Bad news. Just lost both kilns in big fire!

[Tom]

The sprinkler idea is nice but stickered wood is an extremely challenging fire.  

I think the sprinklers would have to attack the fire before it got into the lumber.  Once it got into the stack, you're right, it would be a challenge. He might save something though. :-/

[Jeff]

I think stickered lumber would take some time to get going. A sprinkler, I would think, could pop off well before a stack of lumber became engulfed

[dail_h]

   Sorry to hear about your loss,fire sure can mess up stuff quick. The kilns at the GP mill where I work have burned three times in the last 25 years. The last time,they put in a sprinkler system with 100,000 gal storage,"lectric, and deisel pumps.Supposed to be able to drownd kiln in 3 min. Don't know who made it,but will find out

[slowzuki]

You're right, if you catch it before it gets going it could probably do something, but then again maybe not.  In a kiln a deluge system would be typically be used, the densities could be 0.5 gpm/sq.ft or higher depending on some things.  That turns into a lot of $$$ to deliver the water at sufficent pressure.

I particpated in a investigation of a multi-million dollar loss at a plywood/veneer mill.  The pumps were off for a minute or so at the beginning of the fire.  It was too long, the 2 x 1500 gpm pumps couldn't keep up once they were turned back on, too many heads opened

[Kirk_Allen]

Kelvin hang in there.  Thank God you and your family is OK.  

If you need to replace the q-sawn white oak your welcome to come down to our place and we can cut what you need.  It was free to me and if it gets you out of a bind I would be glad to give it to you.

I wish I could supply you with the cherry but just about all I have is either for our remodel at the farm house or sold and waiting on getting dried.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Kirk

[Kirk_Allen]

slowzuki

I think who ever did the math should be held accountable.  The main pump system should be able to support the flow requirement capacity for all the heads if it was done right.

Once the fire department gets their they can supplement the standpipe system with more water and pressure.

I did an investigation at a refinery several years ago.  Some slick salesman told them they needed 1,000 gpm nozzles on each stationary monitor around this 150' diameter Naptha tank.  Total of 12 monitors.  Once installed they open one of the valves to a single monitor.  All looked great   Salesman walks out with a $15000 sale and was proud of himself.

Two months after the installation I show up.  I asked the chief what his system pump capacity was.  

"we have a 2,500 GPM pump that supplies the refinery."  

Have you ever opened up all 12 of these monitors around this tank with those fancy new nozzles?

"we opened one and it was awesome"

Lets open them all.  Thats reality if you have a fire right?

"Sure lets do it"

Once open................$#%&#*

You could hear the chief of safety screaming a mile away.

You see, with only 2,500 gpm to work with it simply couldn't  support the 12,000 gpm needed to supply all the nozzles at their rated flow.

Not a single fire stream could even hit the base of the tank let alone the rim wall.


Kelvin, You can rest assured that it was not the Kiln temperature that caused your problem.  For any of the combustable products in you Kiln it would take several hundred degrees for them to actually ignite.  I would put my money on an electrical failure of some kind in the fan.  

BW  Williams is right.  There are people who can tell you if it was an electrical faliure in the fan or not.

You should be able to contact your state fire marshal and they should be able to determine the cause.

I know in Illinois the state fire marshals office requires that the cause of each and every fire be determined.  If the department cant do it then the state will bring in a specialist to make the determination.

Kirk

[LeeB]

I too am sorry to hear about the fire. I was really rooting for you in your endevor, exspecially when the "big boys" told you it wouldn't work. I know all looks dark now, but don't let it get you down. I can tell from your past posts that you are a fighter and will come out on top of all this. Best of luck to you. LeeB

[beenthere]

LeeB
What, in particular, about a solar kiln like Kelvins "wouldn't work", according to the "big boys", whoever they are?  
Just curious, is all. Can't imagine solar kilns are a fire hazard in any way, and the wood burner seems to be ruled out as participating in the fire.

[sandmar]

Kelvin,I am sorry for your loss.May better times await you in the near future. Chin up,the people on this forum appreciate and admire the job you did on your kiln.

Sandmar

[slowzuki]

Kirk, on a deluge system the pump has to flow all nozzles.  On a sprinkler system you have a density and a design area.  The design area varies with density and hazard.

The idea is the sprinklers contain the fire to one area.  In the one minute delay the fire had spread to the veneer dryers, lathe, layup and gluing press and the second dryer and warehouse.  It had started from some work happening on the core ejection / chipper line.  Veneer is different than most hazzards but the dust/chips in the building was a big culprit.

Smoke detection wired to a shop or house can go a long way to finding out something is happening before a fire breaks out, if you are there to attend to it.

There are some new water mist systems coming out with excellent performace on low water consumption.  Sort of like a pressure washer hooked up to a fog nozzle.  I've seen some manual extinguishment training videos of them, the fog is so fine the fire fighters can get extremely close without to much radiant exposure.  Ships use them in turbine rooms to keep from cracking the casings.

slowzuki

I think who ever did the math should be held accountable.  The main pump system should be able to support the flow requirement capacity for all the heads if it was done right.

[Kirk_Allen]

The system your talking about was developed my Marriott Hotels in conjuction with the University of Maryland Fire & Resscue Institute.  

Your correct in that it is a high pressure mist system  I had the chance to work with Mr. John Hogland at the University during the initial prototype testing. John was the director for Special projects and it was a pleasure getting to see these new systems being tested.

The challenges they are now having witht that system is that after several years they start to have leaking problems due to the high pressure.  Lots of bugs to work out but it has its place.  

One of the other projects on the table is blast glass.  Initial test showed that it did not fail with temps of 1200 F for close to 10 minutes.  I dont know the size of the explosive charge they used but I was told it was big.  No failure.  They said the blast would be equivilant to an aircraft blowing up at the passenger terminal and you could stand at the glass and watch it happen with out getting a single peice of broken glass.

Pretty neet stuff.

 

[LeeB]

Beenthere, I was refering to all the flack he recieved from dr. w. when he was developing his ideas. I pesonally never said it would not work. I think he has/had a good idea and I admire someone who is willing to stick thier neck out and go thier own way against convetional wisdom. If no one did this we would still be living in caves. LeeB

[rebocardo]

imo, You do not want a sprinkler in a small kiln. You want a CO2 system or halon system of the type they use in computer rooms or race cars that dump an area and rob the fire of the O2 it needs to burn. In a small enlcosed space such as a kiln, I think this would be effective especially if the fans shut off if fire temp. sensor kicked off.

I would think many kiln fires where started by sawdust that collected places you did not see.

[DanG]

That would be true, Rebo, except that his solar kilns were enclosed in sheet plastic. The Halon or CO2 would have been gone in a flash, so to speak.

If y'all don't thing stickered lumber will go up in a hurry, get about a dozen old pallets and stack them and set'em on fire. Be ready to jump back real quick, though.  Airflow is what makes a fire burn quick and hot and that's exactly what stickering does for you.

[rebocardo]

Around here they use chopped up (pine?) pallets as fire starters because it goes up so quickly. Great way to get an oak fire started.

Sheet plastic as in plastic bag type plastic or sheet plastic as in window pane plastic?

I know the polycarbonate sheet (1/4 x 48 x 96) plastic I use for various things such as windows has a flashpoint of 800 F, which is higher then the wood (600 F) it is attached to. It would contain a fire long enough for a fire suppression system to work.

[J_T]

Sorry to hear of your loss I too followed your building them think you got the Dr's goat a time or two Your fire reminded me of one I almost had once . I kept a box fan at the foot of my bed and once I awoke to a bright light took a few seconds to figuire it out it was the motor burning nicley :Would never though such a thing. I still run one but have lot's smoke dectors. Wish I had one with a motor like they use on gas pumps.

[Kelvin]

Hey, Thanks for all the support and ideas!  I'm not sure what a small guy can do to avoid fire.  The idea of a detector would be good, but by the time you got out of bed, back to the kilns, and got the water flowing (We live in michigan where it would be hard to have water ready all the time in winter)  Those tinder dry kiln buildings would probably be too far gone.  I like the idea of lower temp DH kilns.  I've been looking at comercial dehumidifiers on ebay.  Not the homeowner ones that decompose in the kiln enviroment, especially with my oak, but the ones that companies like Ebac started out making.  I figure with the info i got building my own 1000 bd ft DH kiln with a residential dehumidifier and an electric oil filled shop heater, i could possibly make a 3000 bd ft DH unit for a lot less then Nyhle charges.  I mean for $4,500 you get a dehumidifier and a heater.  Its all manual controlls anyways.  I could get a control unit from a kiln supply house.  That little unit i built in my barn, before the solar hybrids, really dried wood fast and cheap!
Well, i got more ideas than a barrel of monkeys, but if i get some insurance $ it would be easier to implement.  The Nyhle kiln looks good though.  Either way i've got to build a super insulated building, and i was just getting ready to break ground on our new home!  Guess that will stay priority one for now.
Thanks for all the ideas.  Hope it saves someone else any hassles by thinking about what they would do if something like this started on their kiln.  How do you put it out?
Kelvin

[DanG]

J_T, come to think of it, the fuel pump on my truck oughta make a heckuva fan motor. Probably blow the curtains off the wall, though.

Kelvin, it sounds like you just had a stroke of bad luck. I've had a bunch of motors burn out without ever causing a fire. Usually they will just trip a breaker. You may have had the circuit under-protected, or the breaker may have just failed to trip. They do that sometimes. You can double protect by using, say, a 10 amp breaker and also put a 15 amp fuse in the line. You should blow that fuse before a fire could start. You also could put your fans external and duct the airflow to the inside of the kiln if you're nervous about putting a motor in there.
One other point I want to make; You're talking about using a dehumidifier that is not built for drying wood. Just because it is "rated commercial" doesn't mean it will stand up in a kiln environment. Nyle's equipment does seem expensive, but it is made to do this job, and probably is cheaper in the long run, due to less downtime and longer life.  Don Lewis and Den Socling, along with some other knowlegable folks, have written volumes of good kiln info on the Drying and Processing Forum. I'm sure you'll read every bit of it before you rebuild, but I just wanted to remind you it is there.
BTW, keep us posted on that house building project you mentioned. I'm gonna try to build one, too, and it would be fun comparing notes along the way.

[Left_Coast_Rich]

Kelvin,  Sorry to hear about your last series of events: however the last chapter has not been written yet so look up and see that your redemption is coming.  A mans character is not developed by the good times but by the hard times, only to see later that the hard times were the good times as we allow ourselves to stretch and molded by unseen hands.  Best regards to you and yours.  LC Rich.