Cryogenics

[RSteiner]

When I was involved with it years ago, I don't think the process has changed, it was very important to cool the mass at a certian rate, leave it "soak" in the cold for a set period of time and then rewarm the parts at a certain rate.  All the times and temps were critical to the sucess of the process.

Being the process takes considerable time the operator I dealt with said if we got parts to them on Thursday they ran them over the weekend and shipped them back on Monday.

As far as results it was very dependant on the type of material and the prior heat treating process.  Positive results were noticed many times or they were measurable rather than intuitive.  Sometimes just because you think it is better it feels like it is, like washing and waxing your car makes it feel like it runs better.

As someone has said, is the return on investment worth it given the price of a loop of chain.   At a treatment price of around $5.00 a loop that is 25% of the cost of the chain, I doubt that any one will or can say for sure that you will be getting that much or more performance out of a treated chain.  With chainsaws the cutting conditions vary so greatly from minute to minute it is really difficult to measure a difference.

Randy

[sigidi]

Hey there fokes,

been watching this one from the begining.

Now not to get anyone upset, but Ken all the instances you state from folkes who have had the process done are situations where the metal doesn't reach the temps expected on a chain when cutting. Folkes in industry doing mutiple drilling/maching tasks do so with lubricant applied all the time. Chain just doesn't have the removal of heat that those applicatons do, chipper's I'd think wouldn't reach the temps of saw chain either??

My understanding of the process is that it would be good for a saw chain initially, but would be nulliffied the first time the operator ran it too long and got it HOT!!

Ok we all know if the operator hits a stone or metal then this will dothe same thing, but there isn't a loss of extra $'s as compared to a new chain.

Anyway, just my 2cents

[kenskip1]

Sigid,
 You make a Valid point. Can you just imagine what the  EPA would do if the saw had constant lubrication on the chain? BAck to the issue at hand. As I stated early in the opening of this thread is that chains are made of Soft material. If a cryo treartment would help make the chain Stronger then would this be possibly cost effective? As two the temperature of a chain during operation this could vary with the climate and physical location, Ken

[sigidi]

Ken,

yes as far as metal goes, chain metal is 'softer' than other metals, but would making it harder make it better?

I know you get those handsaws with the hardened teeth, which once blunt are cheaper to throw away than get re-sharpened etc.

I don't know enough about saw chain to pretend that I know if it could be more useful 'harder' than it already is, but just 'cause folkes felt gas lighting was good and the best solution for that time, didn't stop old mate Edison from making light globes did it?

Now, I am interested in the idea of making saw chain last longer between sharpens, but just can't get over the idea of it gaining heat and thus nullifying the cryo process. As an example, my woodworking chisel, I know that it's been hardened to a specific Rockwell, and this helps it keep it's edge and thus perform longer between sharpens. BUT, if when sharpening, I blue that chisel with the grinder, I've done serious damage to the hardening and thus compromised the benefits of the hardening process. My concern with the saw chain cryo process is that the saw chain regularly gets HOT in proper application and sometimes gets REALLY HOT, if occasionally misused. I see this heating as having a detrimental effect on the cryo process.

Do you know if any studies have been performed to see what kind of temp a piece of metal (which has been cryo treated) will lose the benefits of cryo treating? and for those that know, is this in the normal operating temps for saw chain?

For me this is the big question to be answered regarding the use of cryo on saw chain. Ability to sharpen is not an issue, i mean you can sharpen your chisel easily enough, right? also many other pieces of metal can still be worked after being hardened etc, So I figure the sharpening wouldn't be the issue, the added cost would be and the effectiveness of treatment at temperature would be whats needed to be looked at.

After all lets say a fella gets a loop of chain for $20, cryo is then $5 more, you would want your chain to last at least twice as long as when it wasn't cryo treated, for it to seem worthwhile going to the hassle of sending your chain off, a little bit longer (maybe 20-30 secs) in sharpening and possibly a little bit more effort to sharpen. It would need to outlast it's untreated brother by twice to be a viable alternative.

A quick side to this also, I'd say you would have to buy cryo chains as I would only want the cutters treated not the drive links.

[RSteiner]

Sidigi

The observations you make are very well put especially about the temps a chian can see while in use.  The heat produced from trying to push a dull chain through a log affects the steel whether it has been cryo treated or not.

Once a piece of metal has been heated enough it affects the grain structure making it softer and less able to hold an edge.  If a chain was as hard as a chisel it would probably chip when the first rock or hard thing was hit. 

I have cut too long with a dull chain before and taken the hardness out of it, after sharpening it the edge would not last long at all until it was sharpened past the heat affected area.

So, it doesn't make any difference if something has been cryo treated or not if you over heat it either using it or sharpening it the hardness is affected.  As far as the heat seen at the cutting edge of a chain saw tooth it is much higher than one would think.  The metal behaind the edge is there to conduct away that heat.  I was once told that on a wood planner knife the very cutting tip temps can reach over 1000 F.  Push a dull knife too much and you can turn it blue.

Randy
Randy

[GF]

I was watching the online aution they had here for the State Of Okla, they had a cryp deep freeze that went down to -300 according to there information, they also said it worked fine.  Kept thinking why I should buy it but could not come up with a good reason, thing sold for $200.  I had heard about using them for steel etc but really didnt research it to much.