$10,000 DNR Fine

[ElectricAl]

Yep, we almost got nailed $10,000 for "Open Burning" of slabs.


Apparently, Iowa Code 567 IAC 23.2  prohibits businesses from burning "solid waste"  if it does not originate on the property (trucked in).

Our slabs, edgings and sawdust are a manufacturing waste product. We cannot store the waste for more than 6 months either or it is a violation of "storing" solid waste. The sawdust cannot be spread on a farm field either.

One of our legal options is to landfill our waste that cannot be given away. Cost is $40 per ton for landfill fee and approximately $10 per ton trucking.  We make 1.5 to 2.5 tons per day. That works out to $75 to $125 per day to properly dispose of our waste products.

All the non Walnut sawdust is given to a horse farm. We did find someone to take the non Walnut bark and sawdust mix that falls on the floor. We have to deliver it 7 miles away. Some of the slabs and edge trimmings are wanted by a dog breeder with a huge outdoor wood burner. We are going to try to ship 30 bundles on a 48' lumber trailer. The breeder burns a bundle every day and a half to two days, but we make 2 to 4 bundles per day.  There is a 900 HP tub grinder available for $500 per hour with an 16 hour minimum. Have not found a market for the mulch because it contains bark.  If we give away the slabs, we'd have people coming in and out constantly wasting our time and making a mess.

The biggest problem out of the whole deal is the Walnut waste. No one wants Walnut anything. Firewood guys hate the slabs because of the volume of ash is higher.
Last year 70% of our sawing was Walnut.    There is a possibility we may have to stop sawing large orders of Walnut. That in turn would anger the logger we custom saw for and he may go elsewhere.

So you are saying to yourself....."SELF, how did Linda get into such a pickle with the DNR?"  

The DNR stopped by to see if we have an "Air Quality" permit for the sawdust blower and kiln.

Hey that's a new one on us.

We can blow the sawdust on the floor and scoop it up without a permit. But since we blow it outside the building and into a wagon we are regulated. This issue has not been settled yet. DNR thinks we need to quadruple our CFM rating on the dust blower. Somehow DNR thinks more air flow and pressure is going to make less dust being expelled form a wagon.

We have to be at 40% or less light blockage at the discharge point.

That should not be a problem to obtain, I'll just saw real slow with a dull blade.


So, long story long,
sawing is not as much fun as it use to be.

[CHARLIE]

DanG! I'm sorry to hear about all the problems the guvm'nt is causing you.  There is a Sawmill in Preston, MN (Preston Hardwoods) and they sell their slabs to homeowners for firewood. They bundle them up, band them together with metal tape, haul it to the homeowner's home and dump it.  The homeowner is responsible to unband it and cut it into firewood chunks with their chainsaw.

Would the DNR take sawdust to spread on trails?  Is their a company around that would take the sawdust to make particle board?  I know their are stoves that burn pellets made from sawdust. There gotta be some kind of machine that you can dump in the sawdust and it spits out the pellets. Maybe get one of those and hire a teenager to run it.
 

[Kevin_H.]

Well, That's kinda scary stuff...I wonder if it would make any difference if you blew the sawdust into a building instead of a wagon.

Around here the big mills just blow it into a big pile, I think they run it to the paper plant when things are slow

Can you buy a burn permit for the slabs?

man this bites, sorry for ya.

[Tom]

Pellet manufacture has been discussed at length on the "other" forum and it is an expensive venture.  There are environmental concerns there too.

The problem with the DNR using the sawdust is that they would charge you permit fees to allow you spread it on their trails.  The they may fine you for littering.  Government Bureaucrats have only one job and that is to keep a citizen form doing what he wants to do.  The citizen may be trying to do something good or something bad but they don't have to make any decisions, just stop him.

Knock, knock.

Who's there.

Your friendly government helper.  I saw that you were trying to start a business and wanted to know if I could help you.

Thought it was going to be a Knock Knock joke, didn't you.

[Haytrader]

Al,

What options does the guy with the walnut have? It would seem any other mills in Iowa would have the same restrictions as you guys. Would it be a possibility to load the slabs on the truck that brings the logs and let him deal with it?

[Stump Jumper]

 

[ElectricAl]

Tom,


7 years ago.........Ring Ring, It's the DNR asking if we want to be added to a state wide Sawmill directory put out by the DNR to help promote the sawmill industry.

Well, now the "Environmental" part of the DNR is using the book to find all the sawmills in our 99 counties.

We have 4 sawmills listed for our county. One is out of business, 2 are 30,000'/day mills, and us.

I asked the DNR dude about the competition not listed in the book. "What other sawmills" he said.  There are 5 other part time sawmills around.

Do I rat them out to level the playing field?

[ElectricAl]

Haytrader,

We talked about having the small customers take their slabs or charge them for disposal.  The big customers would be more difficult.  They might take their logs elsewhere.
Too many weekend WoodMizer guys.

None know how to saw for Grade, but the price per foot is the deciding factor for many log owners.

[arj]

Guess there aren`t many FREE AMERICANS left !!!!
       None in Connecticut          
                                             arj

[Percy]

Bureaucrats are like diapers, always on yer butt and usually full of ...you know..heh.Anyways, Id take Als advice and not register for any government programs as its info they are after so they can basicly TAX you  some more.  

[Tom]

That's one thing the Forestry Stewardship Program has going against it.  They want you to sign up so that "ALL" of the pertinant Government agencies can help you with your project.    That would be the DNR, the EPA, the Water management people, The Air people, the Game and fish commision, The Recreation Department, the tax department....

Funny how you can do so much growing up when you're already over the hill.  Government?  Help?  Ha!

[J_T]

man with a box foctory got turned in to EPA for open burning he put in a large boiler wood fired for his shop and house . Never stops burning 24-7 most time the smoke blowes toward the guy that turned him in We all know he can't use that much hot water but it is legal. Find a loop hole.I never cut logs I cut fire wood load it on my log thuck and carry it to my proseser. I may get locked up one day but I am going to earn it

[ElectricAl]

J_T,

We have 2 outdoor wood burners, and they can be real smudge pots at times. But here in Iowa if they are under a million BTU's / hr each they are unregulated.  Our's are under the million.

So our smudge pots are fine but it's $10,000 for a clean burning pile of slabs and edges

[Linda]

I realize the DNR was created to benefit the environment.  The thing that bothers me most is that the political lobbyists are the ones calling the shots.

For example: A clean burning wood fire, with almost no smoke is illegal, but it is okay to burn herbicide bags, plastics and other toxic products.  :-/

Less government is the best government.  

[J_T]

How can they say the waste didn't orignate on your place ?Those were perfect round wooden objects untill you made planks with bark on them. What are the regs on a bar bq pitt? Stacks of siding for log house"s Fence materal. I'll try anything once

[Linda]

J_T,

We don't have any trees on our property other than 600  2-3' tall spruce and 3 year old willows.  Otherwise, that might have worked.

[firtol88]

Looks unlikely that anyone around here will be campaigning for Flipper.    Nice to see, I wasn't looking forward to paying his 15%+ tax inceases.  


Anyway maybe start a gardening soil company, "boost the organic matter in your soil". Buy a chipper, mix that with piles of sawdust and if you feel like going this far add sand and soil... let it break down. If someone complains say it is future product which will require time to break down.

[ADfields]

What about a wood pellet maker and sell it all as pellet stove pellets As for the blower what if you make a loft room over your mill to blow into on the floor then auger it out from there  And the best plan of all sell your shop and move and DON'T list your new address with the DNR   It was just this kind of crap that got me fed up with the tow business in Arizona.   Good luck.
Andy

[Norm]

Sorry to hear of your troubles with the DNR. We learned the hard way to make sure nobody in the state government knows what we do. Because we're farmers we are able to do many of the things you can't but you can bet we don't tell anybody local what we do back on our dead end road. Always some SOB that wants to be big brother and turn you in for some bs stuff.

DNR is not well liked in these parts, the local guy is about as lazy and worthless as they get. I had someone running an illegal trapline on our place. Found a beaver they caught and it sat there for over the 24 hours allowed. I put it out of it's misery and found no tags on the traps. Called them up and nobody returned the call or did anything about it. I kept the traps.

[tawilson]

"Less government is the best government."
You got that right. That's why we do better as a country when the congress and presidency are controlled by different parties. They are too busy fighting and less laws get passed.

[redpowerd]

this sucks, more dogcatchers
here some locals are trying to pass a junkyard law to get everyone down to one unregisterd auto per acre. ill be pithed if i have to seperate and scatter all my jeeps around the farm.
what the heck is dnr?
department of national regulations?

[Sawyerfortyish]

I was always worried about the same things your going through. I built a sawdust shed on the backside of my mill and sell the dust to horse farms. As for slabs that was always a problem. I bought a mulch grinder with small screens and grind it . All my waste loose sawdust bark knots cutoffs even walnut sawdust goes in the grinder. Just mix it up good with a loader .I had a big slabwood problem selling it at 5.00 a pickup load didn't work it got rid of some but left a lot of junk now I grind it and get 12.00 a yard. I increased my production by 3000 ft a day by getting rid of the waste faster.  I sell all the waste that I make cut more lumber a day and have a cleaner safer place to work by putting in a mulch grinder.  At the rate the mulch is selling the grinder will pay for itself in 5 or 6 yrs. I'm on the outskirts of a metropolitan area so mulch sells it may be differant if your in farm country

[CHARLIE]

Redpowerd, DNR stands for Department of Natural Resources.  

[raycon]

Ask around if there is a nonprofit organization that takes firewood donations -- large scale.
They won't give you cash but might give you tax deduction vouchers/ receipts.

[redpowerd]

obviously, trees arent natural resources

[Patty]

Personally  I think the DNR was created for government land control. You don't own your land, they do, and they will not let you forget it.  

They have really gotten out of control here in Iowa. Way too much power! And that is very scarey and worrisome, indeed.

[ElectricAl]

Andy,

We are just about to the point of changing the business name and changing states

We did not tell you this yet, because we felt the DNR warning was more important, but our insurance runs out May 14th 2004.

United Fire wants to stop insuring sawmills. We had been with United Fire for 10 years and have never had a claim.
We spent almost 50 grand with them and they are dropping us :-/

So, no insurance and the DNR rippin' on us.........Hard to have a smile while sawing today.



Ray,

You think GoodWill would like 800,000 lbs of slabs per year?



Sawyer40,

What kind of mulch grinder did you install?

Do you debark first?

How many pounds of slabs and edge trimmings make a yard of mulch.

On your 5 year pay back, is that only on the machine, or did you figure maintenance and labor to grind and out load mulch?

We are 12 miles from a town of 125,000, and have a 1 ton dump truck.  We could deliver mulch if it comes to that.

[ADfields]

Yup I hear ya Al! :-/  Insurance is a hole set of troubles in it's self.  

The mulch could be vacuum bagged (or baled with an old baler and bagged) then market it to outfits like Walmart/Home depot once or twice a year I bet.
Andy

[oldsaw]

You could always move closer to me, that would be handy, or on the eastern side of Nebraska or Kansas so you are still in my territory...at least the traveled part.

Linda, you nailed it.  The government needs to fix broken things, not things they think aren't broken, and only if there is a reason to do so.  Besides, aren't those the same people who mismanage the forests out west so they burn 10 times what you will in a lifetime in 10 minutes?  Do as I say, not as I do?

Nope, we need more regulations, higher taxes, gutless vehicles that can't get out of their own way, let alone carry anything....Pretty spiffy Suburban Mr. Kerry, can you park that on your big fancy boat?  Sorry guys, if you are going to read a book by George Orwell, it isn't 1984....it's Animal Farm.  Read it if you haven't, or haven't for years, it cuts a bit close to this situation and politics of the past couple of decades.

Good luck guys, keep us posted.
I'll catch you next time I'm up that way.

[Sawyerfortyish]

ElectricAl  I bought a used Rotochopper I grind bark and all I don't debark. Rotochoppers slogan is perfect in one pass and it is. I don't weigh my wood so it's hard to put pound figures to it. But I can tell you for mulch the wetter the better. It will turn darker quicker and thats what you want.
 I can easily cut 10,000 ft per day and this machine keeps up no problem. In cutting that I'll make 35 to 40 yrds of mulch that will rot down to maybe 30yrds. As for getting rid of it the word is getting around. I'm under selling the local market by 6.00 a yard so landscapers are comming out of the woodwork They haul it away I just load . On my 5 year payback I figured the increased production  and less time to get rid of the slabs. The grinder runs inline with the mill at the same time.  It has a Cat diesel and sits outside the mill. I ran a vibrating conveyer inside. As I saw the slabs are thrown into the conveyer and the machine takes care of the rest. I didn't figure any cost of labor to grind because the machine pretty much does it by itself you have to move the slabs from the saw anyway. As for repairs on the machine I had to replace a 600.00 belt that was worn anyway and a bearing on the grinder shaft that was expensive. Other than that grease it and run it.

[ElectricAl]

Thought we would update our FF family.

No fines yet, but you never know.

We applied for and received a "Small Source Exemption" for our saw dust blower off the sawmill.

Our Outdoor wood burners are exempt from DNR regulation because they are under a million BTU's per hour.

The Onida 2 hp Cyclone in Linda's Wood Working Shop is also exempt because the exhaust air is discharged in the same room it came from through a .5 micron filter.

We are still trying to develop, implement and monitor our "Strom Water Run Off Plan".  A map with buildings, vegetation, equipment, short term waist storage, unloading, loading areas, etc. have to be finalized. We have the all important "DNR Spill Kit" for any type of petroleum product spill. And a list of authorized disposal centers ($150 -$250 per 55 gal. drum)  Also, a florescent bulb recycler is on our list. He's 100 miles away, so a 4 hour drive to recycle a bulb. That's cost effective.  


Slabs and edge trimmings have been piling up, and up, and up.

There are around 200 bundles or 250,000 lbs. waiting to be ground into mulch.
Then it will be a marketing game to get rid of it.

We have a Bandit Beast 3680 Horizontal Grinder here ready to grind.

www.banditchippers.com/model_grinder3680_intro.asp

[Furby]

DanG!
What did it cost to haul that thing in???  

[ElectricAl]

Truckin' is free

Grinding is $250/hr, $1500 min.

Going to load with our JD SkidSteer and Grapple bucket.

 

[beenthere]

Thanks for the update. I every so often have wondered how you two were making out with these ridiculous rules. But the little guy has a hard time fighting them, and then keeping a sawmill out of sight is tough to do to (especially in wide open Iowa).  Now if you were back in the hills somewhere, maybe....  Nah! Too many busybodies to hide from.

Good luck with your applications for exemptions.  

I drove by a mill in Wisconsin today up on Hwy 10 east of Mondovi, and they must have had 5 acres of strapped bundles of slabs stacked 3 high and side by each. Wonder if they have the grinder come in to process them too.  

[J_T]

Naw they probley go on vacation one day and that night have a big fire.

[dewwood]

Saw one of those beasts operate at the Paul Bunyan Show, you will be busy with your skid steer keeping slabs to it.  It will make quite a pile of mulch in a hurry.  One other note of interest, there was another manufacturer there with a smaller machine  designed to go in line and handle your slabs and trimmings.  The price was just under $100,000 a lot less than the half million plus for the beast but still a lot of coin.  It produced a nice uniform product that would be very saleable.  If you are interested I will get you the name and you can look them up.  They also do complete residue management thru recyling to produce electrical power to operate your facility, much more money I'm sure.

Good luck with your DNR problem.

[ElectricAl]

We got delayed on today's grind.

GrinderMan moved his Tub grinder to a new location this morning and set his trailer air brakes. Then released the fifthwheel lock and cranked the jack. Then all of a sudden his semi started to roll away.
The air lines and power cord were still attached, well not for long.
Several hundred in damages.  



Anyway we started at 2 and he wanted to stop at 4:30.  So a little test run, I guess :-/. Good thing for us I was able to stuff 1/2 our slab supply in that monster in the two and a half hours.
We developed this pile in just 5 months

Couple times I had to wait, but for the most part the timing worked.

There is a pile of firewood logs the grinderman is trying to broker tonight for us. He does not want to grind them. Whole logs are slow going.


Ever look in the mouth of a Beast?








Tossed a couple logs in to slow him down  

[Furby]

That's DanG cool!!!  
Are ya planning to bring this thing back every few months?

[Norm]

That's cool stuff Al, are the slabs mostly walnut? For the life of me I can't figure out why they will allow 500,000 gallons of honey wagon manure but not sawdust. Last time I checked sawdust was organic...oh yeah I forgot you were dealing with the dnr.

Did ya sneak a goat or two in there while Linda wasn't lookin?

[ElectricAl]

Norm,



What Goats, I did not see any Goats


Furby,

GrinderMan has a 6 hour minimum

So it will be in the spring before we have enough.


Dewwood,

We got some info from Shred-All

The 5600 is a slick machine. It's smaller than the grinder that was here. Small enough to be towed by a 1 ton truck.

Problem is I don't have $90,000

www.conceptproducts.com/Shred-All-5600.htm

[Bro. Noble]

So,  Al,

What are you going to do with all that walnut mulch?

I've heard that it's bad for horses and tomatoes.  Some plants won't grow under walnut trees,  but our grass pastures seem to thrive under them.  There are less weeds there though

We cut some walnuts out of a field that we wanted to plant to alfalfa. We ground the stumps and planted right over them.  After two years,  the alfalfa is about twice as tall where the trees were.

I would think that walnut mulch would be better than other mulch on certain crops where it would act as a natural weed control on some weeds.  I've mentioned Hammonds products in another thread.  They are one of if not the largest buyers of walnut meats in the world.  They probably have information on adding walnut hulls to the soil.

Mulch mixed with your neighbor's manure should be a real soil builder after it is blended and ages a while.

Must be some way to turn that stuff into an asset.

[FeltzE]

electric al.

Make sure you include your new mulch pile in your hazardous waste site plan, They consider the tannin in the wood waste a environmental hazard. I was just reading some federal paper on all that the other day. (found on the web searching)

Good luck

Eric

[Sawyerfortyish]

Thats true the guy I bought my first grinder off of had a runoff pond and the DEP tryed to fine him per gallon. So he started recyeling the runoff by pumping it back up on the mulch pile. DEP didn't like that but couldn't do anything about it. This would color the fresh ground stuff quicker.  He would sell truckloads of wet mulch and wherever the trucks dumped it then it was someone elses problem.

[ElectricAl]

Noble,

We just blended the Walnut in with everything else. We had completed most of our big walnut job before the DNR showed up. Walnut was only about 40% of the pile. Any way a Walnut slab or edging really contains a minimal amount of heart wood.

Alfalfa and Walnut are similar types of plants, they both produce a growth inhibitor that effect other plants. I read an article about a guy that took a freshly weaned puppy and kept it in a pen with fresh walnut sawdust for a year and the dog was stunted and only grew to 1/4 the actual size.


Eric,

Good idea on the site plan. We did pile it were we had a good stand of alfalfa, and any "run off" will spread out and soak in. We don't have any problem with puddling here.

Sawyerfourtyish,

Do you just blend your walnut in.

Do you use a 2" screen on your grinder?


We used a 2" screen and got 500-600 cuyds

[ElectricAl]

At about the 3 hour mark.


Here is a heavy grind


Done




Before

[Buzz-sawyer]

Al ,
a friend of mine debarks then converys all slabs to a smaller chipper, he has a deal with a plant 800 miles away, so they leave semi trailers for him to fill (2) trucks.
when they chip they also screen for fines, so they are putting out a product ready to use. He get $1500 a load for hardwood chips , I believe it goes into O.S.B ..
I think he send out a truck every couple of days, He cuts a WHOLE lot more than me!!

[Murf]

Up here a lot of the mills do one of two things to dispose of slabwood.

1) make a deal with some firewood people, they take the wood for free, but they have to take it all, then they just sell it cheap.

2) put a small ad in the paper, 'free firewood' usually they do it one particular day every month depending on volume, i.e., first Saturday of every month, or first & third Saturday, etc.

One of the flooring mills made a deal with the teenage son of an employee, he cuts slabs & rejects into 12-16" pieces after school on weeknights and spends Saturdays delivering really cheap firewood with the mills truck. They get rid of the wood for almsot nothing, and the kid is saving for college.

[Bro. Noble]

We have been fortunate to be able to sell our slabs to charcoal plants so far.

Because of the low value and distance to haul,  wh can hire a semi cheaper than we can haul on our strait truck.

Because of clean air restrictions,  charcoal plants keep closing down and our slabs have to be hauled farther.  Everyone knows what fuel prices have been doing.  Between those two factors,  we may have to start burning them.  The last load cost $120 to haul and brought $168.  The trucker said the next load would have to go to a kiln at a more distant location.  We're going to give it a try.  

There is quite a lot of hay hauled into this area from areas west of here that don't have a lot of trees.  I never could understand why they don't haul slabs back to sell for firewood.

[Larry]

Just curious.  When the chip mills were trying to come to the state one of the things we heard was
“residues from sawmilling and logging that are otherwise wasted could be utilized by the mill”.  Don’t know if that statement was or is true but there is a chip mill at Neosho.  Would they take your slabs Noble?

[Bro. Noble]

I think the chip mills require that the logs be peeled,  but I'm not sure.  

[SwampDonkey]

Up the road here at the cedar mill. All wood is shipped in from outside, since they've clearcut all their land way before they had a mill. But, anyway they sell or give any slabs away to whomever and the rest of the heap is burned. Keep in mind that they might........and this is stretch.......they might bring is 10 trailor loads a year to saw and its done in winter months. So its not high production.

And they are prolly about 150 miles from the nearest DOE inspector. I mean get real....there are thousands of acres of woods burned naturally in this province annually.

[SwampDonkey]

Bro Noble

I believe your right on the peeling of the bark from the logs. It doesn't make good pulp or OSB with bark.