Archive




TimberKing Sawmills



Please visit this sponsor

The Largest Inventory of Used Chainsaw Parts in the World

Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools


Forest Products Industry Insurance

Norwood Industries Inc.

Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Wood Processing equpment. Splitters, Processors, Conveyors

Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL

Woodland Sawmills

Margeson Insurance

Peterson Swingmills

Pacforest Supply Company

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.  (Read 9317 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 17948
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2012, 07:43:56 pm »
I'm just like Shotgun. I had my place logged,I walked the lots this logger cut I think for 20 years. Always very critical as I always am. I needed a contractor to do the digging for the house. I might of paid a little more but saw some other places and homes that the "cheaper" guys had done.  ::) Not impressed. I always tell people when you get a logger if he says I can be there in a month tell him not to bother. I have to wait a year for my logger. He is very busy. We have our dogs groomed. Usually it's a 2 week wait. Which is fine. She is busy because people like the job she does. I'm a hard man and I don't want a bad job done,no matter what I'm having done. I always check past jobs. I looked for a sawmill and I would see one on someone land and I would stop and talk to them, I did my OWB the same way.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline terry f

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2012, 01:46:32 pm »
     Can I ask, why any landowner would sell into this market.

Offline Jeff

  • Lead Administrator and Founder
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39152
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Harrison MI
  • Gender: Male
  • 1920's Sawmill Hand
    • THEE Forestry Forum
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2012, 02:39:18 pm »
That's a pretty easy question.  Haven't you ever been broke?
I don't need to know everything, I just need to know where to find it, when I need it - Albert Einstein
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Bottle Washer.

Offline terry f

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2012, 03:22:47 pm »
   Even broke, it would be tough watching a load of logs, that take a lifetime to grow, leave your place, knowing there might be a hundred dollar bill on the other end. To answer your question, I've been broker than most.

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 17948
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2012, 03:26:47 pm »
It would be even tougher to watch an estate auction on my land.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline ga jones

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • Age: 38
  • Location: harveyville pa
  • Gender: Male
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2012, 03:45:38 pm »
First I am a logger. second i never said the people here dont trust loggers. It was meant a generlization of public trust and belief.third I cant see where the market is that bad. I just did a job cut 38 trees and made the land owner 5000.00 I dont think thats to bad.If the market was that bad knowone would be selling there timber.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars

Offline grassfed

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brownington VT (10mi.S QUE.)
  • Gender: Male
    • Kingdom Hill Farm
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2012, 04:15:14 pm »
Quote
Can I ask, why any landowner would sell into this market.
Things can always get worse,trees rot, released crop trees can then flourish. This is why I cut what needs to be cut every year; as long as I am healthy and conditions permit.  I should say that I don't cut everything that could be cut every year. I have +-300 acres of my farm that are managed forest stands. I cut approx 20- 30 acres a year as part of an overall uneven age stand management plan. I try to work around markets as much as makes sense and each stand is different in terms of maturity. 
Mike

Offline terry f

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2012, 04:25:58 pm »
    Agreed thecfarm.  Ga jones, around here its 265 for white fir, 280-310 larch and doug fir. What does it cost to put the logs to the mill, 40 miles away, average ground, three to four thousand feet on a truck? I hear 250-260, so that doesn't leave much.

Offline ga jones

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • Age: 38
  • Location: harveyville pa
  • Gender: Male
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2012, 10:00:35 pm »
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars

Offline John Mc

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Monkton, Vermont
  • Gender: Male
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2012, 10:04:50 pm »
There are good loggers, and there are bad/dishonest loggers.  There are good foresters, and there are bad/dishonest foresters.  There are good plumbers, and there are bad/dishonest plumbers.  My bet is that the percentage of scumballs in just about any profession is about the same.

If the OP was experienced in this sort of thing, able to ask the right questions and do thorough reference checks, he just might be able to find himself a good logger and deal with him directly successfully.  My impression is that he is not in a position to be able to do this, so going it alone is a gamble.  He may find a good logger, but he doesn't really have the information & experience to judge whether who he has found is good or not.

Of course, he may also have the same problem knowing when he's found a good forester...
Small time fire-wooder in a neighborhood cooperative.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 21482
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin
  • Gender: Male
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2012, 10:16:30 pm »
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.

ga jones
What are you calling sapwood? Is it a grouping of species?
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Okrafarmer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5828
  • Age: 36
  • Location: upcountry SC-- Sweetgum capital of the world!
  • Gender: Male
  • Away down south in the land of sweetgums. . . .
    • Genesis Hardwood Lumber
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2012, 12:14:26 am »
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.

By sapwood, do you mean softwood, or conifers? This is the first time I've heard them referred to this way, I think.

Secondly, it sounds like your market is way better than ours. I can't sell white pine for more than $200/1000, yellow pine for more than $180/1000, hemlock would be considered pallet regardless of quality, red maple (our primary kind here) is $225, tulip poplar is $250, red and white oak, and ash, are $300, and everything else except maybe cedar and walnut, is considered pallet regardless of condition, and brings $175 / thousand, even cherry. So if we had your prices, we could maybe make a living logging around here. Darn tootin. As it is, I think most loggers here are having to decide between buying food, or buying chewing tobacco.  ;D
No matter how conventional wisdom may fly in the face of radical thought, it's still the most popular type.

"By pith and power, til my last hour, I'll mak this declaration-- we are bought and sold for English gold-- such a parcel o' rogues in the nation." --Robert Burns

Genesis Hardwood Lumber

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 32919
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2012, 05:31:55 am »
I think he means white woods. However he is only going on local experience. Hard maple and yellow birch logs and veneer are worth a lot more than what he's been getting. With the marketing boards here helping woodlot owners I've seen TT loads of veneer maple get a landowner $3000 or $4000 a load and more if he's the logger. Now the market is very soft right now and I don't know if you could move veneer hardwoods to be honest and log prices like he is quoting is what we get from low quality red maple logs, basically pulp price for ties. Some one is making money somewhere in the chain because most all our products go to the US. ;)

All the commercial mills sawing around the clock and year round up here saw softwoods. Hardwood mills are run like a regular 40 hr day job and not in winter and a trickle compared to softwood sawing. Our forest is 60 % hardwood.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11343
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2012, 06:10:50 am »
When selling by the truckload or by portions, you put your faith in the logger being honest, and the best judge in how to buck logs.  You also think his marketing skills are very good.  That may be true, but its the risk you take. 

Lump sum sales take that risk off the landowner and put it on the logger.  In a bidding situation, the logger or mill with the best marketing, logging and bucking skills will buy the timber for the highest price.  Paid in advance, and there is no problem with honesty.  Risk is limited. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Okrafarmer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5828
  • Age: 36
  • Location: upcountry SC-- Sweetgum capital of the world!
  • Gender: Male
  • Away down south in the land of sweetgums. . . .
    • Genesis Hardwood Lumber
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2012, 09:46:52 am »
I'm still jealous of those prices. Trying to find a veneer buyer around here is kind of like looking for live dinosaurs.
No matter how conventional wisdom may fly in the face of radical thought, it's still the most popular type.

"By pith and power, til my last hour, I'll mak this declaration-- we are bought and sold for English gold-- such a parcel o' rogues in the nation." --Robert Burns

Genesis Hardwood Lumber

Offline thenorthman

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
  • Location: Western Warshington...
  • Now we're logging
tamatoe, tomato
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2012, 09:47:45 am »
That being said, If the deal is to go percentages, then its in the loggers best interest to buck and market to the best of his ability.  The better a load is at the scale house the better he gets paid.  There are pro's and con's to both methods, the one that bothers me is the guy's that say they will buy your wood outright, no forester involved, so the landowner has no clue as to whats really going on.  If the logger is making the purchase price with no other competition, then he can bid as low as he feels he can get away with' and sell for as high as possible.  The chance for crookedness is huge
well that didn't work

Offline craigc

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
  • Location: Central Illinois
  • Gender: Male
Re: tamatoe, tomato
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2012, 07:07:47 pm »

, the one that bothers me is the guy's that say they will buy your wood outright, no forester involved, so the landowner has no clue as to whats really going on.  If the logger is making the purchase price with no other competition, then he can bid as low as he feels he can get away with' and sell for as high as possible.  The chance for crookedness is huge
That is a huge gross generalization you are making there.  I prefer to buy my timber with just the landowner and myself being involved.  Getting a chance to walk with the landowner and talk about what he wants done to his property is very important to me.  I mark every tree that will be harvest, break down species and footage.  They then can run numbers themselves off the Illinois DNR website for timber prices.  In fact I encourage it we are always on the high end if not more.  Your statement that we can the see how cheap we can get it is how not to buy timber.  Treat people fair and honest.  I have walked many of woods with State Forester marking timber together we bounce ideas and experiences off each other,  makes us both better.  Most private foresters in my state give me the impression they are in it for the check and that is all.  Just finished a private forester sale, He never showed up once!  I have cut many private forester sales can count the number of jobs they showed up on, on one hand.  So who is giving the landowner more attention. The guy who buys it out right with fair money and is there every day talking with the landowner asking him if he sees anything we need to change or do.  Or someone who has invested a can of paint and is never there watching he harvest?  Don't lump us all together is all I ask.
If politicians are so smart,  Why do they do such dumb things?

Offline ga jones

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • Age: 38
  • Location: harveyville pa
  • Gender: Male
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2012, 07:48:47 pm »
by sap wood i mean pine hemlock spruce. soft wood is aspen cucumber . my hardwoods are oaks maple cherry walnut hickory birch poplar bass. The veneer market on red oak is 1300 mbf cherry is a little higher I usualy have 3 or 4 veneers a load.I cut small tracts so Im not moving whole loads of veneer. MIxed loads from veneer to grade 1. average 500 mbf.across the board.My log buyer buys veneer through grade 1.The majority of my loads are prime to grade 1 with a few veneers.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars

Offline Jeff

  • Lead Administrator and Founder
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39152
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Harrison MI
  • Gender: Male
  • 1920's Sawmill Hand
    • THEE Forestry Forum
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2012, 08:02:51 pm »
That is some odd local terminology there.  Technically sapwood is the part of living wood where sap flows, as different from the heartwood, where it doesn't.  And Aspen, Aspen is a hardwood. Cucumber, up here it is a vegetable. We don't have it. The pines Hemlock and the Spruces are all softwoods.
I don't need to know everything, I just need to know where to find it, when I need it - Albert Einstein
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Bottle Washer.

Offline ga jones

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
  • Age: 38
  • Location: harveyville pa
  • Gender: Male
Re: So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2012, 08:10:10 pm »
If sticky sap oozes out of the logs its sap wood.aspen is useless for anything but pallets and pulp. we cant even sell it to firewood buyers. It has to be seperated for the mills we cant mix it with other woods.20 bucks a ton
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars