How Green are you

[Tom]

[SwampDonkey]

Cedarman:

I concur. The 450 members in our association is only one of seven provincial associations. Some have over 1000 members and there are about 40,000 small private woodlot owners (an owner with under 2,500 acres). All the associations come together under the Federation of Woodlot Owners which has existed for 21 years. Some associations are 43 years old. There are at least two woodlot demonstrations per year in the province and each association chooses a woodlot owner of the year in which the industry gives cash awards or trees for planting. Some industrial companies also help with the cost of semi-commercial thinning programs in softwood stands, some with hardwood commercial thinning. Our assocaition receives $100,000 from the hardwood pulp mill and each producer of wood contributed 0.5% of wood sales toward a management fund. The amount contributed by mills is based on annual wood deliveries and isn't a sure thing. Annual sales is over $10 million and on a slow incline with more value from hardwood now and implementation of provincial wood tracking system. More folks are becoming wise to sorting their hardwood veneer and sawlog from the pulp pile.

[SwampDonkey]

Tom:  like your stick people

Yup, yup, yup.....only thing is, it has stagnated. No real job growth for the last 10 years since mill upgrades, globalization and increased efficency. More seasonal forestry workers now. Enrollment in Forestry schools is on the decline.

cheers

[Tom]

Sometimes it is all in the perspective.

We tend to look at the world through our own window and suffer from self-fulfilling prophesies.

Really, what are our goals?

Can one take his education and sit on the park bench waiting for someone to discover that he is the one they need?

Can one offer seminars to the population to generate income and not become a teacher by profession?

Can the population come running to an advertisement on a class in a far-away town and spend its money on time, room and board when "school", in his life,  was only something to get away from?

Can a fellow sit in the woods and let his trees rot down around him, expecting someone, out of the goodness of their heart, to come save him?

Can we commandeer anothers property to force him to do our bidding and call it freedom?

Can a man invent/discover, in his lifetime, all there is to know about the land, the forest, the science that it takes him to be successful?

From a Forester's perspective, he may wonder why nobody hires him or uses his education.

From a small land-owner's perspective, he may wonder why there aren't any Forester's out there running a business?

From a large land-owner's perspective, he may be proud of himself for providing that one job for the starving Forester, not understanding why there are so many starving Foresters.

There is one thing a man should never forget and that is "we work for ourselves."  

To be successful, we either have to be born into money and a position, be very lucky and have life handed to us or get out there and "SELL" ourselves.  

I have seen apathy real close.  What do you say to a young man who says "There isn't any work out there",  when he didn't finish high-school, showed no interest in college or trades, never seriously looked for work, argued with the boss in every menial job he ever held and has spent the last 10 years sitting on couch, watching a TV, mooching off of family and friends and repeating, "there isn't any work out there, the economy is sure bad, it's the President's fault".

If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a noise?

What are we selling?
When do we give up?
Do we expect the hoards to go to the mountain, or do we bite the bullet and take the mountain to the people.
If you sell to someone and he doesn't buy, do you try to sell him tomorrow?
Do we quit because our customer won't do what we want, or do we try to find out what the customer wants and discover some way to help him make it happen?

Do we quit the sawing business because the price of pallet wood goes down, or do we look at producing flooring?
Do we quit our job because the price of fuel went up, or do we walk to work?

We are all guilty of finding some reason that we haven't been able to succeed in one effort or another. Usually it is because the world wouldn't do our bidding.

That little do-dad I drew has 4 sides.  One can get a different perspective depending on which of 3 he looks at it.

Do you know who these fellow are?
A.J. Albritton, Sterling Allan, Stanford Andress, Joe Bellis
Kenneth Bonnell, Harry Braun, Fred Cook, Eric J. Davis, Georgia  Hough, Keith Judd, David Mevis, Andrew Rotramel, Joseph Schriner, Tom wells, A.J. Wildman

They are 15 of 35  write-in candidates for President of the USA, to date.

If, and when, they aren't elected, will it be your fault for not discovering them?

I don't mean to get on my high-horse and, even though I may sound like I'm mad or disgusted, I'm not.  I just want to bring up the fact that there is always another side to every coin.  If things don't go the way we want, have we found an excuse, or are we looking for another way to succeed.

Is the problem solved if the "doodlers" all study and become Foresters so that they can look after their own land?  What does the Forester who wants to provide a service do for a profession then?

[SwampDonkey]

One thing I've been pondering lately is :

Why do people clearcut their land and then decide to do a management plan?   Not all woodlots I do plans on are clearcuts, but a large percentage is. This year its been 75 % clearcuts (over 50 % of the land was clearcut on these lots) so far. I have a feeling that some folks think the silviculture program will fix their woodlot. Then again, who would give them this idea?

To be quite honest with you Tom, I think alot of foresters have looked at alot of your points and questions. I know the majority of them have gone through my mind.

I've also been pondering over the fact that there aren't many (if any) industrial foresters, on the forum. I know we have some from government and self employed folks, but where are the industrial foresters. Interesting. Raise your hand, one only please, for the head count.

cheers

[OneWithWood]

Hey Cedarman.  The IFWOA and other active organizations in Indiana are having some impact.  
There are two field days coming up that may be of interest to area folks who have an interest in environmental issues and management techniques.  On Sept. 18 there is a field day at the Meyers farm in Johnson county sponsored by IFWOA and on Oct. 9 there is a field day at my place sponsored by SWCD.  Our district forester, Ralph Unversaw, and a Purdue Extension Wildlife biologists, Brian McGowan, will be leading tours and discussing timber management, BMPs, wildlife cover, edge habitats and food plots.  I will be demonstrating my Woodmizer mill and discussing how I have financed the timber and wildlife management activities through selective harvests and my own timber/milling activities.  We will even be providing a chili lunch for those that come out.  For more info see the Forestry Education board.
Here is a link:

http://www.forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=edu;action=display;num=29

[Tom]

We clearcut as a management practice here because our crop is pine.  Pine doesn't do well in un-even aged stands. Interspersed pine taken from a hardwood forest won't return.  It needs light, specific amounts of room and little competition.

I know, as a forester, you know this.  I just wanted to describe an instance of a valid clear-cut.  While pine stands can be thinned, they usually end their rotation in a clear-cut, land-prep and re-plant.  

I have read that Aspen is treated much the same way, is that true?

To develop a management plan after a 'first" clear-cut may be folly.  That is more of a row-crop farmers mentality than a tree farmer mentality. It may happen because the owner knows no different.  Someone needs to get to him and tell him.  If there is no Forester on the prowl, looking for a customer, then the only contact is the logger. Someone in the industry with an inkling of forest management needs to make the owner aware of what his options are.  The loggers are out there knocking on doors, looking for wood, perhaps they should be the initial "Forester". Perhaps the Foresters should be working for the loggers. (?)  Perhaps a procurement forester is quite valuable to the perpetuation of the industry.

Not all land owners leap before they jump. It takes a special breed though to study and follow through with the idea of being a tree farmer, not just a land-owner  When the goal is urban development, a replaced forest is not in the cards. It's those mis-guided landowners who need to have their door knocked upon; and not after the trees are all gone.

[Ron Wenrich]

Hey Swamp.  I might have to put my hand up part way.    I've been a procurement forester.  Did I do good management?  Yep.  And I know of a few procurement foresters that do good work.  The ones with the local paper company do better work than most other foresters, since they aren't really interested in crop trees.

They took a poll of private landowners in our state when they did the timber inventory.  They found that the primary and secondary reasons for owning timberland was not timber production.   Aesthetics was number one, if I recall.

Maybe we're just not on the same page.  We talk about mangement plans, silviculture and harvesting and they're talking about green backgrounds, birds and deer.  We also have to recognize that non-management is a management option.  

So, if timber production isn't a primary motivation, why should the landowner persue forest management?  We know, but the landowner does not even have the slightest idea of how much their timber is worth or how much it could be worth.

I tried attacking that angle by trying to sell appraisal services to guys that could use it - realtors, real estate appraisers and banks.  Never had any bites.  How much can a bunch of trees be worth?, is their reasoning.

I don't know if I've seen anything that shows the landowner how much trees increase in value as size and quality increases.  Maybe they would be more motivated if they treated their timber assets like a financial asset.  

[SwampDonkey]

Up this way, where there is aspen, there is also balsam fir. They seem to be compatible species where one is intolerant to shade, quickly dominating the tree canopy and the other is very shade tolerant living in the understory and co-dominant. Sometimes the understory fir is as much as 20 years older than the poplar that tower over the top of it. Both species are fast growing and short lived, well short for a tree. Roughly 60 to 90 years. With fir they live closer to 90 in the north and fall down around age 60 in the south (in NB). Add the spruce budworm to the equation and you can't crawl through the deadfall and thick fir regen. These stands are best managed with clear cutting. Some folks haven't woke up to the fact that a 60 year old fir can be 5 inches and it can also be 14 inches on the same site. Beleive me there has been plenty effort to prove it, but its hard for some to grasp when all their in tune to is tree size, since that's what's marketable at the mill. Age doesn't mean anything to the mill as long as it meets specs.

White pine is long lived and shade tolerant until pole sized. It will be around for several generations of poplar and fir and will even survive fires if not real severe. I know a stand that had survived 2 fires, one 90 years ago and another 60 years ago. It regenerates best on disturbances and grows faster than most softwoods, even balsam fir. I think they manage red pine with controlled fires in Ontario. In New Brunswick its not a significant component of the forest, although thousands of acres have been planted on abandoned fields and some cutovers.

Row crop farmer is right, they are usually farmers clear cutting to pay farm bills. Or older folks that have to cut the land to pay for thier room and board at the old folks home, or siblings that subdivide the estate and cash in after the folks kick off. Or a renegade logger that knows the owner lives and works 100 miles away from the woodlot.

A point worth mentioning is that if you need to go into a home and you have assets such as forest land, a house and investments etc.  The government basically seizes those assets or they have to be sold to pay your way. This is in New Brunswick. If you have family and you plan to leave them anything, you have to turn it over to them 5 years before you go to a home or lose it. Isn't that just lovely?

One thing you may have been overlooking about the forester. The forester is always knockin on the door and sometimes he's the logger to. For the majority of folks the forester is a middleman and land owners and loggers would just as well eliminate the middle man because that's more $$ in his own pocket.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron:

Well if its any comfort, you and I are on the same wavelength for sure, just side step'in in different directions sometimes.

Putting your hand up, doesn't make you a target, by the way. I just want a head count. Like to see more from big industry on here. I've cruised other forums on forestry in canada and they are pretty much idol or have no participation. Dunno why. Must be shy, scared or something. shrug!

Ron, I can definately believe your recollection of the land ownership pole. That has to be the reason folks in NW Virginia own land because they never cut wood, maybe a pickup load for stovewood.  I never saw a sawmill or loggin truck for miles around, just solid forests with 4 lane highways down through'em.

I think most foresters know and agree that doing nothing is a management goal to, I concur. I have relatives that have forest land sitting idol. The old man said not the cut it, so its never been cut since he died and that's been almost 50 years ago. Even the fields he grew big gardens in have loggable softwood and poplar now. They all had jobs that didn't include forestry so it never bothered them. And yup, over 30% of the natural forest volume has fallen down and has regenerated. Some mess to crawl through. But there is an old road that follows a brook that everyone including the neighbors keep cleared out to hike on or ski on. I hike it to see the big white spruce and poplar along it. I like look'n at the trees standing there too ya know. The poplar is 75 feet tall in there, start'n to fall down now though.

Treating the forest land as a financial asset as been the problem here. Way to many have been cashing in.

I also approached the realtors on the appraissal angle, and as you say, there's ZERO interest.  They just see a middle man, which is a big turn off. But, I got ahead of one realtor who thought he was gonna get my fathers forest land for nothing. He applied $50/acre on it all. I said listen up bub, reforested land costs $450/acre to replant, fully stocked regrowth is worth $300/acre, swampland is $50/acre and mature woodland is going for $750/acre. I measured all the land and divided it according to stand types and got an average and said this is what we're gettin. As you say they have no clue and I don't know where they get this $50/acre stuff. I can't buy it for that. If so, where is it?

[Mark M]

Forgive my ignorance but what is an Eco-Saw?

[SwampDonkey]

Excuse me while I  


Ok, now I'm done.

Mark, your a handful.

[Tom]

It's a turmoil generator, Mark.

http://www.forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1092799931;start=0

[SwampDonkey]

Here's one of them fire gutted white pine, still alive after two fires.

Wanna step inside my white pine? Close the door behind ya, to keep the skeeters out. This pine is ~ 50 inch dbh on a cousin's woodlot.

[SwampDonkey]

Ok, here's a stand of w-pecker poles for ya. The spruce are longer lived and green as you can see. The white birch has invaded areas with more light as the stand becomes decadent. This is in a provincial park.



Notice the clumped maple on left edge of image. It suckered from a fire killed tree or one heavy browsed by deer. This was burnt land in the 40's. Now the fir is decadent from age and possibly budworm damage in the 80's. Although, no major outbreak of budworm since the early 90's. Photo is 8 years old.