Help Woodmizer blades getting hot in wide cypress!

[Cypress Sam]

I have been cutting cypress for years with a lumbermate 2000 and never had a problem cutting through wide green cypress cants.  I bought a lt35 in july and did not have much problem untill I bought some large cypress logs this winter.  Have a good market for 16 and 18 inch wide 6/4 board but they are killing my blades.  Blades are staying clean with soap and water but gettin hat before the exit the left side of the cant.  Must be some way to cut them, lots of other people do.

[buildthisfixthat]

try the cooks supersharp blades they are 1/8 inch wider than standard blades dissapates heat over more area and also higher beam strenght

[beenthere]

cypress
Have you checked the set?

[Cypress Sam]

Cook blades could be an option, but I have a couple boxes of WM general puropse blades and was hoping to find a way to get more than 4 to 6 hundres feet out of them.  WM sharpens my blades and i dont think the sharpen Cook blades.
 Thanks
  Sam
 

[Cypress Sam]

Standard factory set.  I dont have a way to check it.  I thought a little more set might help.

[beenthere]

untill I bought some large cypress logs this winter.  Have a good market for 16 and 18 inch wide 6/4 board but they are killing my blades

Standard factory set might not fit all situations, and your large cypress might be outside the norm.

Maybe bone up on a way to check and add more set to give it a try.

[Cypress Sam]

Kinda thought it might be.  I am hoping someone with WM might jump in with some magic.

[pnyberg]

Which WM blade configuration are you using?

--Peter

[Brucer]

I've had problems with blades heating up with wide cuts in dry wood. When it happens I sock the blade lube to it -- wide open if I have to. When the blade gets hot the tension gauge starts to drop -- opening up the lube usually starts it back up.

If you don't have a pitch problem, straight water works better than diesel or other oil-based lubes.

[LOGDOG]

Cypress Sam ...

If you pull up my posts and search through them you'll see pictures of my little LT30HD with a 24 HP Onan maxing out cuts as wide as my guides would allow in Sinker Cypress. I can saw it as straight and cool as can be with the Woodmizer blades. The one thing I do alter is the set. I go wide. Here's a chart for you from Timber Wolf Blades/Suffolk Machinery that I've posted before. The wider the log the more set you need to mix more air in the cut. After all, the amount of chips you're creating is that much greater and without adding more set you can't help but get heat in the cut ...even if you add water. Plus the extra set gives you stability in the cut and helps fight those wavy cuts.

http://www.suffolkmachinery.com/set-and-hook-angles/

It sounds like you don't have a sharpener or setter? Maybe you can talk one of the members here into doing a blade or two up for you to try. If I'm going to be in wide wood, I also decrease my hook angle down as low as 4 degrees if it's hardwood, 7 or 9 degrees for soft big wood ...so I get good penetration. I like to think of it in boxing terms. The low hook angle is like the "jab" when you're in a tough spot and fighting for your life. The higher hook angles are like the roundhouse when you've got momentum on your side and you can swing away.

Surely we have a member close to you that could help you out in sharpening a few blades?

[customsawyer]

I have cut lots of cypress. The biggest problem when cutting cypress is if the logs get a little older and are dry on the outside edge but still moist in the center. When your blade is going from dry to wet then back to dry in the same cut it makes blades do some strange things. I think some of the folks up north fight this when they are cutting logs that a partially frozen. When it comes to the cypress you are taking dry sawdust from the first edge and introducing it to lots of moisture which will make the sawdust swell and bind your blade causing heat. The best thing is to slow way down to give the blade time to unload the sawdust so that you are not over filling the gullets. One other thing you might try is some of the 1 1/8 tooth spacing blades. You can also cut the slabs off all four sides first before you try cutting any of the lumber as this will reduce the amount of dry wood you are cutting.

[Cypress Sam]

I have a couple of friends with sharpeners and setters. I will see if more set helps.  I'm not sure which blade profile im runing.Think it's 7/8. Looks to be the same as my old norwood blades.  Im thinking it's gonna be a set issue.  wish i had some sinker to cut.  have ran over 100m bf through the old norwood but Arkansas says we cant pull it out anymore.
 
  found out this afternoon that I can make fair time cuttin if I run water wide open.  had my help cussin walkin through water.  that wont work in the mornin.  they will leae for lunch and not come back.

thanks for all the help
 sam
 

[Cypress Sam]

sorry abou that last post I had to go find a computer that the keys worked on all the time
Sam

[zopi]

try more set, failing that, pour the blade lube to it...might also consider an extra line ..put coolant on the blade on the other side of the log too...

I have cut alot of cypress with my little lt-15..never had trouble heating blades, but I sure do hate that dry wood. Cypress is by far my favorite wood though..I really need to get a few long fresh logs and get the strips ripped for that kayak I am going to build....someday..ish.

[LOGDOG]

Remember too that adding water actually causes the chips to swell. That water goes in the same side of the cuts as the blade enters the log so those chips pick up that water and expand all the way through the cut. Even though it's happening quickly, it's happening. That's why additional set is so crucial. Gotta make room for that chip expansion.  Once I discovered Suffolk's blade theory and put it to work in my other blades I never had a problem again with my bands. You might even decide you want to buy a sharpener and setter so you can be in better control as it relates to setting up your blades for specific cutting tasks.

[beenthere]

Myself, I would not expect chips to expand that fast and they would be pulled out through the cut before any affect takes place.
Such rapid expansion would amount to many problems with wood if it did happen. Just sayin...

[LOGDOG]

Cypress Sam,

Here's a link for you (and for anyone else interested) :http://www.suffolkmachinery.com/six-rules-of-sawing/

Read the whole thing. A few key points though:

"CHOOSING THE PROPER BAND SAW BLADE LUBRICATION
NEVER USE WATER as a lubricant on band saw blades. Water is NOT a lubricant and is the WRONG thing to use for many reasons.

1. For the woodworker using 1″ and 1 1/4″ bands, not only is water unacceptable as a lubricant, but it also rusts the bands causing deep pitting, and inappropriate chip swelling. This prematurely destroys the body of the band and its gullets. It also dry rots your tires or V-belts.
For proper lubrication mix HIGH ADHESION CHAIN SAW BAR OIL, with 50% kerosene or diesel fuel. Apply the solution with a spray bottle to BOTH sides of the band about once every four minutes, while the machine is running. When this lubrication is applied, the sound of cutting decreases over 50%. DO NOT APPLY AGAIN until the sound of cutting starts increasing. I guarantee you will be amazed! Longer life; No pitch buildup; No rusted or pitted bands! A great delivery system is the 12 volt windshield washer assembly out of an old car!
2. “Pam” spray-on vegetable shortening is a great lubrication for 3/4″ WIDTH AND UNDER band saw blades on vertical saws. (EXAMPLE: Delta, Grizzly, Jet, etc.) Unplug the machine. Spray Pam vegetable shortening on a rag and wipe on both sides of the blade while turning the upper wheel by hand. You will hear a 50% sound reduction when cutting."

Also.....

"A band saw blade is a tool. You must lubricate both sides!
In both cases, we know for a fact that lubrication of the body of the band increases band life by over 30%. Applied sparingly, you can cut grade lumber with NO staining to your product."

And .....

"WHAT IS APPROPRIATE SET?
Appropriate set is when you have a mixture of 65%-70% saw dust and 30%-35% air in the space between the body of the band and the wood you are cutting. The SIGN you are looking for, when you are running appropriate set, IS A GOOD 80%-85% SAW DUST EJECTION FROM THE CUT! If you are running too much set for the mass or thickness of the wood, you have too much air and not enough saw dust. You will leave EXCESSIVE loose saw dust and most likely it will be accompanied by tooth marks. If you are running under set, you will have no air flow pulling the saw dust out…The SIGN for this is excessive HOT packed down saw dust. This is the most damaging thing you can do to a band. You will have short cutting times and premature band breakage. The saw dust should be warm to the touch, not hot or cold. One last thing, a band that is excessively under set will cut in a wavy motion, and a band that has an improper HOOK ANGLE and is UNDER SET will cut a bow across the board every time! See “TROUBLE SHOOTING”.

WHAT IS HOOK ARTICULATION?
Because of our deep gullets, we are able to use lower hook angles which generate less heat on the tip of the tooth. The Timber Wolf® series of bands uses a 10 degree rake or hook angle which is capable of penetrating most surfaces from medium-hard to medium-soft woods.

If you are cutting very hard wood like white oak, walnut, ash or anything frozen throughout, the blade will probably rise in the cut. This is called push-off. The hook angle must be brought back to 8 degrees. You will notice as the angle goes from 10 degrees to 8 degrees, the tooth becomes more perpendicular, thus INCREASING its penetration factor.

As the tip of the tooth goes from 10 degrees to 12 degrees the tip of the tooth starts pointing forward DECREASING penetration in hardwood. If you use 8 degrees on soft wood the blade may chatter because it’s over feeding itself, unless it’s very knotty. You need to use an 8 degree hook angle for hard knots. On the other hand, if you use a 12 degree hook angle on very hard wood, the tooth skips over the hard surface because the tip of the tooth is pointing too far forward.

Having a 12 degree hook angle in hardwood cutting causes push-off making the band ride up. The band locks itself in place, cuts straight across, and drops down at the end of the cut. This also burns up the band and over tensions it.

By articulating the proper hook angle, and having your gullet mathematically correct for the pitch, you will achieve straight grade cuts every time. YOU MUST UNDERSTAND APPROPRIATE SET AND HOOK ARTICULATION, THEY WORK TOGETHER. We manufacture for North America 5 appropriate sets with a 10 degree hook angle. 70% of the time this hook angle will be perfect for whatever you are cutting. See “TROUBLE SHOOTING”."

Try it... the results will speak for themselves. 

[pineywoods]

Sam, just south of you across the state line, there are 4 woodmizers that cut a lot of big cypress. 3 lt40 manuals and 1 lt40 super. Many years of experience sawing cypress. I do my own blades, woodmizer sharpener and a dual tooth setter. I set my blades a minimum of .025, sometimes even .030. See if you can catch LeroyC on here. He's the expert.

[LOGDOG]

I also forgot to past this part but it's very relevant:

"GULLET PROCEDURE SHARPENING
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SHARPEN A BAND SAW BLADE. A stone must come down the face of the tooth, around the bottom of the gullet and up the back side of the tooth in ONE SWEEPING ACTION. You MUST maintain gullet integrity.

The gullet is NOT a trash can or dumpster for the saw dust. In fact, it is the second hardest working part of the band. A well defined gullet is like the inverted wing of an aircraft. It is responsible for the forced air flow, cooling the steel and removal of the saw dust.

If you are running appropriate set, the air is driven through the log by the gullet at the speed of the band. This causes the saw dust to be sucked out of the cut. The saw dust effectively cools the gullet by spinning around the inside and spilling over the back side of the next tooth. You MUST maintain a 40% gullet fill for proper cooling and extended cutting time.

If you sharpen just the face and the back side of the tooth, you ruin the gullet integrity and destroy the performance of the band."

[LOGDOG]

Here's another link for you Cypress Sam.

http://www.suffolkmachinery.com/troubleshooting/

It has some things in there you may benefit from as well as others reading this thread in the future.

[Cypress Sam]

Thanks for all of the advice.
 Did not get to saw today.
 Found out this morning that I had to run 4500 Lf of v-groove.  Should not have taken that long but the power company was a little low
 on voltage.{ROUGH ON MY MOTORS}

 Log Dog what set are you runing on big cypress? [26"+] making 18" cants.

  Piney Woods I go right past you all the time.  My wife grew up in Lake Charles,  La.  Have to go see the inlaws.

[ladylake]

 With no problems with you lumbermate and trouble with your WM I'd check the blade  speed, I'd bet your Lumbermate is turning the  blade slower making less heat, maybe gear the WM down a bit.  Steve

[pineywoods]

Think Ladylake is right. there a 3 lumbermates close by, so I am familiar with them. The blade speed is a bit less than the mizer. Most likely some additional set would cure the problem. Stop by and visit, I'm retired and usually here. LeroyC is a couple miles up the road, full time sawyer, cuts mostly big cypress...

[Cypress Sam]

Going to try .030, .032 if another profile job does not come up.

[Magicman]

??  I just finished sawing 12,100 bf of Cypress using WM sharpened 10° blades.  I ran about 4 gallons of water with 2 oz. of Cascade per gallon each day.  There was never a blade heating issue.

[Cypress Sam]

Kinda startin feal stuuuuuupid!!!!
Did not have this problem till i started cutin these 14, 16, 18" boards.

[tyb525]

Before ya'll start bashing Woodmizer and favoring another saw company, maybe do a real good check of your mill setup. Sometimes alignment problem aren't obvious until you start trying to cut wide boards. What lube are you using?

Even WM states using too much lube in dry wood will cause the wood fibers to swell and rub the blade more, causing friction. I have found the same myself. I was once cutting a very old, dry walnut log. I was having to saw very slow, and I thought it was a matter of not enough blade lube (water and soap). Cranking it way up didn't help. I found a sweet spot, just enough of a drip to keep it clean and lubricated, and I was able to cut as fast as normal without excess blade heat. Also note, excess blade lube will soak the sawdust in the gullet to the point where it is no longer carried out of the log, but sticks on the cant/board.

[Cypress Sam]

Not blastin WoodMizer love my little saw.  The problem is most likely a loose nut holding the speed control.  I an just tryin to figure out what I am doing wrong.  I have wished that I had named this pos Help blades getting hot in wide cypress.  I don't want to ofend anyone and I will keep using WM BLADES.  Might just be a diferent wm blade.

Sam

[LOGDOG]

Cypress Sam ...

Starting at .030/.032 you should be in good shape. I've run more set depending on which mill I was running at the time, what I was cutting, and which blades I was running.

I did think about this overnight though. In your original post you mentioned you didn't have trouble with your Lumbermate making these cuts and that did bring to mind possible speed differences. Whether it's blade speed or feed speed.

Don't feel bad. You can get your mill to saw straight and cool, even in those big logs, and even though you might not have the horsepower a bigger mill does. Once you get your blades set up right you'll be in good shape. We'll be pullin for ya. 

[ladylake]

 As all mills are basically the same  blade speed is the only difference I could figure between his Lumbermate and WM and that sure is not saying to get a Lumbermate , I,d try a smaller drive pulley on the WM.  With higher blade speed you have less torque at the blade and will lug the motor sooner most likely resulting in slower feed rates causing heat.  Cutting smaller logs the higher blade speed will cut faster, it's a trade off just like chain saws.  Most every time I gear the chain speed down a saw will cut faster in big wood while losing a bit when limbing.  Steve

[Cypress Sam]

Now if the sun would just come up so I can go to work and try this>

[terrifictimbersllc]

Now if the sun would just come up >

there's a lot of experience here, but....

[LOGDOG]

 As all mills are basically the same  blade speed is the only difference I could figure between his Lumbermate and WM and that sure is not saying to get a Lumbermate , I,d try a smaller drive pulley on the WM.  With higher blade speed you have less torque at the blade and will lug the motor sooner most likely resulting in slower feed rates causing heat.  Cutting smaller logs the higher blade speed will cut faster, it's a trade off just like chain saws.  Most every time I gear the chain speed down a saw will cut faster in big wood while losing a bit when limbing.  Steve

Man ... don't go changin' drive pulleys. That WoodMizer will cut just the way it is designed to. Make sure your drive belt is tight enough so you're not getting any slippage, put a razor sharp, well set blade on there and don't feed it too fast. You should be good to go.

[ladylake]

 
 It sure isn't going to hurt trying a $50 or so pulley,  you can always put the old on back on. My blade speed is quite a bit slower after I put the diesel on my mill with the same pulley as the 3600 RPM gas motor had vs the 3100 RPM diesel, It saws about twice as fast with the diesel .  Steve

[Cypress Sam]

Only got  to cut one 14" cant. Blades did fine.  Now I am cutting 2x6 to make t&g for a timber frame roof sheath. I will have to wait untill the next order to see how the new set works out on some larger footage.

Sam

[Magicman]

Keep us informed.  Followup answers and solutions help everyone with future questions