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Author Topic: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees  (Read 1243 times)

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Offline 123maxbars

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Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
« on: January 03, 2013, 04:27:13 pm »
First, I am a part time sawmill/weekend operation.

I sale alot of black walnut to a customer who takes it and has it dried then ships it to wood working schools throught the country. He buys it right straight off the sawmill green, he pays me $3.25 a bf. I pay the loggers about $1.25 a bf for the logs. Some people sale it for alot more but this guy will buy as much as I saw and pays cash as soon as it comes off the mill.

I went today and looked at some walnut trees. These trees are on a flat piece of land with great road access. The owner of the land just wants to clear them out to build a cabin. Here are the specifics of the deal.

I will cut down the trees and bring my woodmizer to the site for milling. The land owner will use his tractor to stage the logs.

The trees are tall/straight and around 28in dbh, with some being larger. I estimated today around 3 to 4mbf feet of clear walnut.

With him helping it should take us about a week to cut them down and saw them up.

I have never made an offer on trees where I had to cut the trees down in addition to bucking them etc.
Looking for advice from any loggers or sawmills that have bid on trees in a situation like this. I thought about offering him 1k per mbf. Any advice is appreciated.






Offline Cedarman

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Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 05:02:27 pm »
123, there is a canker disease in walnuts that I believe is in the Knoxville are.  In any case somewhere in TN.  There are precautions that must be made before shipping walnut.  I don't have it at my fingertips.  Maybe someone else with the full scoop will chime in.
The beetle that carries the fungus is about the size of a pencil dot.  You cannot tell if a tree is newly infected.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

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Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 07:55:44 pm »
Hello 123,

Besides Cedarman's concerns, (I agree Cedarman, transport of green lumber is spreading many tree related pathogens, that did not get spread as easily as it does today with transcontinental and global shipping.)

I had a few quesitions about the job:

  • Are you doing this for a fee or percentage of lumber?
  • Will you charge by the board foot or by the hour?
  • Have you considered travel expenses, set up logistics, fuel, and machine fees, including blade lose?

I normally represent land/woodlot owners, and have annoyed a few sawyers on the FF, again I apologize, for my advice on only hire sawyers by the board foot.  Now with that said, I can speak about what I think you should do as a sawyer.  Considering the nature of the job, I would split it into a sectional contract.

Contract one is for logging, bucking the logs into their perspective bolt lengths, and staging them for your milling operation.  This job sounds like it is more Arborist type tree removal, than a standard logging job, and should be priced accordingly.

Second component of the contract is a little trickier without knowing some of the details.  I only work by the board foot, others choose to work by the hour.  In the case of nice black walnut, you could, (though the paycheck will be further off,) work for a percentage of the wood. Like a 70/30, 60/40 or 50/50 split, (your favor.) Nice black walnut can pay you more than if you worked by the hour or board foot. You will have to do the math and decide that one for yourself.

As you share more information, and consider advise from other FF members, I am confident you will come up with an excellent action plan for this job.

Regards,

jay


[/list]
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline NWP

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Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 10:04:52 pm »
.50/bd. ft on the stump and haul it to your place.  Even if you have to pay someone to haul it.  Once he sees the lumber you are sawing out of it he might want more money.
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1994 Duratech HD8, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 1990 Peterbilt 378 w/ Hood 7000 loader, 2001 Chevrolet, 2005 Chevrolet, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

Offline 123maxbars

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Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 10:11:38 pm »
    Hello 123,

    Besides Cedarman's concerns, (I agree Cedarman, transport of green lumber is spreading many tree related pathogens, that did not get spread as easily as it does today with transcontinental and global shipping.)

    I had a few quesitions about the job:

    • Are you doing this for a fee or percentage of lumber?
    • Will you charge by the board foot or by the hour?
    • Have you considered travel expenses, set up logistics, fuel, and machine fees, including blade lose?

    I normally represent land/woodlot owners, and have annoyed a few sawyers on the FF, again I apologize, for my advice on only hire sawyers by the board foot.  Now with that said, I can speak about what I think you should do as a sawyer.  Considering the nature of the job, I would split it into a sectional contract.

    Contract one is for logging, bucking the logs into their perspective bolt lengths, and staging them for your milling operation.  This job sounds like it is more Arborist type tree removal, than a standard logging job, and should be priced accordingly.

    Second component of the contract is a little trickier without knowing some of the details.  I only work by the board foot, others choose to work by the hour.  In the case of nice black walnut, you could, (though the paycheck will be further off,) work for a percentage of the wood. Like a 70/30, 60/40 or 50/50 split, (your favor.) Nice black walnut can pay you more than if you worked by the hour or board foot. You will have to do the math and decide that one for yourself.

    As you share more information, and consider advise from other FF members, I am confident you will come up with an excellent action plan for this job.

    Regards,

    jay


    [/list]

    Thanks for that reply to the post

    I have figured in travel expenses.
    The land owner does not want any of the lumber, he wants to sale me all the trees. Im just trying to figure out a good price to offer him, since I will be cutting down the trees instead of the norm of having them delivered to my sawmill.

    Offline WDH

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    Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
    « Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 11:10:56 pm »
    I would also be at about $.50/Bf on the Doyle scale on the stump.
    Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

    Offline Jay C. White Cloud

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    Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
    « Reply #6 on: January 03, 2013, 11:13:25 pm »
    Hi 123,

    If that is the case, then there is more to consider.

    What is your labor to drop the trees and the board footage they will yield you.

    Price comparison of moving the mill to the site or having the logs trucked to your location.  This may be less expensive than your time to move you mill, set up, mill, off load/stack lumber, then re-stack onto transport, transport lumber, your mill and equipment back to your base location, off load lumber, re-stack and sticker for drying.  Each time you touch a piece of lumber before sale you loose money.

    Scan the net for current prices of black walnut nationally and average that into your local price.  Call Tennessee's state forestry office or the equivilent on current lumber prices. These links may help.

    http://www.state.tn.us/agriculture/publications/forestry/tfbp.pdf
    http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publications/index.shtml
    http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hva/logreports.htm
    http://www.globalwood.org/market/market_prices_america.htm#tn

    Good luck, let us know how it goes or if you have other questions.  I'm sure you will get more advise here on the FF on items I have forgotten to consider.

    Regards,

    Jay
    "To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

    "When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

    Offline WDH

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    Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
    « Reply #7 on: January 03, 2013, 11:17:57 pm »
    Local markets vary a good bit.  In general, hardwood in the South brings a lot less on the stump than in the North.  At least here, there is no market for walnut.  It just gets mixed in with the other logs.  I offer the top end of the highest valued hardwood logs in the local market.  That is fair.  Where there is an established walnut market, like in the Mid-West, the price will likely be higher.  But, you should not have to pay a comparable price in TN if there is no separate commercial market for walnut.
    Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

    Offline BBTom

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    Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
    « Reply #8 on: January 03, 2013, 11:19:59 pm »
    123maxbars, I think you have the right idea.  Rather than overthinking the job, figure that felling and logging is worth $0.25/ bdft.  You pay $1.25 now for walnut, subtract the $0.25 and pay him the $1.00.  He gets a good enough price, you get a good deal, everyone is happy and makes some money.  That is how you make good customers and a growing business.
    2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

    Offline thenorthman

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    Re: Advice needed/sawmill bidding on some trees
    « Reply #9 on: January 03, 2013, 11:25:33 pm »
    the math may be a little funky on this but here goes
     1: you sell for $3,250. per 1k  bf
     2: you usually buy for $1,250
     3: which means you gross about $2k per 1k bf
     4: you plan on paying him $1000 per 1k mbf
     5: you will gross $2,250

    Sound like you both will be making good money, him a little more than you but not so bad, and he will be doing a whole lot better than having the middle man (logger) take his cut, so you could knock down his pay a little bit and everyone would still be happy in theory anyways
    well that didn't work