What does a typical forester charge ?

[VA-Sawyer]

I'm located in Eastern Virginia. Shirley's folks are considering having about 12 of the 23 acres here logged off. I have suggested to her mom that they hire the services of a good forester to assist them in the process. Her first question was how much would that cost.  I don't want them to end up feeling ripped off by the loggers and I think a good forester should  actually earn them more than he charges them.
Am I anywhere on the right path here ?  What kind of services should we get  from the forester ? What would be expected charges for such ?
The 'find a forester ' didn't find anyone in Virginia. Where should I look next?

VA-Sawyer

[Buzz-sawyer]

If ya can find a local guy(around 10-15% is thier cut


I made an error in my previous post here I didnt realize this was the foresters section and I offered do it yourself tips and that is incorrect for this section

[sprucebunny]

Forester up here charges $ 45/ an hour. Shouldn't take a guy all that long to mark 12 acres.
There are several books that will give YOU guidelines for marking and sample contracts.
As Buzz says , Your state extension office should be able to help.

[Ron Wenrich]

Yep, ignorance is bliss.  Mark it yourself and compound the mistakes.  I've seen lots of sales that were screwed up by well meaning people.  Letting "marginal stuff for wildlife" will eventually ruin your stand, as will highgrading.  Wildlife survives very well with 1-2 trees/acre.  If you want more, girdle it to eliminate the seed source.

Most guys charge 15% to mark, cruise, organize a sale, solicit bids, arrange the contract and Soil Erosion Plan, collect payments and administer the sale.  Is it worth it?

Most often there will be a higher amount on a bid sale than when you call a mill up and invite them to buy your timber.  Bids are usually lumped into 3 groups.  The top group is really interested and will pay a premium for the timber.  The middle group is bidding their normal price for stumpage.  If your price between the middle and the top is greater than 15%, you're ahead.  The bottom group really doesn't need the timber, but they want to see what everyone else bid.

Now, you can do a lot of that yourself.  But, you should have someone at least mark the timber and cruise it for you.  That will give all perspective buyers a level field for bidding.  You may find someone to mark by the Mbf or by the hour.  I used to mark by the Mbf.  Average day was about 40-50 Mbf.  A lot depends on the timber.

No matter how you sell it, you must have a contract and must have payment up front.  Also, put on either a bond or a cash deposit above the sale price to cover damages.  If the logger won't do this, you don't want him.

When you interview the foresters, find out what they are going to do.  Don't use the first guy you call.  Get at least 3 opinions, if you can.  Make sure they know what you are looking to get from the sale, ie income, aethetics, wildlife habitat, etc.

A preliminary cruise should be the first step, but most people don't do that.  With a preliminary cruise, you would be armed with better data to make management decisions.  Maybe a thinning is better suited at this time or maybe nothing at all.  You might even be able to talk the forester into doing that with the fee.  

[Ron Scott]

Ditto to what Ron W. said above. Hire a professional forester if you are serious about your forest's management if you aren't one yourself.

The "fun" begins when the logging starts and proper sale administration can be time consuming. Maybe more time than you have to spend on it, so hire an experienced professional forester. They will maximize you timber values for you.

[bitternut]

Why do they think part of it needs cutting? From your original question it sounds like you folks are kind of in the dark with the whole process. If it were me I would call a few foresters and invite them to walk the property with me. Then I would work on getting a management plan for the whole property before I even thought about cutting anything. Pick the one that you like the best, assuming they are all qualified and have references. The woods should be managed not just harvested. Maybe you should join a local forest owners association. I belong to one in NY State. One of the smartest moves I ever made.

[Minnesota_boy]

My personal side to the story:
I had a quantity of timber that was beyond prime age for harvesting. The specie was quaking aspen and I knew that clearcutting would get me great reforestation.

I could have had a neighbor do the cutting, he would pay $26 per cord as it sold.  Instead I hired a professional forester.  He charged 13% of the gross sale.  For this he cruised the timber and estimated the amount that should be sold.  He then gave me a list of loggers with whom he had dealt and asked me to add or subtract any that I wished.  I removed one for personal reasons.  The rest were given the opportunity to bid on the sale for the amount listed in the cruise.  The forester estimated the sale price to be $28 per cord.  The high bid was $31.  Ten percent of the estimated amount was due on bid acceptance, with the balance due before cutting began.  Then the forester marked out the property boundaries and the cutting boundaries to prevent trespass and make sure only that which was bid on was cut.  He continued to monitor the sale until completion.  There was more timber than estimated and he collected mill scale slips and I was paid for the correct amount.

Now, since I could have sold the timber for $26 and instead got $31, plus the extra services of the forester, did it really cost me anything to have the sale run professionally?

[VA-Sawyer]

First off, let me say very clearly, I have no personal interest in this land or the timber. I'm just living here with no real vote or say in the matter.
Shirley's folks bought this land back in the late seventy's. They were planning on building on it, but found a 5 acre lot about 1/2 mile away that they ended up building and living on. Shirley got married and after a few years moved to the cabin on the back of the driveway. Ten years later she and her husband had 2 growing kids and needed more room, so they built the house here on the front of the property. Her sister moved into the old cabin. As part of building the new house Shirley's name and her husband's name had to be added to the property title to get the building loan.  Shirley ended up divorced and is still here on the 23 acres. Her folks are thinking that one way to get some value out of the property is by selling the timber.
I started this sawmill business here last year. They didn't ask me about logging off and cutting up the timber but, then I don't have the heavy equipment needed to do the job anyways. I would rather it not happen in the proposed manner, but my opinion doesn't really matter.
I posted my question because if it is going to be logged off, then I want it done in a proper manner. I don't want them to end up feeling that they were ripped of in the process. I'm just trying to put in a helping hand and trying to watch out for Shirley's interest.
So far it looks like they should hire a good forester and expect to pay around 13% of the proceeds for his/her services. There is a fair chance that by using a pro they will get a better price and better compliance thereby offsetting the forester's fee. Does that sound about right ?
VA-Sawyer

[bitternut]

Thats about right and to boot the woods should be better for it in the future. Just think what the woods might look like today if they had hired a forester to establish a plan when they bought the property. Better late than never.

[Ron Wenrich]

Cutting timber to "get value from the property" can be a scary proposition.  If you use that situation when you talk to a forester, you may end up with a high grade operation.  To get the most value, you cut the best trees and leave the trash.  In essence, you're mining timber, not managing the forest.

Some foresters talk a good talk, but some are out there for the buck.  They'll high grade, just like anyone else.  Their out is "that's what the landowner wanted".

Choose your forester as carefully as you would any other professional.  Your interests should come first.

[sprucebunny]

Ron-- How do you tell the good guys from the bad guys?
The forester I hired is a very nice man and seems to know something about ecology.Even though I have pretty much ignored him when he talks about me having a harvest, he keeps bringing it up. I got an educated and conservative logger to look at the land and he couldn't see that I'd get more than $4000 for a responsible cut over a hundred acres or so.That's not much money in relation to the mess it would make. And why harvest (mostly) 6" trees that are growing well? .
I Think people should educate themselves enough so that they have an idea wether what they are being told is right.

[Ron Wenrich]

Educating landowners is a really tough thing to do.  Foresters have tried for years, and have never been too successful.  The crop grows so slow that landowners often have a tough time of grasping any urgency until its too late.  Sounds like the logger is a keeper.

Generally speaking, all salesmen are nice guys.  They wouldn't make a living if they weren't.  So, with 100 acres, do you have a management plan?  Do you have a timber inventory?  What is the forester basing his recommendations for a harvest?  What type of harvest and how much income is he suggesting?  

Generally speaking, forest land has a certain carrying capacity.  There is a certain point where your stand is understocked, fully stocked and overstocked.   This is commonly called the stocking level and is measured by the basal area (BA).  The BA is the sum of the area of the cross section for the trees in an acre.  It sounds complicated, but is easily measured by using point sampling techniques (see the Knowledge Base).  

As long as you are wanting to grow quality timber, you should have your land between the fully stocked and overstocked levels.  But, as trees continue to grow their BA will increase.  As you get at the overstocked level, tree growth will decline and eventually stagnate.  So, to improve growth, some of those trees should be removed to allow expansion of the crown.  Without crown expansion, there will be little tree growth.

Any cutting should concentrate on leaving certain crop trees and removing trees that are lower in quality due to form, canopy position (surpressed trees), or species.  A lot of guys will talk about removing the overstory to release those little trees.  That's OK if they are young trees.  Too often they are old, surpressed trees and won't do well with release.  Diameter does not a good indication of age.

It is very possible that your stand of 6" trees is overstocked.  You might need a thinning to improve growth.  But, you need data to back that up.  Good forest management has more to do with what is left, rather than what is taken.

[sprucebunny]

THAT should be on your page, Ron, as a reminder to all
"Good forest management has more to do with what is left, rather than with what is taken. "

[sprucebunny]

Ron --Have paid over a thousand $ for stewardship plan. Also have two timber cruise reports from previous management.
Just reread the plan and it suggests both commercial and 'pre'commercial harvests.I guess it makes sense.
Where I get confused is the thought of having lots trees cut down and having to pay someone to do it!!
As the logger told me I think I'll "Just enjoy the h&)) out of it and leave it alone" Mostly...
Will probably take the rest of my life to do the Timberstand improvement myself but I'll be breathing fresh air and enjoying the woods.  

[Jeff]

THAT should be on your page, Ron, as a reminder to all
"Good forest management has more to do with what is left, rather than with what is taken. "

sprucebunny, I was thinking the same thing. What a great quote.

[Larry]

Just wondering if much of this goes on?

Forester A – “I can get you $600/MBF on your oak” Goes out to the timber and marks 100 mbf but only shows 50 mbf on the tally.  Few of the smart loggers know the tally is short and adjust there bid up-wards.

Guess it wouldn’t hurt the landowner any but inflates the foresters status at the local coffee shop.

[Ron Wenrich]

Sprucebunny

You might be able to get some federal funds to do the TSI work.  But, you'll still have a cash outlay and won't be able to write it off until a harvest (unless the laws have changed).  Its still a worthy undertaking and pays dividends in the long run.

Larry

Happens all the time.  When I was a procurement forester, you would run up against guys who were quoting high prices.  They backed that up by underscaling the timber or by only taking the butt log and leaving the rest (and only paying for what was taken).

As for consultants, I've seen guys mark a ton of "culls".  A cull tree is a tree that has less than 50% in marketable wood.  That's a pretty rotten tree or one with terrible form.  But, they'll cull a bunch of off specie stuff that has some value.  It bolsters their sale price and their scale.  You get back to the ethics question we have in another thread.

I had one logger complain that he didn't get enough overrun on a sale.  I asked him how much did he get?  Only 3 %.  My response was "*DanG, I'm good"     He expected 10%, and now demands a 30% overrun from his foresters.

[Stephen_Wiley]

.......As for consultants, I've seen guys mark a ton of "culls".  A cull tree is a tree that has less than 50% in marketable wood.  That's a pretty rotten tree or one with terrible form.

To the original poster and anyone else reading this thread.

Ron,s comment above brings back the 'reason' a qualified forester is needed in the management assistance of your forest. A qualified forester should be a part of the management on a continual basis and not just a one time plan designer. Why? Because microclimatic changes, soil disturbances, etc. Will result in changes which can accelerate disease impact and the health vigor of trees.

Cull logs, are a result of structural, climatic and disease influences. The causal agent for the decline in the trees should be recognized by the forester.  A good forester will have pathology training enough to recognize symptoms and signs of disease presence. Where disease is present he will further be able to recommend the amount of 'logging disturbance's' allowable in a specific area.

Any pathogenic (live tissue destroyers) diseases need to identified. In the event of 'root rotting' disease(s), area(s) or
tree(s) should be marked and abatement procedures identified.

All disturbances in these areas will result in exacerbation of the disease. Note: their is no cure for root rotting organisms. Thus abatement or disease management must be based: upon site characteristics/conditions, thourough knowledge of pathogen characteristics, observation of pathogen spread.

Note: if you have a hundred acres, of which 25% of it has an active root rotting pathogen. Disturbance (logging) in this area will result in double the area influenced. By the second rotation of logging all one hundred acres could be embedded with the pathogen.  As 'Ron' already stated: "Ignorance is Bliss"  The ability to bring this infected ground back to a productive harvest crop could take 100+ years.

[VA-Sawyer]

Did I understand that right ? Don't mess with sick trees ? I would have thought that you would want to get a dozer in there and dig them up to get rid of the problem. Sounds like I would have done exactly the wrong thing.
Keep typing folks..... I still got a lot to learn here.  
VA-Sawyer

PS Getting good answers to my question.  

[Ron Wenrich]

I think it was more in the line of don't mess with certain sick trees.  Get to know what's making them sick first, then follow up with a treatment.

Logging is a means of recovering economic damages as well as harvesting.  But, it shouldn't be the only tool in your arsenal.

[SwampDonkey]

Sorry, but I can't think of nut'n else. .

Getting back to rates, I have a few for my area. Something to think about in your situation.

First off, if I'm in charge of a woodlot for an owner I charge a flat rate based on the harvest, which generally is $10/cord. I don't nickle and dime the owner, I integrate all the work. I've gave it alot of thought over the years and I don't feel the owner gets good value by charging by the hour. ($45/hour is quite excessive in most instances). If the owner can see what you've accomplished he doesn't have to watch the clock this way.

My rates are listed under 'Service Details' on my website

Larry I know a small handful of large forest owners that take prey on old folks that must sell land to pay their way in the home. They don't get anywhere near market value. In those cases they probably don't care because procedes goes to government, but the family members get a bit perturbed. I think I posted here earlier about this old gentlemen that got peanuts for 300 acres, which was being bought by a lumber company. That same company wouldn't even pay $300/acre for 7 year old thinning in mixed softwood ground (285 acres), fully stocked. We offered $60,000 for a woodlot (285 acres), but the owner wants $90,000 as his bottom price. If we were a forest company with a sawmill it would be a steal for $90,000. A company doesn't have to purchase timber always with the harvest now attitude, they have to plan for the future to. I know one local company that has land all around this lot.  I know the lot like the back of my hand because I did alot of the management work there,including the plan.  Its been listed for several months. It has access on both ends of the lot and there is a large brook in the middle. It's realy too far away for me to keep an eye on with all the local timber theives around. Some of these companies don't get rich by being above board.

[Phorester]

I'm an Area forester with the Virginia Dept. of Forestry, located in northwestern VA.  

Good advice and discussion from everybody here.  Contact your local VDOF office.  They are in the government pages in your phone book.  Or go to our website, www.vdof.org They should give you a list of consulting foresters that cover the county where the timber is located.

But I'd first have to go with the poster who asked, why are you wanting to cut timber in the first place?  This is sorta putting the cart before the horse.  Get a forest management plan done first, and then see if any of the trees need harvesting to meet the landowners' goals. Trees should be cut in order to improve the forest for whatever the landowner is looking for, not just to make money. If making money is the overriding objective, then a professional forester can help insure that the right trees are left for the future forest. I expect your local VDOF forester will do a management plan, or he may recommend a consulting forester that will.  

Then if trees need to be removed, use a consulting forester to determine which trees need to be cut, and let him handle the sale.  In my end of the state, this is considered a small size sale, and they will charge around 15-20 %commission for a sale of this size. In my area, they invariably get the landowner 200% to 300% more than if the landowner sells it himself, and a better forest left for the future to boot.

[verb]

I am a consulting forester with 23 years forestry experience and a Masters Degree in Forest Economics from Virginia Tech.

I have supervised 3 timber sales in the Williamsburg area this year.  I would be glad to show the landowner the results of these three sales.

I would be willing to visit the tract and meet with the landowner to discuss objectives.  My fee would be $40 per hour for inital visit.  Fee would be waived if landowner has me administer timber sale. My fee for marked timber sales is usually 10% for small sales.  You can reach me at psv42@yahoo.com.

[SwampDonkey]

HI Verb

Welcome to the forum.

If your looking for a possible management job, I have a contact email for a job in your area. A friend of mine who works at Vtech gave me the email address of someone looking to have 650 acres managed. I can give you his name and email if you wish to enquire about the job. Its a professor type and you may know him. Just IM me for info.

Don't forget us at the forum.

[verb]

That sounds great.  I don't know how to IM.  Can you email me?