The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills




Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Forest Products Industry Insurance


Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades


Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed  (Read 5086 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 123maxbars

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Kingsport, TN
  • Gender: Male
    • My Business Page
Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« on: July 26, 2012, 11:14:19 pm »
Short Bio/ Run a LT35 part time, sale alot of lumber and buy from local loggers.

I sale alot of ERC, I get 1$a bf for it green, and can't keep it on hand. It goes as fast as I can saw it.

I buy it from a local logger for .36cents a BF on the doyle scale. This guy doesnt use the cedar scale and I don't complain!

Across the valley from me a few miles away a friend of mine owns around 100 acres of unclear land. It was logged about 15 years ago of the hard woods only. It is level land with very good roads cut all through it. He called me a few weeks ago and said he had some good cedar on the land. I went today and walked it (yes all 100 acres, took a few hours). There are some very good cedars on his property that would be great saw logs. My logger I buy cedar from went with me and estimated around 30 loads of cedar saw logs (to him a load of cedar is a standard dumptruck bed load of eight foot logs. His load usually come out to about 550 board feet. Anyways I have the equipment on hand to harvest this cedar since it is easy to get to and on level ground.  I talked with my logger and he said when he logs cedar he gives the property owner %15 of the total sales from all the cedar sold at the mill.

I havent talked with the property owner yet, but plan on doing so tomorrow. I have never bought standing timber before and was looking for advice. Is is better to make offer on all the cedar trees/give him a percentage of them as if I was going to sale them to a mill eventhough I will be taking them straight to my mill? Just seeing what the best route could be. If the estimate is right at 30 loads then that is around 15000 board feet of ERC at $1.00 a board foot. Would be a great profit if I can get them at a good price that is cheaper than buying from the loggers. Thanks for any help.

Offline shortlogger

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Western Arkansas
  • Gender: Male
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 11:32:57 pm »
When I buy cedar timber I usually pay the landowner between 1/4 to 1/3 of of what it brings delivers to the mill or about 25 or 30 a cord for sawlogs
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

Offline Okrafarmer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6417
  • Age: 39
  • Location: upcountry SC-- Sweetgum capital of the world!
  • Gender: Male
  • Avast! Here appeareth some sweetgummery about....
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 11:48:10 pm »
"I sale alot of ERC, I get 1$a bf for it green, and can't keep it on hand. It goes as fast as I can saw it."

In that case, you need to consider raising your price. I sell ERC for $2/bf green and $3/bf dry. You should raise your price until you start feeling a little resistance on the buyers' end. I suggest raising it in small increments over time-- like go up to $1.25 and see if anybody flinches. If they do, you say, "well, I'll tell you what, you've been a good customer, I'll let you buy from me at $1.15." If they don't flinch, you run that price for a while, and as long as there is still no resistance, bump it up another .25 after a few months.
No matter how conventional wisdom may fly in the face of radical thought, it's still the most popular type.

Turbosawmill 8" cut GX390 Warrior Sawmill, 13hp Honda
MS290 Stihl

Genesis Hardwood Lumber

Offline Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11897
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 01:48:47 am »
Rather than work on a percentage, work back from the log value, at the mill

If the land owner harvested it and delivered it to you, you would pay ~40c bd/ft right?

So the standing trees are worth that, minus the cost of harvesting and transport. If it was 30c bd/ft to log and truck the logs, then the standing trees are worth are worth 10c bd/ft right? If they are close and easy to harvest, and only cost 20c to deliver to the mill, then they are worth 20c standing?

Working this way work in all the variables. More difficult terrain, logging costs go up. More distance to truck, cost go up, Value of the trees go down.

If the logs were more valuable, say $1 bd/ft at the mill, then same deal, you deduct the 30c harvest cost, and they are worth 70c standing.

More difficult to harvest, costing 40c to recover from more difficult terrain, and they effectively have no value. You might offer to harvest them for free, value of the logs recovered only covers the harvest cost. Harvesting low value logs isn't cheaper than high value logs, so the percentage can vary greatly.

A fixed percentage probably means that one party or the other is getting a raw deal. It may work out that the owner is getting 20%, or 30%, or 50%. But you arrive at that number by working out the harvesting costs first.

Work it backwards from the value of the logs and and you can see (and explain to everyone) that everyone involved is getting a fair deal.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline kderby

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Fossil, Oregon
  • Gender: Male
  • Western Juniper Sawmill
    • junipersawmill.com
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 02:35:52 am »
I work in Juniper , similar to ERC.  I do not have a history of paying stumpage. I say that "I pay for the logger and the landowner gets rid of the trees."   Normal practice here is to pile and burn.  No mulch market at all.  If I offer some money for the best logs, the project is in better shape for everybody.

I was recently offered green logs for thirty dollars a cord, in the deck.  That is lower than I expected.  Typically I pay $400/mbf gross scale delivered to the mill.  Fifty dollars a green ton for good saw logs.  On the other end I sell it for $850/mbf up to $2200/mbf. 

food for thought....

Offline shortlogger

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Western Arkansas
  • Gender: Male
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 04:02:59 am »
I have done it every way and It seems like there is less confusion on the land owners part when I buy it on the cord or by percentages . Although I will sometimes buy the shaving wood by the ton . I only send the best logs to the mill everything else goes to the chipper
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

Offline Cedarman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5956
  • Age: 70
  • Location: Marengo In
  • Gender: Male
    • Cedarusa
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 06:46:15 am »
An 8" cedar x 8' scales on the cedar scale what a 10" does on Doyle.  Doyle underestimates cedar footage by quite a bit.
If you scale 550' Doyle on the dump truck, how many feet do you saw out?  Most likely you have about 20 cents a foot in your lumber in log costs.
In our area of S In and N Ky land owner gets about 1/4 to 1/3 of delivered log price on the cedar scale.  Most mills pay from 40 to 50 cents or 85 to 95 dollars per ton. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline gunman63

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 473
  • Age: 1054
  • Location: northern MN
  • Gender: Male
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2012, 07:48:29 am »
30 loads of 550 feet per load on 100 acres, isnt very much is it?

Offline Cedarman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5956
  • Age: 70
  • Location: Marengo In
  • Gender: Male
    • Cedarusa
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2012, 11:08:18 am »
We logged about 50,000 feet off of 8 acres last winter.  But it was 90% cedar and we clear cut it of the cedar.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline ely

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2691
  • Age: 50
  • Location: atoka okla.
  • Gender: Male
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2012, 12:26:44 pm »
i am usually willing to pay anywhere from a nickel to 10 cents a bdft if i am doing the logging. i usually pay .25 to 40 cents for logs at my mill depending on species.

Offline stavebuyer

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
  • Location: KY
  • Gender: Male
Re: Placing a bid on some Cedar Trees/Advice Needed
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 05:03:11 am »
I generally find there is less room for misunderstandings when you purchase lump sum. When trading on percentages or per unit the lanowner will still generally want a ballpark figure of what the end result will be. You over-estimate going in and they feel shorted if the job doesn't cut out. In most "share" deals the logger in theory is watching the scale and price of logs sold to get the best outcome for himself and the landowner. In this case you'd be selling to yourself. The next thing is there always some idiot at the coffee shop saying so and so got/gave this percentage or price. My advice is buy them standing if you can.