Author Topic: Kiln cart and track for loading? (Read 4244 times)

WoodChucker · « **on:** September 11, 2003, 04:41:35 am »

I'm getting ready to build a small (Nyle L50)(17'X10'8') dehumidification kiln and would like to get as much info as I could about making a cart and track system for loading the lumber into the kiln. So If anyone could answer these questions, I sure would appreciate it:

1. Is a wood floor ok to use or should it be cement? I don't think the end cost would be that much different, so I could go either way.

2. Where do you buy a track system, or is it made of wood? I've only heard about them, never seen one.

3.Any links with pics or how to build one would sure help.

4. Should the chamber walls be made from 4" or 6" lumber?

5. I'm having a hard time understanding how the tracks and cart come out of the kiln and still have a good seal at the door.

Sorry for all the questions but this is a new area for me and I'm a little lost. Thanks!

R.T.

BBTom · « **Reply #1 on:** September 11, 2003, 05:19:42 am »

Hi Woodchucker,

The track is just 1" angle iron laid with the point up. At the door you make a short section that you can pick up and set aside. Cart wheels are available from nyle. I have all the information on my website at >>>http://maplewood-farm.com/kiln.htm<<< . Let me know if I can be of any help.

Tom

Joe_Beaulieu · « **Reply #2 on:** September 11, 2003, 05:50:07 am »

Woodchucker,

We include plans for the kiln and the kiln cart with the purchase of a unit.

BBTom,

Nice website. The pics of the construction process are great.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2003, 07:46:55 am »

Hi Joe, yeah I seen the drawings in the manual, but its not real clear on how it goes through the door. If the building is 17' long, will it need two section that long that connect together at the door, one to go outside the door for loading? And are the tracks just laying on top of the floor, or do they need to be set in channels within (below) the floor? Thanks for your help!

BBTom, hey great web site you have there! It was a big help being able to see your setup. I guess I'm a little slow when it comes to this stuff, I still don't get how the tracks connect together at the door? You said the track outside gets set aside, but does it physically connect to the tracks inside or does it just butt up to it for loading? And does it need to be on cement pads or is just laying on the ground outside? Thanks and sorry for all the stupid questions!

R.T.

BBTom · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2003, 07:36:58 pm »

Woodchucker,
Sorry, I guess my explaination wasn't clear. I have a 4 foot section of track that is put in place between the track inside the kiln, and the track outside the kiln, whenever I need to roll the cart back and forth. The tracks inside and outside the kiln have a 3" piece of 3/8 rod welded into the angle so that half of it sticks out. The short section of track sits on the rods for alignment. I have not yet fastened my track down, probably never will. It doesn't seem to go anywhere with 2000 Bd ft of lumber on it.

I have my track laying on some treated lumber outside, waiting for the ground to finish settling, when I will pour some concrete for it to sit on. It was fresh fill and I didn't want to have to pour more than once. I have a tendency to be lazy that way.

Hope that helps
Tom

WoodChucker · « **Reply #5 on:** September 12, 2003, 02:10:10 am »

Tom, don't be sorry, its me, I've always had a hard time understanding written directions. But a picture is worth a thousand words and your drawing really helped a lot. So if you could bare with me for just a few more questions, I sure would appreciate it.

Would it be a good idea to have a cement floor? And then have a cement pad say, 5 feet wide and 18 feet long coming out the door for the track? Maybe have it so the pad and the kiln floor is one unit? Or do you think that might be a problem with rain getting under the door?

Just curios, it looks like your floor is built right on top of the ground, is that right? If so, do have any problem with ground water getting in and are mice ever a problem? Or maye I just don't see what you really did. Anyway, thanks again for all your help and your time!

Joe_Beaulieu, your not off the hook yet either, I still have a couple of questions for you also.

Is the one intake vent and one exhaust vent that comes with your system enough, or would it be better to have more? I'd rather put them in now and be safe if you think its needed?

Also, I know you sell the V-rollers but do you also sell the tracks? And is there anything else I will need to buy for the this system, other then a moister meter?

Thanks and you will be hearing from me either this week or the next to place my order. Thanks for taking the time with me on the phone last week and putting up with me here on the forum.

R.T.

Joe_Beaulieu · « **Reply #6 on:** September 12, 2003, 06:05:23 am »

The tracks would have a connection at the door similar to what BBTom has shown above, with a section of rail that can be removed for opening and closing the door(s). Typically the rails are attached to the floor. Outside of the kiln the rails could be set on a concrete slab or even on the ground. I have also seen them attached to timbers (placed on the ground) to elevate them to the level of the floor of a shipping container. The nice thing about this is that they can be easily moved for snow removal with minor risk of damage.

The vents supplied with the unit are adequate for the size of the unit.

We don't usually sell the tracks. I could fabricate them for you but the shipping would hurt. They are made from 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/4" steel angle and 1/4" x 4" flat bar. Both items should be readily available from a local fabrication shop.

With the L50 the only thing you will need is a moisture meter.

BBTom · « **Reply #7 on:** September 12, 2003, 06:05:28 am »

Woodchucker,
In essence my floor does sit directly on the ground, but my floor consists of 3 layers of 2" foam board, 1 layer of heavy plastic, 1 layer of 1" lumber, 1 layer of aluminum. Directly under the track I put (embedded into the ground) treated 2x12's and fabricated 4 x 6 beams to support the weight. The lumber layer also helps by spreading the weight out over the entire floor. I didn't like the idea of concrete floor, because of condensation, thermal conductivity and thermal flywheel effect. Why heat up that much mass that you don't need to

My thinking about the moisure under the floor was that the heat in the kiln would dissapate any moisture. Now, I am not so sure, I have noticed that snow will sit on the kiln for days while the kiln is at 150 degrees, long after it has melted from the rest of the structure. In other words, the insulation works well.

I have not had any problems, but do not know what things are like under the floor. Time will tell. As far as the mice, their dried up little bodies get swept out between loads.

Percy · « **Reply #8 on:** September 12, 2003, 08:38:26 am »

Quote

Woodchucker, as far as the mice, their dried up little bodies get swept out between loads.

Hahahahahahaha

:Dhahahahahaha

:Dhahahahahah

WoodChucker · « **Reply #9 on:** September 12, 2003, 03:19:34 pm »

Ok thanks Joe, between you and Tom I'm getting a real education on kiln construction, I'm starting to think I just might be able to pull this off.

I finally got a chance to sit down and read a little bit of the manual I got from you. Guess I wouldn't have had so many stupid questions if I had done that first, hey?

But it was a lot more fun this way (just say yeah)

.

I noticed that the plans for the L50 don't have an access door, but the L200 does, why is that, Is it not needed for the L50?

Thanks again for all your help, it sure is nice having you guys around to answer questions. I probably wouldn't have even tried this if it wasn't for the help I get here on the forum. No place like home!

Tom, your drawings are so helpful, there as good as real pictures and it sure makes it a lot easier to understand. Thanks for taking the time to do that, I really do appreciate it, you have been a great help!

Percy, yeah I guess Tom doesn't know that them kiln dried mice are better then road kill, hey?

Joe_Beaulieu · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2003, 09:15:02 am »

Sheet 3 of 13 shows a baffle ascross the top of the pile that the top of the L50 sticks through. It would block an access door as shown for the L200, but, you could always put it on the other side of the pile.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2003, 09:04:34 pm »

Ok thanks Joe, if it's not needed then I won't bother with it, I'll just stick to the plan.

Hey Tom,

Once you have that cart loaded how do you push it into the kiln? By hand, or do you have a winch connected to it? Also, what keeps it from banging into the wall, some sort of stop at the end of the track?

R.T.

BBTom · « **Reply #12 on:** September 14, 2003, 05:23:14 am »

It would be a good idea to put a stop on the end of the tradk, just never got around to it. The wall stops it now, and shows marks from it too. I had planned to put stops on, but just never got it done. I push it most of the way in with a 4-wheeler or tractor, then finish by hand. For a stop, I will just add a short piece of angle on top of the track. Still have to be careful, unless you don't let any one piece of lumber stick out past the cart. The way mine fits, I have to make sure nothig sticks out much from either end, or I cannot get in to get samples.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #13 on:** September 14, 2003, 03:44:52 pm »

Ok thanks Tom, how many times while drying a load of lumber do you have to go into the kiln to get samples? And how many samples do you need to have and where do you locate them in your stack? Are you getting sick of me yet?

R.T.

BBTom · « **Reply #14 on:** September 14, 2003, 06:47:48 pm »

Woodchucker,

Just guessing from the read rate of this thread, but I think others may be getting some ideas here too, so I am happy to spread what little knowledge I have.

I cut 4 samples for each load (approx 2000bdft). I weigh my samples every morning. I know that many guys try to do it many ways with meters etc, But keep in mind that the lumber in a kiln is above the reading range of a moisture meter half of the time it is in there, and that half is when most of the defect occurs. I did spend the money to take a drying class given by Professor Gene Wengert. I feel it was money well spent. I may have been able to learn half of it on my own, but I would have been a very old man by that time. The other half I would never have learned, and would have to guess about what was happening in the kiln and why.

Back to samples, buy a scale and a convection toaster oven. I found the Myweigh scale on ebay for about $90. Nyle has a more popular brand for just a little bit more. The scale goes to 2600g. I cut my samples 14" long, then cut 1" from each end to oven dry, that gives me the average moisture of that sample. just calculations from there. I imagine there are writeups on sample techniques somewhere online. I know there is a writeup at the "other" forum.

I reread this and it sounds like I am rambling, sorry.

1. every day
2. 4 samples
3 randomly, trying to get a good cross section of what I am drying. Wetest, hard to dry, etc.
4. never get tired of answering questions. IF I have the answer.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #15 on:** September 15, 2003, 06:38:27 am »

BBTom, thanks for all the info. I'll have to find out about when and where that class is, I'd be interested in going.

So after you have been doing this for a while, don't you ever get to a point where you pretty much know the right settings and no longer have to take samples? Or is it just better to be safe then sorry?

R.T.

BBTom · « **Reply #16 on:** September 15, 2003, 07:18:02 am »

I think I will take that 10 minutes and weigh the samples every day. Every load dries differently. For Example, if you are drying Oak, the maximum moisture removal in any one day is about 3.5%. If you take more moisture out than that, you probably have created checks in that load of lumber. Thinking about that..... 2000bdft @ 2.00/bdft = $4000 value. Do I want to gamble?? nope Besides, I get to look over the lumber every day, and make sure there are no problems that the instruments are not telling you about.
There are several people with kilns in this area that take all the shortcuts. I am gradually building up my business by doing it right. It always pays in the end.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #17 on:** September 16, 2003, 12:58:28 am »

I see what ya mean, yeah why take a chance with it.

Guess what? I have another question for you, are you like, shocked?

And no, that wasn't the question.

.

Just wanted to know how you have your baffles constructed and what there made of? Do you think making them out of 1.5" rigid foam would be a good idea? I was just thinking it would be a little easier to handle. I know they would have to be setup so the fans wouldn't blow them over, but that shouldn't be to hard to figure out. Thanks!

R.T.

BBTom · « **Reply #18 on:** September 16, 2003, 05:43:34 am »

Woodchecker,

Another Question ??

Keep em coming, you will know everything I think I know before long.

I think that foamboard would work just fine, as long as your top temperature doesn't exeed 160. I made high limit 150 for safety sake. Over 160 degrees and styrofoam foamboard starts to expand and lose its shape. If you are spending the big bucks for Polyisocyanurate then you can go right on up to 200 degrees. I couldn't afford it, so I keep my temp down. I am probably running close to the top as far as my heat transfer would go. 150 degrees in the kiln out of 180 degree water.

The baffles I have hanging from the fan wall are a thin foamboard with skin on both sides. The skin gives them the strength to lay horizonally without too much bow. Make some way to hold them up while loading and unloading. I ran strings thru screw eyes that I can pull them up with.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #19 on:** September 16, 2003, 03:26:35 pm »

Ok thanks again Tom, is the pink stuff (Polyisocyanates?) That's what I was planning on using. Or is that the stuff that has the foil face on it? BTW, I'm really not as stupid as I sound.

It's just that I've never done any of this kind stuff before and after seeing the cost of materials for this little project, I want to make as few mistakes as possible. Now that's not to say that I'm the brightest person in the world either.

To anyone that's interested: Last week I went to Home Depot and bought 5 sheets of 1/2" plywood for another project I'm working on and it cost $13.95 a sheet. Today I went back and got two more sheets of the same stuff and it had gone up 5 bucks a sheet, ($18.95).

R.T.

Minnesota_boy · « **Reply #20 on:** September 16, 2003, 03:37:39 pm »

The pink foam board is high density polystyrene. The polyisocyanurates is yellow or browinish and has foil attached. The polystyrene will begin to break down at too low of temperature for what you want.

BBTom · « **Reply #21 on:** September 16, 2003, 03:41:27 pm »

The price of plywood has everything to do with a hurricane heading towards the Carolinas.

The pink stuff is a form of polystyrene. Polyisocyanurate has about 7 R-factor. The Polystyrene has about 5. keep the temp under 160 if you are going to use polystyrene.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #22 on:** September 16, 2003, 06:25:05 pm »

Minnesota_boy, BBTom, hey thanks guys!

I assume the stuff I use in the walls can be the polystyrene because it will be protected by a layer of plywood, would that be right? Come on, let me get this one!

R.T.

BBTom · « **Reply #23 on:** September 17, 2003, 05:06:52 am »

Woodchucker,
The foam expert at Owens Corning said that as long as the foam temp does not go over 160 degrees, it should be fine.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #24 on:** September 17, 2003, 07:46:03 am »

Well I think you deserve a break! I don't seem to be able to stump you anyway,

So I'm gonna get out of your hair for a while and let you get back to normal. But i might be back so don't get used to it.

.

Thanks so much for all your help, I truly appreciate it.

R.T.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #25 on:** September 17, 2003, 10:47:40 am »

R.T.
Isn't it amazing what the approach of a hurricane can do to the price of a sheet of plywood!
Phil L.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #26 on:** September 17, 2003, 01:33:42 pm »

Yep, and you can bet if that thing were to run out of steam and never come on land, that the price of lumber wouldn't come back down!

R.T.

Joe_Beaulieu · « **Reply #27 on:** September 18, 2003, 06:05:11 am »

R.T.

If you are still going to install an L50 in the kiln than temperature won't be a major issue. The max. operating temperature is 120 degrees F. We recommend the use of polyisocyanurate board because it is a better insulator. You should have an R-value of 30 in your walls and ceiling. Building plans come with the unit.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #28 on:** September 18, 2003, 08:02:20 am »

Joe_Beaulieu, I guess what I'm concerned about is when I need to set the pitch in pine and have to have the heat up to around 160deg, it's only for a short period of time and wouldn't even happen that often because I don't do a lot of pine.

I know your plans call for 2x4 construction, but would it be better to build it using 2x6" I don't want to over kill, but if it would keep the operating cost down then I think it would be worth it. What do ya think?

Did you guys happen to get any of the L50's in stock or will you still need to order it? Thanks!

R.T.

Joe_Beaulieu · « **Reply #29 on:** September 19, 2003, 05:58:27 am »

You can set the pitch in pine w/an L50. It will just take a while to bring the kiln up to temp due to the small heater.

The L50's are usually built to order. We just happen to have one in stock at the moment.

WoodChucker · « **Reply #30 on:** September 19, 2003, 01:12:48 pm »

Joe_Beaulieu, you might have misunderstood my question or maybe I just said it wrong. I know you can get the heat up to that temperature, but would the polystyrene type insulation be damaged by the high temperatures if it was being used in the walls behind plywood?

Thanks for the info on the L50 you have in stock, if it's a new one I'll take it, just put my name on it and I'll give you a call, ok?

R.T.

News:

Author Topic: Kiln cart and track for loading? (Read 4244 times)