How much risk...long question

[edge]

For a recreational cutter (around the house and woods/property) I've dropped a decent amount of trees.  I do however have a "more experience would tell you" question for you all more experienced guys/gals.  

Looking to fell about a 50 foot pine over at a friend's home.  The base of the tree is 17"-19" in diameter.  The tree does stay fairly big all the way up to about 35 feet, so there is still a lot of weight up high, unlike some pines that get small up top.  

The tree is about 8-10 feet away from the house.  If you think of a clock face, the house is at 12 o'clock and the tree sits between 2 and 3 o'clock.  Looking at the front of the house, the tree is in front of the home, to the right of the middle-placed front door.  

The tree is fairly straight with no severe leaning, but there is a little.  If it fell on its own, it would probably want to go somewhere between 7 and 9 o'clock.

In studying the layout, my plan would be to drop the tree out past the 3 and 4 o'clock position on the clock face, straight away from the house.  I'm planning to get a cable/rope tied up high, probably at the 30 foot height.  That rope would then be wrapped around the tow hook on the front of my truck, and during the back/felling cut, some guys will be pulling there.  Of course we will have enough rope to get the pullers and truck well past the possible fall length of the top of the tree.

Now, finally for my question.  Combining the rope pull with proper wedge/felling cuts by me, what are the rough chances that anything can go wrong?  I know, I know, something can ALWAYS go wrong (wind, barber chair, etc).  I have dropped a lot of trees like this, and never had a problem.  With proper planning, they've always gone right where I wanted them to go.  

All I'm looking for is a vote of "a decent amount" of confidence (or non-confidence) that the tree will not decide to somehow go completely the wrong way down on the house.  I cannot imagine this happening with the rope pull and proper hinge/felling cuts....but I wanted to see what you all thought.  Has anyone seen this happen when no mistakes were made?  I realize this is tough without some pictures...thanks for any insight and advice.  

[Kevin]

With very little or better yet no wind and leaving a decent hinge to guide the tree it shouldn't be problem unless the tree is unbalanced or you discover significant decay in the face cut.
If you sever the hinge prematurely you could have trouble.
You shouldn't need a truck on a tree that size but you will want a good rope to work with.
The problem I see with guys using trucks is they exert too much tension on the rope well before the proper depth of the felling cut is reached.
I warned a co worker of this as he tried to remove a tree next to his cottage ... but he had done this before and was experienced.  
He just wanted me to cut the tree and before I had the back cut finished he decided to pull on it with the truck and the cheap poly rope he was using snapped under tension.
The tree didn't fall but he was lucky.

[rebocardo]

I think the risk increases with how diseased a tree is and this

"the back/felling cut, some guys will be pulling there".

On a tree like this without a winch, the truck should just be the anchor and nothing more. The truck exists solely to prevent it from falling into the house and not into the 7/9 oclock position if things go wrong.

Where are the deadmen lines?

I turned down a job where the pine was oozing sap and smelt like garbage because of the "what if factor" of it breaking in 1/2 and falling into a line or the customer's house. Almost the same layout as yours except it was to the left of the house. The tree was about 50 feet tall and 30 feet from the house.

I drew this out and my question is what is in the way in the tree's natural fall that you can not hit and why are you trying to drop it 45 degrees to the right in front of the house?

I think the guy behind the wheel is the biggest risk factor because if he yanks on the rope he will find:

1) The tree always wins - it has the most mass and unless the truck is anchored it can whip it around like a toy. It probably tips the scales at 4,000 pounds with the branches.

The worse thing is if he yanks the tree, breaks the wood fibre/hinge, gives it a yo-yo effect,  and the tree yanks the truck and falls into the house. A real risk without deadmen lines.

2) the rope will snap

I have yanked 20" trees six feet off the stump and I have to say, timing is everything. Generally, you do not pull until that tree has committed itself to gravity and started the freight train.

If you do not think the tree is going to go over with another two wacks on the wedge, then the truck should not be pulling or putting tension on the rope.

I know city workers that use this technique and it can be fun, but, the guy in the truck can easily get the guy with the saw killed being too gung ho about the pulling.

One guy cuts, one spots, the other drives. The guy cutting nods or give a signal to the spotter (who is near him that can see and hear what is happening) which determines what the spotter tells the driver (over CB).

Plus, you pull with the rear of the truck, not the front, for many reasons unless you have a winch.

[SasquatchMan]

Edge, like you, I'm basically a recreational cutter - lots of firewood trees, even some pretty big ones (50-80 ft tall).  

I recently cut a really badly leaning tree at my friend's house.  The tree was leaning back and to the side compared to where I wanted to drop it.  I hinged it, then realized the drop wasn't going to do what I wanted, due to the sideways nature of the lean.  So I hinged it differently, about a foot higher up the trunk, about 45 degrees different aim.

Well, the hinge broke out, tearing where I'd cut the first hinge, and the tree hooked up in the trees beside it.  We'd roped it, and had a vehicle on the end, so it came down where I wanted it, but it was a bit sweaty.

Moral is, they fall no problem in the forest.  By a house, you need to be sure of your fall before you cut (which I obviously wasn't).  A rotten tree can screw you, a big gust of wind can screw you.  But if you rope things off and give the tree no choices as to where to go, you should be just fine.

Make sure either your own insurance or the homeowner's insurance would cover an accident before you cut....

[Jeff]

Living in a subdivision I have watched some pretty interesting scenarios unfold while neighbors were pulling trees away from homes. The only advise I have is use TWO ropes.  

[Larry]

If ya gotta ask it might be time to get some help or at least make sure your friend is paid up on his homeowners.

I cut quite a bit and have had professional training.  Had a maple to take down leaning over my shed.  99.9% positive I could make it fall in the right direction with couple of wedges but why take a chance.  Checked to make sure my insurance paid up.  Put the 1/2" winch line from the tractor to the top of the tree, locked the wheels on the tractor, put the FEL down, and finally chained the front of the tractor to the back of my 1-ton Ford.



One thing most people never think about when using rope is to inspect it completely for weak spots, fraying, and twist the strands apart to look inside.  I bet Kevin could tell ya how to check a rope.

[Kevin]

The truth is I wouldn't use anyone else's rope in a critical situation.  
I buy my ropes new and know the history of each one.
I know the tensile strength of each rope and what the safe working limit is so I pretty much know what I'm working with.
The hinge is very important.
You cut too close to one side and the tree will turn in the wrong direction.
When I'm falling a tree between structures I always use my gunning sticks to mark the corners of the face cut and place a rope near the top to help direct the tree.
If the tree is unbalanced it changes the way you work the hinge but you always leave a hinge and allow the tree to break off the hinge rather than cut the tree free of the stump.

[Stephen_Wiley]

Where to begin  

Even though you explained tree position. Many variables are still not clear to give you advise.

Some of them are mentioned by the posts above. Might I start by suggesting that you hire a professional to work with you on this project.

An experienced faller/arborist will enjoy the opportunity to teach you problems you may not be addressing in your '1st look'. E.G., structural failure signs or symptoms.

Note: Pines with upper canopy weight and structural stem flaws are subjective to barberchairing. At only eight feet from home could easily tear siding or puncture wall of home. A stem with lightening strike, twist, crook, or frost crack could result in barberchairing simply by applying tension to hold back line.
 
No doubt you have some experience, but your question here is reflective that you do not have 100% of the available information needed to make an informed decision. That is why the prudent course for your safety and the homeowners would be to have a professional assist you in the falling only. You can still make money in the cleanup. Lots of arborists enjoy these jobs and commonly refer to them as: "Drop only".
Also a qualified arborist will not be threatened by your desire to learn.

Potential Problem Identifiers:

Other trees, vegetation, structures and hard scapes to be avoided.

Power, Phone, Cable, Sewer, Water, Gas line conflicts.

Structural flaws in upper canopy

History of canopy failure

Root, Sap, Trunk Rot presence

============================

Or post a pic for us to help with falling instructions.

[PowerNewbie]

Like my name says, I'm new at this. I've been wondering why you can't make the felling cut on an angle instead of strictly horizontal, like30- 45 degrees down toward the hinge? This seems like it would give the tree just a little more encouragement to fall where you want it, kind of like using the tree as a wedge. I have tried this a couple of time on smaller diameter trees and it's worked OK. I thought I'd ask the experts - maybe there is some danger that I haven't thought about.

[beenthere]

PowerNewbie
You 'can' make the backcut at an angle. Why you would, I don't know.
Once the wood in the tree is cut with the 'backcut', it's 'out of the picture' so to speak, seems to me.  It's what wood is left to cut that has an affect on where the tree is going to go (except that the backcut is used to place a wedge and 'stabilize' or move the tree. I personally don't like the looks of a stump at an angle (our county crews seem to like to do it that way).  But if you are looking for lumber or product from the log, keeping the wood on that log is better than leaving it on the stump with the angled backcut, IMO. Same with the undercut, as many will make the undercut in the stump-side only, and not in the first log. If there is a good reason for an angled backcut, it escapes my way of thinking.
A walnut cutter I know had to cut walnut trees flush with the ground, which meant no undercut. He was injured real bad when a saw came out of the cut while felling, and he was on his knees (cut tendons on both legs above the knee cap) before chaps were 'in'.

[Jim_Rogers]

Making a "felling cut" or back cut at any angle other than level is not the best way to release a tree from the stump.
The reason why is time.
It takes longer to make a cut on an angle then to make a cut straight, because you are cutting more wood.
Sometimes in certain situations you need to make the felling cut fast and true, to prevent barber chair or something else from going wrong.
Your first cut on this job should be to make the angle cut for the felling wedge on the front of the tree. And at a steep angle more than 45°. Then as you are looking down this cut or down threw the kerf of this cut you make your second cut, which is the level cut to release the felling wedge piece of wood.
Now years ago I would always make the level cut first and the angle cut second. But by doing the angle cut first you can site the angle cut kerf and see the chain saw bar when it meets the level cut with the angle cut. When you see the chain saw bar, and chain, meeting the angle cut you stop sawing. That way your two surfaces of the felling wedge will meet at a point and there will be not under cut of the felling wedge.
If you have an undercut of the felling wedge the tree will move towards the direction you want it to go until this narrow kerf of the chain saw bar closes. Then the tree will bind up and stop moving towards the ground. The only way you can get it moving again is to break the hinge wood and lift the tree up off the stump, a bad move.
After you have your felling wedge cut and your two surfaces meet correctly at one point making a nice edge to the hinge, you should cut the corners of the wedge on the sides of the tree. This is called corner nipping.
If you nip the corners correctly you'll eliminate the risk of a root tear.
A root tear is when the wood on the log above the felling cut and wedge level cut on one or both sides of the tree tears out down the side of the stump towards the roots.
This tearing of this wood can turn or twist the tree causing it to fall in the wrong spot.

Here is a shot of a log with a root tear:



See how the wood has been torn away from the log directly next to the hinge wood.
Also you may be able to see in the above photo that he didn't make the level wedge cut correctly as he went in to far beyond his wedge cut.

Here is a diagram I drew up by hand some time ago about how to cut a leaning tree safely.
You can use the same procedure for a straight tree, with a rope to put tension on the top to force it to lean the way you want it to go.




In the upper left hand corner you can see a top view of the stump and see where the corners have been nipped to reduce the risk of root tear.
Whenever I fell any tree, I make the corner nip cuts.
You don't make it very deep sometimes only 1/4 or 1/3 the width of your bar, but just enough to cut the fibers and stop the root tear from happening.
Again the root tear can change the direction of the tree as it's falling after you have run away from the stump.

I hope some of this information has helped you.

Jim Rogers

[Kevin]

You can get away with an angle cut on smaller trees but the mechanics work different when using a wedge on a larger tree so you should always make the felling cut straight in.

[mrcaptainbob]

Wow, Jim! That's some great info! Never heard of that root tear problem. Will apply that from now on. THanks for the helpful info.

[Ianab]

I think the main danger with the sloping cut is that if you have to drive wedges in to fell the tree there is a posibility that you could split out a section of the stump. The force from the wedge is no longer directly lifting in the cut. A slab could be split of the stump by the sideways force, and then things could get exciting

If you dont have to wedge, it makes little difference except that you had to cut more wood for the same effect.


Ian

[leweee]

I'm with Ian on this one....keep the back cuts perpindiculer to the stem ....just in case you have to use a wedge, End grain being harder to compress makes the wedge preform better. Sorta more bang for your buck with every swing. ....besides those sloping back cuts are a dead give away that the feller needs training.or another vocation. Do it right the first time ....you sometimes don't live to repeat mistakes. The  life you save could be your own. Play safe & have fun.

[Striker]

I recently took down a 100' tall, 42"dbh pin oak that was 5' from a parsonage.My boss was just a wee bit nervous about the whole thing. He asked me if I had any idea what a parsonage costs these days. I said nope and we ain't about to find out.
I put two 5/8's bull ropes about 60' up in the tree. They were tied in at about ninty degrees from each other to pick-ups. I put the winch line from the bucket truck about twenty feet up. I cut my notch. I put tension on the lines. I made sure that my drivers and operators know that from this point on they dont put any more tension on onless the get a signal from me.

I made  my back cut, drive in my wedges, checked to make sure everyone is paying attention, and made sure there was no-one in the drop zone.

When all was ready I made my felling cut. When the tree started moving I gave the signal for the trucks and winch to move as I beat feet out of the way.

All went well as the tree was halfway to the ground before the trucks started moving.

I did everything I knew of the make sure that the tree went where I wanted it to go.

Jeff

[Kevin]

I probably would have had the winch line higher up Jeff.
That's why it's important to maintain a good hinge, once the tree starts to move you'll never keep up with it.

[Striker]

Well I would prefer to have the winchline up higher too.The boss says to put it down low so it will pull the tree faster. In this situation the tree was straight with the weight of the branches heavy to the direction I wanted it to go.

Jeff

[Kevin]

You're right, the farther up and the farther back you can go with the tag  line increases leverage.
Tell the boss to stay home next time.  

[rebocardo]

re:angle cuts

This is the only cut many tree services in GA use, which is one reason insurance is so high. Usually without a notch. What is interesting is when a tree breaks the wood at the front holding it up, slides off the stump into the ground, and then falls anywhere it wants.

I have only seen the result of the next one. The tree leans back into the angle cut, breaks the fibers at the front doing so, and flips backwards over the stump.

One other thing, if a tree leans back on your saw doing an angle cut, good luck getting it wedged.

I like to watch people work if I am driving by, but, if I see them start the angle cut, I usually clear the area.

I watched one guy tied off with a rope around his waist (think I posted this about a year ago) high up in a huge sweetgum doing angle cuts. The tree kept sitting back on the saw because the crew (three kids) below was not able to put enough weight on the rope to prevent it from sitting back on the saw. What a smoke show.