Portable

[Arthur]

I have been having various arguments about the definition of 'Portable' as in portable sawmill.

what is your definition or your mill manufactures definition of portable???

Ive been using the definition from the Oxford and the Collins dictionaries.

[Jeff]

I have been having various arguments about the definition of 'Portable' as in portable sawmill...

I hope this is not a plan to bring that here. I wont stand for "arguments" Polling for someones interpretation is fine long as thats what this is. I dont like and dont stand for this mill is better or that mill is better or you shoulda or why didntcha stuff.

With that outta the way, carry on!

[Cedarman]

All mills are portable, some just take longer to move and hook back up.

[Tom]

Am I ever so glad that a manufacturer asked that question.

Portable in the beginning of the 1900's defined a sawmill that could be dismantled and moved from one place to another, where the wood was located, and not have to build buildings, foundationse etc.  It might take a week or a month to install the mill and it would remain there until the wood was out of range.

In the end of the last century, the sawmill was put on wheels.  The first I had hear about in my area was a mill like the Mobile Dimension and may well have been.  These mills were "loaned" by the Dept. of Forestry to farmers who cut their own wood for barns.  They were portable in that they didn't require much setup.

As the Industry progressed and companies like Wood Mizer came on the scene, the saws became so portable that they required hardly any setup at all.  That's when business's like custom sawing in the Urban Environment became popular. That type of saw is what I classify as Portable.

A truly portable saw would be one that could be trailered by a small vehicle, require minimum setup (0-10 minutes), saw a variety of sizes of boards (15") and lengths of 20'.  It should have the capabilities of clamping and sawing waste wood (1' lengths) and trunk diameter sizes of 6". It should have the capability of breaking down a large log (60+" dia.)  It should have log handling capabilities to ease loading and turning.  Its width should allow it to pass through a backyard gate.  It should be able to be maneuvered by hand, and turned on its axis 180 degrees for removal or be movable forward and backward. It should be capable of sawing 1500 feet of 4/4 x 12 x 12 per day including setup and dismantling.  It should be sturdy enough to withstand the rigors of frequent setups, many miles of stop and go traffic, large logs and some abuse.

It should be capable of satisfying a minimum of two jobs a day and designed such that moving it would be no problem.

It needs to be well built, easily adjusted, repaired with over-the-counter, easily obtained parts and safe.  It needs to be designed with knowledge that there will be a  multitude of inexperienced individuals within harms way every day.  It must have a full compliment of safety covers and arresting devices to prevent metal and wood from being flung into a crowd but still easily maintained.

It should be able to be operated by one person efficiently and contain devices that would allow one person to clear the mill of lumber and timbers.

It should be powered by an engine that runs effeciently, powerfully, reliably and off of available fuels.

Its controls should be located in one specific operating area whether it be on a box carried by the sawyer, a remote station or attached to the saw.

It should be sold with a shop manual for all parts of the mill, any specialty tools,  a manufacturer's warranty of parts and labor to be performed on-site in a reasonable amount of time, an availability of parts from the Manufacturer and education of its proper utilization.

Having said that, I think there are 3 types of portability and, as an industry, we should come up with some way of distinguishing amongst them.

There is the
"carry in the woods type"  chainsaw mill
"cut a log and move the mill to the next log type" ? ? ? ? ?
and
"Move the mill on site, cut for a week and leave type" most fall in this catagory.

[Jeff]

Our mill would be by no means considered portable, but, I know of a cmc like ours that is on a trailer that is hauled to logging jobs and set up on location. It takes a day or two to accomplish set up. I certainly would consider this portable. It would not fit in Toms list unless he changed the week part to include sometimes months but in these parts it is considered a portable sawmill.

[jgoodhart]

I think Tom forgot sumtin in his descrition of a portable mill, self leveling like motor homes.

[Minnesota_boy]

I think Tom forgot sumtin in his descrition of a portable mill, self leveling like motor homes.

That's what I need.  I can't see if the mill is level and I set it up pretty badly a time or two.  I put bubble levels on it but then I break them or knock them off.  

[Ianab]

my dictionary says
" capable of being carried or moved about "

It doesn't define if that means carrying it over your shoulder, on a car trailer or a truck.
I'd kinda suggest that, if it's not bolted down then it's 'portable'

Ian

[Bibbyman]

Uncle Ed had a big circle mill that was mounted somehow on a truck frame.  He sawed mostly on his own lot by his house but ever so often, he'd move the whole she-bang to a big job for a month or two.  I was too young to grasp the details and I never saw the mill on the move.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Bubba , who lives a few hollers away, dragged a portable trailer type circular mill up from the boot heel of Missouri............its 12' wide with a 54'' blade

[Jeff]

Where's Weekend Sawyer?  Aint the Shuttle Portable?

[DanG]

So, Tom, I been wondering what your definition of "portable" is?

Mobile Dimension was indeed the one that the Fla Forestry Service bought to loan out to landowners. I don't know what happened to the program.

People ask me if my mill is portable, and I tell them it is "transportable."  I can transport it to their site if they have enough material to make it worthwhile. The mill doesn't have any self-contained log loading capabilities, and all my lumber handling stuff is pretty much tied to my location, ie, the Hootiemobile.  If I go to a remote site that doesn't have the support equipment, it turns out to be less efficient than transporting the logs and lumber to my site.

Jeff, I guess I'm a bit like the Space Shuttle. I'm portable, but it takes a lot of work to get me off the ground.

[Arthur]

Jeff - not intended to be an argument here.  Like to know the other millers deinition of portable.

Tom - well put

DanG - I have to agree with you about portable and transportable. This is my normal point.  I can dismantle a mill and transport it to another site and rebuild.  If this is portable so is the Empire State Building.

The Collins Dictionary states -

Portable 1-able to be carried or moved easily esp by hand.
            2-an article that can be readily carried by hand.

Tom - I do agree the industry needs to define with maybe NEW definitions for the transportablilty or portablility of mills as there are now many different capabilities and im sure many new ones still to come.

???Any suggestions for new definitions???

[Kevin_H.]

I think in the question to portability, there needs to be some kind of relationship between how much a particular sawmill will average in a day and how long it takes to break it down and move it..

A bigger mill my do 5 times the amount of BF in a day, but it may take 5 times longer to move it...but there should be some way to calculate the average daily BF VS. the amout of time needed to ready the mill to move...

Know what I mean?

[Tom]

I think a designation of "what type of mill" it is should be the way to go.  Define them by class.  Kind of like you define class of hitch for a tractor.

A class 1 portable mill should put it in one catagory and a class 5 should designate another.  I don't know who the authority should be but it's more complicated than may be assumed.

It would have to cover all classes of saws.

Manual.......misery whips
chainsaw mills like the Alaskan
chainsaw mills like the Logosol
bandsaw mills like the RipSaw
bandsaw mills like the LT15 and Norwoods
bandsaw mills like the LT40 and Baker 3638
bandsaw mills like heartwood's bigger band

circle mills like swing mills
circle mills like MD's and Double cuts

Semi stationary circle mills like the one Jeff described

Stationary band and circle mills

I can see someong spending a lot of time defining classes of mills.

......and yes,  setup, priduction etc.  should be part  of each class someway.   A class might even be a mix of certain types of band, circle and chain saws.    confusing.

[Jeff]

I can see someong spending a lot of time defining classes of mills.

jeez, why bother?  This would only add to confusion of the first time sawmill owner. I can pretty much tell by looking at something weather it'll fit in my pocket or go in a truck.

[Tom]

Yeah, on second thought, why bother?

[DanG]

Maybe the difference is in how one uses the mill. Tom's mill is portable, because that's the way he uses it. My mill is stationary, because I don't move it, even though it has wheels.  If you're offering a mill for sale, and it can be used in a portable operation, then offer it as a portable mill.

[Bro. Noble]

We went East one time to the Coast.  The only water fit to drink between home and the Atlantic was in the Blueridge Mtns.  Nest time we left home we took some 'PORTABLE' water with us.

[Tom]

   You're too much, Br'er Noble.

[CHARLIE]

Well, since I know a lot about nothing, and don't have a mindset to hinder me, I'll volunteer to be the one to determine the classes of mills.  It's just that y'all gotta abide by my decisions, ask no questions and eat mo grits! (DanG I like that!)

[Carl_Peterson]

I think this is a good thread.  The new guy has got no idea what a portable sawmill is and has to search through a hunderd brochures to find something that fits his spot.

There's gotta be an easy way to classify as to moveability.  Some mills may fit in multiple categories.  

For example, the Lucas, Peterson ATS, and Lewis are easily hand carried to the log.  The Peterson WPF is just a little bit more cumbersome to carry to the log, but may still be "Class 1".  

They all also can be efficiently used in a permanent or semi permanent site.  The Pete WPF overcomes its disadvantage in portability by gaining in its ability to productively saw as a fixed site "Class 2" mill.  The Pete WPF SemiAuto mill may still fit as "Class 1" (can be used and carried as an ultra portable) and also suits a fixed site perfectly as a "Class 2".

The Peterson ASM leaves the "Class 1" arena, and only makes sense in a permanent or semi-permanent position, or where there is easy vehicle access to the milling site.

So, I'm gonna make a few distinctions here.  "Class 1" requires the ability to hand carry the equipment to the log.

"Class 2" requires the ability to be easily moved from site to site by carrier vehicle separate from the mill itself.

"Class 3" signifies a trailerized mill which must be towed from site to site, but requires little setup for operation.

"Class 4" may be a mobile mill requiring substantial breakdown or set up time, ie "transportable".

"Class 5" may be something like the Twin Towers, that takes a lot of time to set up, but can be broken down in a matter of minutes.

"Class 6" may be something like the Empire State Building.  Took a long time to build, and nobody's figured out how to break it down yet.  Apparently a Flying Fortress made one attempt near the end of WW2 and failed.  Some things just ain't built the way they used to be.

Carl Peterson

[Arthur]

Carl

good definitions.  not too many might be all thats required.

[FeltzE]

2 more cents...  

A portable sawmill (excerpt from the feltze book of definitions): A sawmill designed and manufactured by one company to be moved from one sawing site to other sites during the normal operational life time of the machine. The sawmill may be completely self contained or may be modular and require some assembly or disassembly for transport or operations.

Stationary Sawmill (same reference) A sawmill which may be composed from the design and manufacturing of one or more companies that is designed to be set up and operated in a fixed location such as a building or sawmill site for the duration of the tennancy of the owner.


2 cent bonus... theory by feltze ... The classification of portable is much less important than the owners goals and expectations of the sawmill capacities such as size of logs, lumber, and through put vs. the portability aspect. ie. I could saw lumber on a mountain side with a chainsaw mill, carry the lumber out by hand milling only a minimum amount of lumber daily for a minimum capital expense or go through the myriad of levels of portablility to a modular large headrig mill that could be set up in a day or 2 trucking in the components on several tractor trailers, sawing 10s of thousands of ft per day...



Eric

[Quartlow]

I would be willing to bet you Breezewood would call my mill portable, But since its anchored to a concreter pad I'm gonna call it permanent. Oh you could move it but you have to tear it all down and trailer it. Much easer to bring the logs to me  

[Murf]

Maybe it's just the farmer in me, but to me 'portable' depends a whole lot more on what you have to tote sumtin' around with than anything else.

My next door neighbour has a 1/2 ton pickup truck, my 'pickup truck' is 5 ton with a 10 ton knuckle-boom crane on it.

There is a big difference between his 'portable' and mine......

[Arthur]

should the definition of portable be that defined in the dictionary or that which we want to fit to the definition for our own benefit???

If so what other definitions are subject to abuse???

[Jeff]

Trying to narrow the definition of the word portable to exclusively fit a specific application is like trying to narrow the definition for the word sawmill.

[TN_man]

Arthur,
I don't know that it is neccessary to distinguish between mills that are "portable" and those that are "transportable". Both are made to be taken to a jobsite whether carried or pulled. Usually, logs have to be manuevered by some means to some extent in either case. I think that people looking at the different mills to purchase can easily see the differences and thus the advantages or disadvantages of each and then decide which is for them. I don't necessarily feel that manufactures are trying to decieve potential customers, do you?

[FiremanEd]

I like the definition by the dictionary of Feltze, as  my mill 'must' be portable by zoning rules.

I figure that I bought in a state away were it was sawing logs, broke it down, loaded it, hauled it home, set up and was sawing in ohh,, about a week. So it's "portable".

I'm printing this thread incase the zoning nazies come snooping...  

[Arthur]

TN_man

Subject was started for a descussion to bring this question to a head.

Most countries have regulations when advertising which I personaly think that some manufactures bend as far as they can.

Most of the mills we manufacture are portable to the fact that one person can carry the parts of the mill from one location to another.  It will take a few trips but can be done by hand and within reasonable distance can be done in good time.

In PNG the village turns out and you can move the mill in one go some distance up the mountains.

We do however have one model which I consider to be transportable do to the fact that unless you can pickup 300kg and carry this on your own its not very portable. and thats only the power unit.

On the other hand our latest baby is only 90kg for the entire mill so the whole thing can be put on your back and carried by one person.  Mind you if you can only pickup 20kg then its not very portable is it.

[Ianab]

By the same definition the new Saw setup at the local mill must be portable...
They bought it at an auction someplace up in the Pacific Northwest where a fairly new mill was bought out and shut down. They sent my old boss and 3 other guys over to the US to dismantle it and pack it into containers for shipping back to NZ. It's now reassembled and running here in NZ. I believe the move took 3 months and cost around $1/2 million, but compared to the $3mil to get the same setup new they figured it was worth it.

However I'm still not sure if thats a class 5 or 6

ian

[SwampDonkey]

I think we need a multi-million dollar government funded study done by the sawmill manufacturers to determine the definitions. That way the government can class each of us into different tax brachets. If you fit into two or more portable sawmill classes than your tax should be higher than my handheld chain saw class. Oh, I forgot, you'se larger mill owners already paid that higher tax. Back to square one.

[FeltzE]

Ok I agree with the multi million dollar government study, I'll conduct the study, in 6 months review my findings (see if I've changed my mind) 6 months later ask my wife if I'm right.


Study complete .... pay up...

I don't agree that if you can break down the mill and set it up in a specified time makes it portable... I think it's the design factor (was it designed to be assembled and disassembled multiple times?) Design factors should allow for ease and speed of assembly without requirements for detailed realignments or multiple sub assemblies being re-assembled...

I pulled an old frick mill from it's moorings last winter, It was not a portable mill, it will however be reassembled one day in the future.

ERic

[EZ]

My guess is the government has not finish there study yet. Every year that I send in for a renewal of my fenders, they put me in a different class. Which of coarse cost a little higher. This year they have my portable sawing under lawn and gardening. Cant hardly wait for next year.
EZ

[SwampDonkey]

 


cheers