Author Topic: Concept for combo log dog, turner and leveler. (Read 938 times)

shenandoahsawmill · « **on:** February 09, 2012, 01:12:21 pm »

Working on a concept for a log dog, turner, leveler all in one package. The discs have spikes on the edges of them and the discs are welded to the shafts. The discs/shafts are rotated by independent hydraulic motors. Discs turning in the opposite directions dog/undog the log. Discs turning in the same direction rotate the log. CW or CCW as necessary. Raise or lower the end of the frame will level the log. Is this worth chasing and building a prototype? Thanks for any feedback. Gary

LOGDOG · « **Reply #1 on:** February 09, 2012, 02:21:43 pm »

Check out Mighty Mite's Log handling table ...the tricked out one. I'd add a squaring arm. Most of the guys buying swing mills aren't going to spend the money on something like this. We've kind of talked about it in various threads in the past. D&L Doublecut has built a trailer mounted 2 and 3 saw mill that has hydraulics log handling built into the bed.That's a better scenario because you have fixed points to use with setworks, leveling jacks on the chassis to get your rails right, you can add a log loader, etc, etc. Order his dvd and check it out.

Just my opinion....

beenthere · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2012, 02:58:11 pm »

Concept looks promising to me.
Because logs are not perfect cylinders, then it seems the four disks shown would need to work independently to allow for irregularities in log surface.
Also to allow shifting the log to saw parallel to the log surface (face) and allow for taper.
Maybe controlling shifting position of each "axle" would add another degree of fixing the log too.

Would need to be sure the "dogs" on the disks will be able to make good contact with the log as a void may mean lost control.

Magicman · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2012, 04:12:23 pm »

Yup, log irregularities will be hard to compensate for.

shenandoahsawmill · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2012, 05:24:49 pm »

Thanks for all of the feedback. Logdog, I tried to find info on the Mighty Mite's Log handling table and came up empty. I will keep looking. My primary interest is to bottom dog logs, level up the pith (end to end and) and do some slight rotation to level crotch sections. Logs will be cut bark to bark from top to to bottom with wide horizontal band. Hopefully just before dog contact. Once dogged and set there will be no furthur log movement. If this works it will save me from the time consuming step of log rotation. I agree irregular shapes could be an issue. Thanks for pointing that out. Might be worth using splined shafts to be able to slide one set of discs to a better place on the log. Thoughts? Gary

LOGDOG · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2012, 05:43:20 pm »

Email Mighty Mite for a price list and brochure and you'll see what I mean. Are you thinking of building this just for yor own personal needs or to manufacture and market?

Jeff · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2012, 06:14:47 pm »

If the assembly was mounted on a shaft to create a float table, and that table had an up and down ability of some sort it would handle crooked lumpy or tapered logs,

shenandoahsawmill · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:04:52 pm »

LogDog; Thanks I will e-mail Mighty Mite. I am interested in fabricating one to use on my mill to cut down on the time that I spend on log setup, prior to actually making sawdust. Jeff; Yes, A float table is what I had in mind. When I mount this on my mill the frame will be fastened to the hydraulic levelers so it will basically float. I think this is what you are referring to. It looks as though you have center pins to float on which would make rotation possible with much less force. I like that idea. Thanks Gary

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:31:40 pm »

Instead of two separate motors and trying to have the discs in the right place to clamp, it may be possible to use one motor below this unit with a chain going around sprockets on both shafts as well as the motor with some slack in the chain, having a idler roller on the top in between the top two driven shafts and one idler roller on each side in between the motor shaft and each driven shaft. when the top idler roller is pulled down the log dogs will turn towards them selves (the side rollers will have to move out 1/2 the distance each at the same time) dogging the log, then push the top roller up and side rollers in to release log. this way the discs will always be in time with each other.

Fast cheesy drawing included.

hackberry jake · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2012, 11:37:17 pm »

What about when you get a square cant? It's gunna be hard to level each cut with the blade

Meadows Miller · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2012, 04:26:42 am »

Gday

Jake I think thats what Jeff was getting at with the float and updown ability

I Have seen video off Russian Mills that have the ability to turn a log with bull wheels it was like a heavy duty quater saw but they also built a twin saw with the saws in the same plane that had the same sort off thing they used self centering dogs and Hyd flip up style squaring arm

I think your onto a good idea what size wheels where you thinking off and what dia range are you wanting to work on Mate

Regards Chris

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2012, 05:31:19 am »

Quote from: hackberry jake on February 09, 2012, 11:37:17 pm

What about when you get a square cant? It's gunna be hard to level each cut with the blade

Not only a square cant, but when you have a flat side laying against rolls. That will be harder to turn. How far apart do you make those rolls? How do you make something lay flat that is smaller than the top point of the 2 rolls?

mad murdock · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2012, 05:48:00 am »

THINKING gathered from his post that he wA planning on live sawing exclusively with an arrangement like that, so he would not be using it to dog anything but round logs? Mebbe?Interesting idea.

Magicman · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2012, 07:24:55 am »

Quote from: mad murdock on February 10, 2012, 05:48:00 am

Interesting idea.

An interesting idea yes, but seemingly a lot of mechanics and obstacles to overcome to accomplish the simple task of turning, clamping, and accommodating the vast differences of log sizes and shapes.

LOGDOG · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2012, 09:18:08 am »

Shenandoahsawmill ...

Take a look at these videos. The fella "Mike" is a member here. I think his handle is Fabrik. I've talked to him personally and he's a very nice, very smart guy. He manufactures these log decks for swing mills and he has addressed all this turning, irregular shaped log clamping, as well as handling the squared cant (if you end up with one) in the final stages. You could literally just order a set up from him and go to work. Check out these videos:

LOGDOG · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2012, 09:23:10 am »

Just a thought too ...you could replace those jacks under the bunk with air cylinders or hydraulics if you're set up stationary and want to add speed to the mix and don't mind spending the money. But Mike seems to have address the X,Y,and Z axis issues we're all faced with in log handling. Hope the videos help.

shenandoahsawmill · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2012, 12:53:34 pm »

Thanks for the great feedback everyone. I will only be using the discs to dog/turn against the round log so I am not concerned about registering a flat surface against the discs. I am concerned about dogging against irregular log shapes though. Hilltop I like your idea of rotating the discs toward each other (at the top) with chain to dog the log but this does not give me the flexibility to keep rotating a log if necessary because the chain keeps the discs spinning in the same direction. Logdog. Access to the videos that you post is blocked here at work. I am looking forward to checking them out at home. I would much rather buy something off the shelf if it will do everything I want it to do instead of re-inventing the wheel. Thanks again for digging up the video. Gary

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2012, 06:30:48 pm »

Quote from: shenandoahsawmill on February 10, 2012, 12:53:34 pm

Hilltop I like your idea of rotating the discs toward each other (at the top) with chain to dog the log but this does not give me the flexibility to keep rotating a log if necessary because the chain keeps the discs spinning in the same direction.

Not sure I follow what you are saying, my thinking is that you would want the discs turning in the same direction (either clock wise or counter clock wise ) to turn the log, then dog or undog with the top centre roller, another thought would be to eliminate the side rollers and have motor on the bottom move up when putting the top roller down to provide the required slack in the chain.

LOGDOG · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2012, 07:59:06 pm »

Hope you like the videos when you get a chance to watch them. You may want to contact him and ask him about the new chain cradle roller he speaks of. I think he sent me pictures of it, but I'd have to look back in my emails and then ask him if he minds me posting them. He said they weren't shown for a reason. I'm not sure if he was patenting the setup or what.

shenandoahsawmill · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2012, 11:31:51 pm »

Hilltop; You are absolutely correct. I was not following your train of thought but I get it now. Great idea to be able to run the discs with one motor and to clamp with a hyd cylinder. I am wondering how much force you would need from the idler rollers to undog the log or get the teeth back out of the log. This might take another two hyd cylinders pushing on the idler rollers. Also you would have to have a good bit of slack in the chain that is taken up by the idler rollers to allow the discs to rotate enough to engage the teeth in the log. And, it also depends how many teeth you have on the discs. I'd like to lay that out in a 3D model to see how it would all work out. Thanks for the idea. Logdog. Many great ideas in the videos. These ideas and practices are a big improvement from where i am now with all of my manual log handling. My thoughts would be to take it to the next level and do everything with the push/pull of hyd valve handles. Some good ideas to build on though. Thanks for posting them. Gary

Silver_Eagle · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2012, 11:56:49 pm »

Here is a link to a twin vertical with a roller system similar to to one I ran in Oregon. This system is for smaller log's, the one I ran had two solid 26' roller's that you could raise or lower and spin left or right individually to dog your log.

I looked for a video of the solid roller's for viewing, they where very slick. They work well set up with live log bunk's coming into the system as in the head rig I ran.

captain_crunch · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2012, 12:00:37 am »

As Jeff will tell you got to have back stop to work against fer turner to work Mobile Dim has made roller system to turn log since the 80's

Brucer · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2012, 01:29:54 am »

The basic concept is sound. Whether or not you can transform it into a working system is a whole other story. The only way you will find out is to try it. Don't expect the first two or three tries to work very well. For example, you may need to move the two shafts closer together or further apart to handle different sized logs.

I used to design things meticulously before building anything. That meant it took a long time to get something built, and then it usually didn't work as well as expected. Now I knock something together with no intention of it lasting more than a few cycles. Then I take what I learned from it and build a better version.

The Wood-Mizer mill didn't go into production straight off the drawing board.

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2012, 08:39:50 am »

One problem I do see is being able to compensate for log taper for the clamping part, if one end is considerably larger it would clamp before the small end could be clamped.

Brucer · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2012, 06:32:06 pm »

It wouldn't be hard to do that with your chain drive solution. If you have a chain drive for each pair of disks you could pull down the top sprocket further on one end to get deeper clamping action.

With disks mounted directly to shafts, a torsion spring between the pair of disks on a shaft would also do the job. Or you could direct drive the disks with independent hydraulic motors.

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2012, 07:46:22 pm »

Perhaps a easier build would be to use the the disc for turning, could use two larger sprockets to do the turning of the log, a motor to drive one shaft and two smaller sprockets and chain to connect them together. Then have two sets of hyd. log dogs, one set would adjust up and down for taper, and if needed the other set could slide back and forth for log length. Both sets of dogs could be run by the same valve and would self adjust for taper. This would requirer 1 motor and 1 cylinder for the turner, two cylinders for clamping, one cylinder for height adjustment for taper.

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 11, 2012, 07:54:14 pm »

Also wondering if turner/dogging disc set up on one end and just dogs on the other end would work?

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Author Topic: Concept for combo log dog, turner and leveler. (Read 938 times)