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Author Topic: What Gives?  (Read 6561 times)

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Offline UrbanLogger

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What Gives?
« on: November 13, 2004, 03:51:38 pm »
I don't want to start anything contentious here since I know they're both sponsors, but what gives with Timberking making absolute claims that their 4 post heads are somehow superior to Woodmizer's cantilevers.

Reason I bring this up is that I just received a sales flyer from Timberking and it shows a picture of a cantilever head wobbling up and down and claims that only their saw "guarantee(s) straight, flat cuts all the time".

I never buy from companies that market themselves by putting down their competition. If the product don't sell on its own merits, it ain't worth squat.

Maybe I'm takin' this too personal since I've got an orange machine, but I think Timberking needs to rethink its marketing strategy.


 
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Offline BBTom

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2004, 04:08:46 pm »
Don't get too upset with them...... They have to try harder, since they are not number one.  Woodmizer has proven its design is good thru over 20 years of success.  You would think that they would use something that was not as well proven to pick on, if they wish to market their product by cutting down their competition.
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Full time sawyer since Jan 2002.

Offline Tom

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2004, 04:42:07 pm »
That is just old marketing jargon that has been around for years.  Some believe it and some don't.

One of Wood Mizer's sales speils used to be that 4 post stayed out of whack because you couldn't get all 4 feet on the head to lay on the rails all of the way down the track.

Have you ever tried to sit in a 4 legged chair on wood floor? :D

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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2004, 05:27:14 pm »
I don't know anything about the cantilever head vs the 4 post.  But, I do know that you should be able to make all 4 feet touch at the same time.  

Those of us that run circle mills have to have all our trucks on the track and running level and straight at the same time.  Otherwise we have big problems.  If we can do it, so should a 4 poster.
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Offline gmmills

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2004, 06:36:29 pm »
    I also got some free literature from Timberking.  What a waste of paper . They really need to re-think their marketing strategy. It wasn't enough to read their comparisons with WM, but also had to read about their powder coating paint process being the best in the business and their bed frame being the heaviest. They do have a very stout frame,but so does the big Baker. That is one heavy mill.

    There is a custom sawyer in my area that bought a Timberking B-20 last spring. I've seen it saw many times and also sharpened a few blades for him. The mill is a really nice mill for it's size and power output. Timberking does have some very competative mills.
     I've seen many 4-posters saw and they do make good lumber. But then again a WM can also make good lumber.   ;)  
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Offline Bibbyman

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2004, 07:30:39 pm »
To be fair,  Wood-Mizer makes much the opposite claims about the four-post sawhead/two-rail frame system.   They have quite a dissertation about the advantages of the monorail, cantilever head system.

Wood-Mizer - Benefits of Monorail

Ive heard all the arguments.  But, the bottom line is - the proof is in quality and consistency of the lumber.  Ive seen hundreds of thousands of board feet of lumber off of Wood-Mizer mills and I know they can perform.

I know one TimberKing owner who is retired and sawed out his new home.  Hed never ran a sawmill before.   Last time I visited with him,  he had about 15,000 bf of hardwood lumber sawn and sticked.   I saw no problem with any of it.  Hed had a couple of minor problems and TimberKing helped him work them out.  TimberKing comes out of a heritage of the old Belsaw Company that goes back a long ways.  
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Offline Furby

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2004, 07:34:53 pm »
Ron,
My 4 poster cuts straight, but most times when I'm cutting atleast one roller is up off the rail. The center of gravity is way to far forward.

Offline fstedy

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2004, 09:41:53 pm »
 ;D ::) :D Life is too short to get upset over a marketing pitch. Both are quality pieces of machinery with excellent company support. When operated by an competent sawyer they will produce quality lumber. All the manufacruters will try to show the advantages of their product. Some like orange some blue some red and black. Me I'm color blind :D ::) ;D  
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Offline fencerowphil (Phil L.)

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2004, 04:14:54 am »
Tha's the gud ole' US of A  :    Marketing.  Advertising.

8)  Rah!   :-*  Rah!    ;D   Rah!

Making us feel cheated, inadequate, or in some other way in need of what is being sold, is just part of the game, huh.

Another company which leans on the 4-post idea a lot is Timber Harvester - the champ in some recent competitions.  Of course their hydraulic drive systems and chain turners coupled with high horsepower carry some weight as well.

The amazing part is that, regardless of the hype,  all the different companies can have a market.   Multi-rips,  Swingers,  Bandmills of different types  all have applications suited to different customers' needs.
Tha's the gud ole' US of A !
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Offline UrbanLogger

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2004, 07:19:09 am »
DanG!

I WAS hopin' to stir up some 'pinions  ;)

And all I can git from you guys is patriotic protection of competitition dissin'   ;D  :D

Guess I'll just go out and wobble my head through some logs  ::)
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Offline fencerowphil (Phil L.)

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2004, 02:05:02 pm »
See,  UrbanL.

We got you to do some real work.

All I can say is I have seen wavy cuts from both mills when pushed too fast, or when guides weren't kept near the bark/entry surface, or when the sharp had gone from the blade.   This happens to 4-posters or to cantilevered WMs.

On the other hand I have seen superb cutting from both types.

The skill of the sawyer.  The skill of the sawyer!
Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Offline AtLast

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2004, 04:31:57 pm »
OK...so u wanna "stir up" some opinions?...well...first off...I dont know if Jeff will allow this to carry on for long....The addage " one mans food is anothers poison" definately applies here...but you asked for opinions...so if you can "dish it" than u better be able to take it...First and formost I want you to reflect on the MANY posts here pertaining to the " problems" others have had...ie: de-barkers.....alignment....and other electrical problems...next I want you to reflect on...well...when I was in school and I was bad the teacher would make us hold erasers out to arm sides with arms extended...eventually gravity verses weight came to play and weight won every time..it is MY opinion that something retaining so much weight  doesnt seem to have an advantage....NEXT I will tell you that I have NEVER had ANY problems with a 4 post system..I have cut over 500,000  b/f of lumber without fail......as far as the "20 years" of time behind whom ever...well...my carhart jeans or JC penny jeans hold up equally if not better than any Levis...therefore the test of time...to me..means absolutely nothing in regard to being any kind of a " quality product"...I will not knock and unit nor pit any unit against any other BUT I will tell you thats it has been my experience to have out cut and had less miss cuts than any other mill that has challanged me here in Michigan...ALSO I will tell you I am a firm believer in machines that use LESS moving parts..especially ones that are electrically motivated..as a licensed helicopter pilot..I can be the first to say that the less electrical parts and the less independant systems there are...the less likelyhood of failure...ALSO I will tell you that when the factor of cost comes into play that MOST will go with what they can affprd....if that wasnt the case that alot of us may probably own a Select or Quality dbl cut mill or better yet a larger circle mill....therfore Mr Urban Logger....I think you need to try to put aside your own interests and let those whom choose to " stray" from what you consider to be the norm and make other choices not be challenged...as far as any marketing stratidgies...well....In my opinion..they are only calling it like THEY see it and as ANY company will do..be it a car or blender or what ever....marketing is marketing and as long as a company stands behind their product than its up to the consumer to deciede which way to go...and dont let your own loyalties take toll on your consience or your ability to disertain typical marketing stratigies. By the way...correct me if Im wrong...BUT...the cantaliver patent for WM ran out last year I believe and as far as I know...there has been NO other manufacturer that chooses to use that style of system....weight...gravity.....Newton had the right idea...wobble or not...as long as youre doing what u like and happy with the results than none of this other stuff matters....on the other hand again I remind you to reflect on the MANY posts of the problems or modifications that MANY have had with...well...lets just say that more times that not the problems seem to make most shal we say ..orange in the face"... ;D

Offline Furby

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2004, 08:03:37 pm »
AtLast,
There may as you say, be more problems, simply because there are more mills out there of a given make. ::) ;)

Offline pasbuild

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2004, 10:22:15 pm »
If its mechanical its going to brake, there has always been more repair shops then manufacturing plants ;)
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Offline Tom

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2004, 04:39:24 am »
One should always keep in  mind that "everybody" has a better idea.  That doesn't stop with manufacturers.  Every customer of a product will bend your ear on how he can make it better.  
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Offline UrbanLogger

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2004, 06:13:33 am »
AtLast,

I hear what you're saying . . . I think.

My Sears boots and thriftstore Carharts do me just right. As do my homemade trailer and antique Towmotor.

The point of my post was not necessarily whose design was the best but rather WHY any manufacturer needed to make criticism of a competing design a central argument in their sales pitch.

I'm sensitive to marketing right now as I'm shopping for a bunch of support equipment--straightline-rip, moulder, kiln and 2-side planer. So far, I haven't come across this kind of negative advertising with the exception of Woodmaster and TimberKing--aren't they related?

All I'm saying--perhaps for the benefit of sponsors that are listening--is negative advertising is a turnoff to me.

Gotta go set up my mill in a funky backyard today to do a 3-log, $200 minimum job.

I'm sure glad it'll only take me 10 minutes to setup and 5 to tear down.  

Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Offline sparks

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2004, 11:31:20 am »
Now you'll hear from Wood-Mizer. This type of advertising is everywhere in any industry. It always will be. If people bought strictly off advertising there would only be one car, truck, bus, airplane, washer and dryer, etc, etc. You do your research and you weigh the benefits, ask questions and come to a conclusion as to which product to buy. The foresrty forum is a good place for this because you get an owners perspective of different types of equipment with no contempt toward another brand. I do not buy from any company that talks down of another. Tell me about your product and let me decide if it will work for me better than another. Wood-Mizer promotes our products on a long history of success with our design. It may not be the design everyone wants but over 35,000 owners do like it.
In closing, if you bought a mill, it cuts your lumber the way you want it and the company is there when you need them, then you made a very good purchase. We don't want to sell everyone a Wood-Mizer, we just want to sell you yours.
Thanks all.
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Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2004, 11:51:30 am »
  Very well put, Sparks. It is a hard thing to talk about "certain" features, and not have a bunch of negative comments thrown around. This place has the finest bunch of folks hang out here.  Nothing gets said that causes an argument. "Crisp" discussion livens things up, occasionally, and THAT is good.  8) 8)
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Offline AtLast

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2004, 01:28:58 pm »
Well....as i stated...1 mans food is anothers poison...I also stated that beyond " advertising" its ALWAYS up to the consumer to make that final decision....I personally dont see it as one company down playing any other company...simply that THEY...the advertiser...is calling as THEY see it...NOT that they are trying to knock any other manufacturer....as I stated in my post...the bottom line is WHAT DO YOU CHOOSE TO USE....I think all of use are intelligent enuf to see beyond ANY marketing and privy enuf to information to make a choice of are own as stated by others on this post...the fact still remains that the buyer is only responsible for his own actions and or choices....i personally weighed the " facts" and found that MY choice was to go with a unit ( built by a company that doesnt make marketing statements) and am MORE than pleased with the choice I made... I personally still stand by my choice and through my exposure to " ther units" am QUITE confident that there are mills for " hobbiests" and there are "production mills"..there are pl;enty of " better yet" units" that I THINK most of us counldnt afford....there are plenty of avenues for each of us to choosew from...its just a matter of those that want to be shall we say...common ground...and those of us that see beyond that and make our decisions accordingly....I DO know that I have ran each of our sponsers units....and based on what I saw ....choose to not be " orange in the face" and allow others to be " blue with envy"...LOL..ok ok...so a lil play on words...BUT I DO rely on the fantastic group here on the FF that have proven time and time again to have a great sense of humor and ALL realise that we are happy in OUR choices...and as long as we are makin saw dust and rollin in a little doe...than the rest is simply tripe....

Offline Jeff

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Re: What Gives?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2004, 01:53:54 pm »
So how would ya like to be in my shoes?  I am not sure if I'll ever be able to run a commercial mill again. I hope so, but I am not sure I'll ever be able to endure the repetition. Again, I am having thoughts of being my own boss running my own portable mill sawing logs the way they should be sawn.  How do I choose?  I can't. Marketing means nothing to me. I don't follow the thin kerf song and dance, I like that 9/32's of an inch of steel plowing through 6 inches of log every time my sawblade revolves. ;D (but I sure like to see them bandsaws cut) 8)  My decisions, if I were free to make them, would be on what I think I need after examining my entire situation. Timber type, possible markets, cost, ease of use, ease of up-keep, customer support and satisfaction, all the things you all would consider before making a choice.

I have to consider the fact that like it or not, my decision might somehow effect this board. I simply don't know how to handle that. I have a hard enough time figuring out weather a thread like this is going to effect a sponsor adversely.  I am confident it wont because of the men that stand behind each of these companies. All of them like you, are members of the Forestry Forum. All like you, make their choices and decisions with much forethought to the outcome, only wishing the best for their customers and their companies.  

Do you think I could buy a Wood-Mizer without comment?  A  Baker or TimberKing? A Peterson or Double Cut? Do you think my choice would have anything to do with marketing?

Choices are presented to us in many different ways. Some may appeal to us, some may not, some may really find a way to trip your trigger as in how this thread got started.  Whats wrong with having all of these bits of information out there to sift through I don't know, but I am sure glad when I go out to a big parking lot full of vehicles, I can find mine. Its red. It says the forestry forum on it. I picked it out myself.
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