taxes

[Bruce_A]

Anyone ever given any thought to doing away with all forms of taxation except for  a sales tax.  You would only pay on what you spend, and no individual could lose if they didn't have it to start with.

[Ron Wenrich]

They're talking about that here in my state.  They said that if they reduced the sales tax from 6% to 4.5% and taxed everything, then they could do away with all local property taxes.

We don't have sales taxes on necessity items.  That would all change.  Food and clothing would be taxed.  No big deal.

Your utilities would be taxed.  Fuel oil, electric, water, sewage, garbage, and phone.  

Your services would be taxed.  Going to the doctor?  Sales tax.  Accountant?  Sales tax.  Forester?  Sales tax.

There would be taxes on business to business transactions.  Your sawlogs just got more expensive.  Same goes for your saw blades, your mill,  and just about anything else that is currently exempt..

The only thing tax exempt would be gasoline and drugs.  Crutches, bandages, etc would be taxed.  I believe they would even tax insurance.  Going to the hospital would be taxed.

Yes, you could choose what you want taxed.  As long as you didn't use anything, you could get away pretty cheap.  Its a good idea until you put it into practice.

My dad used to say if they could figure out how much air you breathed, they would tax that.  

[Frickman]

Ron, I haven't heard much about that on this end of the state. Mostly they're talking about slot machines. I don't have a problem with sales tax at the retail level. Business to business though would hit us pretty hard. Businesses would be buying out-of-state to avoid it.

[Tom]

You should have seen the tempers flare in Florida when the then Governor Martinez's watch tried to install a tax on services and also require all business' to have workman's comp right down to the owner.  You should have seen everybody scramble to complain.  

Have you ever had to deal with sale tax as a collector?  The Government assumes that you are a thief right off of the bat.  You have forms to fill out and records to keep and accounts to manage and bills to pay.......     If you are late with the paper work you are fined whether you owed money or not.  God forbid if you missed it all together.

Workman's comp is 70 cents on the dollar for a sawmill employee here.  The owner of the one man company all of a sudden  made a lot less.  I sure am glad it was rescinded.  "whew!"

We're lucky that the attack on sales tax exemptions didn't make it too.  It would have created a lot of new jobs in the state....Accountants!.

I don't know where all these tax mongers come from.  Now they are dead-set on levying an income tax.  The only reason they haven't been able to so far is because it would require a change in the State Constitution.  Time.....  that's all it'll take, a little time.  These folks have apparently come from somewhere where Taxes are coveted.  It's a shame that they get involved in politics in this state. It can almost make you appreciate a "Good-ol-Boy Network".

Want my vote?  Don't mention raising taxes.  You will lose me from then on, regardless of the rest of your platform.

[CHARLIE]

The IRS would never allow it. They employee too many people and if we went to a User Tax, all those people would lose their jobs. Plus, they need all the money they  can get cause it takes billions of our dollars just to run the IRS.

[SwampDonkey]

We pay tax on all the above except food at the grocery and medical expenses. We have a horrid tax called HST at 15% on all goods and services. So if ya sell a stack of lumber 15 times, 15 % tax applies.

[Bruce_A]

Hey now!!  I wouldn't mind paying 15% per sale if I could sell the same pile of lumber 15 times.

[SwampDonkey]

I ment for each change of custody.

[Frickman]

Swampdonkey,
That's the one I'm afraid of. It would kill B to B transactions.

[Percy]

I read a paper/website, cant remember for sure but it was similar to what you guys are saying. This tax that I read about was much higher, 30 percent on everything you buy I think, but it was the only tax. No Incometax, no property tax, , I give it a little thought, not so much on the business end but I liked the idea of drug dealers and criminals having to pay taxes for all their illgotten ferrari's and mansions .

[Stan]

Here in Tennessee we don't have an income tax, probably due to the anti tax riots in Nashville the last time the legislature considered one.
We had an 8.25 to 8.50% sales tax, and property tax, and now there's an additional 1% sales tax on non essentials.
The reason for the 1/4% differential above is the counties are permitted a 4.5% sales tax and the rural ones don't use it all.  

[Ron Wenrich]

I've always wondered where that arguement of drug dealers not paying any tax has come from.  They do buy things and they do pay the sales tax.  They live somewhere and pay property tax, even if through rent or motel fees.  What they avoid is the income tax.

The flat taxers would have us pay an additional 17% at the federal level to do away with the income tax.  I used to think that was OK.  I'm not so sure anymore.

Sales tax of that magniturde will kill a lot of industries, most notably the housing industry.  Add 17% to the housing costs and a lot of people are kicked out of the pool.

Without a food, services or clothing exemption, people on fixed incomes end up paying for more for goods and services.  But, more of their spending is on goods and services as compared to someone with higher income.  

In order to lower taxes, you must lower the expectations of your government - federal, state and local.  Our state government has a better drug plan than the new one passed by Medicare.  Its funded through the lottery.

In a cost cutting measure, our county turned out every 4th light in the courthouse and set the heat back to 68.  The workers responded by bringing in private heaters and added lights to their desks.  There was no appreciable savings.

Washington has sent down unfunded mandates that the locals have to figure out how to raise the cash.  They have 4 options - sales tax, nuisance tax, income tax, and property tax.  I'm all in favor of having Washington keep their mandates.

We can't be the policeman for the world.  Nation building is too expensive   Money is better spent on our infrastructure.

There's a reason that they tax the rich.  They're the only ones that can afford it.

[florida]

By imagining that a flat tax would lower your tax burden you don't give enough credit to our politicians. Our tax money is a politicians life blood and they aren't going to give it up period. It makes no difference to them even if they vote for a tax reduction. They know they're going to get it somewhere else. Okay, so they vote for an enact a flat tax of 17%. Are we so naive to believe that would be it? I hope not, because don't forget social security, state, local and sales taxes. In short order there would be bills mandating a value added tax like they have in England. The politicians would cry that there wasn't enough money and suddenly there would be user fees on stuff we had never thought about. 70% of the people in America are on the federal teat somehow and they all think it should be someone else who has to give theirs up. Until or unless that changes taxes will only go higher.

[Patty]

In Iowa we are burdened with a 7% sales tax, a very high income tax (3rd highest in the country I think), extremely high property taxes, corporate tax is sky high, and the list goes on & on. Every year they try to raise our taxes higher, sometimes they succeed, sometimes not.
Then they pretend to not understand why no business wants to locate in the state; so they  raise our taxes again to get someone to study why...It will drive you crazy if you allow yourself to think too much about it. I try very hard to just lay low, and avoid as much of it as I can. Kinda the way I avoid politicians!  

[Kedwards]

Our current tax system(federal) is regressive with the ultra wealthy legally sheltering their money either in offshore trusts or living revocable trusts or foundations. These instruments are corporate entities and are taxed but at different rates than you or I. I am definately in favor of a flat tax IF that was the only tax,  due to the reduced paper work and governmental reduction in personnel and waste. A Flat Tax is not regressive IF applied equally to all entities and the government pretty much knows what it need to charge in order to make our needs meet( ie our international credit rating from the pooled SSN and value attached to those numbers) Everything I have found is subject to the 80/20 rule 80% of the tax is paid by 20% of the people as is 80% of the wealth is controlled by 20% of the people. The reason a flat tax will not occur is because it would unemployee millions of people in government agencies and the private sector that are currently employed to keep track of this inane system. Another reason is because the loopholes that currently exist are too tempting to most wealthy(including senators) and will not be closed.

[Percy]

Our current tax system(federal) is regressive with the ultra wealthy legally sheltering their money either in offshore trusts or living revocable trusts or foundations. These instruments are corporate entities and are taxed but at different rates than you or I. I am definately in favor of a flat tax IF that was the only tax,  due to the reduced paper work and governmental reduction in personnel and waste. A Flat Tax is not regressive IF applied equally to all entities and the government pretty much knows what it need to charge in order to make our needs meet( ie our international credit rating from the pooled SSN and value attached to those numbers) Everything I have found is subject to the 80/20 rule 80% of the tax is paid by 20% of the people as is 80% of the wealth is controlled by 20% of the people. The reason a flat tax will not occur is because it would unemployee millions of people in government agencies and the private sector that are currently employed to keep track of this inane system. Another reason is because the loopholes that currently exist are too tempting to most wealthy(including senators) and will not be closed.

You are a smart person Kedwards. A flat tax would level the playing field for all(unfortunate for some,fortunate for others).  The whole disscussion is fun but  moot cause it aint gonna happen

[beenthere]

A flat tax would be great, IMO, and Reagan talked about trying to get it when he was Pres. and thought a flat 10% would bring in so much tax money that it would then be possible to drop it down to maybe just 6% (just remembering some numbers so they aren't quotable from any source). The point being that there would be no deductions, or loopholes, period. All income would be taxed at the same rate. Make a little, only pay a little. Make a lot, pay a lot.

Now taxes are where a vast share of lawyers make their money, helping clients dodge taxes and finding loopholes. So, there is not a snowballs chance that the lawyers (i.e. politicians included) would be in favor of anything that would put them out of business - so, as Percy said - it ain't gonna happen.

[rebocardo]

If we had a national and local VAT (value added tax) with no other license and permit fees, then when they raised rates you would actually know and be able to comprehend it.

[WeeksvilleWoodWorx]

Read about it here http://www.fairtax.org

[Bruce_A]

This is what I had in mind.  Somewhere there is a tax that only nails what you can afford and does not stop growth. Thankyou.

[Ron Wenrich]

That's what the income tax is supposed to be.  But, they have put so many loopholes in it that the wealthy don't really have to pay their share, even though they can afford it.  The poor can't afford it, so thy don't pay.  Guess that leaves the middle class to foot the bill.

[Stan]

There seems to be some confusion here. A regressive tax is one where the lower income bracket pays a higher proportion of their money, and example is sales tax.
Our current income tax is a progressive tax, the more you make the higher the percentage of your income you pay.
It is a good thing rich folks can hide some of their money, the top 3 percent are paying half of all income tax revenue.
Then there is the payroll tax, how much do you think Michael Jordon pays in medicare taxes? Could he ever get sick enough to spend that much?

[Tom]

Well, If the medical charges are "what the market will bare" and he was told "that's it chap";  I'll bet he would break the bank.

It's important that we consider the other side of the coin too.  If we had a Socialist State (such as some seem to want)  you wouldn't have to worry about taxes.  The Government would own it all and just dole it out to you as the bureaucrats felt you deserved.  (Man!  Talk about a level playing field) :-/ :-/

[Kedwards]

"You are a smart person Kedwards"


If you asked my wife she would tell you she married "Rain Man"   Oh well..

[Kedwards]

Stan,

Our tax system in CONCEPT is a progressive system, but in reality it tends to be regressive especially since the AMT tends to hit middle class people right in the kisser. A REGRESSIVE tax is one where lower income individuals pay a higher percentage of their gross income as you stated. The ROR of most wealthy don't exceed the same percent of less than what you or I pay( i am assuming you aren't in the 3% group) All I know is since the dividend tax break went into effect many of the ultra wealthy are paying a lot less in total income tax.

Tom,
Who wants a Socialist state? If so called socialist states don't work at all they shouldn't be in existence right? Case in point is Norway. Just an observation not an endorsement. Has anyone tallyed up the average taxes an indivual pasy in comparison to a socialist state to compare a cost to benefits? I mean include all taxes, gas, sales, local, real estate, payroll etc etc..

[Tom]

Those who favor a bigger Government, more welfare and ask "what can the Government do for me today" are the ones that I would catagorize as wishing for a Socialist State.  

I don't care if they work somewhere else or not. My concerns, needs and wants are based on Liberty and Freedom.  Governments, in general, tend to "take" not "give".  Someone who "wants more" and uses the Government as a tool "to take it from someone else",  has a Socialist mentality.  I hear them everyday.

[rebocardo]

The reason I like a VAT is because it equals everything out. Bill Gates and I would pay the same tax on our burgers at a fast food. One man, one burger, one vote.

When I buy a brand new truck, say 1978 Ford  for $1000 I would get taxed at the same rate he would if he bought one too. If he decided to buy a $100,000+ SUV then he gets taxed 100x more. If he wanted to buy a $500 Yugo he gets to pay 1/2 as much.

I think a flat percentage tax where everyone is equal is important. If it works out where it is too crushing on the poorest people, then there is always food stamps and vouchers.

[Stan]

Well Kedwards, the folks who are in the class envy business would like you to believe that I pay more of my income in tax than those in the highest bracket, but it just ain't so. I'm in the 10% bracket and generally have enough deductions to avoid about half the taxes I'd pay at that rate. If the top 3% of the taxpayers are paying half of all the tax revenue, I'd say they were paying more than their share. Meanwhile those who receive a refund on no taxes at all are getting something they don't deserve.

[Ron Wenrich]

If I'm not mistaken, the VAT is added every step of the way.  So, the more hands that a product goes through, the more VAT.  That doesn't bode well for forest products, where we have a lot of middle men.  

Stan, you're going to love that alternative minimum tax that was set up years ago for people who had too many deductions.  Seems the middle class has caught up to those levels and will be hit with those minimum taxes in the years ahead.  That's one of the ways the growing deficit will be met.  Tax rates drop, just not yours.

[Kedwards]

Stan, If you make 10 million a year(as an example) and you pay 15% federal tax on that money because it is earned income that is 1,500,000 dollars in tax. How many normal americans would it take to generate that kind of revenue? If you use 4500 as a federal tax norm than 333 Americans in the "average" tax bracket have to pay taxes in order to make up the same dollar volume. If it is earned income it should be taxed regardless of the amount. If the person that makes 10 million a year does "avoidance" and reduces the effective burden to say 10% than an additional 111 US citizens at the average income level have to make up the delat to generate the reduced tax burden. The top 3% pay the most taxes because the earn more money than 80% of the population by significant amounts. Why would say that paying a known  percentage of what you earned is paying more than your fair share? I think its paying your fair share period. BTW getting a refund is sign you overpaid and gave a free loan to the governement. This who pay no taxes are generally the elderly and make less than poverty level. Most people in this country have no retirement and live on SS only. I have known several elderly not related to me that live like this and we give them food because they don't have enough money to cover the total drug costs for medications and food electricity etc..Its just the decent thing to do.

[rebocardo]

In many countries it is only the end product that gets taxed at the consumer level. Of course yuo have little details like what to tax exports etc. The car gets taxed, not the steel that goes into the engine.

[Stan]

Ron, with a fixed income limited to a maximum of 3% adjustment annually, it'll be a little while before I run into the Alternative Minimum Tax. I did have to avoid it the last 4 or 5 years I worked though, turned down all overtime.  
Jedwards, I only got $36 back this year so I figure I'm payin' real close to the right amount.