How Green are you

[Arthur]

since buying an EcoSaw I have had abuse from both the traditional millers for being green and the greens for logging their presious trees (even though the trees are owned by me).

some of the abuse has been to the point of violence.

I admit to tree hugging but this is only to feel how big the tree is and to see which way it wants to fall.

so how green do you think you are

[Tom]

I think that the only "true" Green's are those who make their living in the woods or farm trees.  If you want to really see an educated Green, Meet a graduate Forester.

Those people who run willy nilly about the woods, sitting in trees, destroying equipment, demanding that land owners do their bidding and take up precious court time trying to make it a crime to cut a tree are Wacko's.  They are generally joiners who own nothing, live in an apartment in a big city and are looking for a mission in life.  Anything would do for a mission and they would be just as happy sitting on the road in front of a bus to condemn their idea of frivolous fuel use.

I guess I'm Green but right at home on this board.  It is composed of a lot of people who love nature, the woods, trees and the esthetic's as well as the economics involved.

It won't take you long being around here to realize that we are a community of "Real" folks.

[jerry-m]

Well Said TOM

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Can't add a thing to Tom's statement.  

[sprucebunny]

I'll second that well said.
I'm green enough. I own the piece of land I do because it was about to be "liquidated" and I was in the market for land with trees still on it.It was also the right price in the right area.
The local people have all these rumors about how I'm going to develop it. And little appreciation for the fact that I saved the center of thier town from an ugly flattening.But the beavers are all happy that I put my money where everyone's mouth is.
In a few years after some TSI maybe when they ride the skidoo trail tthru there, they'll appreciate me but I'm not holding my breath .

[etat]

well, i recon i'm glad of the way tom is taking this thread.  

I guess I'm Green but right at home on this board.  It is composed of a lot of people who love nature, the woods, trees and the esthetic's as well as the economics involved.  

i never thought about being green or blue for that matter but your answer. tom. absolutely describes my feelings and i feel was perfectly said.

[Ron Wenrich]

You have 3 different types of people when it comes to being green.  There are exploiters, conservationists, and preservations.  There are shades on either side of the scale, so someone may fit a little into each category.

Exploiters are the guys who go out and do what they want to the environment with little disregard for anyone else.  These are the high graders in life - take what you want now.

Conservationists are the ones that use practical management of the resources which includes current and future use.

Preservationists are the ones who want to lock the door and throw away the key.  

How green am I?  It depends on what you are talking about.  We have areas of old growth timber in our state.  Do I think it should be preserved?  You bet!

I can't think of any area that I'm an exploiter.  I drive a practical car, keep my energy consumption low, and don't need those things that exploit the environment.  I'm a green consumer, to some extent.

Unfortunately, some exploiters and preservationts think they are conservationts.  Someday they may get it right, but I doubt it.

[leweee]

GREEN  I thought he was talken about( lack of experience, a newbie, Greenhorn) Reading further I realized he meant   .....green party.....(as in politics OR greenpeace don't ya just love the english language for all those meanings from just one word..As for me I've planted more trees than I've murdered as a logger....so I guess I'm GREEN as spruce needles

[UrbanLogger]

See if I can stir things up here a bit . . .

I sat in a huge Redwood for almost a month in 1989. The tree was in a 4500 acre stand of virgin Redwood on Pacific Lumber Company land.

I was in school in the Bay Area at the time and spending my free time rock climbing, surfing and chasing young women.

The young women I was most attracted to were the nature loving, makeup abhorring young "hippies" that wanted to save the last groves of virgin Redwood in Northern California, save the dolphins, etc. They talked me into teaching them how to use my climbing gear (ropes, harnesses, etc.)

I was also troubled by the fact that Pacific Lumber Company had just been purchased by a robber baron named Charles Hurwitz using junk bonds written by none other than Michael Milken. The bonds were drawn on a savings and loan in Texas, one of the first to go belly up causing the big savings and loan bailout that soaked us taxpayers in 1989.

Upon taking control of the previously family owned Pacific Lumber Company, Mr. Hurwitz tripled the family's established sustainable harvest rate and started exporting whole logs to Japan as he closed the company's local mills, busted the loggers' union and raided the company pension plan to pay off his junk bond debt.

When I moved back to Tennessee, I worked with a coalition of local sawmill operators and environmentalists to get the Tennessee Valley Authority to deny permits for 3 high capacity hardwood chipmills (300,000+ tons per year).

I then helped found a coalition of local groups across the South to work on educating landowners, state officials and forest users about the concerns of the "cut-out and get-out" type of forestry that accompanies a chip mill or oriented strand board mill that sources 300,000 tons or more a year of hardwood from a 50-60 mile radius area. This much wood outta such a small area inevitably leads to massive clearcuts, water quality problems and serious damage to the local sawing and value-added industries as they see their growing stock vanish thru the chipper.

In 2000, I played a key role in convincing the State of Missouri to place a moratorium on any new high capacity chipmills in the state. While "environmental" concerns were the legal trigger, the main reason was to protect the state's robust sawmill and wood-based manufacturing industries.
     
I also work actively to ensure that the National Forests near my home (including Land Between the Lakes) are selectively managed for the benefit of wildlife and NOT converted to pulp plantations.

If any of this makes me a "wacko", I will wear the badge proudly as I too hug my trees at breast height and saw my sustainably harvested and completely renewable wood.      

[DanG]

Naw, Scott, you're not a wacko. You are an activist, but one that uses knowledge and experience to choose your causes. The wackos are uninformed or misinformed lemmings that take up a cause without bothering to learn the truth. We need more folks like you that are willing to fight for worthy causes, whether that be for change or preservation. When things are right, we gotta keep'em that way, and when they're wrong, we gotta change them.

Plantation trees are one of our most valuable resources. They provide the material we need without cutting what's left of our natural forests. This doesn't mean that it is the right thing for everywhere, however.

I'm tickled to see so much going to the chipper at the OSB plant south of me for one reason; every sheet of OSB that is used takes the place of a sheet of plywood. The plywood mill north of me uses only the biggest and straightest logs, usually the ones that have grown naturally. The OSB plant is mostly using the thinnings from all the 20-30 year old plantations.

[Arthur]

Glad to see the response to being Green

I guess im greener than most and activly promote sustainable logging buy good management practise.

most of NSW in Austalia has been devistated and the same is now happening in WA and TAS.

In South Australia there are softwood plantations that are now ready for harvest and are large enough to supply Australias wood needs with ALL the wood without ever having to mill another hardwood native.

The problem is softwood even in platations doesnt get half the money hardwood does so clear felling of hardwoods occurs.

In Europe many years ago before we had anything other than foot transport we still had the need for wood.  Probably a greater need yet one small woods near the village could sustainable supply all the building , fire wood, etc. that was required due to managing the resource.

I bought the EcoSaw company to make money but I make more money as a Computer consultant than I will ever make promoting the mills.  I guess buying the company was like buying our Rare Breeds Farm.  Its a mission in life to promote the GREEN issue in what I consider to be the right way, im not in your face doing it (except if you come to an expo where I am demoing the mills) I just get on with it and give anyone who asks information. Im also taking advise from whoever can give it.  

the main reason for joining this forum.

[Tillaway]

Urbanlogger
I was one of the cruisers on the Palco Headwaters forest when Palco sold it to the the feds.  Its now BLM land landlocked inside Palco property.  Only one foot access trail on the elk river goes in there.  Palco got about $200,000,000 more than it was worth, thats right 200 million and thats conservative.
The family that managed Palco greatly underestimated thier standing volume to avoid paying california property tax.  Hurwitz moved on a low hanging fruit.  Thats partly how the family lost the lands.  Also there were also some major mistakes made by the family in the failed attempt to prevent the takeover.
A very good friend of mine works for Palco now.  It is about the only company in California that is actually making investments in forestry and milling.  They have refitted the small log mill with new equipment.  Built a monitoring lab to comply with water quality and HCP requirements.  They are the only wood products company in California to have made these investments.  Sierra Pacific Industries on the other hand has closed one mill and shipped it to Washington state.  They and others are quitely liquidating thier "higher and better useage" lands.  Read development properties.

To everyones amazement its turned out ok so far, but probably not as well if the previous owners had managed to keep it.  It was thought that Hurwitz would cut and run but so far that has not happened.

[UrbanLogger]

Tillaway,

I agree with you that we taxpayers got milked on the Headwaters buyout--too bad Hurwitz couldn't be magnanimous like the family was when they negotiated the State Park preserves years back.

I also agree that the current situation on Palco lands is better than once feared but I believe this has more to do with the Board of Forestry's diligence and constant pressure from the public than Hurwitz's love for the forest.

As for Hurwitz, I'd still like to see him get tagged for his role in the savings and loan fiasco.

 

[Tillaway]

Some folks are a bit miffed that he didn't pay back the S&L deal with the headwaters.  Either way the whole thing was all botched up from the beginning.

The current management at Palco is probably the driving force behind the good things that have happened there.  The BOF in California has no say on business decisions.

[Cedarman]

I am green enough that I would like to see a yard tax. It would be better to run a chainsaw every so often than a lawnmower 6 months of the year.  The most polluted land we have are the yards that are kept green and free of weeds through the excess use of chemicals and fertilizers.  I am in favor of a progressive tax based on the size of the yard.  The bigger the yard the higher the tax rate.  I see too many farms and woodlands broken up and several acres bulldozed and made into yards when trees would be a lot better.  
I have read about people who died after walking across a golf course because too many chemicals were used.
I would like to know how many treehugging wackos live in houses with big suburban yards or apartment complexes with big manicured courtyards and work for companies that have huge yards around there offices.  Take a drive to the burbs and see.  
Save our environment, shoot a riding lawn mower!

[Striker]

Not knowing much about the ECO saws, I just wonder what makes you so much greener? (acorrding to the traditional millers) It is still a machine that can be used to draw and quarter murdered trees.
From what I have seen of it it looks like it is worth looking into. ( the saw mill that is)

Jeff

[sprucebunny]

Cedarman- I like your idea alot!!

[Bruce_A]

I can't agree with trespassing to hinder private enterprise.  As to shooting those lawn mowers, I am totally against that.  I have about ten of them sitting in my yard. They make great toys to holler at the grand kids to get off of.  My half acre of yard gets mowed two or three time a year and I fertilize most of it with oil and drippings from the junk that "wackos" don't want to pay to get rid of.  If it doesn't look or smell bad it ain't fertilizer.  I recycle anything I can make a buck on easy, which is about 500 ton so far this year.  If you don't get your hands dirty, you have to pay one way or another.  If you don't like logging, try wiping with plastic.  And last, but not least, Ilove my job, love my boss, I'm self-employed.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not sure I like that tax.  I have a big yard, never use chemicals and got rid of the riding mower for a commercial walk behind.  Maybe we should just tax the chemicals.  

I remember my uncle telling me that there was a time when most people didn't have yards.  They would farm right up to the back door.

But, then I read a blurb that the rich people had vast front "yards" which were actually pastures.  They kept them groomed with sheep.  In those days, the more sheep you had was an indication of how much money you had.

Eventually, when the lawn mower came about, the lower class could put on aires about having a nice yard without the sheep.  Seems like the idea has stuck.

[SwampDonkey]

Mowing lawns with sheep reminds me of my grand father. He never mowed a lawn in his life. If enough complaining was made by grand mother, he'd just go fetch the cow and tether her to the tree. It was my uncle that started mowing and sything and has never stopped. He mows for the cemetary, several elderly folks and his cousins next door who live in Toronto,ON and Truro, NS. He's up before the sun every day of the week, but mows 5 days a week. But, only in the morning hours. Three days a week he looks after an elderly lady on the indian reserve. Most every evening he gets invited to the local dance halls by the local widow women or plays cards in the evenings in winter months and has a good life.

The extend of his wood cuttin is firewood for him and cousins next door off a woodlot they all share. Doesn't get too excited in life and is further ahead than most folks pounding and slaving away at the old uphill grind. He sold some inherited woodland and road frontage to live off, and the woodland was not clearcut by the buyer. He only cleared 10 acres of frontage, as that was the deal. He always had a cow and a horse until 2 years ago, which weren't making him any money for several years.  Not everyone could do this because they didn't have a father like grand father was that left him something more than a brush pile. Grand father pretty much did what he had to for the family's sake and also never got excited over anything. If you came along and mentioned hunting or fishing all work ceased and off they went. Now if we could all live like those folks.

[BW_Williams]

I keep one foot in the black, so-called enviromentalist are killing my forest.  Let's get back to practical forest managment or it all will be burnt down before our children get to make the decision.  Haven't seen very many greeners on the fire line.  BWW

[Arthur]

Striker

Its not the EcoSaw that the large milling companies have given me agro over its the local meeting attended with views spoke.

54% of our local shire is controlled by the NSW forestry department.  The Bellingen area is renown for its natural splender and backs onto a world heritage site. The area has been logged for the last 150 year.  Most of the private owned land like our farm is regrowth but we are  reminded by the forestry department and the local GREEN PARTY that the views are only there because the forest has another few years of growth yet before being logged.

The logging will be clear felling mainly supplying logs to mills outside our area.

NO benefit to the area, NO employment for the area, just dust, noise and 100ton trucks on our childrens bus routes.

My outspoken views have been the sustainable forest management with selective logging using portable sawmills.  EcoSaw, Lucas, Peterson,  etc. it doesnt matter to me.  

By selective logging a good portion of trees can be left for the views and future large logs when the regrowth can continue to give the views when the large trees are eventuly taken.  This benefits the habitat, the tourist and the ecology.

I should get my paper out and attach but I dont wish to bore any futher.

[TN_man]

We bought some land that had been clear cut several years back. Ours neighbors say that every time it rained the road was covered with another layer of mud (my topsoil) . We save up the sawdust that we generate and use it for bedding for our cows when we move them in the barn for the winter. We mix in a little corn and oates with the sawdust when we spread it out. At the end of the winter our stall (40x16) has about 3 to 4 ft. of compost. After we move the cows back into the fields in the spring, we move the pigs into the cow stall for about 8 weeks. They root around digging up that fermented corn and oates, not knowing that they are turning our compost pile for us, and have good time doing it . We then use this compost to build back up the top soil we lost and fertilize our fields at the same time. You should see the huge diiference it is making year after year. We have not gotten back to where we could have been, but we are getting aliitle bit each year. I think that God would have us to make the world alittle better place, morally and phsyically, for having lived here. He put us here to be stewards of His land. Jeff

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well put Jeff, we are stewards of this world,free to use it and destined to care for it

[Buzz-sawyer]

Aurther
A very common view of forest management here on the forum.............and I believe reasonable to do  ......esthetic enjoyment, sustainable use and respect for the land.......good karma be good to mother, she is good to you  

[Patty]

Well put, Buzz. I couldn't agree more. Taking care of the land that provides for us is a good carma thing. Norm & I both so much enjoy our little piece of paradise, we would never think of  harming it in any way. Too bad most folks don't get the opportunity to enjoy the land. Even more too bad that it is those same folks who think they need to tell me how to care for my land.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Patty
I think by nature , man has inborn caretaker tendencies....for our world .
It makes us feel "right" and fullfilled in a higher way than some of our more base tendencies.

to take what we want the He@@ with the consequences.......
Isnt it fun when a government agency that knowns better than you, how to care for your place, tells you how much of your corn "Thier" deer can eat before they allow you to do somethin about it...............

truth is if they managed your place it would recieve NO love...they are a sterile...heartless beurocracy...

for the most part ran by people who go home to cut thier lawn and watch tv after telling you whats right for you and your land you watch over

[Ron Wenrich]

I think I may have to disagree with you somewhat.  I've seen privately managed stands and state government managed stands.  By and large, the state does a better job than most private jobs.

The state takes care of their roads, they do selective harvests in some areas and clearcutting in others and no cutting in others.  They fight fires when necessary, manage wildlife, aesthtics and other non-timber products.  They maintain a steady source of timber for the neighboring mills.  They do all this without throwing up a "No Trespassing" sign.  

And every one of those foresters have a love of stewardship equal to any landowner.  They could choose to work in the private sector for more money, but they don't.  They don't deserve all the hard knocks that they get.

[Tom]

I"ve seen some beautiful government backed stands of timber.  The National forests around here are a good example.  The don't harvest much anymore because of the threat of litigation so the timber falls and rots in place.   That is causing some of the fire hazard that some talk about.  It also makes it more difficult to get into the forests for management practices.  

While the Government foresters do a good job, it is their job they are doing.  I believe the bad taste landowners have for the Government is its tendency to "trespass" upon the landowner's rights and find some way of mandating that the landowner do the government's bidding rather than allowing the landowner to do his own.   That's not an agenda of any government forester I know but it is of some of the political bureaucracies.  (I have one specific local tax assessor in mind right now)  He claims to be schooled in Forestry and has been know to threaten landowners with performing a sale immediately or losing their Agricultural zoning.  He makes judgements on the health of your plantation and whether your management policies match his, etc.  It's not the "real" foresters with their recommendations that intimidate landowners but it is the bureaucrats who can make life difficult for a citizen that does.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Fine to disagree....
I said ,"for the most part"

thats my experience in the larger perspective of natural resource managent  

[SwampDonkey]

Well around these parts when wood is harvested off private lands its most often a high grade or a clearcut. For some reason the folks aren't focused on the quality of residual trees to leave, just on the the ones they want. Alot of woodlots have many trees left behind that were suppressed or in poor form or the whole stand is near decadence from age or past budworm outbreaks. And there are many landowners that don't care if wood is ever cut from their land (which I personally am not against), because they have a job to go to every day and aren't too concerned about the woodlot. One example I don't like to see is this guy says his crew thinned or did selection in a hardwood stand and all ya see standing are suppressed or weak, spindly hardwood that'll not likely die before a person has to start to pre-commercially thin the stand. Then because of all that residual trashwood in the stand some guy in government says its too much overstory, so we aren't going to thin the new growth.

On company or crown lands they tend to be more wise to the effects of silviculture and if a contractor's crew doesn't perform to best management practices or company harvest policy, then they're out of work. Now I'de have to say the best management practices movement has come into being over the last 12 years in my area. Because when I used to travel company and crown land forest roads there used to be oil jugs, split oil in yards, skidders runnin up and down brooks...etc. I've been on crown hardwood stands where they were high graded by a hardwood mill leaving behind trash wood  and calling it good management because they were following the licensees management plan.  

When the big industrial forest companies felt a strong breeze blowing behind the certification movement and new environmental laws they began to change their ways. Now all NB crown lands are under certification and most Industrial freehold forest lands are as well. Nobody wanted to take the risk of not being certified and possibly loosing markets or forest licenses. Certification hasn't seemed to phase private woodlot owners any because they are against someone else telling them how to run their lives. I do several management plans on private and not a single person has expressed interest in attaining any sort of certification. They want to know what its all about, but aren't committed to it. I believe the reason for this is that the woodlot is only there to supplement their income and they don't have enough wood ground to have a sustainable annual income and they want something substantial in return for this certification. What was enough 30 years ago isn't any longer because operating costs and living expenses have out paced returns from those 100 or 200 acre woodlots.  A 4 wheel drive pickup costs as much as a new modular home, which is totally insane. Same thing happened to farming. Everyone in the business has become slaves to the banks and finance companies.

Currently, there are several trial certification private lots in the province that hope to be part of the PanCanadian certification system. It remains to be seen what benefit this is to any woodlot owner or woodlot association. And what will be the costs?

Ok I said quite a mouthful already.

[Norm]

Thank goodness we still have some private property rights in the US, government owned land for the good of all has always been a disaster, think collective farms in the good old USSR. Last national forest I was in had more rules and regulations than you could believe. State owned land here is off limits for all but the controlling government agency. I take care of my land better than any federalista's, so do my neighbors. We depend on it for the food on our's and your table.

The no tresspassing signs on our place are to keep the county assessor off.

[Cedarman]

The latest Sawmill and Woodlot magazine ends with an article by Steve Bratcovitch. Steve decided to e-mail a writer about some misinformation in an article. Steve ended up getting an invite to discuss his points on the air.  Steve's point is that we need to do what we can to educate others, join organizations that promote good forestry, and not just sit back and bemoan the junk left growing next door.

[SwampDonkey]

Beleive me there's been lots of effort put into educating woodlot owners in this province over the last 30 years. The majority of the folks that attend courses are the weekend doodler that only supplement income from wood they harvest. They have regular jobs they drive to during the week. The trouble from a harvest contractor's stand point is that his costs go up with increased effort to do the best thing for the land, and the mills don't pay more for his efforts and the land owner wants the maximum he can get. So, since the woodlot owner wants to maximize profit from the harvest, he sells the wood lump sum to be clearcut because that's the only way he can get his stumpage rate. I know of some folks that try to do the best they can for the woodlot owner are barely getting by, while the wife has a job nursing or teaching to keep the operation above water.  I agree the woodlot would be better looked after in general if the owner did the work. The owner can't make a living off the woodlot only. In my area there are over 450 members of the woodlot association and over 400 of those produce under 300 cord a year, the rest is harvested by contractors that produce 90 % of the volume. So if you do the math and assume those small operators cut about 150 cords a year on average and assume they net $40/cord after operating costs, they have $6000 in their pocket. I don't think your going to have enough food for Christmas* dinner after you take out all your living expenses and income tax. The only guy living on that is someone that never left the nest to go look for a full time job. This is why I say that in these times the woodlot only supplements the annual income of the majority or in some cases its just sittin idol and in alot of cases the wood has been harvested  a long time ago and its gonna be a very long time before there is wood to cut again on that woodlot. If you live in northern Maine and you cross over into New Brunswick your going to see a big difference in woodlot management. There are way more clearcuts over here on private land. We just aren't getting enough value from the wood harvested unless there is some kind of value added process, such as operating your own sawmill with your own wood. And I know alot of those private mills that are idol more days than they are running. One is just up the road and they don't saw wood until about December through to April and not every day, maybe 2 days a week. And they buy all there cedar. They came here and got land real cheap from bankrupt farmers, hired woods contractors to clearcut everything and now have to buy wood. Go figure that one out.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've seen a lot of the "educate the landowner" scenarios.  I even offered an evening course in woodlot management at the local community college.  I got 5 responses and they didn't book it.

I've helped woodlot owner organizations get started.  None ever lasted more than 5 years.  

The only successful educational thing that foresters have done is to promote Smokey the Bear.  It was so successful that now you can't convince people that we need controlled burns.  

You've gotta do the management work before the harvest.  After 30 years of educating the landowner, I wonder when its going to kick in.  

[Arthur]

On average we only mill hardwoods two days a week but this gives plenty of wood to value add.  The rest of the time is taken in drying and value adding.

after spending many thousands buying dressing equipment most of the wood goes out as decking.  

Just by air drying the wood we increase the value from $500/cu m to over $1200/cu m.  Finished decking is over $3000/cu m.

By taking the time and effort we have reduced the number of trees needing to come down and ALL the waste is used back on the farm.

Paid for the mill in 6 months, the dressing equipment in another 12 months and currently pays our mortgage.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron:

Yup have to have to mind set to manage the woodlot for starters, then plan it all out, then implement. Also, have to have the returns from your hard work to allow you to implement it to.

Our best Management Practices courses always have had excellent turn outs and folks who attended them have always had positive things to say. Only trouble recently is the Provincial Forest extension was cancelled and a new organization was formed to take their place. This organization is funded by the Federation of Woodlot Owners in NB and their job has been to update and enhance the old material they inherited for the past 3 years. So our local assocation has not been putting these courses on for the past 3 years now. But they have been sponsoring first aid, chain saw safety and maintenance courses, all free. Some assocations have gone ahead and put other courses on and are even more active than ours at the moment. Interestingly, I haven't gotten an up to date newsletter this year and before we used to get them bi-monthly. That is why I advertise with 'Atlantic Forestry Review' and have a 2 year subscription, so I can be informed. Also, there are all new staff who have no experience in organizing such courses and they are waiting for the material to get updated before they go ahead with the management courses. With any course its all in the presentation of the material and not getting too technical so the woodlot owner knows what's being presented. I for one couldn't sit there for 3 hours and listen to the manager of our local association attempt to put on a course. It would be totally frustrating because he's not a confident speaker, and I know he couldn't keep my interest that long. As I said before, the folks that attend most these courses are the weekend 'doodlers' or weekend loggers and for the most part those folks try to do their best, for sure. Won't find too many big farmers, with larger woodlots, to those courses unless they are semi retired. I do know one old fella though that is a large land owner and was a big farmer. He sold his farmland and kept the woods, and to this day the old guy watches over things even though he can't drive himself and is half blind. He really cares about his ground. He's got 4 sons that couldn't give a flying ...... about the woods. To them its there to be cut and sold to fill their pockets when the old guy kicks off.

The trouble with all this education over the last 30 years is that its not getting to the large operators who cut the vast majority of the wood. You've got to show them that it is a great benefit to them to attend these courses, hasn't happened. Then when the local association recently found out that the AAC in our area is far above the volume being harvested, it just causes more passivism. They're gonna keep on with the old ways as long as they don't break environmental laws or tresspass

[UrbanLogger]

My buddy Clint Trammel was on NPR today talking about the management of Leo Drey's Pioneer Forest in Missouri.

Y'all can check it out at

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3862208
 

[SwampDonkey]

 Link to a lecture on New Brunswick Woodlot Owner Associations

[Cedarman]

We have more than 700 members in the Indiana Foresty and Woodland Owners Association.  There have been good turn outs for the forestry field days.  In Indiana research has shown that there is good money in managing woodlands.
But we still have way to many landowners that let loggers cut the best and leave the rest. As more owners are aware of what they can do to help their woods, more of them do so. Most owners do not know a thing about their woods.  We heavily promote the use of consulting foresters to assist.
Also the general public needs to be educated as much as possible about our renewable resource.

[Tom]

[SwampDonkey]

Cedarman:

I concur. The 450 members in our association is only one of seven provincial associations. Some have over 1000 members and there are about 40,000 small private woodlot owners (an owner with under 2,500 acres). All the associations come together under the Federation of Woodlot Owners which has existed for 21 years. Some associations are 43 years old. There are at least two woodlot demonstrations per year in the province and each association chooses a woodlot owner of the year in which the industry gives cash awards or trees for planting. Some industrial companies also help with the cost of semi-commercial thinning programs in softwood stands, some with hardwood commercial thinning. Our assocaition receives $100,000 from the hardwood pulp mill and each producer of wood contributed 0.5% of wood sales toward a management fund. The amount contributed by mills is based on annual wood deliveries and isn't a sure thing. Annual sales is over $10 million and on a slow incline with more value from hardwood now and implementation of provincial wood tracking system. More folks are becoming wise to sorting their hardwood veneer and sawlog from the pulp pile.

[SwampDonkey]

Tom:  like your stick people

Yup, yup, yup.....only thing is, it has stagnated. No real job growth for the last 10 years since mill upgrades, globalization and increased efficency. More seasonal forestry workers now. Enrollment in Forestry schools is on the decline.

cheers

[Tom]

Sometimes it is all in the perspective.

We tend to look at the world through our own window and suffer from self-fulfilling prophesies.

Really, what are our goals?

Can one take his education and sit on the park bench waiting for someone to discover that he is the one they need?

Can one offer seminars to the population to generate income and not become a teacher by profession?

Can the population come running to an advertisement on a class in a far-away town and spend its money on time, room and board when "school", in his life,  was only something to get away from?

Can a fellow sit in the woods and let his trees rot down around him, expecting someone, out of the goodness of their heart, to come save him?

Can we commandeer anothers property to force him to do our bidding and call it freedom?

Can a man invent/discover, in his lifetime, all there is to know about the land, the forest, the science that it takes him to be successful?

From a Forester's perspective, he may wonder why nobody hires him or uses his education.

From a small land-owner's perspective, he may wonder why there aren't any Forester's out there running a business?

From a large land-owner's perspective, he may be proud of himself for providing that one job for the starving Forester, not understanding why there are so many starving Foresters.

There is one thing a man should never forget and that is "we work for ourselves."  

To be successful, we either have to be born into money and a position, be very lucky and have life handed to us or get out there and "SELL" ourselves.  

I have seen apathy real close.  What do you say to a young man who says "There isn't any work out there",  when he didn't finish high-school, showed no interest in college or trades, never seriously looked for work, argued with the boss in every menial job he ever held and has spent the last 10 years sitting on couch, watching a TV, mooching off of family and friends and repeating, "there isn't any work out there, the economy is sure bad, it's the President's fault".

If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a noise?

What are we selling?
When do we give up?
Do we expect the hoards to go to the mountain, or do we bite the bullet and take the mountain to the people.
If you sell to someone and he doesn't buy, do you try to sell him tomorrow?
Do we quit because our customer won't do what we want, or do we try to find out what the customer wants and discover some way to help him make it happen?

Do we quit the sawing business because the price of pallet wood goes down, or do we look at producing flooring?
Do we quit our job because the price of fuel went up, or do we walk to work?

We are all guilty of finding some reason that we haven't been able to succeed in one effort or another. Usually it is because the world wouldn't do our bidding.

That little do-dad I drew has 4 sides.  One can get a different perspective depending on which of 3 he looks at it.

Do you know who these fellow are?
A.J. Albritton, Sterling Allan, Stanford Andress, Joe Bellis
Kenneth Bonnell, Harry Braun, Fred Cook, Eric J. Davis, Georgia  Hough, Keith Judd, David Mevis, Andrew Rotramel, Joseph Schriner, Tom wells, A.J. Wildman

They are 15 of 35  write-in candidates for President of the USA, to date.

If, and when, they aren't elected, will it be your fault for not discovering them?

I don't mean to get on my high-horse and, even though I may sound like I'm mad or disgusted, I'm not.  I just want to bring up the fact that there is always another side to every coin.  If things don't go the way we want, have we found an excuse, or are we looking for another way to succeed.

Is the problem solved if the "doodlers" all study and become Foresters so that they can look after their own land?  What does the Forester who wants to provide a service do for a profession then?

[SwampDonkey]

One thing I've been pondering lately is :

Why do people clearcut their land and then decide to do a management plan?   Not all woodlots I do plans on are clearcuts, but a large percentage is. This year its been 75 % clearcuts (over 50 % of the land was clearcut on these lots) so far. I have a feeling that some folks think the silviculture program will fix their woodlot. Then again, who would give them this idea?

To be quite honest with you Tom, I think alot of foresters have looked at alot of your points and questions. I know the majority of them have gone through my mind.

I've also been pondering over the fact that there aren't many (if any) industrial foresters, on the forum. I know we have some from government and self employed folks, but where are the industrial foresters. Interesting. Raise your hand, one only please, for the head count.

cheers

[OneWithWood]

Hey Cedarman.  The IFWOA and other active organizations in Indiana are having some impact.  
There are two field days coming up that may be of interest to area folks who have an interest in environmental issues and management techniques.  On Sept. 18 there is a field day at the Meyers farm in Johnson county sponsored by IFWOA and on Oct. 9 there is a field day at my place sponsored by SWCD.  Our district forester, Ralph Unversaw, and a Purdue Extension Wildlife biologists, Brian McGowan, will be leading tours and discussing timber management, BMPs, wildlife cover, edge habitats and food plots.  I will be demonstrating my Woodmizer mill and discussing how I have financed the timber and wildlife management activities through selective harvests and my own timber/milling activities.  We will even be providing a chili lunch for those that come out.  For more info see the Forestry Education board.
Here is a link:

http://www.forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=edu;action=display;num=29

[Tom]

We clearcut as a management practice here because our crop is pine.  Pine doesn't do well in un-even aged stands. Interspersed pine taken from a hardwood forest won't return.  It needs light, specific amounts of room and little competition.

I know, as a forester, you know this.  I just wanted to describe an instance of a valid clear-cut.  While pine stands can be thinned, they usually end their rotation in a clear-cut, land-prep and re-plant.  

I have read that Aspen is treated much the same way, is that true?

To develop a management plan after a 'first" clear-cut may be folly.  That is more of a row-crop farmers mentality than a tree farmer mentality. It may happen because the owner knows no different.  Someone needs to get to him and tell him.  If there is no Forester on the prowl, looking for a customer, then the only contact is the logger. Someone in the industry with an inkling of forest management needs to make the owner aware of what his options are.  The loggers are out there knocking on doors, looking for wood, perhaps they should be the initial "Forester". Perhaps the Foresters should be working for the loggers. (?)  Perhaps a procurement forester is quite valuable to the perpetuation of the industry.

Not all land owners leap before they jump. It takes a special breed though to study and follow through with the idea of being a tree farmer, not just a land-owner  When the goal is urban development, a replaced forest is not in the cards. It's those mis-guided landowners who need to have their door knocked upon; and not after the trees are all gone.

[Ron Wenrich]

Hey Swamp.  I might have to put my hand up part way.    I've been a procurement forester.  Did I do good management?  Yep.  And I know of a few procurement foresters that do good work.  The ones with the local paper company do better work than most other foresters, since they aren't really interested in crop trees.

They took a poll of private landowners in our state when they did the timber inventory.  They found that the primary and secondary reasons for owning timberland was not timber production.   Aesthetics was number one, if I recall.

Maybe we're just not on the same page.  We talk about mangement plans, silviculture and harvesting and they're talking about green backgrounds, birds and deer.  We also have to recognize that non-management is a management option.  

So, if timber production isn't a primary motivation, why should the landowner persue forest management?  We know, but the landowner does not even have the slightest idea of how much their timber is worth or how much it could be worth.

I tried attacking that angle by trying to sell appraisal services to guys that could use it - realtors, real estate appraisers and banks.  Never had any bites.  How much can a bunch of trees be worth?, is their reasoning.

I don't know if I've seen anything that shows the landowner how much trees increase in value as size and quality increases.  Maybe they would be more motivated if they treated their timber assets like a financial asset.  

[SwampDonkey]

Up this way, where there is aspen, there is also balsam fir. They seem to be compatible species where one is intolerant to shade, quickly dominating the tree canopy and the other is very shade tolerant living in the understory and co-dominant. Sometimes the understory fir is as much as 20 years older than the poplar that tower over the top of it. Both species are fast growing and short lived, well short for a tree. Roughly 60 to 90 years. With fir they live closer to 90 in the north and fall down around age 60 in the south (in NB). Add the spruce budworm to the equation and you can't crawl through the deadfall and thick fir regen. These stands are best managed with clear cutting. Some folks haven't woke up to the fact that a 60 year old fir can be 5 inches and it can also be 14 inches on the same site. Beleive me there has been plenty effort to prove it, but its hard for some to grasp when all their in tune to is tree size, since that's what's marketable at the mill. Age doesn't mean anything to the mill as long as it meets specs.

White pine is long lived and shade tolerant until pole sized. It will be around for several generations of poplar and fir and will even survive fires if not real severe. I know a stand that had survived 2 fires, one 90 years ago and another 60 years ago. It regenerates best on disturbances and grows faster than most softwoods, even balsam fir. I think they manage red pine with controlled fires in Ontario. In New Brunswick its not a significant component of the forest, although thousands of acres have been planted on abandoned fields and some cutovers.

Row crop farmer is right, they are usually farmers clear cutting to pay farm bills. Or older folks that have to cut the land to pay for thier room and board at the old folks home, or siblings that subdivide the estate and cash in after the folks kick off. Or a renegade logger that knows the owner lives and works 100 miles away from the woodlot.

A point worth mentioning is that if you need to go into a home and you have assets such as forest land, a house and investments etc.  The government basically seizes those assets or they have to be sold to pay your way. This is in New Brunswick. If you have family and you plan to leave them anything, you have to turn it over to them 5 years before you go to a home or lose it. Isn't that just lovely?

One thing you may have been overlooking about the forester. The forester is always knockin on the door and sometimes he's the logger to. For the majority of folks the forester is a middleman and land owners and loggers would just as well eliminate the middle man because that's more $$ in his own pocket.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron:

Well if its any comfort, you and I are on the same wavelength for sure, just side step'in in different directions sometimes.

Putting your hand up, doesn't make you a target, by the way. I just want a head count. Like to see more from big industry on here. I've cruised other forums on forestry in canada and they are pretty much idol or have no participation. Dunno why. Must be shy, scared or something. shrug!

Ron, I can definately believe your recollection of the land ownership pole. That has to be the reason folks in NW Virginia own land because they never cut wood, maybe a pickup load for stovewood.  I never saw a sawmill or loggin truck for miles around, just solid forests with 4 lane highways down through'em.

I think most foresters know and agree that doing nothing is a management goal to, I concur. I have relatives that have forest land sitting idol. The old man said not the cut it, so its never been cut since he died and that's been almost 50 years ago. Even the fields he grew big gardens in have loggable softwood and poplar now. They all had jobs that didn't include forestry so it never bothered them. And yup, over 30% of the natural forest volume has fallen down and has regenerated. Some mess to crawl through. But there is an old road that follows a brook that everyone including the neighbors keep cleared out to hike on or ski on. I hike it to see the big white spruce and poplar along it. I like look'n at the trees standing there too ya know. The poplar is 75 feet tall in there, start'n to fall down now though.

Treating the forest land as a financial asset as been the problem here. Way to many have been cashing in.

I also approached the realtors on the appraissal angle, and as you say, there's ZERO interest.  They just see a middle man, which is a big turn off. But, I got ahead of one realtor who thought he was gonna get my fathers forest land for nothing. He applied $50/acre on it all. I said listen up bub, reforested land costs $450/acre to replant, fully stocked regrowth is worth $300/acre, swampland is $50/acre and mature woodland is going for $750/acre. I measured all the land and divided it according to stand types and got an average and said this is what we're gettin. As you say they have no clue and I don't know where they get this $50/acre stuff. I can't buy it for that. If so, where is it?

[Mark M]

Forgive my ignorance but what is an Eco-Saw?

[SwampDonkey]

Excuse me while I  


Ok, now I'm done.

Mark, your a handful.

[Tom]

It's a turmoil generator, Mark.

http://www.forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=sawmill;action=display;num=1092799931;start=0

[SwampDonkey]

Here's one of them fire gutted white pine, still alive after two fires.

Wanna step inside my white pine? Close the door behind ya, to keep the skeeters out. This pine is ~ 50 inch dbh on a cousin's woodlot.

[SwampDonkey]

Ok, here's a stand of w-pecker poles for ya. The spruce are longer lived and green as you can see. The white birch has invaded areas with more light as the stand becomes decadent. This is in a provincial park.



Notice the clumped maple on left edge of image. It suckered from a fire killed tree or one heavy browsed by deer. This was burnt land in the 40's. Now the fir is decadent from age and possibly budworm damage in the 80's. Although, no major outbreak of budworm since the early 90's. Photo is 8 years old.