1985 Tree Farmer C7 Skidder with NO Brakes - HELP

[chopper888]

I have been reading this forum for awhile and finally joined.  I have started a small logging company in Central Illinois and I am working on my second job.  I just bought an older C7 with a Can-Car winch and axles and has a big grapple.  It has the Detroit 4-71 and runs great!  I put a rebuilt winch on it also and it is ready for the woods.  The only remaining problem is that there are no brakes.  I followed the line from the master cylinder to the lock on the dash and down under the floor behind the motor.  That's where it comes to an end...literally!  The line doesn't connect to anything.  I don't know anything about these skidders(but I'm learning more every day whether I want to or not!).  Does anyone know how the brakes are configured on these?  Are they on the axles, or is the braking done in the transmission?  It seems everyone I have asked has given me a different answer.  I can post some pics if anyone is interested.    Thanks in advance for any help!

[Skiddah]

So the brake line coming from the microlock just ends?  If you could post some pictures, I think I can help you.  I just rebuilt the brakes on my C6D this last spring and I'm very familiar with the setup.  I also have a parts book for the C6 with some references to the C7.  They had a few different brake options, but the diagrams cover them all.  Post some pics and I'll see what I can do.

[Skiddah]

As I think a little more, I'll tell you how mine are setup, hopefully yours are close or it gives you a place to start.  I have a single disc brake underneath the seat in the belly pan by the transfer case.  The brake lines run from the master cylinder the microlock on the dash, and from there they attach to the cylinder on the brakes on the left hand side of the brakes if you were looking straight down from the seat.  The hand brake cable runs from the handle on the left side of the cab down to the right side of the disc if you were again looking straight down from the seat. 

When I rebuilt my brakes, they were having a hard time holding fluid.  I'd fill up every morning and the master  cylinder would go dry within a day or so, sometimes quicker if I was holding on a lot of hard winching.  My microlock was corroded a bit on the bottom and I was leaking there.  I rebuilt the master cylinder with a rebuild kit ($30) but that didn't hold.  I ended up replacing it since the Tree Farmer master cylinders tend to "egg" and become oval shaped in the center causing the plunger and rings to not work properly.  Davco in Farmington, ME (local Tree Farmer and more parts store) told me that it is really hard to tell by looks alone if your cylinder is egged.  I didn't want to buy a new microlock at the time ($300 or so) but I had three other microlocks, and each one didn't work quite right.  I ended up them all apart and selecting the best guts from one and the best casing from another, reassembling them, and voila! It works great now.  For good measure I replaced my brake line running to the disc as well.  On the cylinder on the disc (called the slave cylinder??)  I had some issues as well.  There is a rubber boot on the inside that had a giant hole in it causing debris to get into the cylinder and mess up some rings.  I bought a cylinder rebuild kit, installed it, and now she'll hold on the steepest ground I can find yanking the biggest twitch possible.  Granted, I had some spare parts, but replacing the master cylinder, the brake lines, and rebuilding the cylinder cost around $225.

Hope this helps a bit but if you post pics I think I can pin point which brake system you have and tell you what parts to look for.

[chopper888]

Thank you Skiddah!  I will try and take some pics today and post them here. 

[mad murdock]

Welcome to the forestry forum chopper888.  Hope you get the brakes going. C7 is a pretty sizable machine

[chopper888]

Here are a couple pictures of the front of the transmission and brake line.  These are taken directly under the floor board in the cab.  You can see two disconnected lines.  One is a rubber line with a 90 dgree fitting.  That is a greas line.  The other is lower and is a steel line with a flare fitting on it.  That is the one that comes from the master cylinder.  I don't see any brake drums, disks, or anything down there.  I can't even see any open location where the brake line would have gone.  I'm stumped!  The transmission is on the left of the picture.  The top drive shaft you see is coming from the engine and the bottom goes out to the front drive axle. 

By the way, I think I responded to your post about a winch yesterday.  I have added some pictures of my new and old winch to my gallery if you want to take a look. 

Thanks again to everyone for the welcome and the help!



 

  

 

[Autocar]

I can't tell much from your pictures but on my C7 grapple skidder I have a micro and a hand brake thats all on the rear of the transmission. The foot pedal theres a disk on the drive line to the back axle. It has a calipper that has two pistons that push on a single brake shoe up against the disk.

[chopper888]

I just went out and looked all around the transmission again and I don't see any kind of caliper or drum anywhere.  Here are a  couple pictures of the back of the transmission.  The top shaft goes to the winch gearbox and the bottom shaft goes out to the rear axle.  I also just noticed that 3rd and 4th gear only work in reverse.  On this transmission, there is a lever on the left side of the seat that is forward, reverse and neutral.  Then, on the right side, by the winch control, is a lever that has 4 positions.  I assume that is gears 1-4.  The bottom two work fine in forward and reverse, but the top two only work in reverse.  Any ideas on that?  Thanks again!

 

  

 

[Autocar]

Your transmission is nothing like my three speed power shift, but where the drive shaft goes to the back rear end [ mine has a caliper bach in the back fram. ] See if you have two break lines crossing over where the machine articulates one goes to the winch and the other [ Mine ] goes to the brake peddle / brake caliper . Not sure if I explained that right , hope this will help you out Bill.

[chopper888]

Well thank you again for trying to help!  I'll keep digging around and looking.  It seems so strange to me that I can follow the line all the way down and it just stops!  I don't even see a place where a caliper could have been mounted.  There is a fitting on the end, so it connected to something at some point in its life.  Oh well, I have to get this monster into the woods to make some money!  So far it has been a lot of money going out and not enough coming in....time for the old Tree Farmer to start earning its keep. 

Thanks again for everyone's comments and help.  Hopefully someday I'll solve the mystery!  I'll post some pictures of this guy dragging some massive Oak and Walnut logs soon. 

[redlaker1]

its funny    just the other day I was telling an old logger at work about the shotty brakes on my tree farmer  and that I would probably just use the blade for a brake,     and he told me that he had a partner in the bush that used the blade as a brake     until one day he caught a stump hard        said he left most of his front teeth on the hood of the tree farmer.     haha

so needless to say I am getting the brakes relined and fixed up as we speak


hopefully another C7 owner will have some advice or pictures of the setup on their machine,    so you can see what is missing.

if not it would be pretty easy to retrofit some sort of mico brake on the driveline,    they have lots of models for all kinds of applications

good luck

[Autocar]

Chopper888 I'll put another angle to your brake, once the drive line leaves the transmission and enters the rear section of the skidder . The drive line inters a idle bearing then passes on though going back to the rear end. Between the transmission and Idle bearing right against the idle bearing this is where my disk is on the drive shaft. Then theres a mounting bracket for the caliper and brake shoe. I think mine is a 83 model so they may be different. Bill

[kiko]

That appears to be a Franklin transmission, If so the brake may be a wet clutch set up and may be located in the trans where the drive line to the front diff comes out of trans.

[kiko]

one more thing to add, if there is a tag on the trans those numbers would help run it down.

[semologger]

We never did have brakes on our C5C but i sure wish dad took the time to fix them. he never ran it I did so wasnt a big deal I guess. It wasnt so bad until the dang thing started slipping out of gear on its own pulling a hill. I was so happy getting that 450 timberjack. Not nearly as scared to go up or down hills also. Never ran the tree farter again. 

[chopper888]

Haven't been on in a couple days, so just catching up on the posts.  Thanks again for all the good responses.  I looked again at the front and rear drive shafts, and I don't see anyplace where a caliper would have been mounted.  It does have the carrier bearing on the rear, but no other brackets or space for brakes.  Kiko, you may be on to something.  I don't see any numbers on the transmission, but I need to get in there with a power washer and really look.  I'm sure they're just covered up.  I added a couple more pics of the front of the transmission, so maybe that will help you visualize it.  Do you have any documentation or other information on how these work?  Did the brake line just go into the front of the transmission?  Do you know how they were bled, adjusted or serviced.  I hope you don't have to take the transmission out to work on them! 
 

 

 

 

[chopper888]

Another thought...do you have any history on that transmission....ie, was it reliable, did it have specific failure points, are there still parts available, etc.    Thank you!

[Ohio_Bill]

If it is a Franklin transmission  there is a  Franklin dealer near me that has been around for over 50 years  . Baker and Sons ,  Lewisville Ohio    740 567 3317 .  I bet they could help .

[chopper888]

I called Baker and Sons and I think they may be able to help.  I have to call them back on Monday with a serial number.  Thank you for the info!

I had the skidder working this weekend and brakes would definitely be helpful!  I am on a site with very steep grades.  I had to back up to a standing tree and then use the blade to hold it.  It works, but what a pain!  Here are some pictures of the adventure.  19 logs on the deck and about 30 more trees down in the timber waiting. 

The Detroit screamed and smoked for 8 hours straight with no problems!!  And the rebuilt winch pulled like crazy.  Each log had to come up a steep hill before we skidded it out.  The largest was about a 42" diameter oak tree that was about 45' down in a ravine.  Ok, I had to buck that one before it would come up, but what a pull!