Author Topic: Wavy Cuts w/photos (Read 2611 times)

ssgerken · « **on:** February 02, 2012, 08:28:51 pm »

Hey everybody,
I've had my mill set up for a few weeks now (woodland mills 126) and just cant quite get everything set just right. When I cut wide boards/cants, I get pretty wavy cuts. I've read over many articles on here and have tried about everything mentioned. Today I put on a new blade (lennox brand not sure about anything else, it's just what they recomended when I bought the mill), and tried cutting a 24" pine log. I went extra slow being carefull not to bog down the engine at all. I still ended up with a wavy cant. I have not been around much rough cut lumber, is some variation in the boards acceptable or should they be very accurate? Please see attatched photos.

I also emailed Neil at woodland mills and am awaiting his reply. Thanks in advance for all your help.
Steve
Woodland Mills HM126

ssgerken · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:33:16 pm »

Ok so looking at my post the 2nd picture is kind of decieving. The cant really is not as wavy as it looks. I was just trying to show how must the blade had raised up from level with the guides. Thanks,
Steve

hackberry jake · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:41:22 pm »

I would try more set on the band if the band is clean. If the band is dirty I would change to a 1/3 bar oil and 2/3 diesel lube mix.

tyb525 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:49:17 pm »

In the 2nd picture, I can see the blade is deflecting upwards quite a bit. Make sure the mechanism that locks the head in place is working properly. Make sure your guides are properly aligned and the bolts are tight. Make sure your band is tight using the flutter test, it is tight when it doesnt flutter at full speed.

pineywoods · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2012, 09:19:03 pm »

Are you saying it saws OK on small logs? It appears the blade tried to climb out the top of the log. Usually an indication of not enough set, or dull blade, or both. cutting big pine, you need a minimum of 25 thou set, 30 is even better. Unless you specify otherwise, new blades normally won't have nearly enough. Blade tension has to be correct, or maybe a bit on the tight side. The blade guides need to apply a bit of down pressure on the band.

My bet is a good sharp blade with 30 thou set will cure the problem...

ssgerken · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2012, 09:26:23 pm »

Thanks for the repays. How do I know how much set the blades have? What do they come with if you don't specify? I will be using a sharpening service, so this is all new to me. Thanks,
Steve

pineywoods · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2012, 09:51:13 pm »

Quote from: ssgerken on February 02, 2012, 09:26:23 pm

How do I know how much set the blades have?

Beg, borrow or steal a dial calipher. Measure the thickness of the band body. Most are .035, .042, or .045. On a small mill, most likely .035. Then measure the thickness of the band plus one of the bent (set) teeth. The difference in the 2 measurements is the amount of set. Don't have a setter ? go here setter]=http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,50749.msg732898.html#msg732898]setter

ladylake · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2012, 07:01:49 am »

I'll agree with more set, for sure if the logs are dried out some. I think most new blades come with around 22 thousands set. Steve

taw6243 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:55:05 am »

get the tooth set gauge from woodmizer

http://www.woodmizerblades.com/maintenance/ToothSetGauge.aspx

Part number 060490
$99.99

Tim

Meadows Miller · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:00:40 am »

Gday

the fellas have covered your problem I reckon and a side clearance gauge comes in handy

with setting ill add a cheap way to do it is get a good ole heavy hand held handsaw setter I did my bands with one of them for years without a drama in the world I found it in the shed the other day and im utting my old auto sharpener back together and giving it a spruce up this week

Regards Chris

tcsmpsi · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:48:58 am »

24" wide cut is a lot for a small mill. I see you mentioned you slowed 'way down'. Not sure what you mean by that, but if the pine is pretty knotty or has a lot of resin, you need a lot of lube and very slow cutting. Even with a fresh blade, you may have to hold the mill back some, for those 'soft to hard' wood cuts can get your blade the 'wrong direction' and seemingly (engine sound/feel) cutting fine...until it gets way off. Blade tension is especially critical in cutting wide cuts. I live with the blades I get, as I do not sharpen and set my band blades.

sgschwend · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:12:53 pm »

Another indicator is what the saw does when exiting the cut. Does is drop or raise? It should not do either.

The picture doesn't show your guides, how are they setup and adjust to be level? Many folks have found that deflecting the saw down slightly with the inside guide improves the cut.

Finally are you using the saw manufacture's recommendation for tension?

I know you said you were going extras slow but, is the wave the same across the log or deeper in the middle? If deeper then your saw is not tensioned correctly or your saw is too low of beam strength and is curving backwards in the cut.

NeilB · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:33:15 pm »

Quote from: ssgerken on February 02, 2012, 08:28:51 pm

Hey everybody,
I've had my mill set up for a few weeks now (woodland mills 126) and just cant quite get everything set just right. When I cut wide boards/cants, I get pretty wavy cuts. I've read over many articles on here and have tried about everything mentioned. Today I put on a new blade (lennox brand not sure about anything else, it's just what they recomended when I bought the mill), and tried cutting a 24" pine log. I went extra slow being carefull not to bog down the engine at all. I still ended up with a wavy cant. I have not been around much rough cut lumber, is some variation in the boards acceptable or should they be very accurate? Please see attatched photos.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

I also emailed Neil at woodland mills and am awaiting his reply. Thanks in advance for all your help.
Steve
Woodland Mills HM126

Hi Steve,

Josh emailed you today with regards to this. It looks like your blade tension is much too loose. Don't be shy with the "T" handle blade tensioner.

Read over his suggestions and give us a shout if you have any questions. Josh is out this afternoon, but back after 6:00 if you want to call...

Thanks,
Neil

Bogue Chitto · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2012, 04:55:01 pm »

I had the same problem. I would go in the log say at 4" and it would rise to 5" on a 8' log. I thought it was the mill. After about a month of of adjusting this and that on the mill it turned out to be the new blades. The blades were set wrong.

Dave VH · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2012, 05:14:24 pm »

when my mill was doing that just a couple of weeks ago, it was because the blade kept running down on the shoulder of the guide wheels. the angle was a bit more extreme, it was because the band wheels weren't pichted right.

Meadows Miller · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2012, 05:16:01 pm »

A Mill Is Only As Good As Its Saw I say

I had $150k mills that would cut like a pig because the owner got cheap with the saws

swampbuggy · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2012, 06:26:25 pm »

As a noob to this sawmill stuff there is so much to learn. Piney's statement on offset got me to thinking and researching and calling around and looking..you get the picture. So I discovered this about my blades.
1. My blades have a 3 blade set meaning they go left offset, right offset, neutral, and then repeat.
2. My offset is 1/2 the blade thickness meaning that I use a blade that is .35 and each offset is .17 giving the total blade cut of .70.
3. When I find my cuts to be wavy it is time to sharpen and tighten the blade.

Since mine is a hobby mill and my blades don't spin at 100 miles an hour, I take it slow.

Am I suppose to have more of an offset as Piney suggests?

Just asking. Swamp

customsawyer · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2012, 06:52:46 pm »

I don't know if this applies here but if it is a brand new mill your drive belt might need to be tightened. If the belt is a little loose the blade speed will slow down in the wider cuts.

hamish · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2012, 07:17:40 pm »

The bands you have, only have a set of 0.019" per side, as Pineywoods suggested increase you set........0.023 to start and go from there (as you have a lower hp motor). To check you set just use a cheap dial caliper, does the same thing as the fancy $100 tooth set gauge.

Band tension is most likely low, Lenox run about 20-25000 psi.

ssgerken · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2012, 07:22:53 pm »

Thanks everyone for all the replies. Josh from woodland mills just called me and his thought as many of you have suggested is to go with a little more tension. We are about to get 8 to 12 Inches of snow so it may be a day or two before I get to try it out. This forum is a great wealth of knowledge and I appreciate everyones replys. Thanks again,
Steve

pineywoods · « **Reply #20 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:04:18 pm »

Need to clarify a few things. I made the recommendation about more set based on some assumptions. This appears to be a new mill, so I would assume all adjustments are still set per factory specs. If not, yes there are other things that can cause wavey cuts. In particular, blade guide adjustments, and band tension. Then there is sap buildup on the blade. This has the effect of making the blade thicker, and less effective set. Soapy water, lots of it on pine...I have learned the hard way, when things go wrong, make sure it's not the blade before you go tweakin on the mill.

OH yeah, the handsaw setter tool would work fine on a .035 blade.

terrifictimbersllc · « **Reply #21 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:16:00 pm »

Over about 12 " wide in knotty softwood is one of the most challenging cuts to keep flat (for me anyway). Slowing down may not help, Woodmizer lists going too slow as one of the possible sources of wavy lumber. One thing not mentioned can be loss of tension if your blade is heating up. I"m always watching my tension gauge and if it is dropping the first thing I wonder about is blade lube flow, maybe nozzles getting clogged. Regarding set, the 10 degree woodmizer blades I use (1-1/4", .045) come set at 26 thousandths. One way out of the problem which can still be pretty fast, is to break down the log a bit oversize with some wide cuts then produce your finished lumber with narrower cuts which are easier to produce flat lumber with.

Jim_Rogers · « **Reply #22 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:59:28 pm »

Steve:
Another thing, but I'm not sure if it will apply to you or not. Sometimes the blade is going through frozen wood and sometimes it's going through non frozen wood. In the wintertime this can effect the blade, at least in my opinion.

Sawing wide lumber is always a challenge with band mills.

Good luck with your research and hopefully you'll figure it out.

Jim Rogers

rbarshaw · « **Reply #23 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:20:16 pm »

Also make sure you don't have anything on the mill contacting the teeth on one side, causes the set to be lost/reduced which causes the blade to rise or dive in the cut, all it takes is light contact with the teeth to cause this.

DGK · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:35:34 am »

I have an LT40 with the 28hp Kohler. Using the woodmizer 7 deg. .045 blade set around .028, plus running lube, I still find sawing wider than 12" in Sitka Spruce, it is easy to get wavy cuts. I think it is a combination of set, tension, speed, sharpness, heat and blade flex. I have used the 0.55 7 degree and it was better in the wide cuts but the blades would break too easily. I am wondering if I left all of the above the same and had more horsepower, would there be any difference in the wider cuts?

Chuck White · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2012, 08:28:45 am »

DGK, I think spruce gives everyone fits!

I've sawn quite a lot of White Spruce and it would get wavy quickly so that meant change the blade about twice as often.

Good set and sharp blade under heavy tension is what I've found to be best.

DGK · « **Reply #26 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:39:45 pm »

Hi Chuck,

I am happy to hear that I am not on my own in the world of sawing spruce. I agree with your comment "Good set and sharp blade under heavy tension is what I've found to be best.". Any thoughts on power?

Chuck White · « **Reply #27 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:47:03 pm »

power?

If you're talking about engine horse power, my Onan is 24 hp.

If you're talking about the feed power/speed, I'd suggest don't push it to the point where it starts to bog your engine down.

The knots in any log are very hard compared to the rest of the wood, so go at a speed that doesn't hit the knots too fast.

DGK · « **Reply #28 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:49:54 pm »

Chuck,

I am talking engine horsepower. Just wondering how this affects the ability to cut wide in difficult woods like spruce :-)

Chuck White · « **Reply #29 on:** February 04, 2012, 05:09:14 pm »

The horse power definately makes a difference!

I have sawn W/Spruce on my FIL's '92 LT40G18 (manual mill 18hp) and then I got my own, a '95 LT40HDG24 (hyd.mill 24hp), and you wouldn't think 6 more hp would make much difference, but you are adding 1/3 more horse power.

HP make a difference

terrifictimbersllc · « **Reply #30 on:** February 04, 2012, 05:54:57 pm »

I'm at 42 HP and never felt at a disadvantage for making wavy lumber.

WDH · « **Reply #31 on:** February 04, 2012, 10:40:20 pm »

I cut some 12" wide 1 1/16" thick SYP today and no wavy cuts! There were not many knots, though.

FeltzE · « **Reply #32 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:13:34 am »

Digital Calipers are available from Harbor freight or Rockler tools for around $20. You can zero the caliper on the blade body then open to the edge of the set tooth to measure the set. Not perfect but works good.

Are you always deflecting (initially) in the same direction? If so recheck the guides and alignment

Are you always departing the log running high or lower than the natural run of the blade? If so check the guide alignment.

In Knotty, dry, wide pine increase set to .025 to .030. If your saw cut is totally free of sawdust when you clear the cut, you aren't set wide enough. You should have some sawdust on your boards. IF you have packed sawdust left on your boards then you have too much set. Using that information alone you can increase set without ever looking at a caliper or dial indicator for actual set.

Pitch stuck to the blade body will cause blade deflection, increase lubrication rate. Add pinesol and more soap to your solution.

Lastly go slower through large knots than clear wood.

Resharpen more often.

Eric

FeltzE · « **Reply #33 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:18:17 am »

Quote

I cut some 12" wide 1 1/16" thick SYP today and no wavy cuts! There were not many knots, though.

WDH - I often cut large knotty too dry pine, it sucks to cut. I have to cut slowly and resharpen often, and I consume alot of lube along the way. Last week I recieved a customers truckload of GRADE LOGS! Cut 1 day earlier, what a joy to saw!!!

. It reminds me that you can make good production numbers with a 1 1/2 inch saw, running your helper ragged!

Eric

Full Circle · « **Reply #34 on:** February 05, 2012, 08:06:58 am »

This has been a very informative thread. Spruce has been hit-or-miss for me from a wavy cut perspective. I'll try re-setting a few blades (10 degree) next time. I read another thread and I believe it was Bibbyman who mentioned cutting from the small end of the log can help with spruce, too.

Thanks.

bugdust · « **Reply #35 on:** February 05, 2012, 08:49:36 am »

I just finished sawing 8/4 eastern hemlock that ended straight and true, but I could see a slight wave over most of the knots. Since the framing was for my shed I didn't sacrifice speed and not concerned about the waves. But, if sawing for a customer I would be more careful of trying to produce better results by changing blades more often. A sharp blade, steady speed, and proper tension has a major effect of quality cuts.

HaroldSiefke · « **Reply #36 on:** February 09, 2012, 09:28:42 pm »

I will be receiving my woodland hm126 mill on Thursday. I'm pretty stoked, I was wondering if you got your wavy cut figured out? I ordered cook's duratooth supersharp blades. I will post how it cuts with these bad boys. The price is $175 for pack of ten compared to $225 for lennox blades. I'm also looking into the ripper 37 found a dealer in Spokane WA. These are suppose to be top of the line but spendy.

ssgerken · « **Reply #37 on:** February 09, 2012, 09:51:50 pm »

Harold,
Congrats on your mill purchase. Josh called me from woodland mills the other night and gave me some things to try to make it better. We got 12" of wet snow on saturday and since I work for the Power Company, we have been kind of busy, so I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Let me know how the cook blades work. I'm curious to find out. Congrats again on your purchase and welcome to the forum!

WDH · « **Reply #38 on:** February 09, 2012, 09:53:12 pm »

Harold,

Welcome to the Forum. You are going to love sawing wood. It is all the toting and stacking that is a challenge

.

Magicman · « **Reply #39 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:02:47 pm »

Welcome to the Forestry Forum HaroldSiefke. Congratulations on the sawmill purchase. Are you planning to have Cook resharpen your blades?

hamish · « **Reply #40 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:12:29 pm »

Quote from: HaroldSiefke on February 09, 2012, 09:28:42 pm

The price is $175 for pack of ten compared to $225 for lennox blades. I'm also looking into the ripper 37 found a dealer in Spokane WA. These are suppose to be top of the line but spendy.

Congrats on your new mill, where are you located? US or Canada and where, Lenox bands can be had at more value, and the Ripper37 is a very impressive band, which i can get from two diffent sources withing four hours of me and the price at one place is near double the price of the other...............pays to shop around.

kelLOGg · « **Reply #41 on:** February 10, 2012, 06:58:49 am »

Quote from: sgschwend on February 03, 2012, 01:12:53 pm

Another indicator is what the saw does when exiting the cut. Does is drop or raise? It should not do either.

I get this problem when sawing wide (18") oak boards. Starts out with no drop upon exit and the last cut the band drops maybe 1/8". Is this caused by set changing more on one side than another?
Bob

HaroldSiefke · « **Reply #42 on:** February 10, 2012, 11:05:12 am »

Hey guys thanks for the welcome. I've been milling with a alaskan mk3 for years. This mill should ease my work load a ton.No I'm not planing on using the Cook's sharpening program. I'm going to build all my sharpening and setting tools. So if any one has any good pictures they would be great. I'm located in Montana. What sort of price you getting Ripper 37 for? I have not called the dealer in Spokane yet. Thanks again guys for the welcome.

nrp0450 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 27, 2012, 06:12:01 pm »

Did the wavy cuts issue ever get resolved? I'm very interested in this mill.

duaneb · « **Reply #44 on:** March 27, 2012, 09:26:36 pm »

Quote from: ssgerken on February 02, 2012, 08:28:51 pm

Hey everybody,
I've had my mill set up for a few weeks now (woodland mills 126) and just cant quite get everything set just right. When I cut wide boards/cants, I get pretty wavy cuts. I've read over many articles on here and have tried about everything mentioned. Today I put on a new blade (lennox brand not sure about anything else, it's just what they recomended when I bought the mill), and tried cutting a 24" pine log. I went extra slow being carefull not to bog down the engine at all. I still ended up with a wavy cant. I have not been around much rough cut lumber, is some variation in the boards acceptable or should they be very accurate? Please see attatched photos.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

I also emailed Neil at woodland mills and am awaiting his reply. Thanks in advance for all your help.
Steve
Woodland Mills HM126
On your second picture, it looks exactly how my hombuilt mill is doing right now.....this thread is giving me a lot of things to try. Please post your results and how you get the problem corrected and I will do the same.

duaneb

FeltzE · « **Reply #45 on:** March 30, 2012, 08:54:29 am »

duaneb: How fast is "slow" just because the engine doesn't bog down dosn't mean your going slow. I can vouch that it's a rare occasion I can get my 35hp wisconson engine to bog at all on an 1 1.2inch blade especially in a wide cut,

I've seen cut rates of 20'/min but knotty wide pine it could drop to 3-6'/min Maximum.

I've recently reset my sharpener to run a 7 degree hook angle which seems to make for better cutting in the knotty logs as the knots are so hard. (harder wood = lower hook angle)

barbender · « **Reply #46 on:** March 30, 2012, 10:41:36 am »

Don't underestimate the need to keep your blade clean in pine, if you get much pitch build up it can make your blade overheat and go all over, just keep a squirt bottle with diesel handy. Give the blade a few squirts when you start to get pitch build up.

News:

Author Topic: Wavy Cuts w/photos (Read 2611 times)