s for the wall framing) from the trees on the lot by appearances.

So, I think properly dried oak in a house properly built that discourages bugs will last longer then any of us will live x2. I would put down the metal under the sill and anchor the sill to the basement walls.

If I lived in FL or GA or one of the moist southern states I would think about using the PT because of termites and roaches, if you live farther north I would go with the oak.

[Furby]

The barrels out of white oak that  are used for ageing of whiskey and bourbon, are charred on the inside.

[etat]

Bibbymann, that was really interesting information about the charring of posts.  

[TN_man]

In many of the "How to build an underground house" type books recommend charring the two sides of timbers that will be facing the earthen side due to makeing it more rot resistent and untastey for bugs. I don't think Engineer would want charred timbers visible but he could charr the bottoms of them where they won't be seen.

[Ron Wenrich]

The sill plates on my house are white pine.  The age is 150 years.  As long as its dry, any wood should work.  Bugs is another story.  

White oak is considered rot resistant.  So is walnut, sassafras, catalpa and black cherry.

The reason the cut wine barrels fall apart is due to shrinkage.  When they have a liquid in them, it causes the wood to swell and to stay in place.  Empty them out and they fall apart in a few years.  

[Norm]

Most of the old barns here are framed in white oak (bur oak) and then skinned in some other kind of hardwood. I've seen them falling down but the frames are still solid. The reason they fall down is not the wo but the poor building techniqes they used back then. When they say they don't build em like they used too I always think "thank goodness"

[beav]

   Engineer- you're right- pt wood is EVIL. Use white oak, it is far superior. Be glad you have the knowledge and the choice. Just make sure the peices you use are free of sapwood. If they are reasonably uniform in thickness I wouldn't bother to plane them.
  In my experience, in my area, the old barns were built well originally, but  over the years the owners change the inside with no sense of the structural ramifications- a diag here, a few ceiling beams there, and maybe a collar tie  here and there, and before ya know it it's got the listing hogback look we all know :-/

[etat]

Er, um, gotta tell ya the truth.  I've used lots of pressure treated wood and havn't had any problems with it.  Got it on all my porches, and now I'm makin rails for the porch, out of 6/6's.  Would I rather have white oak, maybe, but just not enough of it available for my needs.  I'm talkin about the old style, with trace amounts of arsenic, I havn't had any experiences with the new version.

I did get my  hands on some 'fake' type pressure treated they was tryin to pass of on ya years ago..  It was mostly just green dye on it, and it'd rot in a year.  Now I check and make sure it's got the lables on it and haven't had any problems with rot.

Will it crack, and split and warp.  Probably would if I used it fresh from the lumber co.  It's soakin wet after the pressure treatment. Probably worse than if you just cut a fresh green tree.  I stack it up and let it dry out a bit, that's one bit of advice I got from the doc a long long time ago,

I haven't seen one study, anywhere, that stated, or proved, that there was enough arsenic in it to hurt anybody, or anything.

[beenthere]

. You are right about the arsenic, IMO. It's just "that-it-is-there" hype that keeps the media and the anti's going around in circles. They do more harm than good, but they don't know it nor do they care.  

[breederman]

I hope the stuff won't kill me,my puter is in the basement, and my whole foundation is made out of it! The only concrete in my house is in the celler floor.

[Robert_in_W._Mi.]

  The sills in my house are redwood, but if i was building today, they'd be pressure treated...  I haven't seen anything to scare me away from it yet...

 Robert

[etat]

These do not go to the ground, they set on concrete blocks.  The braces are temporary.  I haven't decided yet how I will finish off the area under the beams.  It'll probably have to wait until next year anyways.  In the meantime maybe they'll keep me or someone else from stumblin off the porch.  Tryin to talk the wife into letting me hire a back hoe to extend the pond so's I can fish from the front porch.






A word of advice.  Be very careful if you use white oak and it is where the damp, touching the ground, or where termites can get to it. If it isn't touching the ground, and bugs don't start eating on it it'll be ok.  I do have some experience with this in an old barn where my house is now setting.  If they get started in it before it is fully cured and hardened it won't last as long as you'd want.  At the least I'd treat it for termites, at least if I was using it in this area.  My termite problem was helped a lot  in the barn when I got chickens. Them termites wasn't worried too much about the old wood anyways, but they had a real taste for new whiteoak.  I din't want chickens under my house or porch though.

[KENROD]

White oak heart wood is very resistent to rot, the sap wood is not. If you use white oak for a sil make sure it is all heart wood.

We still have split white oak fence posts that are over 50 years old and strong enough to stop a moving vehicle. A feller ran off the road and tested them for us a couple years.

[Bibbyman]

I've seen a lot of old barns got to rot not because they were poorly built - but because the owners let the roofs get bad.  

I watched one great old barn just fall down in the length of 10 years.  Started with some tin missing,  then more,  then the roof stated to sag,  then started to lean and more tin came off,  then the whole building caved in.  Then it was gone.  

A shame - a half days work each year and a few nails would have saved the old barn.

[Engineer]

The only problem I have with the new PT stuff is that it eats steel.  Gotta use galvanized or stainless hardware/nails/bolts everywhere.  Plus I have a hard time finding stuff that doesn't look like a corkscrew.

[etat]

To me it's strange cause I hear that a lot.  About PT being twisted or warped or otherwise just plain lousy.  To me it's pine, that's been cut and dried and planed and then put in a big chamber and soaked with stuff that will help keep bugs from eating it up.  Plain and simple.  I've bought a bunch of it in the last few years.  I've built porches for a couple of customers, my brother, and a deck for my dad.  I've got over a hundred running feet anywhere from 8 foot to 12 foot wide on my house. I like to stack it up  and let it dry a bit, but I've also used a lot of it wet, straight from the lumber company. If using it wet when I put down floor boards I only partially nail them and go back about a week later and finish nailing them up to help prevent them from splitting as they dry.  

I never go pick it myself, unless I only need one or two boards. Almost always I have mine delivered.    Haven't had to complain because they always send out good lumber.  I do see the odd stack at the lumber company that they've set aside instead of trying to sell but it's never that much, just a few boards now and again.  But what I've bought, what they send out, no problems at all.  

Recently to help finish my porch I ordered 14 twelve foot 6/6;s and 18 8 foot 6/6's along with 50 more floor boards and 50 more 2/8's. I also used three 12 foot 6/6's that I've had laying on the ground for a few months that were still straight. To completely finish up I'm going to need a few more 6/6s. To date, and going back quite a few years I've had no  serious problems with any of it.  Maybe, and I'm serious here, that in some parts of the country they try to stick you with some low grade stuff