Logging with Horses

[etat]

Norm, I just talked to my dad.  He is looking for the books.  I'll let you know later.

He did refresh my memory on some pretty good advice.  To tie a horse that doesn't want to stand, or pull loose, use a strong halter.  That goes without saying.  Also, tie the horses head high.  IF you can get the hoses head up high enough when you tie her she will not be able to pull with her body weight, nor will she want to.  The pressure will be against her neck instead of her body weight, she'll give up and stand there.

When breaking to harness with a big horse it takes THREE people, not two as I said before.  One to handle the trace reins, and one with a long lead rope on both sides of the horse.  This will make it safer for everybody involved, including the horse as she will be unable to have her own way. She won't be able to pull away from all three people if you have a good set of bits.

[etat]

Norm I found the books.  THe titles are Professor Beery's illustrated course in horse training. They were written back in the early 60's.   I have 6 of the booklets, Book one and 4  is missing.  The ones I have are Book 2 Disposition and Subjection, Book 3 Kicking and balking, book 5 Bad to shoe and halter pulling, Book 6, MIscellaneous habits, Book 7 Pony training and special fears, and Book 8 Teaching tricks to horses and dogs.  I have another course of his books on teaching saddle horses, I don't think you'd need those.

There is a world of useful information in these booklets.  Prof. Beery was of the opinion that there was no horse that could not be trained and his methods are illustrated.  If you will send me a instant message with your address  I wil send the books to you.  I'm of the opinion you need them worse than me!  Seriously , send me your address.  If you don't I will be mad.

[Norm]

Well thank you ck, that's very generous of you. I'll send you a PM.

Norm

[etat]

The check, I mean the books are in the mail!  Feed Patty, I mean the horse an apple for me!!!!!  
(running to hide again)

[HORSELOGGER]

CK isnt that guy an advocate of tieing a trip rope to the horses leg and throwing it, tieing its legs and sitting on it.etc.... I had some of those books I believe, if my memory is right. Same guy?

[etat]

Could be.   But that would be in an extreme case with a horse that was trying to hurt you.  I'm not sure I'd say he was an advocate of it, but he does have extreme solutions for the worst of horses.  I don't think Norm'd want to try some of the measures he recommended, after all it was written in the early 60's.  There is,l however, quite a bit of a usefull information in identifying and solving problems and training horses.

I have know of only one horse that my dad had to throw to shoe. Not only did they throw him, they had to completely tie him up too.  My cousin bought him and I can't remember what they called it, but he was a stud that would never dropped his b....,

Beautiful horse, but absolutely crazy.  That's one they NEVER let me get close to, and when they sold him he was as crazy as he was when my cousin bought him.

Being mean to a horse is not the right way to train, or make a friend of a horse.  That has always been my philosopy. However, there are times that you have to let the horse know that you are the boss.

[etat]

I just called my dad, I was right about the sex problem with the horse. They called the horse an 'origional'.  I have no idea if this is a correct name or not. We never used whips, clubs, or spurs, except in exteme cases where needed.  The only time I actually ever needed spurs was either with a lazy horse, or one that liked to lunge across the road with you and change directions.  You could usually tell by watching their  ears, and if you'd catch em just right, a nudge with the spurs would discourage the jumping sideways.  Wouldn't need spurs anyway with a working horse. I have seen my dad have to use a nose twist, or twist their ears more than once when shoeing.  Apparantly some farriers still use the nose twist method, because the last time I had my horse shod the guy put a twist on his nose because he was jumping around too much and wouldn't settle down.  Maybe some of them use tranquilizers now, that I don't know about as we never doped a horse.

Norm, dad said when you put bits in your horses mouth to let her wear them for at least 30 hours to get over fighting at them and get used to them.

[hosslog]

I remember the adds for Prof. Beery's books. He had a bit that he would sell you too.
I don't think that training methods have changed all that much over the years, there just aren't as many completely wild ones any more. Just horses like Norm's that somebody mishandled at some point. The trick is to try to figure out what happened and then undo the damage.

[etat]

Sorry Norm, these dont have absolutely nothing to do with logging.  That said, the little horse in the first two pictures is much much larger than she appears. Name of Ribbon.  Musta been, oh about 10 feet tall.  Now, that cowboy in the lower picture, that there's one cool cat!!!!!  Name of horse, Ranger. The horses in the lower two pictures are two different horses.  I just kinda liked them strawberry roans.  The horse with the English Saddle, That's the one that I quit fooling with horses after he got sold out from under me. Name of LUCKY, cause he was about dead when I started working with him.  I showed him with vicks salve stuffed in his nose as he was still a stud and kinda liked to cut up around them mares. Flat shod, racking classes. We built the wagon from scratch.















Horse above is Target.  Best all around trail horse I ever sat.  The horse was big, and I was small, and if ya weren't careful, we'd ride ya in the ground.  He was well trained at neck reining, or I could tun him with my knees.  American Saddle Horse. Many's the time I left home before daylight, and didn't get in until after dark on that horse.  We had no boundaries, My only instructions were to take care of the horse and be careful....... No brag, Just fact, (Will Sonnet, from the Guns of Will Sonnet)

[Norm]

Thanks for the pictures ck. My dad would use some harsh measures on wild ponies. He worked at the sale barn in Eldora, IA. At the time it was known as the pony capitol of the world. Then ponies went out of favor. Once a year they would still have a horse sale. Big deal for a small town. We'd always get some wild ones in and have to deal with um. A sorting stick across the nose was his instructions for when one would try to run over you. Harsh yep but it worked. He would use the tieing up one leg and throw a saddle on them until they got used to a saddle.

I was wondering how much you folks feed your working horses. Since Becky is in foal I treat her pretty good with hay and oats with sweet feed. But one day I'd like to have few more and am considering putting up my own hay instead of buying it. I'd run a rotation on about 5 acres for the oats and hay. Can you guys give me a round about idea of what you feed to your working horses to see if it's worth it to take my land out of production. Right now I just trade storage for my renters corvette in my Morton for hay but may put up my own. I will say that Becky can pack it away. See eats like a horse.

[hosslog]

Norm, feeding is a whole 'nother set of books . Basicly I feed 2 pounds of hay for every 100 pounds of body weight  and 1 pound of grain for  every 100 pounds of body weight when they are working. Weekends I cut the grain in half and give them a little more hay. If they aren't going to work for a week or so I don't grain them at all. I buy all my hay so that breaks down to 3 to 4 kicker bales a day for my team.
If you feed round bales I would recommend that you unrap it and only feed what she will clean up. Horses tend to eat holes into the round bales and then they inhale the hay dust while they got their heads  down in the hole eating, this can cause heaves, a respitory problem . If you have several horses they will clean up the bale faster and this isn't usually a problem.

[Norm]

Thanks hosslog, I was thinking of having it cut and baled in the big bales but was concerned about it going bad with only a couple of horses to eat on it. I'd not heard of the heaves problem so I'll use the small square baler instead. It's so darned hard to know if I'm over or underfeeding. I buy a couple hundred bushels of oats in the fall and switch between a bale of good alfalfa and one of grass hay. She seems to stay at the same weight so hopefully I'm doing it right.

[Swede]

  A lot to read. In my family are and have been some men handling horses very good. Some of what you have written I recognize, some of it Iīve heard but donīt want to recognize.
My mothers brothers is a little famous as horsemen and their father realy was.

Remember the horse is the most shy of our tame animals. You can force a horse to anything but never trust him after that.  Mutual trusting in the work with Your horse is what you need and in some situations itīs a condition for both your lifes. To hit a horse in his head was the first I learned not to do. He will never trust (or like you) and itīs easy to kill him with your hand that way.

As a young boy I read about how an idian tamed a horse but did belive it was just a story. Some years ago i get in contact with people applying "Natural Horsemanship" (use Google!) I get very surprised finding they use the same methods! Iīve written about it earlier in # Oxen logging.
Some people can take a never handled horse into a high fence and (standing in the middle) get him to run clockwise, counter-klockwise, in a cross...........all without anything hanging on the horse or any tools in their hands. With a lot of patience the horse finally come to them and be sociable.
I think itīs the same with dogs, kids, horses and most animals. There is occasions (with a horse at least one) there come to a showdown. You may not lose the trust or the showdown. Most kids and horses you can fool into the right way and done good they donīt see through it.

I remember grown people talked about defective horses that bite or just ONE TIME had bolted. Donīt buy him! I had a horse 20 years ago who became sausage before he was 5 y.o.   Some horses you canīt trust but he was 3 years before i get him.

A foal can run around the mare during the work. Used to be tied the first month he can even be tied in the mares harness when she is pulling a vagon early, but not for a whole day. I think my mothers brother was 6 years when he made a kind of harness and used  rims on a foal before it was 3 months. My grandparents didnīt know. He even took siesta beside the foal and the mare belived she got twins  
Boys and horses are never to young to learn. Some children  learn very early how to get their whole worldīs attention......by bitig!  Early trained horses you donīt have to learn very much, they are born into work. And they are not afraid of anything.

Swede.

PS. , doīt take the phone tonight and ask about it!

[etat]

Early trained horses you donīt have to learn very much, they are born into work. And they are not afraid of anything. !

Maybe, maybe not.  They can be startled, and if so can jump sideways, maybe say into creek full of COLD water.  Especially if you happened to be riding beside a corn field and someone say happened to crank and rev up a cornpicker just out of sight of you and the horse.  You might find yourself astride that horse right in the middle of the creek.  . Now if that little creek had real steep banks I think you'd find that both you the horse would decide that that wasn't the place you wanted to be.  

[etat]

per swede you can absolutely work the horse with the colt in tow, in fact it's good for the colt



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unlike per swede, this horse was 9 years old.  As a 2 and 3 year old this horse won a roomful of trophies.  Then the owner sold this horse to a man who bought him for his daughter. As this was a very spirited horse the daughter was unable to ride.  The horse stayed pastured for years, without being rode, or handled.  The person who then bought this horse when attempting to ride, wound up getting hurt, horse went down on him and broke his leg.  He contacted me about retraining the horse.

The struggle was  on, At first I only dared mount the horse in deep plowed up fields, or with dad holding a lead rein (luckily it was the fall of the year and all crops were in).  Bad habits included rearing up, trying to run away, and not wanting to listen to or learn commands.  I rode this horse absolutely EVERY day for appx. 7 months, rain, or shine.  EVERY time I showed at first folks who knew the horse would get out of the way when I rode into the ring, it would be a short rodeo, usually a couple of loops around the ring.  Then the horse would settle down and work, and show.  When I turned the horse back over to the owner I could get on the horse in the pasture with a halter, and ride to the barn bareback.  The most difficult trick was learning how the original commands had been taught to the horse years ago, he did remember.  You would never kick this horse, he'd try to unseat you.  He best responded to voice commands.  Walk, Fast Walk, Stop (not whoa) stop, bring it down if you wanted him to slow down, stretch out if you wanted him to stand, etc.  It took months for me to learn 'all' the needed information and understand the horse. When I returned the horse to the owner, he was unable to grasp the absolute needs to learn these commands and understand the horse.  I wound up accompanying him to the sale so I could ride the horse and show the buyers what he was capable of.


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A young horse  halter broke and trained to stand




Again, while this has absolutely nothing to do with logging, methods used to initially communicate with and train any horse would be similar. I was always best at training and riding.  Solving problems and knowing what to do next and how to go about it was an absolute specialty of my dad's.  To quote an old cliché, he's forgotten more about training horses than I ever knew. When I had a problem with a horse I ALWAYS consulted him.  Hence the phone calls.  He originally bought Prof. Berries books back in the 60's to try to TEACH ME, as I was pretty stubborn and hard headed, not unlike many horses.

[Norm]

Swede I'm going to tell Patty's fat horse if she don't straighten up she's going to the sausage factory.  In the US we don't eat horse meat but they used to kid about em going to the glue factory. At the sale barn we'd have people that would bring in the pet pony they didn't want anymore. After it would sell they'd come back to make sure it was going to a good home. Most times they were bought for slaughter and shipped to Canada. We would never say anything if asked.

Are drafts prone to any problems the first time they foal? I remember some breeds have to have some help the first time but wasn't sure about the big drafts. Patty is going to be gone when Becky is supposed to have her colt. I'm not fond of pulling colts and something that big would be worse. Maybe I'll just put the vet on speed dial.

[Swede]

"In the US we don't eat horse meat"

Norm, In Sweden we donīt know when we are eating horse meat.   How do You know in these days when food is an industry?
No iron chips in the sausage is no evidence!

Swede.

[etat]

 

First lesson I had in horse trading. My dad went to buy a horse, he'd done told me how much he'd give. I was about 4 or 5 years old.  Of course I wanted him to buy the horse.  They're trading, and jewing back and forth.  I think things are moving too slow, and blurt out "Well dad said he'd give 'x amount of dollars'.  Kinda busted up dad's trading plan, but he did buy the horse.  

I had it explained to me by the seat of my britches why that sometimes you just oughta keep your mouth shut.  I've been given the impression many many times in my life that maybe that's just one lesson I never did completely learn.  

[hosslog]

Norm, I haven't foaled to many mares  but the ones I did never had any problems. The ones I had were cross' between light horses and drafts bred back to a part morgan stallion.

Swede, Do my horses in under my name look anything like the Ardennes that you mentioned?

ck,Enjoy your pictures.Musta been a terrible childhood.

[SwampDonkey]

A whiffletree (which means single tree) is what we use to yard logs with, hooked to a horse's harness with chains. Off the whiffle-tree is a chain connected from a hook on the whiffle-tree. That chain has a hook of its own you wrap the log with.

Some notes on production and costs of horse logging

http://www.unb.ca/web/standint/nbcc/machine/skidding/jmoore_b.html