I had a forestor look at my timber

[Rod]

And he said I have between 1500-2000 board feet per ac.When I bought it in 97 I had 0.His crew is coming out this week to do a timber crusie

[SwampDonkey]

Rod:

What were you intending to do with your lot? Space it, pre-commercial? 2000 board feet is about 4 cord/acre. If its hardwood be sure and not thin it when its too short, < 20 feet tall, too much suckering and regrowth.

I've been working in 14 year old pre-commercial thinning, now ready for a commercial thinning. The age of the trees is around 35 years. There is 36 m^2/ha basal area, which translates into 32 cords/acre, roughly. The site is being monitored for its response to the thinning, root growth and levels of atmospheric CO2.

Good luck with your cruise results. Grow'm big and tall.

[Rod]

SwampDonkey,thats1500-2000 DBH saw timber,and saw timber is going for about $250m average.Now the way I've got it figured,the timber is growing at about160 board feet a year per ac.I was thinking I might sale out to the coal or timber companys.

[SwampDonkey]

Rod:

Ok, I keep forgetting you guys talk saw timber, not including pulp. Up here our hardwood is over 70 % pulp due to high grading on woodlots and old growth on government land. Hardwood management is a new concept up here. Saw timber goes for CDN $250-650/thousand up here, soft maple and beech are the lower priced. Good luck with your timber sale.

[Rod]

SwampDonkey,is stumpage prices?

A few weeks ago their was an auction down the road on some timber and I thought they gave way to much for it.

Anyway the little saw mill was the high bidder but the big sawmills were bidding high too.

its only 50 ac and it went for $62,000 :ofor what looked like to me were pole trees

[Rod]

SwampDonkey,what I ment by a small sawmill is the owner cuts about 6 million board feet a year.He was bidding against guys like coastal lumber

http://www.coastallumber.com/Default.htm

and allegheny wood products

http://www.alleghenywood.com/

I got a feeling timber is on the rise,but I could be wron tho

[SwampDonkey]

They pay $50-60,000 up here for stumpage on 50 acres. I've cruised quite of few of'm. If you can buy one cheaper its been clearcut or the seller knows nothing about the woods business, or he's an old timer with 1940's figures in his head. My grandfather figured 50 acres of hardwood land was only worth $1000 and he paid $300 for 200 acres in the 1930's.

[Rod]

I was using the stumpage price history of stumpage prices


http://www.wvforestry.com/Stumpage%20Prices.PDF

[SwampDonkey]

I was looking at your stumpage report, and I've seen others from the states as well. But, I can't for the life of me figure why red oak is worth more then white oak. White oak is superior wood. As far as white oak is concerned , we only have bur oak up here which is endangered in my region. Your stumpage rates have climbed for your sawlogs over the last few years, just like they have here. Most folks offer half the mill delivered price for stumpage on sawlogs and veneer up here.

Our marketing Boards in the province of New Brunswick maintain prices and changes. At our board the website has a search by mill name or species.

http://www.cvwpa.ca

There is also a valueable resource with the Maritime Lumber Bureau which gives weekly/monthy market updates. You have to be a member, which costs around $400 a year I think. It gives info for the New England states as well.

http://www.mlb.ca/

[Sawyerfortyish]

SwampDonkey I agree 100% about the white oak i'll take it over red anyday. Its cut more solid higher up in the tree than red. But here there getting crazy on price. I've heard of a buck a foot on red oak on the stump. Not just for one job but i'm hearing of it from a couple directions. With the cost of fuel and trucking I can't see how they can come out of it making money.

[SwampDonkey]

Sawyerfortish:

Are they high grading for veneer wood or something? I suspect there is alot of competition for the wood as well. I also suspect that the number of landowners that participate in the forestry sector are declining to. This is making cut-troat competition between contractors. The numbers of producers are slowly declining here. Once alot of them reach retirement there are going to be alot fewer. Most folks around, just don't depend that heavily on income from the woods. Take for example at our marketing board, 80 % of those that cut wood annually harvest less than 300 cords of wood. I think over the last few years about 430 producers have been harvesting wood. Its been holding at that level for at least 10 years now, but took a big drop a few years before. There are around 4000 woodlot owners in the two counties, 45,000 province-wide.

Pretty soon all our lumber and paper will be coming from Asia as those countries can produce it cheaper. In turn they will lift themselves out of poverty as long as some dictator or unknown doesn't keep wages below the poverty line.

Maybe we need a stock market crash to renew ourselves.

[Rod]

SwampDonkey I don't know why red oak sales for a higher price then white oak. I'd say just wait a while and people will change their minds were they will like white oak

[Gary_C]

As far as the price difference between white and red oak, the white oak is too hard to work for both commercial furniture people and hobby woodworkers. A old timer I know that sells to walk in woodworkers told about the guy that came in and asked for red oak and he convinced him to buy white oak because it was better and cheaper. When the guy came back for more wood, he asked him how the white oak worked out and he said "good, but this time I want some red oak."

Red oak stumpage is getting out of hand for price. A recent sale here went for 80 cents on the stump for 100,000 bdft and it was a scaled sale, no overruns.

[Ron Wenrich]

Its all supply and demand.  I remember when white oak was a lot higher than red oak.  Red oak was considered junk wood.  But, the demand for white oak was coming from Europe.  Now, the Europeans have enough of their own, and demand for white oak has dropped.

In my area, red oak cuts much better grade.  The veneer grade also holds out much better.  Those catfaces on white oak lead to too much defect.  My best white oak comes from chestnut oak.  When growing in a good location, there is really good grade in those logs.

1500-2000 bf/acre indicates you have a stand of small sawtimber.  Now is not the time to harvest those trees.  Now is the time to let them grow.  A medium-sized sawtimber stand will average more in the 6-7 Mbf/acre range.  A lot would depend on site.

There is no veneer value in a small tree, and very limited grade value.  You need a tree that that is 14" dib to make a veneer or #1 sawlog.  That takes a 16" dbh tree.  A #2 sawlog comes from a 14" dbh tree.  If you can't get the grade at the mill, then they aren't going to give you much on the stump.

If $250/Mbf sounds like a lot to you, then you should really get jacked up on the $450-500 that they get around here.  But, they aren't cutting the guts out of small sawtimber stands at those prices.  They are cutting mixed hardwoods with an average dbh of 17-18".  Anything smaller, and the prices go down drastically.

You can figure your trees will add a diameter class about every 10 years.  Just as you make a lot of money when the pulpwood crosses into the sawtimber, you make a lot when sawtimber crosses into veneer.  Just be careful that you aren't killing you best milkers.

[Rod]

I understand what your saying Ron.

[SwampDonkey]

That makes sense Ron, as far as red vs white oak and price. I couldn't make any experienced comparisons between the two species as far as sawing for grade. No white oak up here, 'cept bur. I was gonna say red oak was junk wood cause its strictly pulpwood here unless someone uses a portable mill on site for his own use or gets it from a mill yard in small quantities sorted out. Don't come across very much of it unless you harvest along the lower Saint John or Miramachi Rivers. In which case its primarily from small woodlots in farming communities here. I have seen some nice mixed stands of oak and maple, but they are scattered.  I'm trying to baby some on the woodlot, but I'll be pushing up daisies long before they are ready for the knife. It took the marketing board a while to convince producers that sorting out logs pays, versus sending it as pulp. That's because of the games sawmills had a history of playing with producers. And the price margins were not that great either, at first. Producers where saying it was worth more as firewood than sawlogs. Just like farming potatoes and selling to the big processors.

[Sawyerfortyish]

SwampDonkey one job i'm talking about is in NY. The trees wasn't that good but as you said it was a cut throat job a lot of bidders. Some guys will beat up there equipment work all week long in the woods for a couple hundred $$. Not me theres always another job someplace.
 As far as red vs white oak give me red oak logs to sell and white or rock oak to saw. I can blow away any local logger as far as bidding on timber but when I get up against another mill it gets very competitive

[Oldtimer]

Very interesting reading here guys.

I am about to start a 50 acre Red Oak lot. It is being run by a forester. I had told the landowner that for the time we talked about between harvests (20-25 years), the low quality overall, and the fact she needs $$, I'd cut around 60,000' including the pallet. She wanted the forester to oversee the job, and he convinced her to cut every 10-15 years, and only cut 30,000' now. I dis-agree that a 10-15 year cycle is right for a red oak lot. I feel it should be 20-30 years. But, she wants it his way, and wants me to cut it. I am getting $225 to cut, skid, buck, and truck the Veneer grades, $180 for #1 & #2 sawlogs.

Get this. The forester told me a straight job (tri-axle) should haul 5000' of Red Oak easy. I told him it will carry 3500' and no more legally. And I should know, I have sent it out with a few loads of oak before. He also says the trucker is getting way too much to truck at 50 per. He says 37 is about right. Also, he has never logged here in NH, just a summer in Washington state. Wow.

[Ron Wenrich]

When I was doing field work, I would never tell a logger how to do his work.  I would work with him and I never had any problems.

You're in colder climates and probably have a slower growth rate on your oaks.  We used to try to go for thinnings every 10-15 years.  The biggest problem with thinnings is the damage done by skidding.  

From a forest standpoint, log length skidding does the least amount of damage to the residual stand.  It costs more, but i would prefer to see that.

We would also knock the stocking back to about 70 sq ft/acre.  That leaves the stand fully stocked.  It doesn't encourage too much reproduction, but I can go back in and thin in another 15 years.  Thinnings should take out the junk and leave crop trees.  

One thing to remember about foresters, most of them talk about footage in International, and loggers talk in Doyle.  I still think that any forester that is managing timber should spend at least 6 months in a mill and 6 months setting chokers or cutting, just to round out the experience.  

[SwampDonkey]

I agree with Ron as to the purpose of the initial thinning(s) and the experience of the forester. I'm also wondering if there was an operating plan on paper that was reviewed by all parties. I like to walk the lot with the logger to see if he is able to do what we want done. I want him to think about it for awhile and not get all gung-ho and find out he can't make money. I'de like to think that an operating plan is subject to change, but there has to be some constraint used by the forester. If I'm looking after a lot I'm in charge because the landowner hired me for that job. Trust me there are very few jobs up here that require a forester because the motive for most landowners is $$. I also know a few loggers that provide sustainable forestry and don't need anyone looking over their shoulders. I can always tell from the first few phrases from a guy's mouth whether or not we can work together. If I sense we can't than I look elsewhere.

cheers

[Oldtimer]

When I was doing field work, I would never tell a logger how to do his work.  I would work with him and I never had any problems.

You're in colder climates and probably have a slower growth rate on your oaks.  We used to try to go for thinnings every 10-15 years.  The biggest problem with thinnings is the damage done by skidding.  

From a forest standpoint, log length skidding does the least amount of damage to the residual stand.  It costs more, but i would prefer to see that.

We would also knock the stocking back to about 70 sq ft/acre.  That leaves the stand fully stocked.  It doesn't encourage too much reproduction, but I can go back in and thin in another 15 years.  Thinnings should take out the junk and leave crop trees.  

One thing to remember about foresters, most of them talk about footage in International, and loggers talk in Doyle.  I still think that any forester that is managing timber should spend at least 6 months in a mill and 6 months setting chokers or cutting, just to round out the experience.  

The scale is in international here. The lot I mentioned was cut hard  and high graded about 30 years ago.

You say log length. You mean no longer than 32' ? Two 16" logs max? There is a clause in the contract that says the forester can designate 32' when needed.
I always walk a lot several times, and try to do it at least once on a sunny day. A dark day will make you over-estimate the volume in a stand. I choose my roads and bump trees first, and look for areas I want to avoid like wet spots, high quality young growth, and stone walls.
I have worked in a Sappi chipper, two planer mills (one was an IP white pine mill, a powerline trimming co, a residential tree service, and now logging straight for 8 years.

Sorry for hijacking this post,I'm done.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Ron I to would like to see all foresters work in a sawmill for a period of time and then go cut trees scaled by another forester and try to get close in footage to what they say is there. Then maybe they would see that third log they try to sell me in an oak tree most of the time is just firewood and should not even be included in a footage scale.
I really don't like International scale you have to be very careful when sawing it to get the footage out of a log that it's scaled for. When you buy on doyle scale I always got about 10% overrun when sawing and that made up for a bad log now and again that I always seemed to have.

[SwampDonkey]

The thing about doyle though is it favors the buyer on smaller logs and comes closer to International with diameters above 14 inches.

We use Bangor Rule sometimes, from Maine, and New Brunswick log rule. The New Brunswick scale favors the buyer.

My cruises always give the stumpage buyer some leaway on volume. Never has a lot been cut that had less than my cruise volume. This is because I use 1 site class (volume curve) shorter than the potential for that site. If I use the actual its very close, but does not leave the buyer with much latitude on his bid price. I had 2 fellows eye ball it and said there can't be that much volume there. They cut the lots and it was a hair more volume on both sites. As far as hardwood sawlogs, I only count on the butt log in board footage and 60 % of the tree goes into the pulpwood formula (cords). My log volumes always work out more when cut because some trees have more than that butt log, but its a bonus to the producer. If the run is pretty good than the landowner will get a better stumpage price. Generally those lots are cleared, which I have nothing to do with.  On some lots the arrangement is 1/2 the mill delivered price for logs and veneer for stumpage, which works out better for the landowner. On woodlots up here your not getting rich on cutting hardwood sawlogs or veneer, its pretty minuscual volumes. Anything above 14 inches is a culvert, 95% of the time. Our sawlog markets are between 8" and 14", veneer is 10" and up. Even had the rare 19 or 20" top on a sugar maple with 1/3 heart and the buyers reject the log. They just aren't interested. You look at the logs and veneer in the yard of the Marketing Board and they are baby trees compared to yours down south, and probably ours are 90 - 150 years old. In fact I know they are.

[Ron Wenrich]

32' sawlogs can work, but it depends on terrain, time of year and the operator.  Some guys can't even drive through the woods without damaging something.

The problems most foresters have with cruising hardwoods is they have that 8" top log driven into their head.  Most trees don't have a log that small, and those that do just ain't worth cutting.  But, they'll cruise that little log and add to their tally.  Mills that chase those 8" logs will go broke.

I've only had one guy complain about a cruise.  He only got a 3% overrun.  He expected 30%, since this is what his foresters were getting.  

[SwampDonkey]

That guy shoulda been greatful he was getting some accurate cruising for a change.

My overruns are no more than 10 %. On the west coast when we cruised, the accuracy was such that we were within 3 % of the scale at the dry land sort (average). I don't remember that being a requirement though. But our blocks were check cruised quite often by the Ministry for accuracy and proper calls on defect and quality. It kept the Ministry of Forest happy as well as the forest company. In the 80's up there, it was a free for all with massive 200+ ha clearcuts on those mountains. They are the only province I know that publishes a cruising manual including pathology ID and quality guidelines. Here in New Brunswick I've seen some pretty wacky cruising methods, and their volumes reflect it.

[Rod]

oldtimer,here the loggers get $130 a 1000 for cut skid and bucking,I asked my logger friend who just started on an 8500 ac beside me.

timber futures are at a 10 year high so it looks like lumber should be going up in price

http://www.housingzone.com/news2.asp?topicId=18298&docId=l:224928666

[Ron Wenrich]

$130/Mbf is a mighty high price for just cutting, skiddiing and bucking.  Around here its more $75/Mbf.  For $130, you would have to add in trucking.

As for lumber futures, yes, they were high around the time of the hurricanes.  Call it speculation.  But, you have to keep on following those prices. They change from day to day.

November lumber futures hit a high of 413 back on the day after Labor Day.  Yesterday's close was 330.5  That's about where it was before hurricane season.  Either there's too much supply or limited demand.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Lookout for the future I think after the election no matter who wins everything will go fluee. With fuel prices 2.00 a gal how can you truck very far for a better market. One of my trucker friends filled up the other day1098.00$ I asked him why he couldn't dribble a little more to make it 1100.00 even

[Rod]

$500 and acre has been the high bid.

[SwampDonkey]

HI Rod:

Is it small spaced out wood? That's in line with woodland here that has mixed growth of poplar, hardwood and softwood and high graded. Mature softwood ground or nice mature hardwood (rare for my area) goes for $1000-1200/acre here for stumpage.

[Rod]

hi SwampDonkey,it's 290 acres with 2000 board feet per acre at 16'' DBH.2 large timber compamies want to buy it.7 years ago when i bought it it had just had been timbered and didn't have any saw timber then

grows back fast i think.

[SwampDonkey]

Sure am curious what the diameter distribution is on that ground. What was it, cut by diameter limit back then (high grade)? 16 inch at dbh is pretty big hardwood for up this way. Most mature sized Hwd on woodlots up here run at 8 to 10 inch dbh in my area before they get logged. If it's a smaller run than that, it's usually all wacked for pulp unless it has over 96 ft^2/acre basal area. Hard to judge residual quality from the previous harvest based on diameter. Not all 16+ inch trees are sawlogs.

[Rod]

just about everyone cuts high grade,mostly red oaks.And the last time they logged it it was high graded down to 12''..Saw logs around here are 12'' dbh but for some reason they are only counting to 16''dbh.the loggers say they go in the whole cutting anything less the 12''.As for the quality they didn't say.My neghbor has started and 8000 acre  logging job beside me and him and 3 other guys working for him have been taking out 2 truck loads of red oaks just about every day for the last month.

[Rod]

My logging neighbor sure does have the county road tore up too,he needs chains on the log trucks to get them in and out. :oI hope he makes some money were he can get some trucks that don't smoke so bad.

[SwampDonkey]

That leads me to wonder how long they think the woodland can stand continuous high grading. Your not long (well probably longer than most of us will live) putting yourself into a situation where it's going to be hard getting good sawlogs off those old harvest sites. Historically, that's what they do here too unfortunately. Land owners are just as much to blame as the loggers.

[Ron Wenrich]

For some reason, loggers can't make money cutting trees under 12", but won't let them grow over 16".  Something wrong with that thinking.

High grading is the norm for many areas.  Diameter limit cuts are the way 50% of the timber gets sold in PA.  That's the way they did it before, that's how they do it now.  But, in years gone by, red oak wasn't worth anything.  Breaking that high grading thinking is next to impossible.  Loggers actually think they are doing good management work in most cases.

The stuff that wasn't cut before was probably maple.  Back 7 years ago, that wasn't worth much.  Now it is.  

At $500/acre, you're gettting $250/Mbf.  Let it grow until you have some decent sawlogs, then you'll be getting a lot more.  There is no veneer value in 16" dbh trees.  

We're paying about $450-500/Mbf for timber.  But, the average dbh is around 18".  Is it worthwhile to leave your trees for another 10-20 years so that you can get a higher return?

[SwampDonkey]

Maple and yellow birch Veneer starts at 10 inch tops and as short as 4'4" up our way. Yellow birch is favored at that smaller size because heart doesn't matter. Maple has to have less then 1/2 heart. I agree maple was considered 99 % pulpwood up until about 10 years ago in our area too. Some specialty markets would buy small quantities for more than pulp price, but you wouldn't get rich on it. Those specialty markets came along as fits and farts, sometimes smelling as bad too. They were local markets for furniture or tool handles.

[ohsoloco]

This is all pretty new to me.   Could someone explain high grading  

[Ron Scott]

High Grading is the selection and harvest of only the best trees (high-grade trees) in the forest stand, leaving low quality and nonmerchantable trees to occupy the site and make up the future forest.

"High grading" may have both genetic implications and long-term economic or stand health implications.

[Ron Wenrich]

You want the long answer or the short one?

High grading is a "thinning" where they take the best and leave the rest.  

This can come about by 2 methods.  One is diameter limit cutting.  That's where you cut everything over a certain diameter.  I've seen down as low as 12", which is usually a nearly a clearcut.  

Most foresters use diameter limit cutting, but few will admit it.  I've seen sales where there wasn't an 18" tree left on the site.  That's because 18" trees fetch a veneer cut and are taken.  

In some instances diameter limits are OK, where there are constraints on the interest rate.  I don't like them, and prefer to leave healthy trees.

The other type of high grade is where you go in and just take the very best.  I've seen this where loggers come in and leave the "young" trees for the next forest.  The problem is that usually they are old, surpressed trees that won't release well.  Or they will leave trees of poor quality in form or species.  

The problems that arise from high grading is there is a general reduction in your good quality seed trees.  If you keep on leaving junk, that's all you'll have for seed stock for the next generations.  Eventually your seedsource is severely depleated from a genetic standpoint.

We had one logger in the area that paid a very high price for timber.  We never could figure out how he did it until we saw one of his jobs  He only took the butts and left the rest of the tree lay.  He only paid for what he took.

[ohsoloco]

Thanks Rons  

I'm always learning something new here, and it sounds like I have a lot more to learn before I were to thin any of my trees.  I really don't want to cut many of em...if at all.  I'd really like to keep my small woodlot healthy, and couldn't bear to see all of the mature trees gone.  

There are state game lands that border the back of my property, and even without the white blazes it's not hard to see where the property line is  :-/  My neighbor said the state land was formery owned by the audubon society, and they had it logged before selling it.  The loggers contacted the previous owners of my property as well, but I'm happy to say they refused any cutting  

[Ron Wenrich]

I guess the Audobon society was done looking at birds.  Typical thing to do is to gut the land of assets before turning it over to someone else.  You would think a conservation organization would act differently.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, the Audubon is usually "anti-logging" (of everyone else's timber).

[Gunny]

I wonder if most of the people scaling our woodlots are still using the International 1/4" or Doyle systems.  I'm a former certified tree farmer--and current broker/private woodlot resource consultant-- and found those scales to be useless when calculating stacked lumber that was produced off my portable bandsaw mill.  Scale "errors" ranged from 50-300%, depending on whether we scaled logs or standing timber.

Advocating intense resource management for all private woodlot owners is essential if we are to realize the maximum potential of our primary renewal resources.  Inasmuch as we seem to have no current shortage of portable bandsaw mills which will come to our properties, I can not imagine the serious woodlot owner selling his/her logs to any third party, however they might be processed.  Just compare the price of a quality 4/4" sawn Red Oak board, in terms of BF return, to that gained in selling logs-in-a-landing or stumpage.

Also, the "by-products" of the sawn log (slabwood and sawdust, etc.) have become viable sources of additional incomes for the private owner.  A simple ad in any local Buyer's Guide will often sell all you can produce.

I guess the key is to tally-in the value-added options and proceed with learned caution from there.  I once, not so long ago, wrote a major article for a national magazine which had a working title of "The Ten Tree Tally" in which I detailed that I made more income in a single year processing only ten overmature oak trees into marketable products than I would make selling my entire stumpage to a third party.  It remains true to this date.  I hear they call it "thinking outside the box" nowadays.

Happy Holidays to all.  

[beenthere]

Gunny         Welcome to the forum.
Do you have a reference to the article you wrote?

From your opening line, about Int'l and Doyle rule, I don't understand why both are 'useless' for scaling woodlots, in your opinion. Care to elaborate what people should use to 'scale our woodlots'?  

[Gunny]

Thanks much for the welcome.  

One of several written can be found within the Sept/Oct 2000 issue of Tree Farmer magazine.  It's located from pp16-20.  The editor, a fine individual, retitled this one "A Better Way: From Raw Timber to Great Returns."  As I dig through the stack, I'll be happy to locate more for your reading pleasure. )

Inasmuch as the scales simply do not even approach accuracy--when actual stacked lumber is considered--I've always wondered how it is that these particular ones mentioned--and less often the "Scribner"--are even allowed by the USDA, if they're the regulating agency.  Can you imagine your gas pump registering 10 gallons when you only got 7 in your tank?  

Woodmizer illuminated this discrepancy years ago within their published materials relative to the sawn timber recovered from "identical" logs when using a circular blade vs. a bandsaw mill.  I think they got 51% more lumber with the band blade.  And, though I owned and operated a different brand of bandsaw mill, my recoveries--actual baords taken and stickered from any log--were always far greater than any of the scales indicated--"Small end, inside bark."  The discrepancy increased significantly when the scales were used to estimate lumber in standing 2nd and 3rd generation timber.  

Even the registered forester I allowed onto my tree farm was amazed, having witnessed the anamoly.  He went back to his profs at Mich Tech to research the glaring problems.  

Essentially, if we are paid, as woodlot owners, for 100MBF of product, and the producer then converts it to 150MBF volume--plus the marketable by-products--we've encountered a major situation with the measuring device(s).  Those scales may well have worked well with the virgin and massive timber cruised a couple of centuries ago but they certainly beg for immediate modifications into this 21st century, no?

Hope you're able to locate the article.  The editorial staff was always very careful to publish only what could be considered "valid" and timely.

Happy Holidays.  Be safe out there.

[SwampDonkey]

[edited Dec 17, 2004 by SwampDonkey]

I know, I made a quick eye-ball comparison between the doyle and international, and doyle under estimates log volumes of stems under 14 inches by a wide margin. When we use Bangor rule up this way and it's much closer to the actual scale, but still favors the buyer. Our New Brunswick log rule has always been known to favor the buyer as well, and it's worse than Bangor rule. If given the chance to choose between scales, everyone uses Bangor rule on sawlogs (the local mill did not adjust price between these 2 scales) and weight on treelength wood. When cruising timber we use volume curves developed by research on form and species growth characterics averaged over the province. Site index is also incorporated. We don't cruise timber based on sawlogs, we cruise all merchantable timber down to 3.5 or 4 inches at dbh. Some mills take 4 foot down to 3.5 inches on the top and some take it down to 2.5 inches for tree length. What I found disturbing is that most cruisers only tally trees up to 48 inch DBH and anything above that is still 48 dbh. :-/ That's in conflict with those at DNR looking to find volumes and stems/acre of nesting/cavity trees isn't it? :-/ If the cruiser is careful with his prism and his measurments the volumes work out pretty close. It's not a perfect system, but it works well and folks trust it. What people don't trust are slopy cruisers, and I've found that out when doing followup on private woodlots with management plans. Some of the figures are just crazy, you can tell they never left the pick-up.Three weeks ago I was on a lot where the logger was cutting 15 year old jack pine by hand and nothing was larger than 5 inches on the stump. Now that can't be very profitable because its strictly pulp.

cheers

[beenthere]

Gunny
I found this one in Sawmill & Woodlot with an article close to  your title indicated.
"The Legacy of the Ten Tree Tally"
http://www.sawmillmag.com/current_issue.html?issue_id=16

Is it similar or the same as the Tree Farmer one?

Your observations are not surprising, but I doubt they negate the use of the Int'l 1/4" scale to estimate the board foot volume in a log or a tree. No one has said one cannot get more, and one way is to narrow the kerf from 1/4".  The extra lumber is overrun.  Over the years there have been many, many formulas and rules to estimate the volume of wood products in a log or in a tree. None have been perfect, as the products vary as well as the processing operations vary. A better rule for whatever product will always be sought. You apparently have some ideas, but not much is gained by indicating the USDA USFS and others are erroneous in using the rules we have. They are valid rules, IMO.
Apparently not in your opinion, which is fine.
Let's hear what you have to offer.

[Phorester]

HIGHGRADING can also be described as weeding a vegetable garden by taking out the vegetables and leaving the weeds.  If that's done several times over the decades, about the only management option left is to clearcut the highgraded foest and start over with a new one.

Trying to create a more accurate log rule or trying to force the legal use of just one rule I don't think will ever work. That's trying to change the entire timber industry, and I think it would never be accepted.   There's a couple hundred log rules been developed over the centuries in the USA.  A vast majority created by timber buyers, and they generally favor them over the seller.  

But as long as the landowner knows the limitations of a particular rule, then you have an informed seller selling to an informed buyer - one definition of a fair business deal. But quite often the private landowner does not know.

The International 1/4 inch rule is more accurate than most other rules because it's one that takes into account the taper of a real log.  Doyle and Scribner, the other most common rules used in the USA, do not.  

[Gunny]

Actually, the more focused article as to what I've experienced (as opposed to any opinions I might have) would be found in the article beginning on page 30 of the June/July 1999 issue of  the Independent Sawmill & Woodlot Management magazine entitled "Fraud and Forest Councils."  As I approach those "Golden Years", I've had the good fortune to finally begin to comprehend the difference in meaning and application between the terms "opinion" and "experience."

Since we all seem to agree that there's a good deal of--often considerable--discrepancy in the application of current volume measurements, this might be a good place to begin discussing future options.  Which of us has not walked the plunder of a recent "harvest", only to shake our heads at the blatant destruction.  

"Informed Consent", as "Phorester" suggests, is a fine place to start.  The problem, experience indicates, is that that information parlayed into "consent" often fails to mention all the other timber which is removed without consent.  Timber volume and its "harvest" may be the only commodity on the planet which is so mysteriously measured--and always, as these last posts relate, to the buyer's favor.  Private woodlot owners are often subjected to the tactics industrialized countries exclusively dealt third-world nations.  

As with most things in life, the key to comprehension comes from fundamental education.  That's what I enjoy doing.  In these parts, especially with the history of absolute pillage just a little over a century ago of just about every growing thing on the landscape, it's difficult to trust outsiders to honestly care for one's own property.  It's pretty easy to demonstrate to any timber owner the basic difference in returns between marketing their own lumber vs. selling stumpage.  And that's the twist I hope to leave as a small legacy in this life and region: It just might become an owner's "edge", finally.  And when it's in the favor of the landowner, my task might be done. Besides, there's lots of public lands to continue bidding on.  

Our regional "Timberman's" handbook mentions that volume includes the "by-products" of the logs harvested.  That's a market few seem to wish to discuss.  But the landowners who personally manage their own operations will most certainly realize the benefits those elusive dollars will provide their bottom-line.  

I envision a coalition of sorts in the future, a cooperative effort which will benefit woodlot owner/operator and production specialists equally, based upon some formulaic investment share.  As it stands today, it's little more than "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" to the owners. Four generations later it happens again, maybe. That's probably going to change in the near future as word gets out.  Which it always has a way of doing.

Must fly to chores.  Be well all.

[Ron Wenrich]

Welcome to the forum, Gunny.  

Most foresters in my area put up their sales in both Doyle and International.  Avg dbh is 18".  

Doyle is just based on a formula of (diam - 4)^2 x length/16.  Nothing very fancy about the formula.  It really doesn't have much basis in how much you will cut out, but it is the mainstay for log buyers.

International, on the other hand, was based on someone actually taking the time to scribe out what you should be able to saw from a lot, less the kerf.  It was then put into a mathematical formula.  It seems to work out pretty close to what you should be able to cut.  But, a lot depends on your cutting patterns.

I don't know of anybody getting huge overruns from forest to logs without a poor cruise.  Same can be said for logs to lumber.  A lot depends on the ability of the cruiser and the logging crew.  The more professional of a cruise, the better the data, the less the overrun..

As for taking 10 overmature oak trees and making more money than a timber sale, I have a few problems with that arguement.  

Most marking jobs include the removal of poor quality stems and marginal trees that enhance the growth of the remaining trees.  To leave them in the woods would be irresponsible.  Quite often they cost the logger just to cut them, let alone taking them out of the woodlot.  That cost is offset by the timber price.

If a timber sale sells for $500/Mbf and logging costs $75/Mbf and trucking is $50/Mbf and milling is $125/Mbf, then you have a total cost of $750/Mbf.  Woodwaste would bring in about $40/Mbf after trucking.  With an overrun of 10%, your breakeven point is $635/Mbf.  That's not that easy to get.

Some species of timber don't even reach that value for the uppers, let alone the poorer quality.  But the landowner still receives that $500/Mbf for that stuff.  So, how is he losing?

For the portable band saw, you can add another $125/Mbf for the milling expense.  There is an associated overrun, but it isn't that great to offset the increased milling expense.  Small logs will only give a marginal overrun from the circle mill.  Again, cutting patterns and board thickness have a lot to do with it.

Niche marketing 10 trees a year isn't that hard of a job.  But, if you tried to niche market 1,000 trees a year, your market would dry up pretty quick.  Larger operations don't have the luxury to hand pick markets.  They address their operations to the matching the of resources with the markets.  To do volume, you must have volume buyers.  Without the volume, your operational costs mount quickly.

I've always found that the value of a tree is pretty standard.  I don't care if you measure it in International, Doyle, tons, cords, or any other measure, the unit cost will be adjusted to reflect the measure.  

[Minnesota_boy]

What Ron Wenrich said was well said, but the crux of the matter is that the timber companies must be profitable or they will go bankrupt.  If the scaling of the logs becomes very accurate to avoid any overrun, the price will go down to compensate so the profit remains.  Niche markets will be profitable at a lower volume, but as volume goes up, price goes down.  Supply and demand set the price. It isn't perfect, there are plenty of opportunities for profit as supply catches up to demand or demand becomes less than supply, but over the long term, it works out.

[Gunny]

A nice discussion and certainly understood within the context of the industry.  My advocacy, however, remains with the private, small woodlot owner (in whatever acreage that might be defined) whose intended source of income is now, or is desired to be, from the selective harvest of his/her primary resource.  

There is no argument made that more actual cash income can be made from the harvest of ten overmature trees than from the outright sales of, say, 80MBF at stumpage rates (excluding veneer, of course).  It's not opinion; rather, it's recent personal experience.  And, of course we're discussing niche marketing, no less so than those Iowa pig farmers who finally realized that it makes more sense to sell bacon than to send their piggies off to the old and established "on-the-hoof" market.

Within the mid-Michigan market, hand-crafted rustic primitives retail at an average from $10-$20.00/BF.  My planked harvest tables garner near a thousand each with both benches included.  All are hand-wrought mortise and tenon.  Most work is done with a hatchet, drawknife, brace and bit, mallet and chisel.  

Some of my neighbors are far better equipped than I, in both skills and tools, and average far better returns/BF.  Inasmuch as the urban demand for these niche markets seems to grow with the expanding metro-populations, there's room for many unique and different apporoaches.  But it's nigh on impossible for the small owner to realize the potential staring him/her in the eyes when all the trees have been hauled away.

I'll remain as strong a proponent of the "timber-to-table" philosophy as much as I do regarding the exponentially-expanding market for organic produce.  Of course not many will board the train but for those who do wish to do so, I'll be around to provide details and encouragement just as I've been doing for years.  I continue to create my particular products from the lumber sawn from the few trees I fell each year.  I even dare to build a few log cabins from it along the way, too.  

I guess I've been thinking outside that "box" most of my life.  It's a very nice place to find oneself.  Some say Poe-Tay-Toe, some say Poe-Tah-Toe.

Happy Holidays to all.  

[beenthere]

Gunny
Now you are beginning to let us peek into what and from where you are comming from.
Let's hear some more.

Note that those Iowa pig farmers are not the small family farms they once were, but have had to build the pig hatcheries with multi-hundreds of pigs in a controlled atmosphere, (and the odor is causing some real uproars). I don't think their 'niche' market is very small now (compared to when they started butchering their own pigs and selling the meat directly to the consumer).
I think Ron said it quite well, and some small niche markets are pretty lucrative, as you describe, but will not fit a good plan for a forest (at least not a healthy one, and we've seen plenty examples of the results of no-cut policies).
I still am interested in what plan you have to improve on the Int'l 1/4" and Doyle rules to measure volume in a tree or a log. The way you started out beating those two rules down, I thought you had something in mind to improve on them. What say? eh

[Gunny]

beenthere:

Just a note before running off into the woods again this PM.  Since WoodMizer promotes their equipment's ability to produce approx 51% more lumber than the standard circular system does--and if the scales were (as they must have been) developed for those wide-kerf blades, plus overrun, wouldn't it be logical to begin by adjusting the existing scales some?  Someone in these parts recently mentioned an "Intl 1/8" Scale."  That would be approaching a more accurate tally for those logs headed to those mills who have converted to the monster bandsaw systems.  Does such a beast (the 1/8") exist?  

We can yodel from the hilltops all day long about how accurate this or that may be but until we pull into a range of + or - 10%, we're still looking at discrepancies that simply can not be justified.  Even the loggers are getting the shaft in this part of the country, every time they roll up to one of the scores of one-man bandsaw mills--to include all the Amish ones--and get paid on the 1/4" scale.  The sawmill owners are making a very nice "overrun" on each load they buy.  That's why they bought the bandsaw mill in the first place.  It's sweet--in the owner's terms--to pay for 20MBF of logs and saw 25-30MBF of lumber.  It's happening just a couple of miles away as I write this.  I'm surprised the folks in the woods who are busting their backs producing sawlogs haven't demanded an adjustment--at least an additional means of tallying volume when delivering to these bandsaw mills.  

Must scoot.  Be safe and well that way.

[Ron Wenrich]

Here's the formula for Int 1/8" log rule:

      8' log vol = 0.44 d^2 - 1.2 d -.3
     12' log vol = 0.66 d^2 - 1.47d - .79
     16' log vol = 0.88 d^2 - 1.52d - 1.36

For comparison, the Int 1/4" log rule formula is:

     16' vol = 0.796 d^2 - 1.375d - 1.23

That's the formula we used to develop the tree volume calulators.  If needed, we could revamp the calculators to include the 1/8" scale.  

The 51% increase in volume from circle mill to bandmill just doesn't hold up.  It was worked out on paper and not in the field.  Big difference.

I read a report that states that woods grown ginseng averaged about $300/lb last year.  Seems to me that growing ginseng would be a lot more profitable than cutting trees.  But, no one seems to mention that.

Then, there is the black truffle.  There is reportedly some growing in the eastern oak forests.  In Europe, they fetch $500/lb.  Pretty good cash crop.

.  

[Jeff]

I have been figuring out how to get the most lumber or a better description, the most money possible out of any given log all my working live. I just DO NOT believe that a saw with half the kerf of mine, (1/4, if ya want to get technical, 9/32) can get 51% more then I do. No way no how. Bring one over and set her up. I wanna see it.  Yes, there certainly will be a savings but I am convinced that most of that "Savings" if converted to dollars, gets eaten up in other costs associated with running the thin kerf band mill. I'm sorry, but this old sawyer says bull pucky on a number like that. I cut two boards, and you cut 3?

[Minnesota_boy]

I fail to see why I should pay more for the same load of logs just because I get better recovery.  If a loggers brings me a load or Jeff a load, the price should be the same.  The logger isn't betting beat by me or Jeff, we just pay the going market rate.

[SwampDonkey]

It might also be the case of 'take it or leave it' with no alternative local market. There has to be a distinction between scale and price, two different things. Keep the price the same (if its the going price), but give me the best scale you can. It comes down to the fact that it's strictly a buyers market, not a sellers market. I don't think it ever will be a sellers market unless we throw forest management out the window and I have something to sell that you want badly and are willing to pay my price. In this case I'de pretty much have to hold a monopoly on the wood you need.

[Jeff]

In the case of our mill, we are consistently outbid on timber sales, the owner and forest tech scratch and stretch and cruise and re-cruise and put out the highest bid possible we can pay and still work above a loss. Most of the time, we don't get the sale, many times we dont even come close.  Gunny, I see what your saying, but at least in the case of our mill, it doesn't matter what the scale is, we pay what we can to still stay in business. In the last 5 years, stumpage has went up, gate log prices have went up, fuel, INSURANCE, all the things associated in doing business. In that same 5 years, we have lost our health insurance, some of our life insurance, any hope of pension, an no increase in wage that might at least keep us even with the cost of living.

I am not an owner, just a millrat. A head Sawyer. If someone is making big bucks, It sure aint me.

[Tom]

Jeff,
You say "I cut two boards, and you cut 3? " when describing that a bandmill doesn't get more from a log.  I assume you are speaking economically and you are right.

The actuality of the situation when speaking of time is that you cut 3 boards and I cut one......maybe.   When you look at the dollars it takes to keep the saw running and the profit from quanity at the end of the day, I'd say that your circle mill is making more money then my little bandmill, making jobs for 4-5 people where mine makes a job for 2.  From the customers end who wants his log sawed for his own use, I cut out the transportation for a minor charge.  You're keeping a truck driver and truck owner in business.

There are different ways of looking at the economics of a sawmill and it isn't all in the kerf.

My bandmill, for fewer boards (time-wise), will use up 3 bands a day. at a resharpening rate of 6+ dollars each plus $20 initial cost. Over the life of the band, about 5 sharpenings or less, the cost is $150 per week with the common output of 10,000 Bf.

I can't really factor in your saw blade, but, a box of teeth is $110 or $120 dollars and that supplies you with several weeks of error free sawing and one sharpening a day. (at lunch)  You are cutting as much in a day as I am in a week. I don't see a lot of comparison.  

Now, the narrow band does have its niche and it's economical in its own right.  We just can't compare apples with oranges here.  Shucks! I'm even smart enough to figure that out.

I would hate to see the day when the production circle mills can no longer stay in business because they can't afford the wood.

The loss of employee benefits isn't always relative to the cost of the operation though.  Sometimes the powers-that-be just want more money out of the company and decide to take it from the workers.  I hate to see the demise of a sawmill for those reasons as well.

When we landowners are counting our "big-bucks" from the timber sale we should keep in mind the folks up the chain that make the product marketable.  By the same token, it would behoove those up the chain to appreciate that the "big bucks" that they assume goes to the landowner for one day pay-off, actually cost him 20 to 80 years and may have involved more than one generation of humans to produce.

[Ron Wenrich]

When I bought logs and scaled, I found that the logger was more interested in grade than scale.  I could do a balancing act that was fair to both the logger and mill.  Some guys will beat a logger with a grade stick.

In years gone by, mills would push their unprofitable ways back to the stump.  There is too much competition to do that today.

The next step was to up production to drive down costs.  But, then that put more competition on the wood supply.

The last leg is to drive it down to the employees.

[Jeff]

Well, I think our mill must be on its last legs. I got a Christmas Bonus today. I wont say how much it was, or how much it used to be other then this. I got the same thing for the last 20 years. Until this year. This year I got 15.3% of what I had always received.

Either things are real bad because I aint there sawing while my shoulder heals, or bad things are here because I aint there sawing.

[ohsoloco]

I'm reading about Doyle and International scale, but what about Scribner?  The only reason I'm asking is b/c this is the scale that is used by the mill that I sell my logs to.  There seems to be quite a difference in calculated volume in small diameter logs between Doyle and Scribner, so I'm actually surprised they use Scribner    

Can't find my log rules that came with my mill right now    so I'm just wondering how Scribner compares to the other rules  

[Tom]

You know about that sister site that spawned the Forestry Forum?   It has a lot of good info.  Here is a log rule write-up.  

http://www.timberbuyer.net/topics/logrules.htm

[ohsoloco]

Thanks, Tom  

[Phorester]

MINNESOTA-BOY:   " If the scaling of the logs becomes very accurate to avoid any overrun, the price will go down to compensate so the profit remains."

True, but the volume will have been more accurately measured and known to both the buyer and seller, which is to the benefit of both.

RON:   "But the landowner still receives that $500/Mbf for that stuff.  So, how is he losing?"

He's losing because the MBF is not being accurately measured. He isn't being paid for the number of MBF he is actually selling.

What's the purpose of any log rule?  Isn't it to determine how much lumber can be sawn out of a log?  So wouldn't you want to use the most accurate log rule you could?

[Jeff]

I'm reading about Doyle and International scale, but what about Scribner?

Here is the log volume calculator which will return input in doyle international and Scribner for comparison.
http://www.forestryforum.com/calcs/sawlogbf.htm

the tree volume calc that Ron and I put together does the same thing.
http://www.forestryforum.com/calcs/Board%20foot%20calculator.htm

[Phorester]

OHSOLOCO:  the Scribner is considered to be intermediate between the Doyle and the International 1/4".  More accurate than Doyle, less accurate than International.

It was developed in the mid-1800's by drawing to scale the number of boards that were contained in cylinders of different diameters, using a 1/4" kerf.  It's supposed to be most accurate on 16' logs.  Any other length screws up the estimate. No taper allowance, so it ignores all the boards that can be sawn outside the small end diameter of a real log.

fyi for any history buffs, the Doyle is supposed to have been developed around 1825, the International 1/4" around 1905.

[beenthere]

There is a USDA USFS publication by Frank Freese titled "A Collection of Log Rules" that is very good at describing the different rules and some history of many of them. Also a comparison of the rules to the Int'l 1/4" rule. Interesting reading, and not sure if it is available except in some libraries.

[Ron Wenrich]

Phorester

Are you saying that foresters underscale low value trees?  Kind of gets back to the quality of the cruise that I talked about.

When you ask a guy what he paid for a tract of timber, they will give you an average price, not the price per species.  A bidder may have bid a high price for one species and a low price for another.  But, the final price is the lump sum price.

I commented before about foresters culling trees due to relative value and not merchantible volume.  Nobody seemed to think that was out of line.

Ohsoloco

Here's a calculator that will give you relative value for logs between the 3 most used scales.  http://www.timberbuyer.net/logvalue.htm

If you know the value and size of a log in a certain log rule, it will give you comparable values in the other 2 log rules.  Its good where you have several buyers that use different log rules.  Veneer buyers mostly use doyle.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron:

The folks I see that use that pricing scheme are ones that don't hire a cruise done. They just walk around a small section of the woods and draw on experience from woodlots they've harvested in. The folks I do cruises for and are buying stumpage, or the land outright, have access to market info from our marketing board and they separate volumes by markets/grades. They get a lump sum price yes, but it's based on totalling the value of each product (ie. softwood sawlogs, pulp, veneer, hardwood sawlogs, pulp, veneer). I always punch in the volumes by species/grade (sawlog,pulp,veneer) into a stumpage spread sheet to get a figure in my mind if they ask me what they should ask lump sum. But, its not averaged. If that were the case folks would be getting stumpage for half what they actually do.

I must admit that its hard to evaluate a standing tree for veneer or sawlog, it has to be cut. I've been experiencing an overrun of cruised sawlog volumes and its impossible to get real accurate. If we keep calling every tree with nice bark a sawlog or veneer the loggers are going to go broke paying more for stumpage than they can cut out of the wood. If I see defect I down grade it even thought there may be some saw material in the log. Some markets will except it for sawlog with just 2 clear faces out of 4, but its only slightly better than pulp price in my area (ie $250/th low grade sawlog, $230/th pulp). I know from experience that the loggers won't be bothered to seperate that lower grade sawlog.

[Tom]

Does that mean that the landowner is footing the bill for the complacency of the logger?  The landowner is the one with all the time effort and liability at stake. It's the only payday he will get for a long time.  Looks to me like a logger should be gleaning all he can get from the trees and somebody should be holding him to it.

[Minnesota_boy]

Tom,
I don't see it that way at all.  The forester has done the cruise and has informed the landowner and the logger of the facts as he sees them.  The landowner has accepted payment (his part of the contract) for the amount the forester says is there.   His obligation is to know if the forester is doing his job right and if he abdicates that obligation, nobody is required to tell him so.  The loggers part of the contract is to pay for the amount on the sale and to remove all and only the trees that are part of the sale.  From this he has to make a buck or two.  Time is valuable to him, most likely more valuable than the difference between a poor sawlog and pulp price if he has to spend time sorting and grading.  He loses the $$ for the sawlog (perhaps gaining goodwill from the mill he sells to) but gains additional time to cut more trees.  It is never an all or nothing game, this logging, its all trading back and forth to make the most profit.  A good logger may sacrifice a little profit taking time to do a better job to gain the goodwill of the landowner, but if he sacrifices too much, the bank will own his trucks.

[Tom]

Well, I read the conversation a little differently.  I read that the forester is not calling a sawlog a sawlog because he knows that the logger won't.  The landowner is depending on the forester to be as accurate as he can.  If the landowner grew a sawlog then he should be paid for a sawlog.  If the logger wants to sell the tops for pulp then he should take the sawlog off first and try to market the rest at the best price he can find.

If the landowner is at the mercy of the forester it is because he is depending on the forester to do him right.  It's not as if he can say "if you don't do a good job this time, I won't use you next time".  The trees are gone and the landowner doesn't get a second chance.

I can appreciate the fact that logging is hard work but that doesn't mean that he can rob from Peter to pay Paul.  The trees belong to someone else until he has sold them.  The Forester is hired by and should be working for the landowner.

If the Forester makes arrangements to sell the wood lump sum, then there is no problem .....as long as he has given the landowner the benefit of that sawlog.

When all is done, the logger moves on to the next patch of trees and the landowner considers what to do with his property now.  He can start more trees for his Grandsons or sell to a developer and watch the houses go up.  His payday has come and gone.

[Minnesota_boy]

But isn't it the landowners responsibility to hold the foresters feet to the fire?  If he accepts the forester's advice and the forester accepts the money, a contract has been fulfilled.  If he thinks the forester isn't giving him full value for his money, then he needs to get a second opinion.  It's his land and therefore his responsibility.

I had the choice of 2 foresters to lay out my timber sale.  I chose one primarily for his ability to help with the tax situation.  I felt I got good value for my money, even if I did have to prod him to get the numbers I needed for my taxes.  The other one may have done as well laying out the timber sale and getting the money for the stumpage, but wasn't able to do the other part.

[Ron Wenrich]

The way a timber sale is layed out around here is:  the forester goes out and runs a perimeter around the sale boundary, he marks the timber and cruises (rarely do they make distinctions on sawlog vs veneer), they compile the numbers and put the timber out on bid.

The bid sheet includes the number of trees by diameter class and by species.  They also give a breakdown of footage.  Cull trees are also noted.  Some guys will make a quality statement.  There is usually a disclaimer that no volumes or qualities are guaranteed and you should bid based on your own numbers.  I have yet to see a reserve bid on private timber.  

The logger goes and does his figuring on past experience, his markets, logging difficulty, distance for trucking, etc.  Some guys bid on their gut, others do the numbers.  I've even seen guys go in an number trees on a high quality veneer job.  They then submit a lump sum bid.  At that point, you get your average price/Mbf for the timber.  How you arrive at it makes no difference.  

The forester's job is to bring the seller and buyer together, mark the timber in a responsible way, and to oversee the logging operations.

The logger's job is to remove timber in a professional way that is beneficial to the woodlot, and to market his logs where he can make the most money.  Not all loggers have the same markets, and this is reflected in the bid value.  The manufacturing and marketing of logs is where they make their money.

Some guys will leave by products in the woods.  The cost of dragging out pulpwood and shipping does not offset the value.  Some loggers just don't deal in pulpwood.  That material is left in the woods.  The logger paid for it, he chose not to utilize it.  Normally, they have to either cut or kill all marked trees.  Otherwise, you would have a bunch of highgrading.

At the end of the sale, the landowner can put that out for bids.  Its not uncommon to see landowners advertising topwood for sale at so much per truckload.  

I really don't see any problem.  You could put a timber sale out that is measured in any volume you see fit.  Tons, bf International, bf Doyle, cu ft, cords, bastard cords, etc.  In the end, you have a lump sum price, and that's what the timber is worth at that given point in time.

Now, sawing on shares is something totally different or sawing by the foot.  I haven't seen any timber sales that have been developed like that.  Usually they are between a logger and a landowner.  Seller beware.

[Tom]

Then, perhaps, you hired the right Forester.  To listen to the argument that Foresters use to get hired and provide a service, you will hear the horror stories of the sales that took place without a forester's advice.  The Foresters depend on their expertise and knowledge to provide the service of manageing the forest and the sale for the benefit of the landowner.  If it's the case that the landowner needs to hold the forester's feet to the fire, then who needs foresters.

I had my shoulders operated on by a surgeon who studied the repair of shoulders.  I told him what I wanted done and told me he could do it. I didn't request that I be kept awake during the surgery to make sure that he didn't cut my leg off.  I had to trust him to do the right job on my shoulder too.  I don't know one part of the thing from the other accept just enough to try to understand his explanations.  DanGed if I was going to suggest where to put the hole or what to cut on or which tool to use.  If I'd needed to do all that, I wouldn't have needed the surgeon.

The forestry thing boils down to ethics.  The landowner is paying the bill.  The forester works for the landowner. His allegiance should be to the landowner.

I'm not condoning an ooperation that would treat the logger wrongly.  But I am dead set against the logger making "wind-fall" off of the landowner because the forester was favoring the harvester rather than the owner of the trees.

As a custom sawyer, I am hired to cut 1x4's, 1x6's and 2x4's.
It would be a lot easier on some logs to leave 4x4's instead of slicing them into 1x4's.  Heck I could get the wood off of the mill quicker and time is money.  Matter of fact, I could do better if I made 6x6's instead of 1x6's too.  Now, if the log owner isn't looking, why couldn't I just slip those cants off onto the pile.  I'd make more money.

As far as I'm concerned, if the logger wants to make the decision to sell a log for less than it's worth because it's not worth his time to sort it, then he can take the dollars out of his pocket, not somebody else's.  For the forester to accept the logger's bid because he doesn't want to "bother" with a certain product and tell the landowner that he is getting a fair deal, isn't right.

[leweee]

Tom...As a land owner I would prefer a quaity job over top dollar for low grade product.It always seems to be a compromise between quality & $$$. Reminds me of a sign seen in an office. GOOD,FAST or CHEAP pick any two. you just don't get all three together  sorry

[Tom]

It appears that my interpretation of Quality differs.

[Jeff]

Tom, when I say I got 2 and you cut 3 refers to the 51% figure. Maybe I am thinking wrong, but isn't 3 boards, 50% more then 2 boards?

[SwampDonkey]

Tom:

That difference in price between low grade sawlog and pulp isn't a wide enough margin to justify hiring another person to buck it out unless there is enough high grade sawlogs in the cutting area, then that low grade will likely get separated from pulp. A person has to appreciate the situation or type of sites we have up here compared to warmer climates south. Our hardwood quality isn't that great here. The size sawlogs you guys are cutting above 12 inches are usually gone past their prime up here. Also, as I stated before, its impossible to see inside the bark with the tree standing. A person has to draw on experience from what he knows is the potential for trees growing in the area being cruised. Costs to separate low grade sawlogs outway the benefit to the logger who is usually in competition over that wood with several other loggers. I don't feel the owner is getting the dirty end of the stick on this. If the owner wants to hire the bucker he can. In most cases the owner is only interested in $$ from the highest bidder and is far removed from the harvesting. Only 1 in 10 cruises are instigated by the owner in my experience. The owner usually just calls a bunch of contractors or advertises the lot and lets the contractors with the best price do the job. Some contractors hire a cruise, most don't. They just walk the lot a little bit and it's usually not that extensive a walk. I remember one contractor who barely left the road and he comes back saying the wood isn't there. He cuts the wood, he says he would never have believed it. Well, he didn't untill he cut it. It was then he admitted in not walking the lot very thoroughly after I shamed him into it. I remember this happening with another guy to, only he didn't get to cut it, but a friend of his did. The friend said the wood was definately there and the first guy still refused to accept it. As a forester I believe I have an obligation to whomever hires me and I always keep the owners interest in mind. I don't know of any land owner that has ever accused me of ripping him off. Their interests are being well looked after on my part. I believe we have an obligation to keep the local contractors and loggers going or else it'll be totally run by large industry who already have total control of public forests here. And it isn't right.

I'll cut it off here.

By the way, I agree with Ron W's points he's made here also. And everyone has different situations to deal with. Most timber up our way isn't marked, only in special cases where a forester is hired to look after the woodlot and the harvesting. Our woodlots just don't yield the hardwood sawlogs you find in the south. We manage mostly for softwoods.

I'll cut it off here.

[tomtom]

I am in the process of letting part of our hunt camp bush out to tender. We have 600 acres in northern Ontario. We had a forester come in and mark about 50 acres of hardwood, maple,ash, some cherry. It has been highgraded in the past.Some really big overmature maple, A lot of canker , fungus and other defects.He marked to remove disease, defects , and then mature, in that order. The remaining bush will come ahead and be healthy. Our next cut I will not likely be around for, but at least I feel we have made an effort to improve , our kids will reap the benefits. We will cut fresh blocks every year or two, and will gradualy get over it. As we are in a major deer yard , as well as some moose . The hunting and winter brouse supply will also improve . We have an area of lower ground , he recomended removing all the Balsum, poplar, white birch, and white spruce over12 inch as as a pulp or log cut. No hemlock , or other species would be cut in this area. There is quite a lot of yellow birch in this cut, he feels that by taking out the softwood it will let the remaining hardwoods, reseed themselves and have a head start. Does anyone have any opinions, or recomendations.
 I am new to this board , and would welcome new ideas. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all . Tom

[SwampDonkey]

tomtom:

Welcome to the forum.

I assume your forester is working with basal area tally (actual, removed, leave) and in doing so will remove the mature fir and poplar which are short lived. Your white birch are usually short lived although you do come across some old growth beasts once in a while, depends on site. I'de follow pretty much the same prescription myself. The harvesting of the shade intolerant hardwood and white spruce above 12 inches might be considered a diameter limit cut or high grade. But, once you understand that these species don't grow well in shade and if they exist at smaller diameters they are likely to be of good quality also. Just avoid leaving tall spindly ones, they won't stand once released. Red spruce on the other hand grows in shade well and releases well from shaded conditions. However, they aren't likely to be as good quality as ones not overtopped when growing, and they are very long lived.

I was just cruising a similar lot the last two days which is mostly hardwood with a cedar stand running through the middle. In this hardwood there is alot of fir that is mainly decadent,even on the dryer cedar microsites. Alot of deadfall littlered on the ground. The remaining fir in those areas are not long for this world as they are mainly over topped or with less than 1/3 live crown. The woodlot has had some harvesting but its been 30 years and it wasn't that uniform or harsh on the woodlot. These folks have big engineering jobs and were not focused on cutting wood, but the owner wants to get back to his woods ground as soon as he retires to work it with tractor and winch. The only roads were old grown in trails that need upgrading and extending to get good ground coverage. There is also some black cherry coming into those old harvested 'microsites' and they are all diseased. Never seen any mature ones so I assume birds have brought the seed from farms along the river valley. We live in the Potato growing belt of New Brunswick, so lots of farms and line fences where the cherry can grow. Yellow birch will seed well if you make patch cuts and disturb the mineral soil. They release seed in Sept-October in my area from cone like structures, as you can see them in the fall with a good wind releasing like somone with a peppar shaker. Here too there was a few scattered hemlock which I too would recommend leaving for biodiverity, stand structure and wildlife benefits. White ash is also present and averaging 10 inches for mature trees. I would retain a few of those for mast trees for birds and coons. The coons won't leave my ash trees alone on my lawn in summer. They eat the seeds and the flowers. There were lots of moose sign on this woodlot also, never saw any deer sign.

The cedar on this woodlot was nice to walk through, like parkland with their 14 inch  (at dbh) trunks. The canopy seemed to be full of red-eyed veros making their peeping noises. For cedar I would harvest the leaners as there are usually quite few around.

Sorry for the run-on post. Maybe you can make sence of some of it?  I'm sure your in good hands with your your timber sale. 600 acres is alot of ground to work.

[tomtom]

Swampdonkey, Thanks for your reply , I have enjoyed getting this cut ready. I spent a week at camp last spring, doing the cooking and following our forester around, he is a friend of mine so he spent a lot of time explaining , the reasons for selecting certain trees for removal. Our lot has a high percentage of the trees , with frost cracks, canker etc. This has let various funguses start. He showed me the various types and named them, I hope he doesn't take up a test and expect me to name them. I believe that long term highgrading ,and the leaving of diseased tree in the past, has led to our present conditions.
 In theunmarked section he is proposing to take out all the Balsum as it is dying out,all the birch and poplar, also the White Spruce down to 12 inch stump diameter. Are you saying that to leave the remaining Spruce that they might not do well. We are hoping that the disturbance of the ground , will help the Yellow birch to reseed.
  The hardwood marked area averaged 26m basal area to start , I think, He tried to leave about 20m. Some areas he had to go down to 16 m ,to get rid of the defects. Are we on the right track. Good luck to all. Tom

[SwampDonkey]

Looks like your in good hands and having a friend as a forester helps alot also. Regarding the white spruce, I wouldn't leave any being over topped by the hardwood as they won't produce seed and if you see 'silver dollar' sized scales in the butt logs they'll be red inside. Leave smooth barked and fast growing white spruce, they'll be much healthier. In my area the white spruce which appear to be healthiest are those that are tall and not flat topped and also ones not growing on abandoned pasture land. Those flat topped , fat diametered, limby white spruce won't respond to release like a red spruce can. If your in a white spruce stand where your walking on the anchor roots, they might as well be cut and they'll have a high percentage of red rot ,brown cubical or other fomes and armillaria disease/rot causing species. Butt limbed white spruce are very susceptible to rot causing fungi. It appears that your on the right track. Frost crack or wind stress in hardwood and large spruce is a problem here also.

[Phorester]

Ron;
"Phorester  
Are you saying that foresters underscale low value trees?  Kind of gets back to the quality of the cruise that I talked about.

When you ask a guy what he paid for a tract of timber, they will give you an average price, not the price per species.  A bidder may have bid a high price for one species and a low price for another.  But, the final price is the lump sum price.

I commented before about foresters culling trees due to relative value and not merchantible volume.  Nobody seemed to think that was out of line."

RON, This conversation is hard to follow coming in only once every day or so and reading the many, long,  messages posted after I left.  There is also the element of our widely varying experiences, the region we live in with different tree growing conditions and different wood markets, how timber is customarily bought and sold in different regions, how we each define the term "Forester".  But since I'm wide awake and alert after a couple cups of coffee, let me try to continue.....

To other professional foresters, the term "Forester" means somebody with a 4 year college degree in forest management.  To others it just means somebody looking to buy or cut trees.  I overheard one landowner waving his hand over the skidder operators, truck drivers, sawyers, on a log deck in his woods say to his teenage son; "these guys are all foresters". (He didn't point to ME and say that...  I was "the government man"   :-/)  

And then you get into specific forester jobs and the end goals of each job.  There are professional foresters employed by a timber industry whose job it is to buy trees and logs. He trys to pay as little as he can for trees.  There should be a point where ethics kicks in so he doesn't cheat the landowner, but different people will have a different ethical limit.  And that limit can also be argued.   Others are talking about consulting foresters working for a landowner to sell his timber. If both are to be loyal to their employer, each of these have different motives based on who is paying them.  I think some of us are getting both confused.

Speaking strictly from a volume estimating standpoint, I feel that no ethical Forester should underscale any tree or log.  I think the way to put value on a tree is through grading, not volume estimating.  The final price paid is decided through whatever method is being used.  Sealed bids where one price is offered by each buyer with no option to negotiate after the bids are opened, or some sort of negotiation - haggling, dickering, give-and-take, whatever you want to call it. A forester working for a landowner to SELL a landowner's timber should not underscale low value trees. The landowner should get paid for the total volume of low value trees, although it will be a lower price because these trees are of lower quality. But a Forester in that same woods trying to BUY the timber has an inclination to underscale low value trees, since his employer wouldn't have to pay as much for them because of the lower cruise volume.

I agree with your other points in the last 2 paragraphs quoted above.